Newbie 310: It's All Over -- WOO-HOO!

[MeMe]

Vote Count

:

Azkar

(2):

VitaminR, theopor_COD

Fircoal

(1):

Thesp

Seol

(1):

Avinyl

Thesp

(1):

Seol

theopor_COD

(1):

Fircoal

not voting

(1):

Azkar

Four'll do it.

[VitaminR]

I voted Theopor_Cod, because he put Azkar at -1, and a newbie, but to you it may not seem like much of a problem but it stood out more to me. If we allow people to put someone at -1 lynch, the scum can lynch that person, making in 2:3 on the 2nd day, I don't want that to happen.

The point is that scum would give themselves away by doing that, which is not worth lynching a townie. A pro-town player should never hammer in that situation.

Btw, Azkar, what did you make of theopor's vote?

[Azkar]

Btw, Azkar, what did you make of theopor's vote?

Well it sucked, obviously

He

did

put me at 1-to-lynch, as Fircoal's pointed out, but I think that you're right that we weren't really in a lot of danger of someone hammering it on page two of the thread.

Other than that, I don't know. I guess I'd like to hear a little more from theopor. He's

convinced

I'm scum, but didn't give us more than a one sentence explanation. The fact that it's his only significant contribution to this game makes me feel like it was more bandwagoning than real conviction.

Of course, I'm biased. The vote was for me, and I don't like it when people vote for me .

[Fircoal]

I voted Theopor_Cod, because he put Azkar at -1, and a newbie, but to you it may not seem like much of a problem but it stood out more to me. If we allow people to put someone at -1 lynch, the scum can lynch that person, making in 2:3 on the 2nd day, I don't want that to happen.

The point is that scum would give themselves away by doing that, which is not worth lynching a townie. A pro-town player should never hammer in that situation.

Actually in my last newbie game, a pro-town IC lynched someone at -1, without much proof at the time, and it was Page 2. If you want the game it was Newbie: 298

[Seol]

OK, I'm going to have to apologise. I've been skimming this game but not posting, as something I do occasionally when I'm in several games and in interesting conversations in some but not others is that I end up putting all the effort into those games. Bad habit.

Fircoal is quite right about 298, I replaced into it and even though I was scum and rode it to victory I was

really

pissed off at the IC in question. Suffice to say it should never have happened, but I can understand why Fircoal would be a bit twitchy about it.

The Azkar/Fircoal thing is, I think, a mountain out of a molehill.

In any case, the connection seems so obvious that I find it difficult to come up with another explanation. There is a tendency for suspicions to polarise a group of players, but, even if that is the case, a great deal of useful information can be gleaned from encouraging that process.

I tend to think that the polarisation has come

from

VitaminR, calling the original post a "connection" was stretching but fair game for page 1, but since then it's only "obvious" because it's been talked about so much. Looks to me more like he's trying to convince us of the idea than explore it.

I don't like this comment either:

Erm... I didn't actually say anywhere that I thought it was suspicious, just that it could be seen as suspicious.

Explaining why an action "could be seen as suspicious" is as good as calling those actions suspicious in terms of its effect on other readers. It's as if you want to establish the idea and reasoning that the act was suspicious, but then distance yourself from that position. Any sort of disclaiming past statements of that sort raises my heckles.

Based on that,

unvote, vote: VitaminR

.

[Thesp]

The point is that scum would give themselves away by doing that, which is not worth lynching a townie. A pro-town player should never hammer in that situation.

Taking the step from "A pro-town player

should

never hammer" to "A pro-town player

never

hammers" is a pretty big leap. (Actually, looks like others have also harped on this.)

Hrm. I think both theopor_COD and Fircoal are most likely to be scum, but I don't think they're scum

together

. I have a stronger feeling about theopor_COD, though, the third vote is

odd

to me.

Unvote: Fircoal, Vote: theopor_COD

.

