Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[Korlash]

The problem with that is if we let two days go by there is a chance of... 6 townies dead. Leaving us at a probable 3-3 situation which is game over. Overall I do not see the term "mass claim" coming into effect. I can see a cop or tracker claim day 2 followed up by doc protection that night, but I don't see the point in a mass claim ever unless we only have 1 mafia left to deal with. Doing it too early could result in a claimed cop v. claimed cop situation resulting in either real cop being lynched or Nked. and a claim to late results in no more info then we would already have. Overall I am fully against any claim unless your life depends on it.

Or thats my opinion. As the game progresses and the situation turns one way or the other I may be inclined to change my mind. But I doubt it.

[jerubbaal]

The only one of these I've done before was a newbie, and when you're in lylo, as you are after one mislynch, cop claims are inevitable. Seems like a cop claim is likely useful as soon as the cop has relevant information, but until them it seems moot.

Then again, cop claims can't be completely trusted. In my only other game, I ended up getting lynched day 2 as the result of a false cop-claim when we had no cop in the game. I see no reason to assume that we even have a cop, so a lot of this is just speculating in the dark.

Even with a role claim, we have to strongly consider the possibility that the claimer is lying, especially if the claimer is suggesting actions that will make or break the game, in a lylo type situation. Maybe this is just a touchy issue with me, as I lost last game to a falseclaim, but it needs to be considered. We don't know what power roles are in this game, and if we have some situation like a cop and no doc, then a cop claim will get the cop killed (very likely).

On a side note, what is the likelihood of having crazy roles in a game like this, like cops with questionable sanity or docs that don't always work or sometimes do weird things, or such? Most of the games I've read thus far have been newbie games, which are all identical formats, so I should do some reading on these mini normals to see how they tend to run. The standards seem somewhat different, but I'm not quite sure how yet.

Korlash, by talking in circles, I meant you were talking a lot without really going anywhere. It just seems like you're not always being very clear in explaining your reasoning. Try not to ramble and make those ideas less clear than they are in your head. I'm an English major, so I tend to ramble quite a bit too, but I do think that it helps the town to be as clear and precise as possible.

[Anata112]

I apologize for not posting recently, as I've been busy over the weekend. But now I've read all the posts and pretty much caught up.

In general I'm more of a quiet person as I like to observe, and if something has been said already, I don't see a need to repeat things unless I need to assert my position. As has been mentioned, I am a new member and still trying to adjust to participating in this game online.

I will keep reading the posts and analyzing until I have something to say that hasn't been said already.

[Korlash]

Well if people would stop trying to use false information against me...

Yeah I tend to just type everything in my head at once and try and sort it out later... I guess I will try to limit it to as little as possible but still get my point across...

[Abstract Actuary]

My instinct is that Korlash is a townie. He is being pretty defensive and rambling quite a bit but he doesn't strike me as scum.

I don't know what "playing black" means. Does someone care to explain it to me? Thanks.

This line

Jitsu, decent scumhunting, putting out the facts of what's been going on without much distortion, very good. Clarity is always in the town's interest, and distortion of arguments and actions is always bad, so I'm happy so far.

in jerubbaal's post 57 sent off my scumdar. It just seems like he is trying hard to align himself with the one person who has been actively "scumhunting" so far. A couple others have done this since, I believe. I admit it's not much, but I just wanted to get it out there.

Part of the town's hurdle this game is the lack of information. We have no idea what we are up against or who could possibly be on our side. We don't even know how many mafia members there are or if there are any mafia-aligned roles helping them out. I think one thing that might be helpful is if everyone gave a guess as to how many mafia members there are likely to be and if there may be any mafia role players out there.

My guess is that there are 3 mafia members and possibly an additional mafia role player, based on the wording in the setup post.

[Miztef]

@Actuary: My guess for # of scum is 3. Including any other anti-town roles. Having 4 scum is just too much unless there is a good portion of power roles, considering 4 is 1/3 of the players. I think 3 is about standard for 12 player games.

Nothing else of interest right now, although, I also wish to know what "playing black" means.

[curiouskarmadog]

Christ, you guys posted some lengthy posts over the weekend. ok, notes on game..

please, no massclaiming. I don’t agree with any type of massclaim…we don’t know the set up or the amount of power roles we have. At this point, I think it would only benefit scum.

Getting town vibes off Korlash, I don’t think he is over reacting, however, if he was, can anyone explain to me why over reacting is a scum tell?

I like bandwagon(BW), it provide information…lots of information. When I add a “pressure” vote, it is not always pressure on the person I am voting (if you need more theory I can provide..but don’t want to waste time explaining theory in a non-newbie game).

Korlash, maybe I missed it in your posts. Explain this statement.

Well if people would stop trying to use false information against me...

Something else I wanted to comment on..I liked Korlash’s post 61. I think he has a point here.

