Mini 443 - Tapioca Mafia - Game over!!

[Shanba]

MightyFireball: Yes, that was a serious accusation. You say a wagon is growing suspiciously quickly but jump on it yourself?

Uhm, you what? I like random bandwagons. It's fun. Espeically day 1

Ummm... I'm sensing a slight hypocrisy here. You're suspicous of my jumping on a day 1 bandwagon, but then you say that it's fun and you like it? Anyway, in my post, I said that bandwagons are generally suspicious. However, exceptions can be made for day 1 bandwagons, especially when the game hasn't really gotten started yet, as this one has.

Ah, I see you misunderstand me. I have no problem with you jumping on a wagon, it's the fact that you simultaneously condemned that wagon that leaves me uneasy.

However, looking at both, I think the case on Khelvaster is stronger.

unvote, vote Khelvaster

[shadyforce]

4 votes on Khelvaster now. I must admit though, I think players that stir the pot, and bandwagon shamelessly are good for the town, whether pro-town or not. It's a source of info both on the players that get bandwagoned, and the players doing the bandwagoning, especially useful on day 1. And the town needs to get pro-active or else we'll just run out of time and the mafia will win.

So I'd much rather leave the talkative provocative players to do their thing and start bandwagoning the lurkers, of which we have a few still. Aimee has said little, as has d8p, Earwig .

[Aimee]

4 votes on Khelvaster now. I must admit though, I think players that stir the pot, and bandwagon shamelessly are good for the town, whether pro-town or not. It's a source of info both on the players that get bandwagoned, and the players doing the bandwagoning, especially useful on day 1. And the town needs to get pro-active or else we'll just run out of time and the mafia will win.

So I'd much rather leave the talkative provocative players to do their thing and start bandwagoning the lurkers, of which we have a few still. Aimee has said little, as has d8p, Earwig .

Sorry, I am here, but at the moment I have finals until Friday. Expect a long post on Friday or Saturday. However, from what I see, Khelvaster is the most scummy so far, mainly due to his hypocracy and inconsistencies.

[kabenon007]

I would really like to hear from the nonposters before I do anything. I am leaning towards Khelvaster, but I don't want to do anything too rash. So, can you guys post something? Like your reactions to Khelvaster? Favorite color? Anything! Well, preferably something substantial, but...

Some people's kids, I tell you what...

[Earwig]

Sorry - not intentionally lurking. I'll post thoughts soon.

[MightyFireball]

I think we've said more or less all we can about Khelvaster's inconsistancies, so I guess we have to wait for him to respond before taking further action.

[Earwig]

I would really like to hear from the nonposters before I do anything. I am leaning towards Khelvaster, but I don't want to do anything too rash. So, can you guys post something? Like your reactions to Khelvaster? Favorite color? Anything! Well, preferably something substantial, but...

Some people's kids, I tell you what...

My favorite color is blue, but I like red too, as well as combinations of both colors.

Seriously, I'm sort of going along with the Khelvaster thing but need to re-read to see why. For now:

FoS: Khelvaster

[d8P]

Wow. I had no idea I'd only posted twice.

unvote: shadyforce

I don't have a habit of posting much in the first day, even when I see the argument against someone is flawed, as it tends to muddy the waters. I've ended up defending characters without knowing whether they were innocent or guilty. Then defending my defense. But since I've contributerd so little, here goes. ~shrug~

I don't think Khelvaster's posts were too inconsistent:

1. he was third to vote for shady, making it a bw.
   
2. he mistakenly counted three votes for pickem, and observed that shady was no longer the bw choice.
   
3. pickem accused him of looking for a bw
   
4. that was when Khel said he wasn't looking for a bw, that he had already cast his vote.

When I saw the post that pickem (and later, ripley and Coppélia) took exception to, I understood it to mean that Khel was flagging what he saw as a noteworthy trend; people were forming a different bandwagon.

His comments on bandwagons generally had nothing to do with his response to pickem's accusation as far as I can tell.

I have at least one note on everybody, though, so I'll balance what I've just said with this: if Khel is to be accused of being scum it should be for the post that got him in trouble, but not for the reasons given - it should be for his apparently-helpful-but-not-really approach. That's how scum act because they want to stay below the radar.

So, yeah.

FoS: Khelevar

[Ripley]

I guess it all depends how you interpret the first post (post 47). d&p thinks "Khel was flagging what he saw as a noteworthy trend". I got more of the sense picked out by kabenon007, the almost asking for permission to join in the latest big thing. It's not really clear.

