Mini 578 - Mistery at Montescuro - Game Over!


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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:27 pm

Post by Macavenger »

Guardian wrote:Mac, what do
you
think of my case on Foxy?
I think it's mildly weaker than my case on Vampaneze; worth a few questions and your own vote, but not exactly something worthy of trying to rally a full bandwagon over.

Which reminds me, since I don't really have much invested in my vote on VH right now...
Unvote; Vote: Guardian.
If what you're actually doing is scum hunting Guardian, I'd like to see some more persuasive results, or something that actually looks like scum hunting, soon. Right now it looks like random attempts to distract the town. I'm seeing merit in the play of a couple other players who are being obscure right now, but not yours.
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:56 pm

Post by Joudas »

Guardian wrote:How would you respond if I told you that Adel did a study near the end of last year showing that in 200 or so random minis, day ones where scum were lynched were on average about a page shorter than day ones where town were lynched (8.5 as compared to 9.5)? What if I also told you that she said that day ones where the town eventually won were shorter than day ones where the town eventually lost, to an even greater extent, about 2.5 pages (7.5 as compared to 10)?
I'd respond by telling you that there's a pretty sizable difference between 8.5-9.5 pages and 2 pages. I'd also respond by suggesting that that study should have counted the number of meaningful posts in those games, rather then the page count. You could have a 20 page game with only 2 pages of actual "useful" content. On the other hand you could have a 5 page game with 5 pages of useful content, and in this case, sure - you'd definitely get more out of the short game.

Honestly, though, the suggestion that players are too lazy to re-read threads is beside the point - that's a fault of the players.

I'd agree that having a day 1 that's too long is bad, as it gives the scum more opportunity to sow seeds of doubt and cause the town to second guess themselves - but having a day 1 that's too short is almost worse, as regardless of the outcome of the day 1 lynch, town has very little to go on for subsequent days.

As for Phox, I haven't seen anything to make me consider voting him. I find your case against him to be far too weak to warrant even considering a lynch.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:09 pm

Post by Guardian »

Macavenger wrote:
Guardian wrote:Mac, what do
you
think of my case on Foxy?
I think it's mildly weaker than my case on Vampaneze; worth a few questions and your own vote, but not exactly something worthy of trying to rally a full bandwagon over.
Peculiar... what is worth rallying a full bandwagon over? What is the criterion for a case being worth one's own vote, but not being worth attempting to gain further support?
Macavenger wrote:If what you're actually doing is scum hunting Guardian, I'd like to see some more persuasive results, or something that actually looks like scum hunting, soon. Right now it looks like random attempts to distract the town. I'm seeing merit in the play of a couple other players who are being obscure right now, but not yours.
What does scum hunting look like? You say my play is obscure... does that make it scummy? Why do you say I attempting to distract the town?
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:16 pm

Post by Guardian »

Joudas wrote:
Guardian wrote:How would you respond if I told you that Adel did a study near the end of last year showing that in 200 or so random minis, day ones where scum were lynched were on average about a page shorter than day ones where town were lynched (8.5 as compared to 9.5)? What if I also told you that she said that day ones where the town eventually won were shorter than day ones where the town eventually lost, to an even greater extent, about 2.5 pages (7.5 as compared to 10)?
I'd respond by telling you that there's a pretty sizable difference between 8.5-9.5 pages and 2 pages. I'd also respond by suggesting that that study should have counted the number of meaningful posts in those games, rather then the page count. You could have a 20 page game with only 2 pages of actual "useful" content. On the other hand you could have a 5 page game with 5 pages of useful content, and in this case, sure - you'd definitely get more out of the short game.
A good response. How do you decide what is useful content and what isn't? Which player in this game would you say has the most useful content in proportion to their total number of posts? Which player would you say has the least?
Joudas wrote:Honestly, though, the suggestion that players are too lazy to re-read threads is beside the point - that's a fault of the players.
I disagree, but my view is a minority view, possibly for good reason.
Joidas wrote:I'd agree that having a day 1 that's too long is bad, as it gives the scum more opportunity to sow seeds of doubt and cause the town to second guess themselves - but having a day 1 that's too short is almost worse, as regardless of the outcome of the day 1 lynch, town has very little to go on for subsequent days.
Reasonable.
Joudas wrote:As for Phox, I haven't seen anything to make me consider voting him. I find your case against him to be far too weak to warrant even considering a lynch.
Well, obviously you've considered voting him, I asked you to consider voting him. However, you reached the conclusion that he was not worth voting for. Do you see what I am classifying as (possibly intentional) WIFOM? Is WIFOM not meritorious of your vote at this stage in the game? Do you find your no vote (and FOS of me) a more useful state of affairs?
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:47 pm

