Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[QuantumFruit]

@darkdude:

Talitha made some weird post restating the same thing in three consecutive posts
I point out weird behaviour (weird, not necessarily scummy)
QF says I was being mean

Which of course made no sense at all. When I talked about it she was still under the impression that I was being mean and telling talitha to "drop everything and play mafia".

I assumed everyone remembered so I didn't rewrite this in the last posts.

1.) How did she restate the same thing?
2.) First it's weird behavior she's lurking, then it's weird behavior that she's posting.
3.) Because of points 1 & 2, you're not giving her a fair chance.
4.) Also, accusing her of lurking is kind of mean given her reasons for doing so (3 children and Easter coming up).

I feel that it's reasonable for me to defend someone if I feel you're treating them unfairly and trying to latch on to a case that isn't there. I might have slightly blown it out of proportion, that is all. I am a fairly emotional person (I'm an artist, for goodness sake) and Akonas may attest to that.

So, it makes some sense, but it's not my usual cold logic. I can concede that, darkdude.

@EmpTyger: Actually, I haven't quite gotten the suspicion thing down because the only other mafia game I played in I was scum and it was very easy to lead everyone astray. So, I'm uncomfortable maintaining strong suspicions. The thing with darkdude, I dislike his playstyle completely but I don't especially have a gut feeling about him - I think I'd need a combination of the two to find it really suspicious.

Let's do a player analysis:

Cephrir - I can see how he would be latching on to me as a townie pet earlier, seeing if by agreeing with me he could get me to blindly support him. That wouldn't work with me. But, anyway, that's a possibility and I don't know that I necessarily believe it. I think he's been bad at defending himself, but it's a weak case which is difficult and frustrating to respond to.

thevampireofdusseldorf - I don't really know - he seemed pretty eager to get on Talitha's case, that accompanied with a hammer is reason to be suspicious of him.

Talitha - Seems pretty protown to me. I believed her excuse and she's been reasonable.

Pink Puppy - A bit hawkish, kind of building a weak case on Cephrir - that's either a scumtell or an aggressive playstyle. Haven't determined which yet all the way.

windkirby - I kind of forgot about him. He hasn't been posting much. He hasn't done anything big or fundamental, kind of stayed out of the heat (at least in my perspective). Staying in the background could be scummy. Kind of a not a quite lurking, but essentially that. Either scummy or busy. (Okay, now that I'm on page 27, I see he's posting. All previous statements were as of page 26.)

darkdude - You know my opinions of darkdude if you're not braindead. I don't particularly respect his intellect, and find much issue with his playstyle. Gut-wise, though, I'm uncomfortable lynching him because of mozsuggs and his alignment. Which is basically why I unvoted him - I don't know that I have ample reason to be suspicious of him other than personal distaste - though the "I didn't mean for this comment to be helpful" thing really doesn't aid his case. I dunno, he just doesn't seem to be putting much into this game, which is rather unfortunate.

vikingfan - He doesn't post much and his posts are always short.

Akonas - I feel uncomfortable assailing him with insults while he is at my house. It will suffice to say that though I am infinitely biased in these matters, his buddying up posts do cause me to raise an eyebrow. He's usually a bit meaner in these games, I think. Or more blunt, perhaps. In any case, he appears to have been attempting to assuage many of these conflicts, where he would typically have been in the heat of it.

EmpTyger - EmpTyger is playing well. Zeddicus did not...hmmm. Because there are two types of scum, the good kind and the bad kind. The bad kind are sloppy, the good kind are pretty meticulous, go through everything, form sound arguments...I'll have to go through zed's posts later.

--

In response to windkirby's post: Akonas, please confirm that I am terrible at making jokes and I over-explain everything.

Windkirby, you obviously were not going to get lynched for joke-voting Akonas or yelling at him or whatever it was I was defending him for. Clearly, it was a joke.

--

@darkdude: You're annoying. (And I'm a hypocrite because I'm being mean now.)

This is mafia. Like VoD said, do you expect us to give a hug before lynching? Lack of compassion does not mean hatred. So I see no need for you to interfere with my questioning.

Poorly founded? Any question is better than no question at all right? I'm not trying to set up and inescapable trap or anything. So if she answers with a good explanation then it's okay. If not then we could catch scum. Win-win?

I'm feeling you're giving me double standard here. Remember a couple pages back you wanted me to speak only the things I KNOW will be of use to town?