For starters take what just happened. You talked, and I answered. We just committed active discussion! We have each gained info on the other, without a vote needed. Now take Miztef's vote. I pretty much said nothing in response to it. Because he did not give me any specific reasons that I could explain/counter. So we, the town, have gained nothing out of it and the maifa have gained a player with a slightly higher bandwagon. (This is not about me here. This is for later on, anyone can attack the people on me saying there was no reason for a vote/wagon and use it against them. So in theory, 5 townies can be in danger of having scum opportunities their deaths/reason to be lynched.)

If I was miztef’s, I would want to back up my vote a bit. But he comes back with post 62 and 63(provided)

ah, maybe I should have read more carefully, I didn't really see all the stuff about flaming and researching other games.

Still... after all that, the conclusion being a simple "we should talk or vote" seems almost pointless.

I'm honestly shocked no one has voted for me yet. I would think a vote on me would make sense after that post from you korlash.

I do find jitsu's tatics very good and clean, and as we go forward, will become more useful. I hope his clarification works well when there is loads of information.

Right now, I think I'm gonna lay off pushing any wagons very hard, we need a bit more activity from other players

.

I bolded the statements that REALLY sticks out to me. Instead of defending his vote or asking questions or scum hunting, he is just going to back off pushing wagons. If this was true, why not unvote? Now you are passively pushing a wagon. Miztef, why are you surprised no one has voted you after Korlash’s post? There was only 30 minutes that passed between his post and yours? In a game that could take months, this surprises you? What motivated you to say that? Also, why are you voting Korlash?

Vote Miztef

not liking his play (or lack thereof) or posts right now.

[oEJo]

Sorry for lurking, I just can't seem to provide anything relevant or useful to this game that hasn't been mentioned. I can't seem to get a good read on anyone.

I spose I could try and think of something... Maybe a small analysis on everyone, yes...

Korlash

- You're really hard to read, mate. You provide logical arguments, impenetrable defence. You talk alot. Really could be either way, scum trying to blend in a bit too much, or townie trying to kickstart the game.

CuriousKarmaDog

- Pro-bandwagon. Against staying in the random-voting stage. I like that.

Mexal

- He's away. He misunderstood Sudo_Nym's post, and I wouldn't like a mistake like that to happen again. Probably an honest mistake, slight possibility of scum looking for an opportunity. Possibly both.

Jitsu

- Seems to know what he's talking about. Agree with you fully about the massclaiming thing, however, you seem to be slightly fixated on Korlash.

Miztef

- Wants a fourth vote (49), not so long after a couple of third votes, and forward-moving conversation, contrary to his belief. Miztef votes Korlash a pretty bad reason. He wants to find a candidate for lynching on just the third page (58). Scummy vibes from me.

Jerubbaal

- At the beginning of post 70 you explain why massclaiming is a bad idea. Then you get all snarky with Korlash for doing that. What the hell? Sorry, IMO Korlash is providing reasonable explanations, care to explain exactly where he was "talking in circles?" Nevertheless, those aren't really scumtells.. I think you're town.

oEJo

- Wait.. doh.

Anata112

- Has made about the same amount of contribution I have. Very little. Alas, different people play the game different ways, but just make sure to assert your influence and scumdars every now and again.

Sudo_Nym

- There goes my reasoning for my first vote against you. I think you're townie, based on the fact that you're providing reasonable explanation for most actions taken by you or others. Plus, I like your name.

Jayalay

- All you've done is ask a direct question. Direct questions are good, however, it's already been explained to you that a third vote is nothing to sweat over, more of a town tell than a scum tell.

Abstract Actuary

- No reads. All I've got is some joking about some guy's avatar. One could read into the last sentence of post 79 "

My guess is that there are 3 mafia members and possibly an additional mafia role player, based on the wording in the setup post.

" as coaching some other mafia players. Perhaps he is the "additional mafia role player," his mafia buddies don't know, but it is beneficial that they do? It's a long shot, but it's all I've got.

NabakovNabakov

- Don't believe the modclaim at all. Anyone gonna counterclaim?

Last but not least:

GunslingerKB

- What can I say about someone who has only made a random vote?

Anyone who gets the order of my list receives a cookie.

[curiouskarmadog]

Crap, hmmmm. order of who posted first?

peanut butter, please

[Miztef]

I wasn't shocked that no one voted me at that specific time, just that there were no votes on me at all, random or otherwise. Usually my gameplay is seen is heavily scummy right from the get go, so it's just a different feeling for me.

Why korlash? Simply because he had the most votes on him, so I added another to see what would happen. My "laying off hard wagons" line is my way of saying there is no heavy evidence against anyone I have seen, so I'm not gonna write speeches on why specific players should be lynched.