Post by Macavenger »

Guardian wrote:Peculiar... what is worth rallying a full bandwagon over? What is the criterion for a case being worth one's own vote, but not being worth attempting to gain further support?
A 2 line suggestion of hypocrisy isn't worth bandwagoning. If you got a some kind of hugely scummy reaction from the accusation, that probably would be.

Why do you think your case on Phox does merit a bandwagon?
Guardian wrote:What does scum hunting look like? You say my play is obscure... does that make it scummy? Why do you say I attempting to distract the town?
Obscure play is not inherently bad. Yours, however, currently looks like trying to run the town in circles with inane theory questions, while making vague insinuations against lots of players. Asking lots of questions can be good scum hunting, but right now I feel like you're doing more twisting/distracting than looking for reactions. The discussion about length of days seems entirely pointless; you're leading in a direction so far from conventional wisdom that the discussion clearly belongs in the MD forum, not an active game. I can't see any purpose for making it in a game other than trying to make normal responses into scummy ones.

I haven't specifically demanded to know what you're doing yet because I know that if this is some kind of crazy scum hunting that I'm not experienced enough to recognize, revealing that would defeat the purpose. This needs to produce some tangible results or a better case than you have on Phox pretty soon though, or I'm going to start asking some pointed questions in that direction.

I'm currently quite suspicious of how hard you're pushing for votes on Phox. Multiple people have told you they don't find your case worth voting for, and you haven't produced any new accusations, but you're still fishing for more votes. Why?
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:52 pm

Post by PyroDwarf »

Guardian wrote:I legitimately am coming to the opinion that using meta is a bad policy.
guardian wrote:How would you respond if I told you that Adel did a study near the end of last year showing that in 200 or so random minis, day ones where scum were lynched were on average about a page shorter than day ones where town were lynched (8.5 as compared to 9.5)? What if I also told you that she said that day ones where the town eventually won were shorter than day ones where the town eventually lost, to an even greater extent, about 2.5 pages (7.5 as compared to 10)?
I lol'ed
Guardian, I don't see any case against Phox. I'm sorry if I am answering a question not directed at me, but this is just my personal opinion. You seem to be pushing really hard on phox, but your case is nonexistent.
I can at least see the logic behind sensfan's vote changing shenanigans, but you are to suspicious to pass up.
Unvote, Vote:Guardian

After re-reading, I'll put a FoS on VH, I agreee with Macavenger's post 61.
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:03 pm

Post by Singing Librarian »

Near wrote:
FOS VampanezeHunter
for not falling for OMGUS trap and voting for Dasquian or Macavenger.

FOS Joudas
for talking weird. Watch for post game restriction.
This is the most suspicious thing I've seen so far. An FOS for not falling into an OMGUS? That's about the most bizarre logic I can imagine. The rest of the thread is also making my head hurt, but that stands out as bad logic, so:

unvote

vote: Near
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:54 am

Post by Guardian »

Macavenger wrote:
Guardian wrote:Peculiar... what is worth rallying a full bandwagon over? What is the criterion for a case being worth one's own vote, but not being worth attempting to gain further support?
A 2 line suggestion of hypocrisy isn't worth bandwagoning.
Would it have been more worthy of bandwagoning if I wrote a full paragraph?

