395: Big Lebowski -- game is dead :(

[Masterchief]

Vote: Masterchief

for no reason at all other then random.org.

Yeah right.

Vote: Fircoal

[Fircoal]

IT was the truth

unvote: Mastercheif

[big_kahunia]

Hello all!
I am extremely suspicious of chaotic_diablo and Colonel Kurtz for the following logic.
They had posts in other threads before confirming here. Let me set this up.

The time of Sherlock’s first post: December 23, 2006, 8:23.am (PST).

The above time is the key to my logic.

The reason, I believe it is scummy of them is because stalling gives them more time to talk. The mod didn’t set a limit for the amount of time to confirm, so the mafia won’t confirm right away so they have more time to talk and strategize. They got their roles and yet didn’t confirm when they had ample chance. They must be mafia.

Colonel K didn’t confirm on 12/24/06 at 10:55pm when he posted in mini 389 (also in coney isle) at same time. He says he hadn’t had internet. But he posted on the 24th and the 25th and the 30th, before confirming on the 31st. I don’t doubt you have been having home internet problems, but why the need to tell us about it when you could posted sooner? And why do you stall the game?

chaotic_diablo also, had a post in ny on the 24th, 2:21pm (after Sherlock’s post), but didn’t confirm until December 26, 2006, 10:42.am. He had eight other posts (all games btw) before he confirmed here, some on each day from the 23rd and 26th. Why would he wait 3 days to confirm, when he could have confirmed right away?

>>>>>>>>>
Everyone (save Scalebane) confirmed right away without stalling. By right away, I mean no posts in other games/threads before logging out and beginning a new session. Here is the evidence:

StallingChamp’s last post was Dec 23rd, 3:25am, then he confirms in his next post on scum. Fircoal replaced SC.

I confirm very soon after (no place else between confirming post and Sherlock’s post).

PlaysWithSquirrels doesn’t post anywhere but here after Sherlock’s post.

Atticus makes one post, after Sherlock’s opening post, in MeMeMeet maf on the 24th. But he confirms 2 minutes later here. I don’t consider that blatantly stalling the game like chaotic_diablo and Colonel Kurtz do.

willows_weep’s last post was on dec 18, 7:18am; then in her next post on mafiascum, she confirms here.

Riktus’s last post was on dec 22, 1:13pm, then his very next post is here to confirm on the 25th.

Lazarusmoth’s last post was on dec 22, 2:57am. Then he confirms here and in another game on the 26th, his next log in time.


Kirbyphreak’s last post was on dec 20, 12:57pm. Then in his next post, he confirms here.

Warpdragon’s last post was on dec 22, 5:06pm (in v/la thread, no access until dec 31). His next post was confirmation here.

Scalebane’s last post was on nov 30, 8:00am, and he needed replaced by Masterchief.
I’m not sure about Masterchief/Scalebane. Scalebane’s absence doesn’t make him scum by trying to stall the game, because he hasn’t posted anywhere since Nov 30th (not even in his own game mini389).
>>>>>>>>

As you all can see, by this logic, CK and CD must be scum.

I will

vote: chaotic_diablo

, b/c he already has a vote. By himself ironically.

[lazarusmoth]

vote: Colonel Kurtz

[Colonel Kurtz]

No, big_kahunia, you see, the reason why I haven't been posting is long, boring, and definitely WOULD stall the game because it has nothing to do with mafia. Your assertion that I am scum because I am paying some attention to the game I am moderating rather than others is baseless, stupid, and harmful to the game, and I will explain why it is incorrect using one fact:

Fact: Mafia can only talk at night

If I was in the mafia, I would have to be breaking the rules of the game to strategize with my mafia budd y/ies. The purpose of a Day start is that the mafia cannot act before there is any voting, so they have no more time to strategize than the town has to figure out who they are.

So basically, it seems to me that your argument is that I must be mafia because I clearly was cheating.

Right....

vote big_kahunia

for wildly grasping at straws.

[riktus]

Hmmm. I think any kind of reliance on big kahunia's observations would be foolish, but they are an interesting place to start.

Fact: Mafia can only talk at night

- I can't swear to it without going back and looking, but I'm pretty sure I've played in a game where there is no Night 0 but mafia have the opportunity to talk - and it certainly doesn't seem out of the question in a mini game.

[riktus]

I can now swear to it: in Newbie 220 I was mafia and allowed to talk pregame as well as a night. The rules make no specific provision that mafia will only be allowed to talk at night that I can see, and as such I find your defense in this point at best lacking or at worst downright incriminating (if you know the specifics of when this mafia is allowed to communicate )
As for a day start being to prevent any mafia strategy head-start, I imagine it is more to stop people being killed before they have started playing where we only have 12 players - a night start could easily chop that down to 9 before anyone has said a word. Pre-game communication seems feasible to me.

unvote, vote Colonel_Kurtz

[Colonel Kurtz]

Well I've never been in a game where that is possible, so pardon me.

