Pick your Poison 3 (Game Over)

[Patrick]

Votecount

starkmoon (1) -- Coron
Incognito (3) -- Ether, Sarcastro, q21
q21 (1) -- scotmany12
Coron (1) -- Incognito

Not voting: starkmoon, babygirl86, ashmite84, Mellowed Man, Inquisitor JL, Elmo, JDodge, Marmalade, armlx, mr. incrediball, Flameaxe, Dave
18 alive, 10 to lynch.

[Mellowed Man]

I see Sarcastro seems excited!

Vote: Ether

because she firmly voted for the two-shot vig role. BOO.

[Incognito]

No, Incognito, that doesn't explain your ridiculous assertion. Obviously the power roles

do

matter. Our power roles give us an advantage, and to say "Oh, it doesn't matter if the scum interfere with them, because we can win without them" is utterly ridiculous. I can only assume that that's your logic, by the way, because your "reasoning" doesn't explain anything except that *gasp* the vig is bad.

Well obviously you have a completely different opinion about the game of Mafia from me. I am of the opinion that a town can win even in a "Mountainous" situation if the town isn't lazy and it scum hunts correctly. The mafia vig-kill and the regular mafia kills are the only kills that are completely decided upon by the scum. Daytime lynches are decided on by both town and scum, obviously, but in order to be successful at outing scum, they require the members of the town to analyze the facts provided in thread to make rational decisions. All of this is also known as scum hunting, which is what I said in my first post.

Why don't you first explain why you don't think the scum having a daycop decreases our chances of winning the game?

Explained above.

"Useless" and "incorrect" are vague? How, exactly? "Useless" means that is without use. It does not contribute anything. It is unhelpful. I thought I made this rather clear. "Incorrect" means it is not correct. How is that vague? "Scummy" is indeed vague on its own, but I didn't just declare your post scummy with no explanation, did I?

They

are

vague when you don't explain

why

it is useless and incorrect (which, in this case, you completely failed to do). Look over your post again and point out to me how you explained that my first post was both useless and incorrect. Just because you say something is useless and incorrect doesn't mean it actually is unless you go forward and justify it.

I don't really care if scum happened to try to get you lynched once. Can you show me a meaningful trend of scum targetting you more than usual? Are you certain that this amazing claim (scum, numerically fewer, are more likely to find you scummy than town) is actually true? Can you postulate some reason why this might be so? Why do the scum single you out so? Why would I know to target you?

Stop trying to justify bullshit OMGUS.

I already told you what you need to do. I'm not going to go and do the grunt work for you and point out actual instances and then on top of that, answer those questions that you've posed for me when I told you to meta-game me on your own.

[Elmo]

vote Ether

[ashmite84]

*Is random voting over? Did it ever start?*

Meh....

vote: coren

- sounded the most suspicious in day 0 IMO. I'm still not sure I'm exactly clear on how a 2 shot vig. is better for the town than an encrytor.

[ashmite84]

EBWOP: * Encry

p

tor

[scotmany12]

I don't really care if scum happened to try to get you lynched once. Can you show me a meaningful trend of scum targetting you more than usual? Are you certain that this amazing claim (scum, numerically fewer, are more likely to find you scummy than town) is actually true? Can you postulate some reason why this might be so? Why do the scum single you out so? Why would I know to target you?

Stop trying to justify bullshit OMGUS.

I already told you what you need to do. I'm not going to go and do the grunt work for you and point out actual instances and then on top of that, answer those questions that you've posed for me when I told you to meta-game me on your own.

It isn't sarc's job. If you are trying to use this as a defense, that scum always try to get you lynched, then you need to provide examples. You don't force others to do it.

And BTW, this

Meta-game me and look for instances where I've been accused of being scum while I was aligned on the side of the town. You'll see that a pretty good majority of those times the scum themselves were doing the accusing.

is probably one of the worst defenses ever. This is not a meta; everyone who has been town has probably been attacked by scum at least once. All I see with this is an OMGUS against sarc.