Hypocrisy and WIFOM aren't worth bandwagoning?
Macavenger wrote:Why do you think your case on Phox does merit a bandwagon?
My standards for bandwagoning are fairly low.
Macavenger wrote:
Guardian wrote:What does scum hunting look like? You say my play is obscure... does that make it scummy? Why do you say I attempting to distract the town?
Obscure play is not inherently bad. Yours, however, currently looks like trying to run the town in circles with inane theory questions, while making vague insinuations against lots of players.
Vague insinuations? The only insinuation I see that I've made is that Phox should get more votes.
Macavenger wrote:Asking lots of questions can be good scum hunting, but right now I feel like you're doing more twisting/distracting than looking for reactions.
Justify this.
Macavenger wrote:The discussion about length of days seems entirely pointless; you're leading in a direction so far from conventional wisdom that the discussion clearly belongs in the MD forum, not an active game. I can't see any purpose for making it in a game other than trying to make normal responses into scummy ones.
I've seen people respond scummily to theory discussion in games numerous times.
Macavenger wrote:I haven't specifically demanded to know what you're doing yet because I know that if this is some kind of crazy scum hunting that I'm not experienced enough to recognize, revealing that would defeat the purpose. This needs to produce some tangible results or a better case than you have on Phox pretty soon though, or I'm going to start asking some pointed questions in that direction.
I'm not sure why what I'm doing looks
that
crazy; I'm trying to garner responses and reactions from players, and I'm trying to get people to justify their actions and opinions.
Macavenger wrote:I'm currently quite suspicious of how hard you're pushing for votes on Phox. Multiple people have told you they don't find your case worth voting for, and you haven't produced any new accusations, but you're still fishing for more votes. Why?
Examining players reactions to intense scrutiny is one of the best ways of scum hunting. Examining players reactions to a call for a bandwagon is a close second.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:58 am

Post by Guardian »

PyroDwarf wrote:
Guardian wrote:I legitimately am coming to the opinion that using meta is a bad policy.
guardian wrote:How would you respond if I told you that Adel did a study near the end of last year showing that in 200 or so random minis, day ones where scum were lynched were on average about a page shorter than day ones where town were lynched (8.5 as compared to 9.5)? What if I also told you that she said that day ones where the town eventually won were shorter than day ones where the town eventually lost, to an even greater extent, about 2.5 pages (7.5 as compared to 10)?
I lol'ed
Why?
I'm talking about a very different kind of meta; there is a thread in Mafia Discussion about it if you'd like to read called 'On Ignoring Meta' or something.
PyroDwarf wrote:Guardian, I don't see any case against Phox. I'm sorry if I am answering a question not directed at me, but this is just my personal opinion. You seem to be pushing really hard on phox, but your case is nonexistent.
I'll ask you too -- WIFOM and hypocrisy are not meritorious of your vote?
PyroDwarf wrote:I can at least see the logic behind sensfan's vote changing shenanigans, but you are to suspicious to pass up.
Unvote, Vote:Guardian
Why?
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:35 am

Post by Evilgorrilaz »

Guardian wrote: Would it have been more worthy of bandwagoning if I wrote a full paragraph?
One small instance should not merit a bandwagon.

FoS: Near

Failing to OMGUS is not scummy.
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:35 am

Post by Evilgorrilaz »

oh, and
Unvote: Joudas
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:36 am

Post by Guardian »

Evilgorrilaz wrote:
Guardian wrote: Would it have been more worthy of bandwagoning if I wrote a full paragraph?
One small instance should not merit a bandwagon.
Why not?
Evilgorrilaz wrote:
FoS: Near

Failing to OMGUS is not scummy.
Why doesn't Near's FOS count as 'one small instance'? Why is Near worthy of a bandwagon for one small instance, but Phox isn't?
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:46 am

Post by Evilgorrilaz »

Why doesn't Near's FOS count as 'one small instance'? Why is Near worthy of a bandwagon for one small instance, but Phox isn't?
I believe that Near's logic was more faulty than JtP's.
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:13 am

Post by PyroDwarf »

Well guardian, I've read Phox's posts over and over, and I don't see the WIFOM or Hypocrisy that you speak of. The most suspicious thing about him is his post count, not content. I lol'ed because I didn't realize there was different types of meta... I suppose that makes sense. Maybe I would find you less suspicious if you showed exactly where Phox was so hypocritical.
Near's comments are odd. What do you mean Joudas is talking funny? I don't see any post restriction... What do you mean by this.
I still agree with Macavenger that VH is acting suspicious.
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:03 am

Post by Near »

LOL. It was a joke..
Show
Guys!! If RBD isn't scum, I'll video-record me eating my shoe and post it here!

Like, for REAL

Actually, I will hammer my cock.
That should be more fun.
I'll HAMMER my COCK and POST IT HERE.

