Mini 472 - Cartman Mafia - Game Over

[Gatorguy91]

K:
Thoughts: I'm still waiting for Dean to respond. Not Ready to do anything til' I hear his defense.

[J-man]

ok it appears that a slight misunderstanding happend while i was away, @ryan your questions are good and personally i think they are well chosen questions definatly worthy of a questionaire the problem i have is that YOU are asking them you have been borderline lurker this who day and we really don't have any content from you at all, the reason i say you shoulc answer your own questions is quite simple in my view, we need somthing from everyone and you definatly havn't given us anything to go on... at all.

so until you humor me im not going to let anything you say by, period.

[J-man]

oh and btw guys ive played with Ryan before, i consider this a quality scum tell.

[DeanWinchester]

The reason I have been quite: harry potter. finished it.

Ok, what is the argument against me?

And estes the reason I have been attacking you is that your "that is just how i play, don't lynch me." Which nobody else has commented on.

[Gatorguy91]

Unvote J-man, Vote Deanwhinchester.

Why did you vote for Earwig at l-3? It's Page 3, We need to get more contributions before lynching anyone.

FoS Earwig

for scummy behavior.

There. Respond, please.

[ryan]

Also

FOS: SorintheSeeker

for showing emotion after the night scene, a common scum tell. He's new though, so it could just be that. But townies dying are an expected part of a game with a night start, so the emotion seems fake.

I found this to be interesting. Why cant we be disappointed when we lose fellow townies? What is scummy about that? Emotion? Definitely not something that screams “scum” to me.

unvote, vote: Earwig

for placing a 3rd vote on J-man and trying to pass it off as random

I hadn't noticed that - sorry.

Unvote: J-Man

I’m not a fan of somebody apologizing for voting. It was just vote #3, if it was a random vote, don’t be sorry, just explain it and move on, although Sorin you jumped on rather quick with a vote on him without him explaining, opportunistic maybe?

The earwig thing does seem really odd. does seem like a newb scum slip.

Vote: Earwig

Although I do notice you call it a newb slip it’s also not impossible for it to be a townie newb slip, you also jumped on rather quick with a vote.

I still think Earwig is more suspicious than you, but he has enough votes on him without him having a chance to respond, and voting for you is better than keeping my random vote.

HUH? Why is voting somebody better than keeping a random? State a case on somebody and than follow through with a vote. Do you believe both to be scum? If so is it really a random vote?

Putting somebody lynch -2 on page three is fine. If they are two poeple willing to hammer than they are the ones we need to be looking at. I think its interesting he has been quite ever since.

First off I’m not willing to lose a townie on page 3 when we could get a scum instead.

Scum List

Off the Mark
DeanWinchester
Earwig

Not Sure

J-Man
ChaosOmega
SorintheSeeker
GatorGuy

Townies

Estes
Me
ZeekLTK

Unvote/Vote: DeanWinchester

[Off the Mark]

Also

FOS: SorintheSeeker

for showing emotion after the night scene, a common scum tell. He's new though, so it could just be that. But townies dying are an expected part of a game with a night start, so the emotion seems fake.

I found this to be interesting. Why cant we be disappointed when we lose fellow townies? What is scummy about that? Emotion? Definitely not something that screams “scum” to me.

It is a common scumtell. I think it's even mentioned in the wiki. Basically, scum like to fake emotions to make themselves appear more on the side of town. A real townie expects to lose a townie or two every night, so there's no reason to fake "oh what a bummer!!" or whatever. Scum see it as an opportunity to earn townie points, thus - scumtell.

Sorin's response to my accusation convinced me he's just a noob though, so I'm no longer suspicious of him for that.

Ryan, you seem a little scummy to me though, since you have me and Dean both in your scumlist, even though I have said Dean is one of my top suspects. You think I am just distancing? Or maybe you just think one of us is scum and you're not sure which? Anyway, it seems odd that you wouldn't even address the fact that I suspect Dean.

My vote's currently on Zeek, but I would support a Dean bandwagon too. I'm still waiting to hear more from both of them.

[ryan]

Also

FOS: SorintheSeeker

for showing emotion after the night scene, a common scum tell. He's new though, so it could just be that. But townies dying are an expected part of a game with a night start, so the emotion seems fake.

I found this to be interesting. Why cant we be disappointed when we lose fellow townies? What is scummy about that? Emotion? Definitely not something that screams “scum” to me.

