Modding Question: Order of Night Actions

[fool_on_the_hill]

Are there generally accepted rules about what order night actions should be applied in? I was going to post this in the AutoMafia thread concerning how the bot should handle night actions, but it's actually a general modding question. A game of Texas Justice Mafia has brought up the issue.

I'm talking about situations like, for example, a 'death triangle' where person A night kills person B, person B night kills person C and person C night kills person A. It doesn't actually make sense to me that all three die, given that tracker and watcher roles are based on the idea of people visiting each other's houses to perform kills. It seems to me that night actions should take place sequentially rather than simultaneously. On the other hand, this raises other issues like what happens if the mafia's designated killer dies (considering that their designated killer can be roleblocked).

Also, what if a roleblocker blocks another roleblocker who blocks a night killer or investigative role. It's actually impossible for both blocks to apply, so which takes precedence? - I would lean towards saying that blocks placed on roleblockers are ignored.

It only seems to be an issue when you have multiple roles performing the same action. Different actions don't seem to clash with one another.

[Mr. Flay]

Different actions have a fairly established order: roleblockers/switchers, protectors, investigators, killers, recruiters.

MOST of the time, all actions in the same tier are resolved simultaneously. Multi-kills can be thought of as taking place in public (A goes to kill C, is killed by B on his way to leave C's house). Roleblockers blocking each other isn't a problem, roleblockers blocking roleblockers who block other roles gets a little Schrödinger...

(which is one reason never to have more than one roleblocker)

.

Texas Justice, I would think, would handle simul-kills just fine, considering the showdown mentality inherent in the scenario...

[fool_on_the_hill]

Thanks. That all makes sense. I'm going to go with roleblockers not being able to affect each other for now (which makes sense in itself, IMO).

[Mr. Flay]

Also, recruiters can go as early as Step 3 if you're going to allow them to communicate the same night they are recruited into the Cult/Mason Lodge/whatever. Otherwise it prevents the weird "I was recruited and killed, so I lose with the Cult though I played as a Townie my whole life" problem:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7116

[Xylthixlm]

XylBot is currently using the following order, although finding a good one is rather hard:
1. Blocks, redirects, action copies, etc.
2. Protection abilities
3. Miscellaneous abilities not listed elsewhere
4. Kills
5. Recruits
6. Inspects

For roleblockers who block other roleblockers, etc., it uses a fairly simple algorithm that gives a sane result almost all the time. Simply find all the players who could possibly be roleblocked, and resolve any roleblocks by players who aren't on that list. Repeat until everything is resolved. If you end up with all the remaining roleblockers being possibly blocked, that means that they are pointing in a circle, and you can just ignore them all (or pick a random one to resolve first).

[Adel]

1. Blocks, redirects, action copies, etc.
2. Inspects & Protection abilities
3. Recruits
4. Kills

makes sense to me.

[Nemesis]

2. Inspects & Protection abilities
3. Recruits

So you'd let someone get an innocent result on someone about to be culted? O.O

That seems a little evil...

[Adel]

I <3 evil cults.

[Mr. Flay]

So you'd let someone get an innocent result on someone about to be culted?

If they're

about

to be culted (i.e cannot do anything Cult-related that night), then yes, I think this makes sense. They haven't done anything yet, and there's precedent for Cops generally looking at current guilt, not psychic guilt (one reason Cops sometimes get an Innocent on Godfathers so long as the Godfather refuses to kill that night).

[Nemesis]

I didn't say it wasn't logical, just it was evil. I didn't even say it was wrong.

If they're about to be culted (i.e cannot do anything Cult-related that night), then yes, I think this makes sense.

Well, it'd be like a cop seeing someone midway through an entrance ritual... So flavourwise it could go either way.

As they arn't actually a fully functioning member of the cult, I could see why the cop wouldn't get a guilty. (Although I'm not sure when a "You have been culted" pm finds a person and when they can do whatever cults do at night.)

My surprise comes pretty much only from the bastard moddery and the fact that cults are strong enough. I didn't think stuff like this would work in their favour.

They haven't done anything yet, and there's precedent for Cops generally looking at current guilt, not psychic guilt (one reason Cops sometimes get an Innocent on Godfathers so long as the Godfather refuses to kill that night).

So a n0 investigation used on a SK who doesn't choose to kill, that would be another psychic reading thing... Yet no one does that to a sane cop... At least, I don't think they do.

Logic vs fairness/morals/ethics vs flavour is always an interesting thing to see.

I <3 evil cults.

You've gone from respected pillar of the community to kinky and twisted all in 2 posts.

Edit: And I like it.

[Xylthixlm]

"Pillar of the community"? How appropriate. That's my name for a death-anti-miller mafioso.