I wouldn't mind changing my vote at this time, just have no one to change it to. I am starting to get the impression korlash is town, but only slightly, so I think I'll stick to it until my scumdar picks up something good.

[oEJo]

CKD gets a peanut butter cookie.

[Miztef]

lol, I actually thought there was some complicated reason you posted it in that order.

and, yay for me being the only player you get scummy vibes from. God I am such a bad pro-town player.

[oEJo]

Not to mention, if you're mafia, you're also a bad pro-scum player. Go figure.

[jerubbaal]

The snarkiness was very probably unnecessary, but I was somewhat in disbelief that he seemed to consider it a novel suggestion that mafia might claim town if we did a massclaim.

Talking in circles mainly referred to Korlash's larger post, since then he's kept them smaller and a bit tighter. His language still confuses me sometimes, but not stating things clearly isn't necessarily a scumtell.

Miztef, you seem rather antsy to me. Seeking to hurry things along is very rarely in the town's interest, it's not surprising that your reactions have been met with a degree of hostility. It could just be impatience, but if it is, then you are correct.

God I am such a bad pro-town player.

Oh, to Actuary, "playing black" refers to Magic: the Gathering. Korlash is actually a card from a new set, and he's a black card (there are five colors). A lot of people think he's the bee's knees, but I haven't been hugely impressed. Korlash is right though, he's big and wins games, so I can't complain too much. I just don't like black decks in general.

Also, is there a reason that you considered my post regarding my approval of jitsu's scumhunting habits more sketchy than the others whom you suggest have done the same thing since?

[oEJo]

The snarkiness was very probably unnecessary, but I was somewhat in disbelief that he seemed to consider it a novel suggestion that mafia might claim town if we did a massclaim.

I wasn't actually commenting on the snarkiness, I was commenting on the irony - that you did a similar thing in that same post in the opening sentence.

[Miztef]

lol, I love magic, I can't believe I missed a comment refering to it. Haven't been following it lately though.

oh, and yes, I'm an extremely impatient player. Not to get the day finished per say, I just like to keep things moving at a fast pace. This game is getting a bit fast though, so I think I'll try to slow down a bit.

I've noticed that in games where I'm mafia, people tend not to suspect me for a good while, cause I tend to play more cautious. When I'm town, people tend to jump at me right away, since I play however I feel like ><.

[curiouskarmadog]

lol, I love magic, I can't believe I missed a comment refering to it. Haven't been following it lately though.

oh, and yes, I'm an extremely impatient player. Not to get the day finished per say, I just like to keep things moving at a fast pace. This game is getting a bit fast though, so I think I'll try to slow down a bit.

I've noticed that in games where I'm mafia, people tend not to suspect me for a good while, cause I tend to play more cautious. When I'm town, people tend to jump at me right away, since I play however I feel like ><.

wow, what a post.

if you like to keep things at a fast pace, why do you want to slow it down a bit? SO when you are mafia, you are more cautious? Cautious, like trying to slow the game down a bit?

[Jitsu]

@Korlash:

Your basically putting me in a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario here. If I don't answer the questions I look scummy, yet if I do you call it defensive and use that against me.

True. I admit it was a little unfair to you personally, but I do think it ended up helping the town with the information it's generated, as you pointed out. If you had thought to mention this right away, you would have looked a lot less suspicious. If you acted like you had nothing to hide (as I expected you to), I wouldn't have gotten much out of it.

This may suprise people, but I also am guessing you are townie. There's only two possibilities to me: you are a scum furiously backpedaling to get out of a bad situation, or you are a townie that got caught flat footed and are working furiously to try to clear your name. I think if you were scum you would have been a bit more careful to start with, and would not have continued to draw attention to yourself like you have. You seem determined to explain your way out of the mess and the suspicions you have raised on the others make sense to me. I believe you were just frustrated and scrambling to fix things -- I am getting a townie read off of that. I actually turned my attention off of you and onto some of the others last night, which you will see in a moment. I still have a little suspicion on you, but I think there are better targets to pursue now.


@Miztef:

You seem surprised that no one voted for you in response to your Korlash vote? I wasn't online then, but when I saw your vote later, I did find it suspicious since Korlash was already squirming at that point. To me, it sounded like a convenient time to put the fourth vote on him without much suspicion, but this by itself was not enough for a vote on you in my opinion -- I think it's possible to justify that you were continuing what I started to see if anything more shook out. However, the thing that really piqued my interested was your post #71. It looked like you were noticeably irritated that people were jumping on Mexal ("

he's on god damn vacation"

?). It certainly looked to me like you were jumping in to defend him and give him some excuses.

Sure, maybe Mexal didn't read closely, but Sudo_Nym was careful to include numerous disclamers. Given that you had to read a bunch of those disclaimers to even get to what Sudo_Nym was saying, I find it hard to buy the argument that he didn't read it carefully enough because he was on vacation. Either Mexal had a really sloppy/hurried read (in which case his comments had limited usefulness anyway), or he just took an opportunity to jump on a wagon. I can't tell if you were being the voice of reason there, or helping out a scumbuddy.

