DEFCON Mafia 4.0 - СЛАВА РОССИИ МАТЕРИ

[Andrius]

VoteCount

Untrod Tripod [7] - mastina, Papa Zito, Cheetory6, Ser Arthur Dayne, xRECKONERx, Nukebringer, SpyreX
Something_Smart [7] - GuyInFreezer, Untrod Tripod, RedCoyote, Cephrir, Accountant, MagnaofIllusion, Spiffeh
Vaxkiller [3] - GreyICE, Lady Lambdadelta, Fate
Ircher [2] - McMenno, ErrantParabola
McMenno [1] - Ircher
GuyInFreezer [1] - Something_Smart
SpyreX [1] - Vaxkiller

Not Voting [2] - hiplop, Nahdia

With 24 alive it will take 13 to lynch.

It is now DEFCON 3. Day 1 will last until December 4th, 2016, at 13:00 hours.
COUNTDOWN: (expired on 2016-12-04 17:00:00)

Ser Arthur Dayne is V/LA until Friday.
MagnaofIllusion is V/LA this week.
Spiffeh is V/LA this week.
Papa Zito is V/LA this week.
Firebringer is V/LA this week.

[Something_Smart]

A) I would rather lynch SS
B) Scum are never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, going to waste a kill on you if you're town

the terrorist might tho

I form reads by reading what the person says and taking a lot of small things into account. But I can't take notes because it would disrupt my thoughts and I don't have a god memory, so it's a pain for me to explain reads.

So you form reads by taking many small details into account. And you have a not so godlike memory so it is hard to explain it. But you don’t do the one thing that would make your playstyle effective (taking notes)?

This so can die …

yes. I don't have the patience nor the concentration.

and also I don't think it would make much of a difference because when I do explain my reads in depth people usually just ignore them anyway.

so I usually just focus on figuring things out for myself, and if other people don't agree, sucks to be them. (not a terribly team-minded approach, I realize. but I've been unable to invest enough time and focus into the game recently because of other stuff, so I'm due for a break anyway.)

By the same token, the fewer people left in the game, the more initiative I can take in explaining stuff. In other words my content level will increase as the game goes on.

“Just leave me alone so I can coast I promise I’ll be more effective at faking Town later in the game”

ok bro

I already said that people could ask me about stuff and I'd answer as long as they didn't ask me about everything.

That's not how this works.

it's how I work. see above.

Vaxkiller because he tried to defend Ircher's post by accusing me of a misrep while making a misrep himself, he tried to appeal to people defending him, and his tone is very stilted and doesn't feel like town under unjust pressure.
Ircher because his readlists contained numerous strange reads with weak or basically nonexistent reasoning (Cheetory, SpyreX, mastina, Cephrir, Reck, and me in particular).
Nukebringer because gut. Well, more than that, it seems like Firebringer is trying to imitate his town play and not doing a very good job of it.

What are your thoughts on the posts not by Firebringer? (Hint: He's the nice head.) Also, what are your thoughts on the following: Lady Lambdadelta, Ser Arthur Dayne, MagnaofIllusion, RedCoyote, hiplop, mastina?

I can't really tell the heads apart and tbh due to the avi I'm kinda attributing anything to him. Are there any particular posts by you that you want me to look at?
I doubt I can read LLD well at all, but her posts seem solid. I'm also okay sheeping the majority on this, since most people I think know her better than me.
Sir Danish is pretty obv town.
MoI is icky and I don't know if he believes his pushes. Will look more into that later.
Haven't really been paying much attention to RC's posts, offhand I can't see anything wrong about him.
Does hiplop even have content?
IMO most of the crap mastina's been pulling is towny though I'd admit that she seems like someone with whom experience is very helpful.

oh hey I finally rolled town in a large
but now I have 23 slots to sort...
I'll probably just sheep people who are actually good. (Which is like, everybody. Except me. )

this is the slot people are trying to save

look at that post and tell me that it's from town

lmao

[Untrod Tripod]

oh hey I finally rolled town in a large
but now I have 23 slots to sort...
I'll probably just sheep people who are actually good. (Which is like, everybody. Except me. )

this is the slot people are trying to save

look at that post and tell me that it's from town

I realize it's been a while and there's been 92 pages of bullshit since then

but that post is so fucking scum

[Fate]

VOTE: UT

[mastina]

mastin are you twon

No, I am not twon. I am, however, town.