Explaining why an action "could be seen as suspicious" is as good as calling those actions suspicious in terms of its effect on other readers. It's as if you want to establish the idea and reasoning that the act was suspicious, but then distance yourself from that position. Any sort of disclaiming past statements of that sort raises my heckles.

I have a thought on this, but I want to hear VitaminR's response first.

[Azkar]

The last few posts have brought up some interesting points.

I've mostly changed my mind about my earlier suspicions on VR, but am looking forward to his response to Seol.

I think my reasons (a few posts up) differ slightly from Thesp's, but if I had to choose someone, right now, as being most suspicious, I'd lean most towards theopor. We'll see what he has to say, though.

Is Avinyl still around? The last post I remember from him mentioned internet problems ..

[Fircoal]

To me it seems that the two most scum like is Theopor_Cod, and VitaminR. Though I too, would like to hear from Avinyl.

[theopor_COD]

Btw, Azkar, what did you make of theopor's vote?

Well it sucked, obviously

He

did

put me at 1-to-lynch, as Fircoal's pointed out, but I think that you're right that we weren't really in a lot of danger of someone hammering it on page two of the thread.

Other than that, I don't know. I guess I'd like to hear a little more from theopor. He's

convinced

I'm scum, but didn't give us more than a one sentence explanation. The fact that it's his only significant contribution to this game makes me feel like it was more bandwagoning than real conviction.

Of course, I'm biased. The vote was for me, and I don't like it when people vote for me .

In hindsight maybe I was a little eager, being as mafia could have hammered, they'd pretty much sow their own death for tomorrow doing so mind.
However I still think you and Fircoal are the most obvious mafia, this earlier post just seems way over defensive to me. Vitamin almost makes a joke out of your random vote and you respond with an overly defensive post.

Feels like a "safe" post. Random.org to not be held responsible and the ultra-townie smilie with enthusiasm and reassurance that scum is the enemy.

Unvote: Seol,
Vote: Azkar

Based on very little, but it's a start.

Well, I guess if you really want to grasp at straws .. *shrug*

Seriously, though, is random.org any more a suspicious reason for voting someone than any of the other reasons offered, so far?

I guess I'll try to curb my excitement about the next game I play . I admit it, I'm an impatient person. I waited through the queue, I waited through the confirms stage, and I was just happy about getting into the game.

Anyhow I'm happy where my vote is.

[VitaminR]

The Azkar/Fircoal thing is, I think, a mountain out of a molehill.

In any case, the connection seems so obvious that I find it difficult to come up with another explanation. There is a tendency for suspicions to polarise a group of players, but, even if that is the case, a great deal of useful information can be gleaned from

encouraging

that process.

I tend to think that the polarisation has come

from

VitaminR, calling the original post a "connection" was stretching but fair game for page 1, but since then it's only "obvious" because it's been talked about so much. Looks to me more like he's trying to convince us of the idea than explore it.

(emphasis mine)

I fully admit that I have been creating the polarisation, like I attempted to indicate there. I wanted to see how Fircoal and Azkar would respond to being linked. It allows me to pressure two people at the same time.

In that, I've become reasonably convinced that Azkar is not scum (although I'm in no way sure about Fircoal, which is why I've kept my vote on Azkar).

The way Azkar has responded has been very balanced overall and I don't feel like he has reacted like scum. He hasn't tried to shift the blame or defend himself to death. I also think the manner in which he stepped away from his initial vote of me was distinctly pro-town. It is very easy to respond to an attack with an attack.

Unvote: Azkar

Explaining why an action "could be seen as suspicious" is as good as calling those actions suspicious in terms of its effect on other readers. It's as if you want to establish the idea and reasoning that the act was suspicious, but then distance yourself from that position. Any sort of disclaiming past statements of that sort raises my heckles.

It was just a response to Fircoal's question about Thesp's vote. I was trying to be responsible as an IC, because I felt like I'd just been attacking the new players rather than helping them. In hindsight, I should have indicated that I did not think it significant in that post.

The point is that scum would give themselves away by doing that, which is not worth lynching a townie. A pro-town player should never hammer in that situation.