It seems to me that general practice is that mafia can only confer at night. In fact, I know that is general practice.

This is what the game gets its name from; obviously, it's the most important role and is in just about every game.

The Mafia know each other and can talk to each other

at night

. Each night, they choose a victim from the rest of the players. When day breaks, the victim is dead. The goal for the Mafia is to survive while killing everyone else in town.

It seems to me that saying "oh, well obviously the mafia are allowed to talk at night if there's a day start because we did it in this one game" then you are using an exception as a rule.

Proof by example (also known as inappropriate generalisation) is a logical fallacy whereby one or more examples are claimed as "proof" for a more general statement.

This fallacy has the following argument form:

I know that x X has the property P.
Therefore, all other elements of X have the property P.
The following example demonstrates why this is a logical fallacy:

I've seen a person shoot someone.
Therefore, all people are murderers.

Your argument is
In Newbie 220, the mafia was allowed to talk before Day 1 when there was no night
therefore in this game the mafia would be allowed to do the same
oh, and that means you're scum

In summary: no.

[Colonel Kurtz]

I realize that my tone there might have come off as being kind of harsh, I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk about this, but I think you should just reexamine your arguments, because they don't make logical sense.

[riktus]

It was not intended as proof by example, more as disproving your statement:

Fact: Mafia can only talk at night

My argument is that this is NOT a fact, and I have given an example of this. I quite agree that the usual practise is that mafia can only talk at night, I just wanted to make clear that it wasn't a cast iron defense (or indeed, a fact )

You may want to take a reread of my posts, as at no point did I intend to infer "oh, well obviously the mafia are allowed to talk at night if there's a day start because we did it in this one game", instead just say that it IS a possibility and should not be discounted. I hope that this was a case of misconstruing my arguments rather than deliberately manipulating them.

My argument actually is:
Your defense is mafia can only talk at night
I have a counter-example, whereby mafia could talk pre-game
Therefore your defense does not stand up - there is a

possibility

that mafia could talk pregame. Further, I suggest that the mini game is a set up more likely for it to occur than in a larger game.
Oh, and that means you might possibly be scum


But you didn't come off as a jerk

[willows_weep]

Wow, lots of random voting going on. I'm going to abstain.

That was a lot of searching around B_k. So far no one strikes me in any way. But its nice to check out the responses going around (I've never played a game where mafia could speak before day 1)

[Fircoal]

There have been some good points but I don't know Colonel Kurtz is scum, since he believes so strongly, in having the rules be the way, they are, it shows that he might not be scum, and that he wouldn't do that.

[warpdragon]

How much can scum really accomplish without any previous days or abilities to use? The connection is interesting, but I think it could be placed on the back burner until later in the game. Logically, I find Riktus's argument more legitimate, however, I do not think his conclusions warrant action. On the other hand, day one bandwagons are fun.

Vote Colonel Kurtz

[Sherlock]

Vote Count

, powered by The Count-Counter 2000

Colonel Kurtz- 3 (lazarusmoth, riktus, warpdragon)
chaotic_diablo- 2 (chaotic_diablo, big_kahunia)
big_kahunia- 1 (Colonel Kurtz)
fircoal- 1 (masterchief)

Not voting (5): atticus, kirbyphreak, Playswithsquirrels, fircoal, willows_weep

7 to lynch.

[chaotic_diablo]

chaotic_diablo also, had a post in ny on the 24th, 2:21pm (after Sherlock’s post), but didn’t confirm until December 26, 2006, 10:42.am. He had eight other posts (all games btw) before he confirmed here, some on each day from the 23rd and 26th. Why would he wait 3 days to confirm, when he could have confirmed right away?

Simple, I forgot. I have other games to play, therefore my attention will be on those games, not on one that is still in the confirmation stage. Sherlock's pm gave me a surprise since I completely forgot that I signed up for this game. Still, it slipped my mind when I went to post in my other games. When I remembered, that's when I immediately went to confirm.

The reason, I believe it is scummy of them is because stalling gives them more time to talk. The mod didn’t set a limit for the amount of time to confirm, so the mafia won’t confirm right away so they have more time to talk and strategize. They got their roles and yet didn’t confirm when they had ample chance. They must be mafia.

Although it makes sense, it's still baseless. Your argument only holds in a limited fahion if you are correct that the "stalling" took place. Since opinion isn't evidence, it is questionable whether "stalling" was intended. There is no greater chance of me intentionally stalling than simply forgetting.

