Mini 1962: Magical Girls Mafia II (Day 4)

[Mulch]

gg guys

The gladiator play was non tactical elli wanted some way to gladiate statusquo cause they thought it would be funny, and I found an excuse to make it happen

Plus I thought it would be funny too

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like I was gonna lynch Panzer today, and they can't kill me because commuter.

So... I dunno? I feel like if you don't quick vote Kokichi (who I was town reading tbh) maybe we win?

But honestly, I probably lynch you Mastina, so we lose either way.

[Mulch]

Honestly lynching the cop that day was critical, did they have a guilty on us?

[mastina]

Mastina, you quick voted in lylo....

Yes, and I knew the risk when I did so. I knew very full and well and good the exact risk I was taking. It backfired, and when I cast the vote, I was quite aware of that. In fact I even noted that Elizibereth and Panzer who I knew to be scum were hanging around potentially looking for a quickhammer. (Though I wrote it off because I thought that for Kokichi to be town, you would need to be scum and as I didn't think you were scum I didn't back out.) I did it anyway.

I already said I will take full fault for being wrong on Kokichi, and every consequence therein. Up to and including the loss today. It wouldn't have changed anything though if I had waited ten days. Kokichi's claim of being a doctor on two of the nightkills the night they died with no mention of a N1 action would have me believing by occam's razor that Kokichi was a scumfuck because even though it ended up being the case, which would YOU think more likely?
That Kokichi is a town doctor who protected the nightkill twice in a row and yet was somehow foiled by some mysterious ungated roleblocker and/or strongman...
...Or that Kokichi was scum fakeclaiming?

NO amount of time would change the circumstances making that shit look like a scumclaim.
(And, really GIF? You put in an ungated strongman against a doctor with the only investigative being a tracker with a 1x cop? There was no way that could be considered balanced in my mind so I'd never have believed it. That makes the doctor absolutely worthless guaranteed.)

[Ellibereth]

Nah, they didn't.

Mulch and I thought we were obvscum the whole game lul. We were just covering each other because a few things we did only one of us could "fake".

[Mulch]

(And, really GIF? You put in an ungated strongman against a doctor with the only investigative being a tracker with a 1x cop? There was no way that could be considered balanced in my mind so I'd never have believed it. That makes the doctor absolutely worthless guaranteed.)

Considering this was one of the most townsided setups I had ever seen

I think it was fine

[Mulch]

Nah, they didn't.

Mulch and I thought we were obvscum the whole game lul. We were just covering each other because a few things we did only one of us could "fake".

Exactly

[Ellibereth]

Shea's ability cop practically guilties me and panzer becuz we have "scum abilities"

[Ellibereth]

Ali's ability pseudo guiltied too in a way iirc.

+ 2 all town nhoods + conditional IC + A50 gettingmeta confed

[Chara]

That Kokichi is a town doctor who protected the nightkill twice in a row and yet was somehow foiled by some mysterious ungated roleblocker and/or strongman...
...Or that Kokichi was scum fakeclaiming?

honestly, scum fakeclaiming protects on the nightkills is what doesn't sound likely to me. it's a very strange fakeclaim.
but the day was over before i could post. :<

[chesskid3]

nah its ok Elli I agree with Mastina you played a bad scumgame despite the perfect win and not even really being voted you were 'obvious'

[Ellibereth]

I mean being obv is fine if ur always the second choice.

[chesskid3]

O I was being incredibly sarcastic

[Maki Harukawa]

On a srs note gg everyone thanks for hosting Holy ^_^ this was fun

I was completely wrong about you, nice job.

<3 <3

[Mulch]

Can I quote a poste I read recently on anothe rserver

[Ellibereth]

Is it quick's quote.

[Maki Harukawa]

I think my power is the only one that doesn't get an auto guilty via the rolecop

this set up may feel scumsided to yall but it's only because you lost your best 3 powers in a row

[mastina]

But honestly, I probably lynch you Mastina, so we lose either way.

Exactly. Assume we managed to not have Kokichi vote me and let the scum quickhammer me.

If we lynched Panzer today, how would the night play out?
Probably Chara.

If Chara, then you either lynch me or Elizibereth the following day. If me, we lose then.