Taking the step from "A pro-town player

should

never hammer" to "A pro-town player

never

hammers" is a pretty big leap. (Actually, looks like others have also harped on this.)

Very true, but, to a large extent, assuming that they are the same will make the latter true.

[Avinyl]

I have had problems with my internet connection, but now i am back again. I don't really know what to think, so for now i'll just

Unvote

.

[Azkar]

Last night, I had put off placing a vote until I had had more time to mull things over. I also wanted to hear back from a couple of the players in this game.

I've slept on it, and after reviewing the recent updates to this game, I still find that theopor stands out the most. I'm not really buying his latest post. I don't see VR's earlier post to be making a joke out of anything, and I doubt anyone else did. And if someone casts suspicion on me, yeah I'm going to try and explain my perspective. I don't think it would be good for anyone if I just tried to skirt the issue.

I get the feeling that theopor's found himself with some doubt cast on him, and is trying really hard to try and justify his past actions. It doesn't really seem sincere to me, though.

vote: theopor_COD

That puts theopor at lynch -1. I think we've had enough discussion here about premature hammering that I can trust no one will do so?

[VitaminR]

I don't see VR's earlier post to be making a joke out of anything, and I doubt anyone else did. And if someone casts suspicion on me, yeah I'm going to try and explain my perspective. I don't think it would be good for anyone if I just tried to skirt the issue.

I can see how it can be read as less than absolutely serious, though. The phrasing is a bit over the top ("ultra-townie smilie," for instance) and we were essentially still in the random voting stage.

I get the feeling that theopor's found himself with some doubt cast on him, and is trying really hard to try and justify his past actions. It doesn't really seem sincere to me, though.

I have to say I disagree. He explained his vote then too.

[quote="Azkar"That puts theopor at lynch -1. I think we've had enough discussion here about premature hammering that I can trust no one will do so?[/quote]
I'm definitely not going to hammer him.

Argh... now I'm doubting Azkar again.

[Fircoal]

To me it seems that Theopor_Cod is too involved with what happened before and is trying to accuse the same people, that sounds scummy to me.

Any thoughts?

[Thesp]

Very true, but, to a large extent, assuming that they are the same will make the latter true.

I disagree entirely. There are a number of counterfactuals against this line of reasoning as well.

It was just a response to Fircoal's question about Thesp's vote. I was trying to be responsible as an IC, because I felt like I'd just been attacking the new players rather than helping them. In hindsight, I should have indicated that I did not think it significant in that post.

I thought you

did

indicate that in your post.

To me it seems that Theopor_Cod is too involved with what happened before and is trying to accuse the same people, that sounds scummy to me.

Any thoughts?

I don't understand what you're saying here - can you help me understand?

My guess is that theopor_COD is Seol's scum partner.

[Fircoal]

I'm saying that Theopor_Cod didn't really believe the argument and thought that if he changed his argument now, he'd come off as scum. That's what I'm starting to think, but it's just a theory. But if that is true, he is scum.

[theopor_COD]

Holy Macaroni looks like we'll get a result either way here.

I foolishly in some ways thought Azkar's over defence to the random org vote was scummy, however my assessment of Fircoal and Azkar still fits, I'm pretty happy the way things are. Things at least are developing.

[VitaminR]

Very true, but, to a large extent, assuming that they are the same will make the latter true.

I disagree entirely. There are a number of counterfactuals against this line of reasoning as well.

I think that would be an interesting discussion. I must admit I haven't given it that much thoughts and I would to hear your reasoning. It wouldn't be that appropriate for the game, though. Perhaps through PM afterwards? If that would not be too much trouble, anyway.

It was just a response to Fircoal's question about Thesp's vote. I was trying to be responsible as an IC, because I felt like I'd just been attacking the new players rather than helping them. In hindsight, I should have indicated that I did not think it significant in that post.

I thought you

did

indicate that in your post.

In the original post, I did try to in the wording, but it could have been clearer.