It is a common scumtell. I think it's even mentioned in the wiki. Basically, scum like to fake emotions to make themselves appear more on the side of town. A real townie expects to lose a townie or two every night, so there's no reason to fake "oh what a bummer!!" or whatever. Scum see it as an opportunity to earn townie points, thus - scumtell.

Sorin's response to my accusation convinced me he's just a noob though, so I'm no longer suspicious of him for that.

Ryan, you seem a little scummy to me though, since you have me and Dean both in your scumlist, even though I have said Dean is one of my top suspects. You think I am just distancing? Or maybe you just think one of us is scum and you're not sure which? Anyway, it seems odd that you wouldn't even address the fact that I suspect Dean.

My vote's currently on Zeek, but I would support a Dean bandwagon too. I'm still waiting to hear more from both of them.

1: As a townie I don't expect to lose anyone at night, especially if we were smart during the day and went after the scummiest player

2: I think you answered your own question as opposed to the Dean question. I didn't address your Dean suspicion because the above was just some things I witnessed

3: In my opinion Dean has done enough with posting than disappearing without explanations that I feel good as him being one of our scummiest so far

[Estes]

Vote Count?

[Off the Mark]

1: As a townie I don't expect to lose anyone at night, especially if we were smart during the day and went after the scummiest player

I don't understand. How does the town going after the scummiest player during the day stop a night kill?

[Off the Mark]

Ryan - I'm curious, what made you put Zeek in the town list?

[ryan]

1: As a townie I don't expect to lose anyone at night, especially if we were smart during the day and went after the scummiest player

I don't understand. How does the town going after the scummiest player during the day stop a night kill?

I'm of the notion that you don't just go after "anyone" Day 1, I want to go after the scummiest player and lynch him, than hope our doc and cop do their jobs at night. It doesn't STOP a nightkill per say, but it gives us a better chance to lynch another scum the next day. I didn't like the comment basically saying that a townie is going to die Night 1 no matter what, that isn't always true. It's a crapshoot but I do believe the more discussion on Day 1 gives the Doc and Cop a better shot of who to protect/investigate.

As far as Zeek is concerned, I believe he's made valid arguments so far, called out scummy behavior and played pro town. Granted, we are only 5 pages in so that can change, but so far I haven't seen anything scummy, so I put him in the town slot so far.

[Stewie]

Vote Count:

By Count-Counter 2000

Earwig- 3 (ZeekLTK, SorintheSeeker, DeanWinchester)
DeanWinchester- 2 (ryan, Gatorguy91)
Off the Mark- 1 (J-Man)
ZeekLTK- 1 (Off the Mark)
Estes- 1 (ChaosOmega)

Not voting (2): Earwig, Estes

6 to lynch.

Sorry about that; I've been busy with my real life, and now I have pinkeye, which makes my eyes sensible to light, including the monitor. It should clear up soon, however.

[Estes]

Sorry to hear that Stewie, hope that clears up. Thanks for the count.

At the moment I wanna think Dean is mafia; but then again, I think he was more confused and hoping he had a lead, then actually being mafia. I kinda wonder about Gatorguy, he usually talks more.

[DeanWinchester]

My group of three:

Ryan
estes
zeek

Zeek because ryan put him in the town category for no real reason. I understand if ryan is a competent player he would do this also, but i'm not getting a smart vibe from him.

[ZeekLTK]

I am kinda wondering why NO ONE has looked at this. To me this is a HUGE event from the first day (*note that I didn't see that he originally agreed with me until Chaos pointed it out in his post):

After Earwig apologized and unvoted after being confronted by Off the Mark, ZeekLTK said:

However that's very shady to unvote just because it was the third vote and apologize...

unvote Estes

vote earwig

to which Off the Mark responded with:

Agreed, he backed off way too fast. Seems paranoid.

Alright. Let's look at your very next post:

FOS: DeanWinchester and ZeekLTK for being a little too eager to jump on the bandwagon. Zeek characterized Earwig's actions as "very shady" which I think is an overstatement. (I would call it a little odd, but totally understandable for a fairly new player) And Dean said "seems like a newb scum slip" which I think is jumping to conclusions a bit.

Uh...what? Now you don't agree with him. Pretty quick change of heart.

Okay let's look at this CAREFULLY.

First, I vote for the same person Off The Mark has (because let's face it, earwig's actions were extremely shady) and Off The Mark immediately posts to "agree" with me.

Then, as soon as one more person votes, he thinks to himself, "hey this kinda looks like a bandwagon, and it'll be easier (and put more suspicion out there, away from myself) if I get people to go after these guys as well."