[Adel]

You've gone from respected pillar of the community to kinky and twisted all in 2 posts.

you must've missed it when I got sick of the lolzcats meme and started posting pictures of dead kittens.

[Nemesis]

You've gone from respected pillar of the community to kinky and twisted all in 2 posts.

you must've missed it when I got sick of the lolzcats meme and started posting pictures of dead kittens.

Well that depends, did you give the dead kittens captions?

[somestrangeflea]

Also, what if a roleblocker blocks another roleblocker who blocks a night killer or investigative role. It's actually impossible for both blocks to apply, so which takes precedence? - I would lean towards saying that blocks placed on roleblockers are ignored.

In "blocker chains", I resolve all choices by starting at the end with an unblocked blocker, and work forward.
For example:

Blocker A => Blocker B => Blocker C => Mafia

Nothing prevents Blocker A blocking Blocker B, so Blocker B is blocked.
Since Blocker B's blocking is null, Blocker C is able to nullify the mafia's kill.

If a Blocker D was added, and Blocked either Blocker A or Blocker C, then the Mafia kill's would go through.

[Xylthixlm]

How about some

interesting

resolution questions...

A, B, and C are roleblockers. D is an action motivator who can give another player an extra night action. E is a mafioso. D motivates A, who blocks B and E. B blocks C. C blocks A. E tries to kill someone. What happens?

Code: Select all

            =block=> E
          /
D =mot=> A =block=> B =block=> C
          \                   /
            <======block=====

How about the same scenario, except C blocks D?

[JDodge]

How about some

interesting

resolution questions...

A, B, and C are roleblockers. D is an action motivator who can give another player an extra night action. E is a mafioso. D motivates A, who blocks B and E. B blocks C. C blocks A. E tries to kill someone. What happens?

Code: Select all

            =block=> E
          /
D =mot=> A =block=> B =block=> C
          \                   /
            <======block=====

How about the same scenario, except C blocks D?

That depends. What colour is the cheese danish at the center of the hearts of men? Is it possible that this danish is really a pineapple?

[somestrangeflea]

How about some

interesting

resolution questions...

A, B, and C are roleblockers. D is an action motivator who can give another player an extra night action. E is a mafioso. D motivates A, who blocks B and E. B blocks C. C blocks A. E tries to kill F. What happens?

Code: Select all

            =block=> E =kill==> F
          /
D =mot=> A =block=> B =block=> C
          \                   /
            <======block=====

I edited the above situation to make it wasier for me to understand...

Roleblockers cancel out any and all night actions that person makes, regardless of how many they have. ABC are in a loop, so you can ignore them. E kills F.

How about the same scenario, except C blocks D?

Code: Select all

            =block=> E =kill==> F
          /
D =mot=> A =block=> B =block=> C
\                             /
<==================block=====

This situation wouldn't happen, since Blocker A would not be given the opportunity to make a second choice until the motivators status was confirmed.

[SensFan]

How about the same scenario, except C blocks D?

Code: Select all

            =block=> E =kill==> F
          /
D =mot=> A =block=> B =block=> C
\                             /
<==================block=====

This situation wouldn't happen, since Blocker A would not be given the opportunity to make a second choice until the motivators status was confirmed.

That depends on if blockers get priority or the motivator.

[Jester]

How about the simpler question: mafia NK's vig. Vig NK's mafia member. Do these happen simultaneously? What about a situation where the mafia have to choose the killer? If the mafia killer NKs the vig and the vig happens to NK the mafia killer, do they both die?

Sounds like the answer is yes in both cases. If so, without a RB or a mafia doctor, is there ever a situation where the mafia can prevent a vig kill?

[gorckat]

If so, without a RB or a mafia doctor, is there ever a situation where the mafia can prevent a vig kill?

Yeah- they can not look guilty in the first place

[The Fonz]

Kills should take precedence over investigations. That way, you avoid the scenario where a cop who somehow manages not to know he's been killed discloses his results.

[Mr. Flay]

Kills should take precedence over investigations. That way, you avoid the scenario where a cop who somehow manages not to know he's been killed discloses his results.

This. Sometimes I confirm to a dead cop that they've found scum with their dying action, but only if it's a player I know and trust not to spill the beans, and I still mention their death in the investigation reveal PM.

[undo]

What happens when a vigilante chooses to kill a SK and that SK chooses to kill that vigilante?

[The Fonz]

They both die, and the mod has the opportunity for some awesome flavour.

All kills are simultaneous, for game rather than flavour reasons.

[Kelly Chen]

What happens when a vigilante chooses to kill a SK and that SK chooses to kill that vigilante?

You just blew my mind.