RBD IS SCUM.
Lynch him and uncover the truth about RachMarie.

I'LL HAMMER MY COCK, MY BALLS, MY EVERYTHING.
RBD SCUM. ALL IN!!!!!!
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:07 am

Post by Near »

Seriously though, FOS everyone who accused me of being a scummy for my joke FOS's following my random vote. In particular,
FOS Singing Librarian
for nonrandom voting me because of it.
Show
Guys!! If RBD isn't scum, I'll video-record me eating my shoe and post it here!

Like, for REAL

Actually, I will hammer my cock.
That should be more fun.
I'll HAMMER my COCK and POST IT HERE.

RBD IS SCUM.
Lynch him and uncover the truth about RachMarie.

I'LL HAMMER MY COCK, MY BALLS, MY EVERYTHING.
RBD SCUM. ALL IN!!!!!!
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:20 am

Post by Guardian »

Evil, you haven't answered my questions, try again.



Pyro, Phox was the 9th to vote, and voted one of the 4 people who didn't have any votes on that time.

He later agreed something odd was going on that the first 10 people to vote voted 10 different people, while he was one of the most guilty of doing this.

So he said that what "those people" did was suspicious, and he was one of "those people", while never taking responsibility for that or explaining his actions.
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:59 am

Post by PyroDwarf »

Waiting for phox's response to Guardian's allegations before I move my vote. I want him to elaborate on this:
JamesthePhox wrote:I think that's a fair assumption. Not that bandwagoning is a major accusation these days. It seems to me that as long as the votes are spread out evenly, then the reasons for voting don't have to be held by strong opinion. It allows for wishy washy votes.
This was in response to the "fair and balanced" vote count, after he voted next to last.
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:35 am

Post by Evilgorrilaz »

Guardian wrote: Why not?
I don't believe it should. No other reason.

I already answered your other two questions.
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:13 am

Post by Guardian »

PyroDwarf wrote:Waiting for phox's response to Guardian's allegations before I move my vote. I want him to elaborate on this:
JamesthePhox wrote:I think that's a fair assumption. Not that bandwagoning is a major accusation these days. It seems to me that as long as the votes are spread out evenly, then the reasons for voting don't have to be held by strong opinion. It allows for wishy washy votes.
This was in response to the "fair and balanced" vote count, after he voted next to last.
Moreover, this is what he meant when he called something a fair assumption:
JamesThePhox wrote:
Macavenger wrote:Does anyone else find that "fair and balanced" vote count up there a little suspicious? No one coming up with 2 votes out of 10 cast strikes me as odd. We've either got some crazy luck here, or a couple people placing their votes carefully so as not to attract attention.
I think that's a fair assumption.
I found it fairly suspicious that he said it was a fair assumption that he placed his vote carefully so as not to attract attention.

This is more than bandwagon worthy from my POV.
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:17 am

Post by Guardian »

Guardian wrote:
Evilgorrilaz wrote:One small instance should not merit a bandwagon.
Why not?
Evilgorillzaz wrote:I don't believe it should. No other reason.
Guardian wrote:Why doesn't Near's FOS count as 'one small instance'?
Evil, you haven't answered this.
Does Near's FOS count as 'one small instance'? Why or why not?
Guardian wrote:Why is Near worthy of a bandwagon for one small instance, but Phox isn't?
Evilgorillza wrote:I believe that Near's logic was more faulty than JtP's.
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:22 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Meh. Don't really agree with the votes on Guardian right now; looks like he's just trying to get some kind of conversation going day 1, and there's nothing wrong with questioning people's justifiaciton for their actions in theoretical terms the way he's been doing.

On another note, I see no reason to move by vote off of Near at the moment.
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:01 am

Post by Joudas »

Guardian wrote:Well, obviously you've considered voting him, I asked you to consider voting him. However, you reached the conclusion that he was not worth voting for. Do you see what I am classifying as (possibly intentional) WIFOM? Is WIFOM not meritorious of your vote at this stage in the game? Do you find your no vote (and FOS of me) a more useful state of affairs?
I considered voting him, I suppose, in the sense of 'considered' where I thought "Why would I vote him, based on this evidence?" and decided that I would not. So, yes, I considered it, but the amount of consideration that I gave was not considerable. Or something.

