Gistou (Over!)

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Wow. board went all crazy apparently lol.

ASOIAF: No, before mathblade pointed out that scum could have redirected Luna to herself, I was CERTAIN the result had been tampered with. Once he pointed that out, I realized it actually made WAY more sense for scum to just utilize a redirect as a roleblock in the situation they were in, so it is no longer reasonably likely that a redirection was performed.

however, I would still like to hear SS' claim and see if the wagon composition has done anything to their reads list.

-Cerb

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how can you be certain that the scum faction with access to that hood has a redirection ability in the first place?

I'm not, but given that SS' reaction to the result on him didn't(and still doesn't) make sense for scum, the only reasonable assumption was that Luna had been redirected.

Like, say Luna were to receive a guilty on you. You know you're town. Therefore the result was interfered with. Most likely avenue of interference, given that she stated she didn't claim who her target was in the hood, and the hood knew she was a faction cop? A redirector.

That's basically the line of reasoning I used to conclude Luna had been redirected. It doesn't make sense though for a redirector to risk allowing a guilty on themselves/one of their teammates, when they can simply shut down the faction cop.

-Cerb

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I also explained it several times, though it isn't like it matters anymore.

Alright! So, first, I have a very serious question:

HOW ARE YOU ALL SO FUCKING OBTUSE?????(Except for like, mathblade, and Nahdia...nobody else sees to fucking get it)

You have FOUR role PM's to look at, PLUS YOUR OWN, and the mods word saying that town factions eliminate all threats to them, and scum factions are trying to control the vote, and you SOMEHOW DON'T FUCKING KNOW WHAT A TOWN WIN CON WOULD LOOK LIKE?

Yes, members/a specific member of <town faction A> may be a threat to <town faction b> and so on, BUT THEY'RE NOT SCUM.

The part of everyone's PM that is aligned is the removal of those scum aligned slots, the ones trying to control the vote. The priority is removing fucking scum, not removing people who are obviously fucking town aligned based on their win condition claims, but might need to be removed for YOUR specific faction to win.

With that said.

We have two notable investigate results? One from <unknown member of luna's neighborhood> on SS, saying he is one faction, which he says he is not, and one from SS, on LLD, saying she is a wulden(and we know wulden is a generally anti-town race if we accept that the Luna/Stormblade/Copper 'hood is town, because they have been warned that there may be wuldens in there...clear implication is that wuldens are anti-town), but she says she's an individual wulden who wins with the town.

The entirety of the SS situation doesn't make sense. All Luna mentioned was SS' faction, which in and of itself doesn't mean anything because we don't know what the scum factions name(s) is(are). It literally makes no sense for scum!SS to claim the results on him must have been false, when the faction name alone isn't ACTUALLY a guilty. I'm inclined to believe he is actually this individual vampire faction simply because I'm going to attribute a base level of competence to their slot, and assume they wouldn't put themselves in a position where they're "caught" by a faction cop AFTER they've already heard the result, and the result wasn't an outright guilty.

Now, with that said, that brings up somethings that needs resolution: Luna, you asked SS how they would feel if you said your faction cop was "strong willed"...and then later on you said either he's lying or you had an unlucky redirect. The implication of strong willed is that the slot in question was empowered or otherwise guaranteed to have their actions resolve on their target. If that was the case, then there was no possibility of an unlucky redirect.

Which is it? Was there possibly a redirect, or is it CERTAIN beyond any doubt that this individual received SS' faction information?

For LLD: I don't think being wulden makes her automatically scum, BUT I do think the wuldens are generally scum aligned, based on the information given to us by Stormblade and their relation to their PT. This means that if she is scum, it makes perfect sense for her to claim "individual wulden" for her faction. Basically, her result is semi-null to me. Not impossible that she's an individual, but if she's scum, what she's done is exactly what she HAD to do as scum.

-Cerb

pedit: Ninja'd by Bins.

there's no reason to believe lld is scum unless you believe every race cop is essentially a faction cop

meanwhile we have an ACTUAL faction cop result

I've been over this Ceph.