[Sarcastro]

Well obviously you have a completely different opinion about the game of Mafia from me. I am of the opinion that a town can win even in a "Mountainous" situation if the town isn't lazy and it scum hunts correctly. The mafia vig-kill and the regular mafia kills are the only kills that are completely decided upon by the scum. Daytime lynches are decided on by both town and scum, obviously, but in order to be successful at outing scum, they require the members of the town to analyze the facts provided in thread to make rational decisions. All of this is also known as scum hunting, which is what I said in my first post.

You're just repeating the same nonsense. The issue is not what's decided by the scum or whether or not the town can win a mountainous game. The issue is that

town power roles help the town and scum power roles hurt the scum

. I'm not sure what about this concept is so difficult. Because we could win if the game were mountainous, you're willing to throw away a potential advantage? Why? It makes no sense.

Explained above.

No, it's not. Are you suggesting that a rolecop does not help the scum? I don't care whether or not the town can win even if the scum have one. I care about whether or not the chance of winning

decreases

.

They

are

vague when you don't explain

why

it is useless and incorrect (which, in this case, you completely failed to do). Look over your post again and point out to me how you explained that my first post was both useless and incorrect. Just because you say something is useless and incorrect doesn't mean it actually is unless you go forward and justify it.

Do I need to use smaller words or something? It's

useless

. It does not contribute anything. What about this statement do I need to explain? Do you not understand what "useless" means? I thought it was clear. Your statement did not help the town in any way. It looked forced. Do I need to go on?

Your statement was also incorrect. It was not true. It was not fact. It was a false statement. Do you need me to explain exactly

how

it was false? I would have thought this was clear.

This is not even taking into consideration that I have since that post gone into more detail about how exactly your statement was incorrect. Did you miss that bit?

I already told you what you need to do. I'm not going to go and do the grunt work for you and point out actual instances and then on top of that, answer those questions that you've posed for me when I told you to meta-game me on your own.

I think you missed my point. I'm not asking you to show me any sort of meta on you, because I honestly wouldn't care. I'm certainly not going to waste my own time, either.

My point was more along the lines that even if your statement is true, it would be

absolutely meaningless

in

multiple ways

. It would almost certainly not be a significant trend, it would be difficult to justify it meaning anything at the very beginning of the game when scum would have no reason to single you out, and if were scum I would have no reason to single you out.

All I can imagine is that you have such an inflated view of yourself that you think I've for some reason scouted you out and been so impressed by your play in other games that I decided to get rid of you here. Yeah, that's a bit of a stretch.

So it's blatant OMGUS, and it is in fact even lamer because you're trying to legitimise blatant OMGUS because "scum tend to vote for you".

Ashmite, Elmo, there's no need for random voting. Incognito has practically admitted that he's scum, so we can just lynch him as quick as possible.

[Coron]

I'd like to point out that the Encryptor does more than just allow daytalking...

The second ability is imho much much stronger, and may cause much confusion/mislynching late in the game.

[Elmo]

incog is fine by me

[Sarcastro]

Then vote for him.

[Elmo]

by that I mean his play has seemed fine to me, so no

[ashmite84]

I'd like to point out that the Encryptor does more than just allow daytalking...

The second ability is imho much much stronger, and may cause much confusion/mislynching late in the game.

I agree. In fact, the daytalking doesn't really phase me at all, I think that that facet of the role is over-rated. Having a role hidden from us could be a thorn in our side later, but I don't think it is a patch on the 2 shot vig. Picture this: for whatever reason we mislynch on D1, the scum make their regular kill on Night 1 plus the vig makes a successful extra kill. Then for whatever reason we mislynch on D2 then the same happens night 2. All of a sudden we are down 6 townies. This is all speculatory as there are factors that could prevent same, plus the scum might not have played it like that anyway. It's just a bit of a scary thought to me. It's also moot at this point as they didn't get the vig. What

is

in contention is your support of this. Now I know that different people have different opinions and it may be that you are innocent and that was simply your opinion, but I know that personally the vig was one of two that jumped out at me

not

to let them get. I think I'm happy with my vote on you for now.

[ashmite84]

Ashmite, Elmo, there's no need for random voting.

Yeah, I sensed such so my vote wasn't exactly random.

Incognito has practically admitted that he's scum, so we can just lynch him as quick as possible.

