Gistou (Over!)

[rb]

Luna: who are the top scum suspects in your hood? I want to ISO them and see what I can find in the actual game.

[Luna Fox]

Luna: who are the top scum suspects in your hood? I want to ISO them and see what I can find in the actual game.

Without disclosing any additional members if they exist, Klingoncelt.
Copper was also a scumread but he's gotten better.

[RAM]

No, I think I get it. So everyone in the PT is guaranteed to count as undead. Per Mastin, undead for the purposes of that PT are Wulden and Undead Risen Slave(or whatever portion of drams' flip counts as your actual faction, not sure if Risen Slave was his role name, or if that's part of the faction name). In addition, everyone in that PT either shares the same wincon, OR is a spy.

After some talk back and forth, you determined that everyone in the PT was claiming to be Undead, therefore if their is a spy, they must be Wulden.

Is that about the gist of it?

-Cerb

[Luna Fox]

After some talk back and forth, you determined that everyone in the PT was claiming to be Undead, therefore if their is a spy, they must be Wulden.

More or less.
I have a very strong feeling that if there's a spy it's of the Wulden race and most likely scum (since they fake claimed undead).
It's a bit different than what you mentioned even if the result is the same.
I'm also open recently to the possibility of there being an Undead of a different faction.

[RAM]

Cool. I think there's no further benefit to discussing things about the race and such then. It is entirely possible for race and faction to be wholly independent. There is some degree of mechanical evidence(based on the universal undead claims in your PT) that at least one wulden is anti-town. Slightly weaker mechanical evidence that at least one undead is anti-town.

Why didn't you investigate your own PT Luna? You could have been clearing your own PT at a rate of 2 per night, between discovering individuals within the PT who had a different wincon, and using dramonics racial cop to find those who had fake claimed. I understand the others may not have claimed, but there is little reason to not turn your neighborhood into a masonry.

I ask this because I, as I've said repeatedly, find SS's reaction to your result unlikely to come from scum in the circumstances of this game. The line of reasoning I presented, that is, that you investigating within the PT is optimal, should have come up in your conversations in the PT, and if so/depending on your reaction to it, may have made a deliberate attempt to frame other members of the PT as scum likely. Of course, it's possible it was simply random target selection, rather than a deliberate attempt to frame(though random selection when any faction that shows up as differing from your own is an effective guilty is basically an attempt to frame).

Either way, the point is IF such redirection exists(that is, source based redirection, rather than target based(a redirector versus a bus driver)), I'm pretty certain there is no other role(other than a vig) that would be a better target for redirection.

-Cerb

[RAM]

RachMarie: Are you actively caught up with the game? I know you said you'd catch up after the weekend, just wondering where you are in the catch-up and if you have any insights to share.

-Cerb

[rb]

Luna: who are the top scum suspects in your hood? I want to ISO them and see what I can find in the actual game.

Without disclosing any additional members if they exist, Klingoncelt.
Copper was also a scumread but he's gotten better.

Klingon's posting on Day 1 was just that she thought WT/Expedience/No Retreat were scum.

With your result she's convinced SS is cult and that I'm trying to protect them and therefore also cult. The No Retreat scum read seems to be an original line of thought. She's not really shy about voting any of her scumreads, but she never really pushes any of them either. It's just like, "X is scum" and then votes. It's basically slightly-above DGB level of participation for the most part. which is pretty poor. I don't really see much in Celt's specific reads that cry scum, but she's also not taking much of a stance on getting people she thinks are scum lynched. The reads are just there, not much is done about them so it's null to me. Based on her interactions I'd call her Scum.

Talks a lot about her own playstyle and ability to do meta-reads, and says in 752 that an Expedience flip can tell her if Titus is scum or not - but never specifies which of Expedience's flips indicate what. To me that's just real fucking scummy, because it's completely vague and lets her do pretty much whatever the fuck she wants in an Expedience post-flip situation and avoid any sort of accountability. She avoids directly saying anything anywhere and keeps her vote on No Retreat (a totally futile vote, as it was basically WT vs. Kuroi at that point) all the way up until Dram tells her to vote on something useful.

Her push on me is hilariously bad, and I think it's pretty scummy + opportunistic again to suggest that I've been culted overnight. That's a pretty big stretch to think that I'd overreact that badly (LLD was and still is a much stronger wagon) if I was cult and SS was cult with me, based off my questioning interactions regarding the neighbourhood/Copper. It really strikes me that she wants me to stop trying to assess your neighbourhood for scum, whereas the others in there seem to be open to the idea.

I feel pretty 'off' about Klingon after reading her ISO, and coupled with the fact that the neighbourhood collectively felt bad about her in the early game, I think she's likely scum.