I'm actually quite surprised by the general consensus that Khelvaster is scummy. A lot of people have voted him or FOS'ed him. I don't see inconsistency as so much of an issue as this original post, and even that wasn't such a huge deal. But look what's happened, all in the past day or so:

pickemgenius: Voted him for post 47
Ripley: left original random vote in place (because of Post 47)
Coppélia: Voted him for inconsistency
MightFireball: FOS'ed him, agreeing with Coppélia
Shanba: voted him
Aimee: "Khelvaster is the most scummy so far"
kabenon007:" I am leaning towards Khelvaster, but I don't want to do anything too rash"
Earwig: FOS'ed him ("Sort of going along with the Khelvaster thing")
d&p: FOS'ed him after detailed analysis

That's a

lot

of people. Just taking a quick look at the others:

beanbagboy: the only person to have ignored the Khelvaster issue completely. Not clear from his last post whether he even realises that kabenon changed the subject of his questioning from Shanba to Khelvaster.

shadyforce: prefers to bandwagon lurkers.

Still thinking about all this.

[MightyFireball]

I think we should probably hear what Khelvaster has to say for himself before we add any more votes.

[beanbagboy]

Sorry, I'm here. I don't... really get the issue, I didn't see anything. Let me reread... my brain is really and truly fried right now between finals and other end of year crap... our SS teacher is assigning a four page paper with 18 days left of school on a topic we have yet to start. (It's due with 3 days left of school. >.>)

Analysis coming SOON! YAY!

[beanbagboy]

You know, I looked over the game, here's my Q&D (quick and dirty):

Random votes, Shad wagon, Ripley wagon. Khelvaster makes a wagon comment. A buncha people think that's suspicious. He was making one vote, and then he says he's not looking for a wagon, but then he says wagons are the only way to start the game.

Eh... well, it doesn't exactly scream Townie, but he is new and that doesn't really seem very suspicious at all to me. In fact, I think the fact that some people are jumping all over him is very supicuous. (mispelling intentional.)

Bob seems to jump on the Khelvaster is scum wagon without really leading the argument, so if this wagon is wrong, she can withdraw later, but if it's a useful wagon, she can go "Oh, see? I was right/innocent" which is a common scum tactic.

I honestly think you guys are overreacting. I'm not defending Khel (well, I'm not trying to) so much as confused over the attack.

Unvote, Vote: Bob

because she was one (admittedly of many) who jumped on the wagon with no new major points to bring up. I'd like to hear what she thinks about this.

[Khelvaster]

unvote

I don't know who to vote for--shadow doesn't seem too mafia yo me.

[shadyforce]

Unvote: Ripley
Vote: pickemgenius

I've been reading back through the thread and there's plenty of little tells, but a lot of them point to pro-town. Generally, the mafia tends to be the players giving the least away.

I don't know why, but I'm getting scummy vibes from pickem but I can't quite put my finger on it. He has posted a good few times, without actually contributing much by way of analysis or opinion. His posts have just been random or quiet votes. He quietly put a second "random" vote on Shanba, and later quietly puts a second on Khel. Then as the pressure rose on Khel over the next page or two, he kept his vote there while saying nothing, happy to be on the bandwagon without actually looking to be driving it.

It's scummy behaviour.

[pickemgenius]

My vote was more of a way to get out of the random voting stage.

Khel still hasn't responded about himself, and I was disappointed when he posted last night.

[Copp├â┬®lia]

@BBB- you're basically saying that I jumped on the bandwagon and didn't bring anything new to the table, but I disagree with this on all counts. I don't consider two votes that went before me a bandwagon, and my own vote was based off of exactly the inconsistency I-not someone else- brought up. I saw something that pinged my scumdar, voted based off of it, and asked the player for more information- simple as that.

The inconsistency I brought up is significant to me. Inconsistency is the main reason I'm voting for Khelvaster, and his post last night doesn't make me want to change my vote.

[MightyFireball]

I'm not entirely convinced that Khelvaster is scum, and am perfectly willing to remove my vote on him upon his explaination of his inconsistancy. However, until then, my vote stays. The inconsistancy probably isn't worthy of a lynching, but it needs to be explained. Also, it's slightly suspicious that he posted and didn't explain his actions or declare his intentions to do so in the future despite the fact that I, among others, had been calling for his explaination.