Well, that could have worked if you hadn't already done what you'd done: agree with the reasoning behind earwig. So you basically just changed your stance for either no reason at all or to cause more confusion and get the town more preoccupied with chasing townies. Either way those are not pro-town reasons.

Your only defense for your unexplainable 180-degree change is that "the logic was weak", but you don't say WHY it is "weak"... and you clearly didn't think it was "weak" when you AGREED WITH IT.

Clearly the whole "FoS" on me and DW is just a mafia ploy to send the town off on a wild goose chase so that instead of just one person (earwig) being suspected, now you try to throw it on two people so that one might get lynched and then the cop wastes his investigation on the other, and not yourself.

Then this gem:

1. Zeek
2. Dean
3. Earwig

So two your top three suspects are people who "bandwagoned" against your other suspect? Great logic there.


It's so obvious; this guy has to be mafia.

unvote earwig; vote Off The Mark

[ryan]

My group of three:

Ryan
estes
zeek

Zeek because ryan put him in the town category for no real reason. I understand if ryan is a competent player he would do this also, but i'm not getting a smart vibe from him.

What reason is there to put Zeek in the scum category? And what reason have I given you to put me in the scum three? I mean you want to talk about no reasoning, your post screams that.

[Off the Mark]

I explained that Zeek. Are you not reading carefully? I'm keeping my vote on you, although Ryan is giving me bad vibes too.

Like I said earlier, in the early game I'll cast a vote for any hint of scumminess. It can be a good way to get reactions. My vote for Earwig was for a hint of scumminess. You piled right on, though, and I said I agreed that he looked paranoid. I still think he looked paranoid, but there are multiple reasons for someone to be paranoid. He could be somewhat newb or he could have a defensive playstyle, or he could indeed be scum. Have you ever played with "omg_im_innocent_wtf"? That guy was the most paranoid player I've ever seen, even when he's vanilla town. That's why I called it a "weak reason".

But now I am voting for you for a stronger reason, and I am finding myself agreeing with Dean that Ryan may be scum too.

[Off the Mark]

What reason is there to put Zeek in the scum category? And what reason have I given you to put me in the scum three? I mean you want to talk about no reasoning, your post screams that.

False dichotomy. You had an "unsure" section too, but you somehow put Zeek in "town".

[Off the Mark]

So two your top three suspects are people who "bandwagoned" against your other suspect? Great logic there.

It's so obvious; this guy has to be mafia.

I didn't have a strong feeling about anyone besides you or Dean at the time, so I put Earwig in the #3 spot because of his paranoia.

Besides, like my discussion with Ryan demonstrated, there are plausible reasons to suspect players who have opposed each other. Either they could be distancing or you think one is scum, but not the other, but you're not sure which one.

"It's so obvious" feels like a huuuuuuge scumtell to me. You are playing on people's emotions, trying to make them feel they are dumb if they don't agree with you.

[ryan]

Off the Mark: Just curious but are you saying that Dean's reasoning (which wasn's a very good argument) is making you suspicious of me? I explained why I placed Zeek in the town category in one my posts but I find it interesting that you are agreeing with somebody you fingered to be scummy

[Off the Mark]

I don't

know

if anyone's scummy, so I keep an open mind. I'm not going to dismiss everything Dean says because he's on my suspect list. And a good point is a good point. I am less suspicious of Dean now, but he could just be blowing smoke, so I'm keeping an open mind.

[ryan]

What reason is there to put Zeek in the scum category? And what reason have I given you to put me in the scum three? I mean you want to talk about no reasoning, your post screams that.

False dichotomy. You had an "unsure" section too, but you somehow put Zeek in "town".

Please look back at my post. I said I believed that Zeek had made pro town arguments, called out scummy behavior and played pro town so far. I didn't put him in the unsure category because I had info on him that I felt was pro town. My unsure category included people who hadn't really posted alot of content

[Off the Mark]

Those are vague assertions, ryan. Can you explain how he did those things? What specifically gave you pro-town feelings?

[ryan]

However that's very shady to unvote just because it was the third vote and apologize...

unvote Estes

vote earwig

A valid point made here, something you agreed with.

People, including you, were pretty quick to jump on the "j-man" bandwagon but I guess those people aren't suspicious since they didn't vote for one of your mafia buddies?

A good catch and observation. I thought post 67 were some good thoughts on you being defensive and also a little “scummy” as well. I believe he’s answered questions when asked with content and not just one word responses and I feel he’s being active in our hunt for scum.