1.) I don't care who you hate. This is an issue of courtesy, completely irrelevant to the game. I was not suspicious of you for it. I didn't say, "Darkdude, you are a jerk, so you're scum." No.

2.) This is a game for entertainment for most of us, I believe. There is no reason to harangue players for their personal endeavors. That is the only point that I was making in reference to your treatment of Talitha.

3.) It's not only saying things you know will be of use to town. It's not saying things that will be of no use to town.

---

@Akonas: I think windkirby basically said he's voting for Cephrir for irregularities in his playstyle and at the same time he has a gut feeling darkdude isn't scum because he's such a newbie.

[Pink Puppy]

Wow. I don't like that post at all. You basically said how you can see everyone being scum or being town, and you're not sure yet on anybody. Which is useless fence-sitting. All you're doing is muddying the waters, and impeding progress towards a lynch, which is not helpful when we have a deadline. I've tried to have patience with you and your obviously different playstyle, but this is ridiculous. If we all played like you we'd no-lynch every day.

And I think you're being much meaner to DD than DD ever was to Talitha. You said you don't respect his intellect and that he is annoying. I really don't like that at all coming from a player I had decided was so protective of people's feelings. The fact that you said you know it's hypocritical, does not make it any better for me. Not being sympathetic about people's RL commitments < insults and name-calling.

The only person you feel particularly negative against is DD, although you say you think he's town! Thanks for showing up to insult another player, sit the fence on EVERYBODY, and NOT VOTE after a deadline is posted. This behavior is not pro-town. It confuses people who have to go through your post and try to figure out where you stand on things, and see that you stand in the middle of every issue, seeing all sides and committing to nothing.

unvote; vote QF

[darkdude]

I don't particularly respect his intellect

Doubt my play ability, sure. Doubt my intellect is stretching it I think.

Gut-wise, though, I'm uncomfortable lynching him because of mozsuggs and his alignment.

Logic > guts, wouldn't you agree? I have no clue what you're trying to do calling me scummy but avoiding a vote based on gut feeling which is contrary to all else you have said.

1.) How did she restate the same thing?

Apparently you forgot about how this started. I pointed out a weird instance where talitha basically made three consecutive posts, the first asking me a question, the second questioning VoD, and the third saying "yes you two please answer my question". This redundancy seems just a bit weird to me. So I asked her about it. Could there be any harm in that?

2.) First it's weird behavior she's lurking, then it's weird behavior that she's posting.

Correct. Accumulation of unorthodox behaviour certainly amounts to suspicion no?

3.) Because of points 1 & 2, you're not giving her a fair chance.
4.) Also, accusing her of lurking is kind of mean given her reasons for doing so (3 children and Easter coming up).

That's not the main point anymore is it? All she had to do was explain her lack of playing time. You know I wouldn't say "drop your kids and play mafia". So what is your point?

1.) I don't care who you hate. This is an issue of courtesy, completely irrelevant to the game. I was not suspicious of you for it. I didn't say, "Darkdude, you are a jerk, so you're scum." No.

But you did say "drop that line of questioning - it is mean".

2.) This is a game for entertainment for most of us, I believe. There is no reason to harangue players for their personal endeavors.

Quote me where I did that.

3.) It's not only saying things you know will be of use to town. It's not saying things that will be of no use to town.

Obviously you don't see the fact that sometimes there is no way to tell whether little pieces of information would or would not benefit town. When in doubt, revealing info is better than not correct? Best case scenario - town gains advantage. Worst case - town disregards it. I do not see the possibility of loss.

If you're saying that I was distracting town by saying useless stuff, then you should look at yourself and be reasonable. If you realize you are being hypocritical then why say it? Saying "he's mean" doesn't get the game anywhere.

[QuantumFruit]

@darkdude: Thank you, that was better.

@PinkPuppy: I felt the necessity to pick on him - it got a response, and a better one than he's given in a while, I think. Hurrah.

Anyway, there was reason to what I was doing, and I've already explained that I'm naturally indecisive. I don't feel that my caution is lynch-worthy, but I do understand your putting pressure on me after that post.