Everyone (save Scalebane) confirmed right away without stalling. By right away, I mean no posts in other games/threads before logging out and beginning a new session. Here is the evidence:

The evidence on the other players only include the things that you can document. While it's true that they did not post since Dec23, that doesn't mean they haven't been on the site. It just means they simply haven't posted. As a result, it can be predicted that those people will post and contribute the least.

[chaotic_diablo]

Sorry, I'll fix the problems.

The reason, I believe it is scummy of them is because stalling gives them more time to talk. The mod didn’t set a limit for the amount of time to confirm, so the mafia won’t confirm right away so they have more time to talk and strategize. They got their roles and yet didn’t confirm when they had ample chance. They must be mafia.

Although it makes sense, it's still baseless. Your argument only holds in a limited fahion if you are correct that the "stalling" took place. Since opinion isn't evidence, it is questionable whether "stalling" was intended. There is no greater chance of me intentionally stalling than simply forgetting.

Everyone (save Scalebane) confirmed right away without stalling. By right away, I mean no posts in other games/threads before logging out and beginning a new session. Here is the evidence:

The evidence on the other players only include the things that you can document. While it's true that they did not post since Dec23, that doesn't mean they haven't been on the site. It just means they simply haven't posted. As a result, it can be predicted that those people will post and contribute the least.
_________________

[Colonel Kurtz]

I looked into the Newbie 220 setup, and IN THE RULES OF THE GAME the moderator made a concession that the mafia could talk during pregame.

This was in his listed posting of the rules

You are the mafia. You may only talk with each other during the game's "night" (and pre-game) not during the "day." You let me know before the night's deadline who will be your victim. You win the game when all the other players are dead. You have time to talk with your partner until I start the day.

Our moderator has made no such note.

Oh, and by the way, ricktus, say what you mean and mean what you say:

You may want to take a reread of my posts, as at no point did I intend to infer "oh, well obviously the mafia are allowed to talk at night if there's a day start because we did it in this one game", instead just say that it IS a possibility and should not be discounted. I hope that this was a case of misconstruing my arguments rather than deliberately manipulating them.

Oh, I did, and I see there that you're voting for me.

As for a day start being to prevent any mafia strategy head-start, I imagine it is more to stop people being killed before they have started playing where we only have 12 players - a night start could easily chop that down to 9 before anyone has said a word. Pre-game communication seems feasible to me.

unvote, vote Colonel_Kurtz

Call me old-fashioned, but to me, a vote means "I think that this person deserves to be lynched the most", not "it is a possibility that this mafia game could have had pre-game scum communications, and since that is a possibility and you had a combination of internet/holiday/life issues and didn't confirm when you were tending to your Mini, that means that you could possibly be scum so I think I'll just put a vote there on you no cause for alarm just little vote there it doesn't mean I have to make a decision on what I think about you just that you're the most scummy right now". Haven't you people heard of an FOS?
But then there's bandwaggoning...which I'm not big into, except back in the 'Nam, of course...

Basically, I have a hard time believing that you just think it's a possibility that scum could communicate pre-game, because you voted for me with that being the lone point that you have as to why I'm scum. I consider a vote to be a fairly strong action against someone, so excuse me if I misunderstood your intent.

[Fircoal]

Colonel Kurtz brings up a goint point, it might not be a fault of a scummy trick, but because of forgetfullness, or laziness, or lack of internet connection(Which I doubt) ANyway, he may be scum he may not, it isn't that high of proof.

[chaotic_diablo]

I feel that Colonel isn't making a point at all. In the rules for this game post 15, it states the basic conduct of how town should go about lynching someone. However, the last paragraph states that specific roles may legally violate a rule. In that case, the specifics on what a role can or cannot do may only be found on the role. For example, there certainly isn't a rule that states that choices must be sent at night, so we can expect a dayvig/kill if that role exists.

[Colonel Kurtz]

This?

1) Do not discuss the game outside of the thread.

Certain roles may allow some of the above rules to be circumvented, as specifically indicated. (I don’t think I’m revealing too much by saying that a role exists which allows rule 1 to be broken.) If you feel a mistake has been made or you’re just not sure about something, feel free to PM.

That more than likely just means we have masons, or the moderator is reminding everyone that the mafia can talk at night.

[riktus]

I think it's easier to address your points by quoting them first, sorry for the oversized post ...

I looked into the Newbie 220 setup, and IN THE RULES OF THE GAME the moderator made a concession that the mafia could talk during pregame.