I think it is to do

with the fact that your defense is "the only reason I defended him, was because it didn't seem like a scum post." That is what you can assume about every townie.

Your defense comes down to reasserting the fact that you're pro-town. That doesn't mean much as a defense, which is why

it can be seen

to reveal a need to re-affirm the underlying assumption that everyone is pro-town. Basically, stating that you're pro-town reveals a guilty conscience, and the possibility in your mind of it being untrue.

(emphasis mine)

[Azkar]

I can see how it can be read as less than absolutely serious, though. The phrasing is a bit over the top ("ultra-townie smilie," for instance) and we were essentially still in the random voting stage.

To a certain degree, I guess. I'd still draw the line between less than absolutely serious, and joke. You raised points that were relevant to the game, at least. If you'd just voted for me, saying that you thought I smelled like an elephant's butt, I probably wouldn't have felt compelled to respond .. except perhaps to question your parentage .

I get the feeling that theopor's found himself with some doubt cast on him, and is trying really hard to try and justify his past actions. It doesn't really seem sincere to me, though.

I have to say I disagree. He explained his vote then too.

He did. Not very elaborately, but he did. Then when some people started questioning his motives, he came back with a new explanation that was largely unrelated to the old one. What he based his new reasonings on was an early post in the game; something that was already in existance when he originally made the vote. If he had found it suspicious, it would've been nice for him to bring it up, then.

I now see he's recanting a bit on the new reasons, and falling back on the tried-and-true Azkar/Fircoal alliance theory.

I'm saying that Theopor_Cod didn't really believe the argument and thought that if he changed his argument now, he'd come off as scum. That's what I'm starting to think, but it's just a theory. But if that is true, he is scum.

That sounds somewhat along the lines of what I've been thinking. He made the opportunistic bandwagon vote, but now it's not working out for him. If he stays with it, though, he has a basis to say that it wasn't an opportunistic bandwagon vote.

---

These are my reasons for voting theopor. Part of it is gut feeling. His posts just don't come off right, to me. He's lurked for most of the game, popping in to make a couple of attacks that honestly come off as really weak, and lacking in real substance. His main reason for placing his vote on me continues to be the supposed link between myself and Fircoal, which only seems to exist because people kept on saying it exists.

[Thesp]

His main reason for placing his vote on me continues to be the supposed link between myself and Fircoal, which only seems to exist because people kept on saying it exists.

There actually was (is?) a potential link there, it was just too blatant to be a likely scum connection. Scum usually defend each other in subtler ways.

Seol, what do you think of theopor_COD?

[VitaminR]

Seol, what do you think of theopor_COD?

I'd like to hear this too.

Azkar, you make some good points, but I'm just not sold on the wagon. I don't see it.

[Seol]

I don't have a good handle on theopor_COD yet. He's wagon-happy, and says he's confident in his position, but I don't think his reasoning as I understand it is compelling. I'd say he looks scummy in a vacuum, but it's not in the least atypical for newbies nowadays.

theopor_COD, let me make sure I'm not misunderstanding you: you said you think Azkar is scum because he's overly defensive, which you then followed up with:

I foolishly in some ways thought Azkar's over defence to the random org vote was scummy, however my assessment of Fircoal and Azkar still fits, I'm pretty happy the way things are. Things at least are developing.

Firstly - why do you say that your "[thinking] Azkar's over defence to the random org vote was scummy" was "foolish"?

Secondly, I must have missed your arguments against the two of them other than that, why do you feel your assessment still fits if you're disregarding the first point?

VitaminR, I haven't had a chance to respond to your response yet, I only get 15-minute slots every so often (I'm in Geneva at the moment), just to let you know I haven't forgotten you.

[VitaminR]

He remembered me!

*swoons*

No worries, we all have busy weeks.

[Fircoal]

I'm still not sold on your argument Theopor_COD. I think I'd like more than, I as foolish, but I still agree with my foolishness.

[MeMe]

I'll be out of town for the next 48 hours or so.