If Elizibereth, then the scum's only nightkill options are:
Nobody, me, or Kokichi.
If me, then that leaves Kokichi-LLD-Maki. Kokichi's stances were heavily in favor of voting LLD so scum win then.
If Kokichi, then that leaves mastina-LLD-Maki. This is honestly the scenario with the highest town win percentage, but I can't guarantee that I reevaluate and even if I did if you would lynch me then it wouldn't matter.
If nobody, that STILL leaves Kokichi-mastina unresolved, something I had wanted done from day fucking one and likely to result in a mislynch since the focus would be on everyone

except

Maki. Kokichi would be divided between us, I would be on Kokichi with you as a secondary, and unless you put attention on Maki you'd be focusing on one or both of us.

In most scenarios, we lose regardless.
First IF: me not voting Kokichi.
Second IF: Kokichi not voting me.
Third IF: Panzer being the lynch.
Fourth IF: Elizibereth being the next lynch.
Fifth IF: Who if anyone gets nightkilled before 3p/4p lylo/mylo.
Sixth IF: the mindsets behind players in a 3p lylo (because we never win the 4p mylo and only one lylo is viable for a town win).

That's why I was okay with the Kokichi vote. It was for

precisely

this reason.
If Kokichi was town, I knew that basically no matter what, the game wasn't going to be a town win. A loss today would be less painful than a loss down the road.
If Kokichi was scum, then the hope was that I would force the scum's hand. For instance, I felt like there was a significant chance I could expose Elizibereth as being scum for all the world to see openly (rather than just random tidbits here and there overlapped to vaguely suggest it).

Does that make it right?
Well of course not. It was wrong, the game was lost as a result of it, I deserve the blame for it and will accept the fault for it. But this is why I was okay with forcing the vote. I knew that I was going to be voted, likely by town, without drastic measures. I knew that if I was voted by town, then we would lose. My only hope of not being voted by town was to do something to ensure I wouldn't be voted by town.

The idea I came up with as my best bet for having done so was a 1v2. I considered expanding it even to a 1v3, but since I wasn't confident in Elizibereth and even had I been I wasn't confident in my ability to WIN a fight against Elizibereth, I decided that I'd only vs. them if they decided to gladiate which would expose their scum.

[Mulch]

I think people conflate

1) Being a good wolf

With

2) Having a balanced range / getting townread

It getting kind of old tbh...but maybe my viewpoint is really naive or too idealistic?





Having a balanced range is easy, just dont try so hard when villaging or be actively wolfy on purpose.

Getting townreads is easy, just townside or bus your bros. The single most tragic thing that happens in a game of WW is when a wolf busses and gets heat for the way he did it. Lol.

Getting villagers to kill each other and looking good while doing it is $#@!ing hard. This is the ultimate wolf play.




Your job as a wolf isnt to get townread, its to help the village as little as possible and get away with it. Some games the village lets you get away with more than other games (incidentally this is why subs are lame imo, because you cant plan for someone subbing in and calling you out for doing A, B or C. Which was acceptable to do in the pre-sub gamestate, but not after).

If you are feeling good, then you can start actively working against villagers and get away with it.


But people sit in the graveyard at endgame crying that so-and-so is openly wolfing, and that the village are a bunch of morons, then they refuse to give the open wolfer any credit because he was "obvious". He was obvious because your team let him be, being an "obvious wolf" without getting caught was his optimal play.
It wasnt flashy, it wasnt "award winning", but it did the most damage possible to the village.


Then some guy busses his entire team, survives 3 NKs (!?!?), and wins at LYLO because the village got complacent (or because the setup had too many mechanical clears, so the busser not dieing was "normal"). Then everyone calls him a WW god, and noms him as the greatest wolf of all time
Bussing is easy!

[Mulch]

Spoiler:

I think people conflate

1) Being a good wolf

With

2) Having a balanced range / getting townread

It getting kind of old tbh...but maybe my viewpoint is really naive or too idealistic?





Having a balanced range is easy, just dont try so hard when villaging or be actively wolfy on purpose.

Getting townreads is easy, just townside or bus your bros. The single most tragic thing that happens in a game of WW is when a wolf busses and gets heat for the way he did it. Lol.

Getting villagers to kill each other and looking good while doing it is $#@!ing hard. This is the ultimate wolf play.