This was in his listed posting of the rules

You are the mafia. You may only talk with each other during the game's "night" (and pre-game) not during the "day." You let me know before the night's deadline who will be your victim. You win the game when all the other players are dead. You have time to talk with your partner until I start the day.

Our moderator has made no such note.

My bad, I had missed that the mod put the note out with the rules - I only reread my role PM. Doesn't alter the point really though - which was that it is not necessarily FACT that mafia cannot talk pregame.

Oh, and by the way, ricktus, say what you mean and mean what you say:

You may want to take a reread of my posts, as at no point did I intend to infer "oh, well obviously the mafia are allowed to talk at night if there's a day start because we did it in this one game", instead just say that it IS a possibility and should not be discounted. I hope that this was a case of misconstruing my arguments rather than deliberately manipulating them.

Well, I didnt say that the mafia are allowed to talk at night if there's a day start because we did it in this one game, I challenged your statement of fact. Perhaps my choice of phrasing in the first place was a little unclear, but again all I'm trying to say is that

it is a possibility

.

Oh, I did, and I see there that you're voting for me.

As for a day start being to prevent any mafia strategy head-start, I imagine it is more to stop people being killed before they have started playing where we only have 12 players - a night start could easily chop that down to 9 before anyone has said a word. Pre-game communication seems feasible to me.

unvote, vote Colonel_Kurtz

Call me old-fashioned, but to me, a vote means "I think that this person deserves to be lynched the most", not "it is a possibility that this mafia game could have had pre-game scum communications, and since that is a possibility and you had a combination of internet/holiday/life issues and didn't confirm when you were tending to your Mini, that means that you could possibly be scum so I think I'll just put a vote there on you no cause for alarm just little vote there it doesn't mean I have to make a decision on what I think about you just that you're the most scummy right now". Haven't you people heard of an FOS?
But then there's bandwaggoning...which I'm not big into, except back in the 'Nam, of course...

Basically, I have a hard time believing that you just think it's a possibility that scum could communicate pre-game, because you voted for me with that being the lone point that you have as to why I'm scum. I consider a vote to be a fairly strong action against someone, so excuse me if I misunderstood your intent.

1. My vote was in relation to you stating as fact something which I proved to be false, far more than it had anything to do with whether you had actually been talking pregame. My whole point is that your defense by stating that scum cannot talk pregame as fact is erroneous - I'm not saying they can, I'm saying they MIGHT be able to. Circumvention of rule 1 may well relate to masons, or mafia talking at night - it most likely does - but nothing explicitly precludes pregame mafia communication.
2. You had one vote on you at that time. Seven are needed to lynch. Coupled with the fact that I was voting for a different reason to the first vote (although I didn't explicitly state that) I don't see it as bandwaggoning. Votes always fly around a lot at the start of day 1, I am happy using mine to generate some discussion.

[Colonel Kurtz]

I was referring to warpdragon's "bandwagons are fun" comment with the bandwagoning thing.
You can call a vote whatever you want, but it's still a statement that you think that person is the most lynch-worthy. And since you're being flaky about the pre-game communication issue, I actually fail to see *why* you are still voting for me at this point.
And it still is a fact that in the generally accepted rules of mafia, scum can only communicate at night; you have failed to actually disprove that it isn't a rule unless otherwise noted.

[chaotic_diablo]

Circumvention of Rule 1 only states that certain roles may talk outside the thread. It does not state when or how. My guess is that the specifics are in the role. In addition, this is a mini theme game, so the usual

accepted

rules may or may not apply.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Those rules also weren't written specifically for this game, they were stolen from another moderator and our's is using it because he likes the way they are worded. In addition to that, the person that he stole the rules from admits to them being entirely plagurized.

[willows_weep]

Ok.
Is it only me that finds it the slightest bit odd that as a first attack on day one, is based on 1 player stalking every other player?

I would have figured that someone would have wondered if there was anything behind a player self voting as their first action of the day.

Though b_k, how is it that you began to investigate that specific track?
It's just a bit odd to me, to be away all weekend then have that be your first day 1 post.

I'm all for checking out vibes. And maybe I am just not 'getting' it just yet. But say mafia were chatting before D1 started (in any game), why would they be seriously limited by the time they confirmed in an already stalled thread. They had time.

I see that mod posted on a Saturday (23) ChaoticD confirmed on the following Tuesday 26th, and ColonelK followed that Sunday 31st. If both are in cahoots and colonel posted around the site all week, why would he only come forth on Sunday, 2 days after people posted about how slow things were going (b_k noted that Ck posted on the 30th) (though I do wonder about that odd excuse of not having internet to even do a confirm)

Ah, I did miss mafia and the 'debates' that occur on the use of wording .