[mastina]

I was gonna say cheeky bastards mimic me

Cheeky bastard! That's a fine word for what I was looking for. Butyeah. The scum in the PT probably said that line to be a cheeky bastard mimicking GreyICE.

As a result, I don't think GreyICE is scum.

[mastina]

Anyway I still support a Vaxkiller lynch.

I don't, and here's why.

What if, say, Vaxkiller was a cop instead? What if we knew that the roles capable of consistently fucking with said cop were gone?
That would leave a scum-Vaxkiller forced to consistently give accurate results, narrowing down the POE pool...
...Or force the scum to kill a town-Vaxkiller.

Vaxkiller claimed, and has used, his role in the most pro-town manner possible.
So where do you draw the line?

At a certain level, the mechanical benefits of a player > the play shortcomings of a player. ESPECIALLY when it comes to an automatic role. Vaxkiller cannot fuck up by targeting a player nobody wants targeted, for instance. Vaxkiller cannot claim to be blocked.

Now Vaxkiller was on my shortlist, sure.
But he wasn't actually on my scumlist.
I thought it was possible he was scum. It still is possible.
However, it is less likely than it was before. While it is not impossible for Vaxkiller to have been coached into taking that role as scum. While it is not impossible for Vaxkiller to be faking the results of the role. (Doubtful.) The explanation which makes the most sense to me is that Vaxkiller did indeed take the role.

Plus, his claim makes sense. Cop first means some third player got it. (Cop was my first.) Espionage second for him explains why I didn't get Espionage when it was my third. I buy what he's selling, and I say: let him live. See what the scum do. We know he doesn't have nukes. We also know he is not immune to nuking. We also know that his power if legitimate is a potential threat to the scumteam. So fuck lynching him, there are much better people we could eliminate D1. We can reconsider come D4. Not a day sooner.

[mastina]

What do you say to the idea that scum would want town to have Eavesdropper? As scum, I would prioritize the troops much differently. Further, scum had no idea that Toog/Vax would be in a situation to claim D1.

While I disagree with the premise of scum not knowing Vaxkiller would need to claim (he was being suspected well before Defcon 3, meaning people had time to predict the obvious), I agree with the conclusion that Vaxkiller is more likely town.

But that's at least in part because you're white knighting and I don't think that's defending a scumbuddy. Vaxkiller if scum isn't worth defending from a scumteam's point of view. So, Vaxkiller being defended by scum is being defended by players who know Vaxkiller is flipping town.

[GuyInFreezer]

Uh

[mastina]

If we let this go what's stopping us from letting anyone who roleclaims go

Subjective measures: psychology. Objective measures: usage.
What I mean by that is, it depends on the player, and how they use and justify their role. Vaxkiller's usage and justification are reasonable from town: it makes sense, and fits with the facts we have at hand. It makes extra sense coming from a player like Vaxkiller as well. It cannot, of course, actually clear Vaxkiller, but if you ask which seems more likely, town or scum-who-were-coached-step-by-step-on-what-to-say-and-do, the town option is in fact simpler. (Not necessarily correct, but simpler all the same.) And given the choice between a simple explanation of being town, versus a convoluted explanation for being scum, I'm probably going to assume the former until I have a much better reason to believe the latter.

Now then, for other players, we can force the same standards on it. Who that player is: their general personality, along with their experience. Knowing them, what makes sense for them to pick? What power was picked: is it a town power, a scum power, or equal to both? Usage: how have they utilized it? In a good way, a bad way, or a way equal to both? Does that usage hold consistency with their personality? And so on and so forth.

This is not letting all roleclaimers go unscathed.
This is letting

this specific

roleclaimer go

temporarily

, until such a time as we can later reevaluate.