Even if you did want to keep people from jumping to conclusions about Mexal, why didn't you just let Mexal answer in his own defense? You could still have posted afterwards, and we would have gotten a better read on him in the meantime.


@Sudo_Nym

Regarding the mass claim, I find it less suspicious due to all of the disclaimers, but from what I've seen in other games, even saying the words "Mass claim" on Day 1 is right up there with "Suggesting a No Lynch since we can't get a good read on anyone" -- it's a great way to get lynched. a great way to attract a huge amount of suspicion. I think you realized that after you opened the door, but given the number of disclaimers you threw in there, I think you answered me as best you could, so I'm not finding that as suspicious.


@Mexal

As mentioned above, I am havious doubts that you saw the mass claim and missed Sudo_Nym's disclaimers. I mean if there was just one disclaimer, I could see overlooking it, but holy crap, that entire message was like one giant disclaimer with the full claim explanation buried somewhere in the middle. Sudo even put the word "stupid" in italics. Sure, there's a possibility that Sudo_Nym was trying to get away with innocently floating the mass claim idea, but ultimately, I agree with Korlash calling you on it and his FoS on you seemed to be a good response -- strong enough to send a message, but not overreacting. You did state your dislike of the mass claim, but people pretty much have to do that, as fighting for a mass claim would be suicide at this point. Given that Sudo_Nym was the player you attacked, I can understand his vote on you.


@CuriousKarmaDog:

I like your post #81. I agree with your logic, particularly about Miztef.


@anata:

I understand that the newbie tendency is to sit back and analyze without saying anything, but that doesn't help the town at all. Even if you simply state your opinions on what has been said without coming up with a new analysis, that's still a benefit to the town. I would like to hear what you think.


@The others:

I haven't seen anything suspicious from Jerubbaal yet. Several people have commented on my play, even Korlash himself did in the middle of the action, so I don't see Jerubbaal aligning himself with me any more than anyone else has at this point. Jerubbaal did continue to ride Korlash a bit, but I think he was looking more to try to precisely what Korlash was actually saying than anything.

I also agree with oEJo's comments, but I can't get much of a read from him, Abstract Actuary or Jayalay due to limited info. At least oEJo has stated his opinions.


So I will give a

FoS:Miztef, Mexal

for the reasons above. I'm honestly not sure who is more deserving of a vote at this point, but I'd like to hear more from Mexal about the reasoning for his vote on Sudo_Nym before I consider my next move.

[curiouskarmadog]

I wasn't shocked that no one voted me at that specific time, just that there were no votes on me at all, random or otherwise. Usually my gameplay is seen is heavily scummy right from the get go, so it's just a different feeling for me.

also this doesnt seem to make since..you said

"I'm honestly shocked no one has voted for me yet. I would think a vote on me would make sense after that post from you korlash. "

You didnt say "yet" you said after korlash's post..only 30 minutes had passed..please explain.

[Jitsu]

Ugh, sorry for the typos and such above. I started writing my response very late last night and I didn't catch them before I posted today.

[curiouskarmadog]

edit: you said "yet", but that was in reference to Korlash's post..meaning, "I am surprised that no one has yet voting me after Korlash's post"..

at least that is how I read those two sentences...maybe I am wrong.

[curiouskarmadog]

Ugh, sorry for the typos and such above. I started writing my response very late last night and I didn't catch them before I posted today.

no sweat, as you can tell I am king of typos..I hate to proofread my own posts.

[Jitsu]

Right, why is it that you can never seem to find the typos until AFTER you've actually posted and it's too late to fix it? Oh well, I'm happy to clarify anything that's unclear.

[Miztef]

I'm not sure what your asking of me karma dog...

Yes, I was surprised that no one had voted me yet, only because I am used to being voted for on page 2-3 in most games. This game was an oddity for me. I was also referring to korlash not voting me, in addition. I hope that makes sense.

[Abstract Actuary]

Oh, to Actuary, "playing black" refers to Magic: the Gathering. Korlash is actually a card from a new set, and he's a black card (there are five colors). A lot of people think he's the bee's knees, but I haven't been hugely impressed. Korlash is right though, he's big and wins games, so I can't complain too much. I just don't like black decks in general.

Thanks, this is what I was guessing it was.

Also, is there a reason that you considered my post regarding my approval of jitsu's scumhunting habits more sketchy than the others whom you suggest have done the same thing since?

I'm actually not sure why. It was the first one that struck me as "trying hard to look town". It may have been the first of it's kind, but I honestly don't remember. It's really nothing more than gut feeling at this point, nothing strong.