SS's reaction just doesn't make sense. Just envision how this all plays out with SS!scum just rolling with the isolationist result. He goes yeah, I'm isolationist, so what? She says what's that factions win con? He says remove all threats. She says oh. okay.

...

That's it. I mean, maybe she keeps asking him more questions, but...that's CERTAINLY less suspicious than saying no. Your result must be wrong.

No way(well, okay, super friggin unlikely) that SS!scum goes with "naw man, your faction cop was totally redirected".

-Cerb

Ya but why would he ever hang his defense on "spinning the redirect possibility? Seriously, someone make me understand why they feel that's a reasonable response from scum given that nobody has a firm grasp on what factions and win conditions are town?

Like, that's the biggest problem I have with it. It's a super bad play for surviving today.

-Cerb

Pedit: it doesn't tell you that a redirect or block would always affect all actions. That is ABSOLUTELY just an assumption.

No, my point is NOBODY KNOWS WHAT ISOLATIONIST MEANS.

Like, if he's scum, and he KNOWS the town can't even figure out whether or not their own slots are town, why wouldn't he just say yes, I'm this faction, and it's a town faction??

He gets lynched if one of his teammates flips later, but if the alternative is getting lynched today 90% of the time why would he ever choose that?

-Cerb

Pedit:this isn't a normal game. I absolutely agree with the theory, but when there are a fuck ton of factions it doesn't make sense.

-Cerb

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w8 luna claimed before ss claim their faction?!

this is really hard to investigate. can someone confirm this or deny it?

SS saying "now man , you got redirected" can be from his town or scum. I can see it more from his scum tbh.

and yeah I think the way they claimed "individual vampire" and tried to prove its town is something to consider of. it can be from a SS who is cought in somthing and needs to stay consistant about the faction they claimed till the end though so its NAI.

~Ice

Yes, FA, Luna claimed the result she got before SS claimed his faction. This is what I spent forever trying to express earlier.

However, it doesn't matter.

It's just as unlikely that a scum redirector would use their power to frame, as that SS would hang their defense on the whole redirection thing when they didn't have to, making it all null, so we end up with a result on him that doesn't match the faction he's claimed.

-Cerb

[RAM]

RAM can you acknowledge at least that you read my explanation as to why redirector that redirects all actions is possible?
Because im not sure if you missed it.
Probably not relevant now, but might be relevant later.

I never saw an explanation of why it's possible(unless you're talking about where you quoted the bit of the mechanics post stating that the checks may be blocked/fail), but an explanation of that was never necessary. It's ABSOLUTELY possible, but it is shortsighted to assume that's how one would function.

-Cerb

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I meant this:

If every slot has a secondary check which is also messed with, it functionally gives anyone who is redirected a very easy way to discover that they were redirected

Not necessarily tho?
In my case it's because everyone mass claimed N/L in the hood, but for anyone else, or even people not in a hood, they wont be able to tell the difference between a redirected secondary check and a correct one.

Yeah it's irrelevant as of right now.
But it might be relevant in the future when someone else claims an scan result.
I just dont want it to be lost in case i get NK'd or something.

As soon as either the person they targeted flips, or any sort of question begins to come up about their result accurace, all they have to do is say "I also x checked y. Can you please confirm z is the correct result?"

Then, if it's not, they know they were likely redirected. I mean, we saw this come into play today, when Nahdia double checked SS' nation(right? I don't remember) in order to confirm that he hadn't been bus driven.

Basically trivializes the deceptive aspects of the role, but it does still leave the purely mechanical things they could do with it.

-Cerb

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Rachmarie, the day will be over by tomorrow, SS is at L-3 and the only person who defended them much (myself) has lost all reason for doing so.

-Cerb

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Lol, no, go work, just making you aware of the game state.

-Cerb

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Implausible, not impossible. *shrug*

-Cerb

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Who guiltier it and what did they claim?

Luna Fox, and she said you weren't Undead Risen Slave or whatever the fuck that faction for the PT is supposed to be.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Lol I was like what, 8 votes, then realized that vc is 300 posts old.

-Cerb