Vaxkiller does not get a free pass for the whole game.
But given my read on the situation (Vaxkiller is being defended by people likely to be scum), my stance on the matter is that right now, Vaxkiller is more than likely town.

[GuyInFreezer]

^
TL;DR - Occam's Razor, Vax is probably more town than scum.

[GuyInFreezer]

Anyway I still support a Vaxkiller lynch.

I don't, and here's why.

What if, say, Vaxkiller was a cop instead? What if we knew that the roles capable of consistently fucking with said cop were gone?
That would leave a scum-Vaxkiller forced to consistently give accurate results, narrowing down the POE pool...
...Or force the scum to kill a town-Vaxkiller.

Vaxkiller claimed, and has used, his role in the most pro-town manner possible.
So where do you draw the line?

At a certain level, the mechanical benefits of a player > the play shortcomings of a player. ESPECIALLY when it comes to an automatic role. Vaxkiller cannot fuck up by targeting a player nobody wants targeted, for instance. Vaxkiller cannot claim to be blocked.

Now Vaxkiller was on my shortlist, sure.
But he wasn't actually on my scumlist.
I thought it was possible he was scum. It still is possible.
However, it is less likely than it was before. While it is not impossible for Vaxkiller to have been coached into taking that role as scum. While it is not impossible for Vaxkiller to be faking the results of the role. (Doubtful.) The explanation which makes the most sense to me is that Vaxkiller did indeed take the role.

Plus, his claim makes sense. Cop first means some third player got it. (Cop was my first.) Espionage second for him explains why I didn't get Espionage when it was my third. I buy what he's selling, and I say: let him live. See what the scum do. We know he doesn't have nukes. We also know he is not immune to nuking. We also know that his power if legitimate is a potential threat to the scumteam. So fuck lynching him, there are much better people we could eliminate D1. We can reconsider come D4. Not a day sooner.

TL;DR - Oops I messed up on the order he thought he claimed. Never mind me.

[mastina]

VOTE: Something_Smart

By the way, this was some pages ago, but I wanted it noted here all the same since it's a good reminder:
RedCoyote basically said that Ircher was a fine candidate for being scum...and voted someone else. I don't remember who, but I remember thinking it was a player less likely to be scum (could be mistaken).

Ircher, similarly, noted RC as being someone who was likely scum...and then voted that same person. (McMenno?)

I'll have to track down that exact spot, because I'm surprised nobody else noticed that.

[GuyInFreezer]

What do you say to the idea that scum would want town to have Eavesdropper? As scum, I would prioritize the troops much differently. Further, scum had no idea that Toog/Vax would be in a situation to claim D1.

While I disagree with the premise of scum not knowing Vaxkiller would need to claim (he was being suspected well before Defcon 3, meaning people had time to predict the obvious), I agree with the conclusion that Vaxkiller is more likely town.

But that's at least in part because you're white knighting and I don't think that's defending a scumbuddy. Vaxkiller if scum isn't worth defending from a scumteam's point of view. So, Vaxkiller being defended by scum is being defended by players who know Vaxkiller is flipping town.

TL;DR - lol no scum would defend Vax scum.

[SpyreX]

SPYREX WHAT IS THIS AFTER I GAVE ]REASONS] AND EFFORT

Looook i smell how its going I'll go back shresh

[SpyreX]

Like voting ut just hurts guys

[GuyInFreezer]

Like voting ut just hurts guys

???????????????

[SpyreX]

Shh you're not guys

[mastina]

Hmm, looking at a dual iso of the two, not sure I can quite pinpoint anything. That being said, it did get me to these.

This. I don't know if I'm going to vote Vax, but I see nothing worthy of defense thus far.
---

If my post is a "lie" then we need to lynch you for lying as well.

I've been trying to fairly evaluate this statement, and it just doesn't read to me like an honest town-sided attack. It reads most logically like desperation. This is probably the first non-weak point against townVax. He's reaching and I don't get the feeling like it's an honest reach but rather him trying to fumble together some sort of attack.
---

Lol
VOTE: Untrod
Sound case by Reck.