[rb]

Going to bed now.

[davesaz]

Cool. I think there's no further benefit to discussing things about the race and such then. It is entirely possible for race and faction to be wholly independent. There is some degree of mechanical evidence(based on the universal undead claims in your PT) that at least one wulden is anti-town. Slightly weaker mechanical evidence that at least one undead is anti-town.

Why didn't you investigate your own PT Luna? You could have been clearing your own PT at a rate of 2 per night, between discovering individuals within the PT who had a different wincon, and using dramonics racial cop to find those who had fake claimed. I understand the others may not have claimed, but there is little reason to not turn your neighborhood into a masonry.

I ask this because I, as I've said repeatedly, find SS's reaction to your result unlikely to come from scum in the circumstances of this game. The line of reasoning I presented, that is, that you investigating within the PT is optimal, should have come up in your conversations in the PT, and if so/depending on your reaction to it, may have made a deliberate attempt to frame other members of the PT as scum likely. Of course, it's possible it was simply random target selection, rather than a deliberate attempt to frame(though random selection when any faction that shows up as differing from your own is an effective guilty is basically an attempt to frame).

Either way, the point is IF such redirection exists(that is, source based redirection, rather than target based(a redirector versus a bus driver)), I'm pretty certain there is no other role(other than a vig) that would be a better target for redirection.

-Cerb

If the redirector was scum inside the PT and wanted to prevent a guilty on themselves, how would they choose whom to send the redirect to? It seems pretty implausible that they would pick a random player outside the PT as a target, given the possibility of a guilty for a different reason.

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

2 things I really hated about rb in fast few pages that are really unsetteling

1 . his question about me being culted or protected when klingon outed I was targetted. thats so damn picky

2 . the way he is calling whoever express concern about him scum

[RAM]

Cool. I think there's no further benefit to discussing things about the race and such then. It is entirely possible for race and faction to be wholly independent. There is some degree of mechanical evidence(based on the universal undead claims in your PT) that at least one wulden is anti-town. Slightly weaker mechanical evidence that at least one undead is anti-town.

Why didn't you investigate your own PT Luna? You could have been clearing your own PT at a rate of 2 per night, between discovering individuals within the PT who had a different wincon, and using dramonics racial cop to find those who had fake claimed. I understand the others may not have claimed, but there is little reason to not turn your neighborhood into a masonry.

I ask this because I, as I've said repeatedly, find SS's reaction to your result unlikely to come from scum in the circumstances of this game. The line of reasoning I presented, that is, that you investigating within the PT is optimal, should have come up in your conversations in the PT, and if so/depending on your reaction to it, may have made a deliberate attempt to frame other members of the PT as scum likely. Of course, it's possible it was simply random target selection, rather than a deliberate attempt to frame(though random selection when any faction that shows up as differing from your own is an effective guilty is basically an attempt to frame).

Either way, the point is IF such redirection exists(that is, source based redirection, rather than target based(a redirector versus a bus driver)), I'm pretty certain there is no other role(other than a vig) that would be a better target for redirection.

-Cerb

If the redirector was scum inside the PT and wanted to prevent a guilty on themselves, how would they choose whom to send the redirect to? It seems pretty implausible that they would pick a random player outside the PT as a target, given the possibility of a guilty for a different reason.

I don't think the objective would be to prevent a guilty on themselves? The hood was fairly sizeable from what we've been told, so it's fairly unlikely(on the first night at least) that the person luna would choose to investigate within the hood would be themselves. It's possible that they were more concerned with keeping themselves safe, but I'd think framing someone within the hood would be more valuable(as would framing anyone outside the hood as well). Given that the majority of the game, and *probably* the hood is town aligned, directing the faction cop towards actual scum, or a person they viewed as scummy, would only risk hurting their own team if the person investigated was on their team...which is unlikely.

Basically, I think it would be better to create false guilties when you have no knowledge of who a faction cop will investigate, than it is to ensure they will return a false innocent.

This is all speculation though. I can tell you how I would utilize such an ability as scum in that situation, but I don't know how someone else would. :-/

-Cerb

[Stormblade]

Just had a thought. Salt Storm, have you claimed your nation? If not, what is it?
-Nahdia

[Stormblade]

Salt Squad* whatever

[davesaz]

This is all speculation though. I can tell you how I would utilize such an ability as scum in that situation, but I don't know how someone else would. :-/

This much I can agree with. We should just ignore the WIFOM and treat it like a real result. No guarantees but I think it's best to apply Occam's razor - most likely reason for a guilty result is an actual guilty.