I see what you are classifying as WIFOM, but I don't really see it as being WIFOM. No, I don't think that that level of WIFOM is meritorious of my vote this early in the game. I find my lack of a vote (and FOS of you) a more useful state of affairs, yes. The lack of a vote because there's nobody I have any desire to lynch right now based on what we've seen, and the FOS because while what you're doing could be considered scum hunting (by pointing a lot of fingers and raising a lot of often-moot or frivilous points and gaging the reaction people have), I don't like your methods, at least not at this point in the game. The way you're doing things puts people on edge which makes them watch what they're saying much more closely. A better method, in my opinion, is to let the conversation flow early on, and start grinding down on folks once they've had a chance to incriminate themselves, not try to get them to incriminate themselves by grinding down on them.
Near wrote:Seriously though, FOS everyone who accused me of being a scummy for my joke FOS's following my random vote. In particular, FOS Singing Librarian for nonrandom voting me because of it.
Now this, this is WIFOM. He says so himself, actually. However, I still don't think this is meritorious of my vote. It's too early to be band wagoning on anyone.
Guardian wrote:How do you decide what is useful content and what isn't?
"Useful Content" might have been poor wording - "contentful content" might be more accurate. What I meant was, you can easily have a 20-page day 1 if everyone's posting little 1- and 2-liners. Or you can have a 3 page day 1 with the same amount of content if everyone posts thought-out, multi-paragraph posts as the norm. Granted, there's some posts that are flat out useless - my image macro response to the joke vote on me, for example - that's an entirely useless post that does nothing to further the game. I believe it was you who was moderating a game I replaced into recently where the first 6 pages consisted of about 15 useful posts and a lot of stupid bullshit. This is an extreme example, but that's more or less what I'm talking about. My point is, post count is not a good indicator of whether or not it's a good time to lynch. Evidence is. We don't have enough evidence to warrant considering a lynch right now. Would you disagree? Do you honestly want to lynch Phox right now? How about Near? You certainly appear to be pushing for it.

As for the whole 'everyone voting different folks during the jokevote stage' ongoing discussion, in all honesty, I don't see this as being particularly scummy. Chances of anyone getting lynched because of one of those jokevotes are so slim it's not even worth mentioning. It could be a matter of someone not wanting to draw attention to themselves by ganging up, sure - but town or scum, who wants to draw attention to themselves? No one. Sure, scum would be more conscious of it, but this early in the game? This is a null tell.

As a heads up for everyone, my fiancee is going to be having a baby within the next couple weeks, and as such, I may disappear from the face of the internets for a few days at some point here, possibly without much notice. I'll have my mobile with me, so I'll be able to post occasionally during this time when things are slow there, but obviously she's going to be taking priority over Mafia. Please don't replace me during this time.

Also on that note, I'll be gone tomorrow and Friday on business, and likely won't be able to post then either (don't know what the internet situation at the hotel is going to be, heh) - sorry about that in advance.
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:25 am

Post by Evilgorrilaz »

Guardian wrote: Evil, you haven't answered this.
Yes I have.
Evilgorrilaz wrote: I believe that Near's logic was more faulty than JtP's.
Thats my answer.
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Dasquian
Dasquian
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Dasquian
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1430
Joined: November 3, 2003
Location: Guildford, UK

Post Post #99 (ISO) » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:38 am

Post by Dasquian »

Wow, this game is going at quite a pace.

Near's FOS on VampanezeHunter for not OMGUSing me is weird and I don't agree with it. Other people have said this, and now I'm saying it too. I also don't like Near saying "it was a joke" - didn't seem like a joke at the time.

I totally agree with Guardian's stance on day length. 2 pages is clearly too short, but over about 10 we're heading into diminishing returns land. If we can hit a lynch by around page 8 or 9, I think we'll have done a good job. I also agree with Yos2 that he's more likely to be sparking discussion than attempting to manipulate us; but I see this as more as a null-tell than anything. He could be scum, but his questioning isn't a case.

I'm not unvoting VH on principle (he hasn't posted since acquiring his votes), but
FOS: Near
for his weird OMGUS-fos and backpeddling. Not buying the Guardian case.
[size=84]QUACK[/size]

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