This lends support to what McMenno said earlier. This is clearly a piggyback vote, and I don't like it. Ircher is very obviously trying to do whatever he can to distract from the Vax wagon. I'd have felt much better about this vote had Ircher shown engagement with UT and/or Reck.
---

UT is basically trying to act like SpyreX and he sees the funhappyjoketimes as his way to blend in but spyspy is actually making real thoughts & stuff underneath it all so UT is just wearing a shitty Party City knockoff SpyreX mask

meanwhile I'm just glad you actually feel confident about a read in a mafia game, even if it's wrong
have you considered that maybe, just maybe, I just have a deepseated desire to nuke shit and the beginning of the game was entirely bullshit from everyone and I just didn't care
but nooooooo you want to be Mr Party Pooper and vote no to nukes all day every day

This is a cop out.
---

McMenno and ErrantParabola are still voting for Ircher. Would be willing to bet I could get minimum one scum flip by nuking both.

I can ride with this.
---

Um what? McMenno has substance in his posts? Look at that ISO and tell me McMenno has one tiny spec of substance. It is Lol-worthy that this even came out of anyone’s keyboard period but the Night and Day between surgeon-like dissection of Vax and “Herp-A-Derp McMenno’s got substance” has to trigger alarm bells people.

This is a solid point, but it needs to be filed under 'L' for Let's Cross The Bridge When We Get There.

Random notes: SAD vs LLD is town on town, I think.
Townie vibes from SAD, Accountant, Reck, and Cheetory
Scummy vibes from Vax, Ircher, McMenno
Reck's case on UT is :goodposting:.

Since we have time, I'm going to VOTE: McMenno. I would still say this slot is our best bet at nailing scum/terrorist, and I'd be happy to engage with anyone that is open to joining me. I think Vax is a decent wagon, however. I will not try to stand in the way of it and am very much open to supporting it.

^A little egregious, no?

[GuyInFreezer]

VoteCount

Untrod Tripod [7] - mastina, Papa Zito, Cheetory6, Ser Arthur Dayne, xRECKONERx, Nukebringer,

SpyreX

Something_Smart [7] - GuyInFreezer, Untrod Tripod, RedCoyote, Cephrir, Accountant, MagnaofIllusion, Spiffeh
Vaxkiller [3] - GreyICE, Lady Lambdadelta, Fate
Ircher [2] - McMenno, ErrantParabola
McMenno [1] - Ircher
GuyInFreezer [1] - Something_Smart
SpyreX [1] - Vaxkiller

Not Voting [2] - hiplop, Nahdia

With 24 alive it will take 13 to lynch.

It is now DEFCON 3. Day 1 will last until December 4th, 2016, at 13:00 hours.
COUNTDOWN: (expired on 2016-12-04 17:00:00)

Ser Arthur Dayne is V/LA until Friday.
MagnaofIllusion is V/LA this week.
Spiffeh is V/LA this week.
Papa Zito is V/LA this week.
Firebringer is V/LA this week.

[mastina]

Oh also we can only guess who as scum would value which troops over others so this discussion is pointless.

Half-true.

As a

team

, we cannot guess.

As

individual players

, we can. Some scum players are going to value certain roles far more reliably than other scum players. So you might not be able to say, "Scum would pick this", but what you

can

do is, saaaaaaaaaaaaay, "LLD as scum would pick this".

[mastina]

Oh yeah he didn't even put Eavesdropper first
Now I care even less about role arguments!

You're looking at that backwards.
Him not putting Eavesdropper first is

more

reason to care about role arguments.

Not less.

[GuyInFreezer]

Scum 1: I'm going to choose this this this
Scum 2: No. Get in the sea.

[mastina]

Has no one considered Vax fakeclaiming to draw out a disruptive role to scum?

If Vaxkiller isn't the eavesdropper, the eavesdropper fucking counterclaims no questions asked.
Dead scum > role that is marginally helpful. Period. End of discussion.

And we know the role's in the game too. As someone's top-or-second pick, because if it wasn't then *I* would have gotten it.
Vaxkiller fits the profile.

[Untrod Tripod]

Like voting ut just hurts guys

that's just because I'm wearing ur face, dawg