[RAM]

This is all speculation though. I can tell you how I would utilize such an ability as scum in that situation, but I don't know how someone else would. :-/

This much I can agree with. We should just ignore the WIFOM and treat it like a real result. No guarantees but I think it's best to apply Occam's razor - most likely reason for a guilty result is an actual guilty.

Sure. SS's reaction to the guilty absolutely doesn't make sense given the obfuscation about win conditions and factions in this game. Therefore, he's telling the truth, therefore Luna's result was tampered with. Hell, we don't even know what the isolationist faction is, all we know is that Luna says she received that result from a faction cop on SS, and SS says that isn't his faction...a claim he made AFTER she outed the result. Doesn't make sense yo, and I don't vote for people whose actions don't make any actual sense for scum.

The LLD thing is all speculation too. Honestly, based on actual behavior in thread, the slot I'd be happiest voting for is without a doubt Klingoncelt. Like, hands down. I tried to get people to after her yesterday, and everybody was all "oh yeah this behavior by her is scummy, blah blah blah" but practicaly nobody actually voted her.
-Cerb

[Cephrir]

Sure. SS's reaction to the guilty absolutely doesn't make sense given the obfuscation about win conditions and factions in this game. Therefore, he's telling the truth, therefore Luna's result was tampered with.

don't be a sucker.

i should know, i am one and its p unfortunate.

[Toogeloo]

I share Dram's win condition.

I don't know anything about treaties.

I do know that Alexis Galenos was the heroine and Dmitri Damanos was evil.

If you were to flip, would you have redacted factional information?

Faction is your WinCon and you can't be say, West Empire Faction and be scum. We know that from Titus' flip.

Similarly, you can't say that any flip thus far that isn't the same as yours is town if you really wanted to argue it. If they don't have the same wincon as you, you aren't even aligned with them technically speaking.

People fighting lynches based on what they think the wincons should say if they were scum is stupid. All we know is that this is multi-ball, and that one of the factions will say they win when they control over 50% of the remaining players. Hell, loosely speaking, dram's win-condition requires them to be over 50% of the remaining players, so how are you so certain it's not a scum wincon?

Okay, well Mastin did say:

"Factions, loosely speaking, have general trends, sharing race, location, and nation. These traits are not, however, universal."

And I guess it might be quite true because Titus + BBMolla all share the same Location/Nation/Race. Presumably there's quite a few others who share that too. All I know is I share the wincon of either Titus/BBMolla and I don't share the same Location/Nation/Race combo, which is why I've been saying that race is totally unreliable. I would think it has some reliability now, but not nearly to the extent that people like A50/Copper would have us believe. I'm seriously finding it hard to believe it'd be close to 90% homogoneity, as suggested.

It's not 100% reliable, no, but flipping more player roles can assist in determining the overall reliability, especially those players who have questionable races and claims to begin with. My Role PM states Wulden are cult and evil. If someone comes in and claims a Wulden scan on a player, that player pretty much has to claim Wulden and then hope that the skepticism of the majority will save them. We flip that player, and they turn out to actually be what we would elude as a town role, then we also learn more to the overall setup as well.

The general majority can scan Location and Nation, these two flavors don't seem alignment indicative, but might have a role to play in some other way (ie. certain actions can only be used on them). Race cops are rarer, and I feel like in general, their results carry more weight in the detection of scum and town. Faction Cops will probably be the rarest, and their results should have the most weight as to the alignment of a player.

[Toogeloo]

Until I get definitive proof other wise, I will auto-assume any flip with Redacted Factional information is scum, and if they had a fake claim it'd likely be there (as Mastina pointed out somewhere).

[Cephrir]

Drams win condition is not scum because at least 6 other players are currently claiming to have it, your brilliance.

[Toogeloo]

Would they all flip with "REDACTED-FACTIONAL" as well?

[Stormblade]

Would they all flip with "REDACTED-FACTIONAL" as well?

I will. mastin has confirmed Kuroi's wincon as town, btw.
-Nahdia

[Stormblade]

@Mod: Was Kuroi's win condition a Town win condition?

I advise to read the mechanics post, and then refer back to his flip.

Refers to the part where town win conditions are "eliminate threats" and scum win conditions are "control 50%".

[Stormblade]

Which is also in dram's wincon. Which is my wincon; the redacted info is our PT.
-Nahdia

[Toogeloo]

So, why would dram's wincon contain the caveat that at least one of that faction needs to survive to win?

[Stormblade]

So, why would dram's wincon contain the caveat that at least one of that faction needs to survive to win?

Because presumably if we're all dead, the New Humanity Treaty won't benefit us anymore...?
-Nahdia