I'm keen to see how the Sarcastro / Incognito exchange plays out before I comment.

[Sarcastro]

I'm keen to see how the Sarcastro / Incognito exchange plays out before I comment.

Translation: you're his scumbuddy and you'll only bus him if you're sure that I can convince the town. Good to know.

[Coron]

I'd like to point out that the Encryptor does more than just allow daytalking...

The second ability is imho much much stronger, and may cause much confusion/mislynching late in the game.

I agree. In fact, the daytalking doesn't really phase me at all, I think that that facet of the role is over-rated. Having a role hidden from us could be a thorn in our side later, but I don't think it is a patch on the 2 shot vig. Picture this: for whatever reason we mislynch on D1, the scum make their regular kill on Night 1 plus the vig makes a successful extra kill. Then for whatever reason we mislynch on D2 then the same happens night 2. All of a sudden we are down 6 townies. This is all speculatory as there are factors that could prevent same, plus the scum might not have played it like that anyway. It's just a bit of a scary thought to me. It's also moot at this point as they didn't get the vig. What

is

in contention is your support of this. Now I know that different people have different opinions and it may be that you are innocent and that was simply your opinion, but I know that personally the vig was one of two that jumped out at me

not

to let them get. I think I'm happy with my vote on you for now.

I almost feel like I've explained my choice before. Hm, perhaps it was post 31? Oh yeah, that was it.

If the lack of role reveal causes 1 mislynch it's already JUST as bad as a 2 shot vig(shortening the game by 1 day).

The real thing is it can mess with our numbers of how much power role we should have when it comes down to mass claim time, say we end up with 4 of the 3 point roles and we have a role that dies before massclaim and ends up ???, in the end we end up with 4 3 point roles claiming, can we trust them? Can't we? If we end up with 5 3 point roles claiming do we assume only 1 is scum or could there be 2 of them in there?

I don't like adding this uncertainty into the game honestly, I didn't like the idea of a vig either, but the whole point of this game is pick your

poison

not pick your bed of roses, so I picked what I figured as the better of two evils.

[ashmite84]

I'm keen to see how the Sarcastro / Incognito exchange plays out before I comment.

Translation: you're his scumbuddy and you'll only bus him if you're sure that I can convince the town. Good to know.

Nah, just trying to decide if it's some grade A distancing, a misunderstandng between 2 townies, you've got his number or you're trying to start a wagon. And besides which it's very entertaining

[Marmalade]

Elmo, why is incog's behaviour "fine by you"?

[babygirl86]

me best guess would be that at least one scum member voted for the vig power. Rereading, incog seems like he's trying too hard to defend himself with defenses that aren't really that good of defenses. I agree- everyone has been accused of being scum when they're town- it's happened to me every game I've ever played in. I'm not quite buying his defenses.

Incognito

[Mellowed Man]

Vote: Incognito

[ashmite84]

I'm not sure you can look at it in terms of shortening the game by one day because the hypothetical vigs' NK choices could potentially have info for the town which they would share under certain circumstances during the day, but wouldn't get the chance if they were NK'd.

Anyway enough about that. They've got an encryptor. Re: the point about the false claims, I think that was always going to be an issue, encryptor or no encryptor, because the scum weren't obliged to give us an amount of roles. but an amount of points worth of roles. They could even go above 12 points if it so suited them. I am expecting WIFOM, and lots of backreading and possibly even being able to guess the hidden role (unless we take out the encryptor before this ability is used). So we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. What we need is some A game scumhunting and we should be fine.

[JDodge]

Incog lynch is a poor lynch.

Wishy-washy non-committal follow-what-the-town's-majority-seems-to-think q21 is much better.

Vote: q21

[q21]

Wish washy: huh?

Non-committal: How is a vote non-committal?

Follow-what-the-town's-majority-seems-to-think: Didn't realise that two people were the town majority.

[scotmany12]

He's talking about your push for the vig, and then your sudden change of heart.

[JDodge]

Wish washy: huh?

Non-committal: How is a vote non-committal?

Follow-what-the-town's-majority-seems-to-think: Didn't realise that two people were the town majority.

Sudden swap from vig.

It was fairly obvious that the Incog wagon was going to gain substantial momentum.