Your job as a wolf isnt to get townread, its to help the village as little as possible and get away with it. Some games the village lets you get away with more than other games (incidentally this is why subs are lame imo, because you cant plan for someone subbing in and calling you out for doing A, B or C. Which was acceptable to do in the pre-sub gamestate, but not after).

If you are feeling good, then you can start actively working against villagers and get away with it.


But people sit in the graveyard at endgame crying that so-and-so is openly wolfing, and that the village are a bunch of morons, then they refuse to give the open wolfer any credit because he was "obvious". He was obvious because your team let him be, being an "obvious wolf" without getting caught was his optimal play.
It wasnt flashy, it wasnt "award winning", but it did the most damage possible to the village.


Then some guy busses his entire team, survives 3 NKs (!?!?), and wins at LYLO because the village got complacent (or because the setup had too many mechanical clears, so the busser not dieing was "normal"). Then everyone calls him a WW god, and noms him as the greatest wolf of all time
Bussing is easy!

This is a quote btw

[Ellibereth]

Is it quick's quote.

I like this one more, can u quote im on phone.

[Mulch]

Is it quick's quote.

I like this one more, can u quote im on phone.

"Well, I think Much is terrible as well. And you didn't even respond to most of my post here. Why would Ellibereth choose to hydra with Mulch? It makes no sense. It's like mixing TV dinners with high quality wine."

[mastina]

Considering this was one of the most townsided setups I had ever seen

How so?

We had:
-Tracker (not a good PR) with a 1x cop upgrade
-Doctor (against a scum strongman which nullifies the role)
-Conditional IC with a condition ridiculously hard to meet and which if met would be rewarding good townplay (i.e. lynching scum)
-Neighborizer (this is net-zero balance wise)
-Forced-commuter (this, with no neighborhood communication, is a negative utility role and should never have been used)
-Troll role which did nothing except randomly add something trivial (our quotes)
-Commuter/Motivator who has nothing to really motivate
-A one-shot doubler of our power limit which doesn't really do much of anything
-A lategame vig, midgame roleblocker (which probably fails against the strongman making this negative utility), and early-game active-ability-only rolecop (which could not catch any of the scumteam's powers as the scumteam's powers were almost all passives)
-An activated-ascetic motion detector.

None of these aside from the vig carry any power at all, given scum had:
-Free power generator OR Rolestopper (thus, nullifying a vig, nullifying a roleblock, nullifying a track, and shutting down literally any of the town's powers targeting scum, removing what utility they possessed)
-Unlimited-shot JOAT with Watcher/Ninja (bypasses the fucking tracker which is already a weak fucking investigative)/Commuter (bypasses the vigilante, bypasses the tracker)
-Unlimited Gladiator/Modified Redirector (this shit's gamebreakingly powerful in of itself)/Unlimited Strongman.

That you have the gall to call that townsided is atrocious.
The town has ZERO power here--the little power they have has not one, but MULTIPLE built-in counters.
Tracker? Ninja, rolestopper, redirector, and commuter.
Cop? Rolestopper, redirector, and commuter.
Vigilante? Rolestopper, FUCKING REDIRECTOR (WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK HAPPENS IF A TOWN VIGILANTE IS FUCKING REDIRECTED INTO FUCKING KILLING TOWN), and commuter.
Roleblocker? Strongman, Rolestopper, Redirector, and Commuter.
Modified Rolecop? Natural immunity thanks to their active abilities.

And that? That is the ENTIRETY of the town's offensive power.
The town's defensive power? A doctor?
Strongman and Redirector.

Zero defense.
Offense countered by MULTIPLE methods.
That's ridiculous.

Now if you think this is me mitigating the scum's victory because of a flagrantly-scumsided setup, oh no. Not at all. Scum earned the win fair and square I'll freely admit that. And town deserved to lose I won't claim otherwise in fact I'll absolutely insist on it. That doesn't mean the setup was anywhere even remotely close to balanced though. This is definitely, 100%, scumsided.

[mastina]

Shea's ability cop practically guilties me and panzer becuz we have "scum abilities"

Not by my understanding. They receive ONE, ACTIVE ability. (Which might even have said non-factional?)

You had a non-scum active ability: the gladiate.
Panzer had a non-scum active ability: the watch, and for that matter the commute.

It thus could not catch scum.

[Ellibereth]

Go read our gladiate, its conflated with forced redirect.

They also see all of panzers forms including ninja i think since the active is transforming.