[Ripley]

Yes, Khelvaster's posting without a word of explanation, promise of explanation to come or even acknowledgement of all the questions raised about his previous posts, has turned my opinion against him again. I had until then been moving in the other direction, not because of anything Khelvaster did but because of the reactions of other people (I already alluded to these misgivings in post 83, so won't repeat them here).

[beanbagboy]

Oh, OK, it's more of a pressure vote than anything else. I see, never mind, then.

@Bob: Three votes is a bandwagon (albeit a small one), IMO. If you look on the MafiaWiki you'll see that the third person on a bandwagon is very likely to be scum. Granted, these numbers were found a long time ago, but they still have truth to them. I still think you're overreacting a bit to something that's kind of small, and I think you're overreacting to me, too. I haven't seen you play as scum before so I can't tell by meta game (although you have a lot to go off of, lol) but this doesn't seem like what you normally do.

Khelvaster hasn't been here in a while... >.>

[Khelvaster]

I still go to school--I came on last night, and I'm on again. Does getting on every 18 hours make me inactive? If so, I'll go ahead and let the mod kick me for inactivity now, before I lag the game, causing it to collapse in a sea of lethargy...

Anyway, this is my first mafia game over forums. I've played a few times before on mIRC, but never in this format. I was trying to get the game moving in the beginning, and the way we generally do it on mIRC is to bw a random person after a couple minutes of talking. I figured that things would be the same here, so I was pointing out bws that were developing. I realized after reading some posts that it was being really scummish to point out bws, so now I've stopped. I'm going to go back through the forum to see who first said I was trying to bw, since even what I was doing was just pointing out bws, not jumping onto them. Whoever picked me out because I was being an easy target is probably scum--starting bandwagons without much justification can be a sign from what I've noticed/heard.

[Khelvaster]

I'm looking at earwig, pickem, or fireball for scum.

Of those three, pickem seems strongest. Pickem went off against me only after Ripley did, so he wouldn't be accused of starting a bw. At the same time, he implied that I was scum without much justification, most likely hoping to get off a quick lynch against me, and since his comment was fairly short, he wouldn't have committed himself that much. Speaking of comittment, he's switched his vote around a suspiciously large number of times. Here's the entirety of his accusation against me--

Khel, I hardly count 2 votes as a wagon, and as a sidenote:
Why, you looking for one to join, hmmmm

unvote

vote: Khelvaster

After I miscounted the 2 votes as 3 votes (someone changed their vote from shadow, and I hadn't noticed,)

[Khelvaster]

After I miscounted the 2 votes as 3 votes (someone changed their vote from shadow, and I hadn't noticed,) he jumped the gun to accuse me as soon as someone else put themselves on the line by accusing me in the first place. That quote of his just seems like a really, really shallow reason to jump me.




sorry for the triple post...I forgot to finish up my double post

[pickemgenius]

I'm looking at earwig, pickem, or fireball for scum.

Of those three, pickem seems strongest. Pickem went off against me only after Ripley did

Ripleys vote was random. Mine, not as random.

so he wouldn't be accused of starting a bw. At the same time, he implied that I was scum without much justification, most likely hoping to get off a quick lynch against me

I never said anything about quick lynching you, I voted you to get out of the random voting stage, sorry I can't control what other people do.

and since his comment was fairly short, he wouldn't have committed himself that much. Speaking of comittment, he's switched his vote around a suspiciously large number of times.

I don't take much stock in random voting.

[d8P]

Well, I think random bandwagon is par for the course day one (and often days two and three *sigh*). Pointing out that a bandwagon has suddenly switched to another player

could

be considered helpful, but firstly, you were wrong and secondly, it's only moderately helpful when correct, so it seems like the kind of thing scum would do to try to curry favour.

Anyway, as this is your first game on scum I'm going to let it go for now as there are plenty of others who can be tarred with that brush.

But on reading filtered by user, MightyFireball stands out as having contributed the least content.

Vote: MightyFireball

...and on previewing I see there are three new posts... but they don't make any difference to the fact that I want to light a fire under MF to see what colour the smoke is.

[Ripley]

Pickem went off against me only after Ripley did, so he wouldn't be accused of starting a bw.

After I miscounted the 2 votes as 3 votes (someone changed their vote from shadow, and I hadn't noticed,) he jumped the gun to accuse me as soon as someone else put themselves on the line by accusing me in the first place.

But pickemgenius picked up on your post immediately - in the very next post, actually. It wasn't until the next page that I commented on it. When pickem accused you my vote was only on you because I'd voted you randomly at the start of the game.