I don't have any strong gut feelings about this. Only a few people really actively post and that is a problem. Windkirby has just now started posting again (yes, he said he was going to be gone, but he hadn't been posting much before that either - his last post before he left was April 8th, three days before he was going to be gone). Vikingfan barely posts and it's very short when he does. That usually holds for Akonas, though he's been posting more lately. It's difficult do get a good feel. PinkPuppy is one of the more aggressive players (so quite different from my typical playstyle), but I'm getting a weird town vibe - but it's different from other town vibes I'm getting.

Akonas I was a bit suspicious of after his pseudo-helpfulness, but his posts are pretty logical now

Cephrir's kind of weak at this point. I could perhaps vote for him.

Darkdude was really frustrating me and I wanted a reaction. If he isn't scum, he should try to help town. I thought ad hominem would do the trick - and it did. If you recall, I did have my vote on darkdude before this wagon emerged, and then unvoted because of a gut feeling against it.

As I said, when I come back from Portland, I want to go through zeddicus's posts and analyze that behavior juxtaposed with EmpTyger's.

--

again @PinkPuppy: I was not completely wishy-washy. I stated whom I might have suspicions against, and stated who I did not currently have suspicions against. No, I can not at this point shout "

HE'S SCUM - SCUMMY SCUM SCUM!" and feel confident in doing so. I sincerely apologize for such misdemeanors.

Also, I'd rather have people with respect for others' commitments and mean humor than vice versa. Again, my jokes are not typically funny to most. I know this, and I keep doing it.

[darkdude]

I thought ad hominem would do the trick - and it did.

Oh really? Let's all insult each other to get results!

This is still contrary to your previously stated ideals. After all by this logic I could have been baiting Talitha into activeness, and thus it wouldn't go against your principles even if I did insult her.

I have the feeling you're suddenly shifting your stance here.

[darkdude]

By the way, intentional or not, you still have flaws in your explanation a few posts before. The points I make against you are still there. Are you suggesting that "oh I meant to do that" was supposed to settle those inconsistencies and suspicions I mentioned above?

[windkirby]

I'm not particularly comfortable with the way that QF avoided addressing DD's post 668 by saying "oh, well, it worked," as if, just because she claims she is satisfied, the conversation is automatically over and she has no obligation to defend herself against DD's more recent points.

I will not say that I would make a huge deal out of her telling DD & Ceph to back off of Talitha, and I will not say that I can't understand her seeing me vote someone she knows in real life and humorously jump to his defense, but her most recent two posts are definetely troubling to me. A) as I said, I don't like at all how she completely avoided addressing the points that darkdude had brought up (as dd and pp said, insulting a player that you're getting townie vibes from... useful how?), and B) as PP said, she seems unnaturally unopinionated, trying to paint herself gray so as not to trouble either side. Again, I reserve the right to change it, but for now,

vote: QuantumFruit

Also, my lack of posting prior to the competition has apparently been noticed; I would like to defend myself by stating that the preparation for it was very time-consuming, and therefore I felt it best if I concentrated on my other games, while keeping track of, but not posting in, this game. Not the best excuse, but now that OM is completely over for me, I don't think the lack of posting should be much of a problem from hereon.

[EmpTyger]

windkirby:
I want an answer to this. Did you vote Cephrir because you’re actually suspicious of him, or to stop me from voting darkdude? If because you’re suspicious, then why exactly?

[Cephrir]

This is interesting. QF's post was very fence-sitty (that's an adjective, deal with it), and I find myself (to my dismay) agreeing with PP's initial analysis of it. A player analysis giving no real opinions at this point is useless and "muddies the waters", so to speak. QF's previous behavior, I think, is protown enough to outweigh this; and I'm not sure this is even a tell.

I'd think a scum would fake something on someone, at least, and want to vote and influence the lynch in this high-pressure situation (unless all prospective lynches were town, I guess, but even then scum would still care or try to look like they did). Call it Wifom if you want; I just don't think a mafiate would fail to notice that their list of everyone gave no real opinions. Still pretty certain QF is town, maybe it's just because I tend to judge based on play as a whole and rarely vote based on a single post.

I would also like wk to answer Emp's question; that vote was a bit weird.

[darkdude]

Still pretty certain QF is town, maybe it's just because I tend to judge based on play as a whole and rarely vote based on a single post.

Well if you're going for WIFOM you may as well consider the fact that scum won't just generally try to be an obvious hindrance to the town. Therefore I think catching a few errors would outweigh any preconceptions.

Not to mention I found QF suspicious for a while now. That case with talitha was quite a few pages back.

[Akonas]

Basically, scumtells and playstyles are hard to tell apart?

That's what mafia is all about right? Otherwise it wouldn't be so hard.

Yeah. I was just pointing out that your post was somewhat convoluted.

I don't think there are many instances where someone is 100% sure. I'm not saying that we should only lynch with full confidence, but I'm merely giving an explanation to the divided opinions.

This seems contrary to PP and Cephrir's attacks on QF. What do you have to say to that?

---

Wow. I don't like that post at all. You basically said how you can see everyone being scum or being town, and you're not sure yet on anybody. Which is useless fence-sitting. All you're doing is muddying the waters, and impeding progress towards a lynch, which is not helpful when we have a deadline. I've tried to have patience with you and your obviously different playstyle, but this is ridiculous. If we all played like you we'd no-lynch every day.

And I think you're being much meaner to DD than DD ever was to Talitha. You said you don't respect his intellect and that he is annoying. I really don't like that at all coming from a player I had decided was so protective of people's feelings. The fact that you said you know it's hypocritical, does not make it any better for me. Not being sympathetic about people's RL commitments < insults and name-calling.

The only person you feel particularly negative against is DD, although you say you think he's town! Thanks for showing up to insult another player, sit the fence on EVERYBODY, and NOT VOTE after a deadline is posted. This behavior is not pro-town. It confuses people who have to go through your post and try to figure out where you stand on things, and see that you stand in the middle of every issue, seeing all sides and committing to nothing.

unvote; vote QF

Wow. I don't like that post. You basically just pounced. She's been like that all game; you acknowledged it yourself:

I realize Cephrir (and you) seem to have a different playstyle. A much more verbose, indirect style. I am trying to allow for that because I don't want to just suspect anyone who plays differently from me. BUT, the reason I do suspect it is because I think it can easily be manipulative. I like to be direct and concise, and I suspect people who aren't direct and concise, of hiding something. Not always, but it is something I watch out for. Dancing around the issue, answering it from the side, arguing about meanings of words... I am not a fan, and it makes me suspicious.

And you said it was suspicious before, but something bothers me here. What assuaged your suspicions on Cephrir? And why is this suddenly so scummy? If you want her suspicions, then

ask for them.

I am distressed by this latest sudden two votes on QF, especially windkirby's, especially because windkirby kinda just came back. However, I think I'd still be fairly happy with a darkdude lynch. It would clear up a few things; darkdude has the most controversy surrounding him, and a lynch would give us a lot of information (plus I consider him scum). However, I'm not going to vote 'till I come back.

[Crub]

Sixteenth Vote Count of Day 2

QuantumFruit (3):

darkdude, Pink Puppy, windkirby

darkdude (2):

Talitha, vikingfan

vikingfan (1):

Akonas

Cephrir (1):

EmpTyger

Akonas (1):

Cephrir

Not Voting (2):

thevampireofdusseldorf, QuantumFruit

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch, 3 at deadline in a little under 12 days.

[darkdude]

This seems contrary to PP and Cephrir's attacks on QF. What do you have to say to that?

I don't understand the question. I was giving an explanation on why people may seem to be obviously defending someone else. It is based on perspective of the playstyle, in the case when that behaviour is arbitrary. QF's case was based on her nonsensical accusation of me being mean. And most recently her case was the reaction.

This is irrelevant. I was saying WHY someone may be defending someone else (in the case of two players not being scum partners, obviously). This is completely different from whether that defense is good/logical or not.

[vikingfan]

I haven't forgotten about this game, but I have an important job interview tomorrow afternoon and will give my thoughts after that's done.

[windkirby]

windkirby:
I want an answer to this. Did you vote Cephrir because you’re actually suspicious of him, or to stop me from voting darkdude? If because you’re suspicious, then why exactly?

Oh sorry! I knew I was forgetting something.

I voted him mostly because I was suspicious of him, though I suppose not wishing to see dd near a lynch that is, IMO, undeserved, could have played a part. I am suspicious of Cephrir because I was getting a bad vibe from him, and also because I didn't like his large change from aggressive to passive. It wasn't huge, but he was the only player besides QF who really stood out in my mind, and I suppose I would've rather voted him to avoid dd getting lynched too fast. (I would hate to see a Day 1 rerun.)

[Pink Puppy]

Akonas, I kept thinking QF was gonna get better. She said things like, "I can't tell this early in the game", "I don't feel strongly enough yet." So, I was trying to give her a chance to figure out how she feels, if what she needed was time or something. The circumstances of a deadline coming and it being d3, just really rubbed me the wrong way. I really don't like it when people don't vote in situations like this. It is pushing us towards a no-lynch, which is anti-town. And it's not really playing the game if you just sit in the middle and let everyone else do the work, and don't even help by voting.

Cephrir said something about how mafia would be voting at a time like this. I don't necessarily think so. I have seen mafia wait in some situations -- because they're not sure they can get on a certain wagon without looking suspicious, or because not voting will further confuse the town, or because they want to force the town to act very close to deadline (increasing town mistakes), or because they want to force a no-lynch. Not saying mafia never vote, just saying that there are circumstances when it definitely benefits mafia to act like QF is acting.

Akonas: as to why I am not voting Cephrir... QF jumped out at me much more. I couldn't let it go. I still harbor a lot of the same suspicions on Cephrir, but I am open to looking at other people, even if I still suspect him to some degree. Usually, the way I play is to keep voting someone until I see something more scummy, then stay on that until I see something else I think is more scummy. Also, I felt like I got about as much out of Cephrir as I could. He knows how I feel, I know how he feels. Unless something new happens, we've already talked about everything.

windkirby's vote on cephrir to "save" darkdude is a little weird. Seems like windkirby sympathizes with DD, both being newbies, so that's why he did it. But I don't think that's really a good reason. And the "cop" insinuation (which he later said he didn't mean), is weird too.

[EmpTyger]

When darkdude and Cephrir’s alignments become known, windkirby is going to be mighty interesting to look at. And PP, too, although for the opposite reason- that dog did not bark.

---

windkirby:
I wasn’t voting Cephrir because I didn’t want to vote darkdude. I was voting Cephrir because I wanted to lynch him. So if that’s not going to happen:

unvote: Cephrir, vote: darkdude.

[darkdude]

When darkdude and Cephrir’s alignments become known, windkirby is going to be mighty interesting to look at. And PP, too, although for the opposite reason- that dog did not bark.

So what is your plan if I turn up town?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Been awol a couple of days and hmm I am pleased with the sudden pick of of activity.
A couple of things have stood out at me from a quick read.
1. The way in which PP "jumped" on QF. Now I can see this as her playstyle but I am getting a slight scum vibe from it for some reason. Maybe it is just the agression that is used in her posts towards rather small or slight issues.
Anyway this gives me a little concern and a good reason to keep a closer eye on her.
2. The relationship between Akonas and QF in this game. Yes I am aware of some relationship outside of this game but at times I have watched there interactions. Sometimes it is supportive sometimes antagonistic, but this seems to be more comments on how each other "is" as a person and not so much about how they are playing this game. As I thought earlier "I hope there is no conflict of iterest", so I would rather like to hear when each of you get back your thoughts about each others play in this game so far.

[vikingfan]

busy times for me right now. I'll respond to akonas as soon as I have a chance. For now though, QF has severely raised my antennae and I want to hear more from her. Cephrir has satisfied me so far with his responses pending further more info and I still see darkdude as my vote of choice- that hasn't changed.

[Talitha]

I am content with my vote.

(And should be around more often over the next week...yay!)

[EmpTyger]

I will probably not be able to post until after the weekend.

---

PP:
What do you think of the fact that darkdude and windkirby are the other 2 voting QF? For me at least, the list of those who are voting QF is making me relatively happy that I’m not…

---

darkdude:

When darkdude and Cephrir’s alignments become known, windkirby is going to be mighty interesting to look at. And PP, too, although for the opposite reason- that dog did not bark.

So what is your plan if I turn up town?

Hey, I was the guy who really wanted a Cephrir lynch today. vikingfan’s a better one to ask.

[darkdude]

Well if you want to lynch someone to get information then you should have a plan so that you can benefit town based on the revelation of the role.

If you can't think of any benefits, wouldn't it be better not to lynch the person? (benefits in the case that the player turns up town, not including when the player is obviously scummy)

[Cephrir]

You're right, if someone turning up town would be beneficial, we should let them keep cruising along, because obviously the point isn't to lynch scum

[Cephrir]

EBWODP:

wouldn't

be beneficial.