In post 324, Firebringer wrote:probably because the only one who sounds truly hateful in this conversation is you. Persivul has an unpopular opinion but doesn't appear to actually hate anyone. Not approving of homosexuality doesn't equal "I hate all gays" or "I want all gays to die" or "gays don't have the right to exist" or whatever you want to insert.
I feel like that has been explored so much that you should get that.
It more or less does though. Him claiming otherwise doesn't change that.
In post 280, panthaleon wrote:This is not misrepresentation. You have stated you believe gay people should not exist. The underlying implications are that my existence is immoral, faulty, and less than that of my heterosexual counterparts. Your sentiment exists only to denigrate gay people, and is the same rhetoric used to restrict rights, promote inequality, and in some places justify their execution.
Your rhetoric is not harmless just because you're too self involved to think about what weird opinions you feel obligated to share.
PEDIT:
I respond to Persivul because he is so fundamentally and harmfully wrong that I feel the act of not responding and tacitly condoning his behavior puts me at fault as well.
Look it's that thing what where I said what I said about how what Persivul is doing is damaging.
Also imagine unironically saying that the person criticizing a homophobe is the real hateful one.
In post 324, Firebringer wrote:probably because the only one who sounds truly hateful in this conversation is you. Persivul has an unpopular opinion but doesn't appear to actually hate anyone. Not approving of homosexuality doesn't equal "I hate all gays" or "I want all gays to die" or "gays don't have the right to exist" or whatever you want to insert.
I feel like that has been explored so much that you should get that.
It more or less does though. Him claiming otherwise doesn't change that.
Do you believe that we can't separate the act that people disagree with, with the people who perform it?
For instance if I hate smoking, does that mean I can't like someone who smokes or should I hate them for smoking?
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
Being gay is not a choice someone makes. You cannot disagree with someone's fundamental nature of being. This is more like disagreeing with someone for having brown eyes.
I've usually tried to avoid the historical context because that feels like actual hell to discuss with a religious person. Like I don't think I could emotionally handle someone trying to explain why the Church was justified in their previous decisions.
EDIT:
Also sidebar, but I would also like for someone to justify their icky feelings about gay people with something other than their religious text of choice. Like this isn't a rational opinion someone develops. It's a lizard brain response developed by upbringing or indoctrination.
Last edited by panthaleon on Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
I think I've learned one of the divides, is that one thinks it's an intrinsic identity similar to race and gender. The other thinks it's something like lifestyle disassociated from the person.
Probably safer to go with the viewpoint of people who actually experience it.
I am sorry the thing that groups in power have used to persecute and kill people isn't interesting enough for you. That doesn't really change the past or how the past informs the present context.
PEDIT:
Nice take Flum. I don't even mean this patronizingly and I hope you don't think I hate you as a person. I do like to believe that I am kindhearted and patient about, like, everything that isn't this.
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
In post 280, panthaleon wrote:This is not misrepresentation. You have stated you believe gay people should not exist. The underlying implications are that my existence is immoral, faulty, and less than that of my heterosexual counterparts. Your sentiment exists only to denigrate gay people, and is the same rhetoric used to restrict rights, promote inequality, and in some places justify their execution.
Your rhetoric is not harmless just because you're too self involved to think about what weird opinions you feel obligated to share.
PEDIT:
I respond to Persivul because he is so fundamentally and harmfully wrong that I feel the act of not responding and tacitly condoning his behavior puts me at fault as well.
Look it's that thing what where I said what I said about how what Persivul is doing is damaging.
Also imagine unironically saying that the person criticizing a homophobe is the real hateful one.
And in the next post, Persivul asked you where he stated that gay people should not exist, but you never answered.
This isn't about sides. You asked me how to deal with people like Persivul and I'm advising you that ranting and raving is not only not effective, it's downright counter-productive.
The best advice that I've ever been given is to walk away and I understand as well as anyone can that it's the hardest advice to follow.
In post 336, Firebringer wrote:sexuality should be as integrated to your identity as which hand is your dominate. Not that important! Unless you play sports I guess....
Neat. But your desired outcome doesn't really change historical context. As long as people seek to denigrate gay people, they going to identify by that marker.
You know kind of like people used to call left-handed people satanic and beat that out of them. People then could very easily identify with the shared struggle of being left handed. That's actually a pretty dope analogy, firebringer.
In post 334, panthaleon wrote:I am sorry the thing that groups in power have used to persecute and kill people isn't interesting enough for you. That doesn't really change the past or how the past informs the present context.
frankly you would think they wouldn't kill gays because that's less competition for mates. I mean i really think they were being dumb too. Like come on guys, you should be killing other straights. They are the real threat.
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
In post 336, Firebringer wrote:sexuality should be as integrated to your identity as which hand is your dominate. Not that important! Unless you play sports I guess....
Neat. But your desired outcome doesn't really change historical context. As long as people seek to denigrate gay people, they going to identify by that marker.
You know kind of like people used to call left-handed people satanic and beat that out of them. People then could very easily identify with the shared struggle of being left handed. That's actually a pretty dope analogy, firebringer.
funny story, i was born left handed and my mother tried to force me to change to right handed because as she was born left handed and it was beaten out of her. It didn't stick though, she wasn't very good at ensuring I sticked to being right handed.
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
Would I prefer that people not be gay because god? That's a weird way of wording it, but if I'm getting the gist right, that fits me reasonably well.
Additionally you've repeatedly said you disagree with homosexuality. Actually what else can that possibly mean?
I mean like I responded with this KK.
Also friend you still seem to think that ignoring Persivul is a valid response and are ignoring the reason I am saying that response is invalid. Do not patronize me about this, please. I have tried very hard to explain why 'ignore the troll' is bad advice.
Firebringer your quips are fun and all, but they don't really address the historical context at all. Whether you personally feel the Church should have persecuted gays doesn't change the fact that they did and we live in a culture built upon that.
i'd say sexual orientation is way more interesting a personal trait than skin color though
race/ethnicity contains a lot beyond skin color of course - there's a whole cultural background that's been built around it all
but if you take out all the culture, sexual orientation stands alone as a meaningful psychological characteristic
and even more than that, it relates to one of the core pursuits the typical person ever commits themselves to - falling in love with and committing to be with someone for the rest of your life
let's not ignore that it's not just homosexuality that persival's type are opposed to; it's that entire range of human experience that is same-sex romance, from attraction to dating to marriage to raising a family together, all of that
and sexual orientation colors and drives all that as fundamentally as any of our basic drives
like, if you eliminate sexuality from the typical person or from society in general, so much is gone
there's a gaping void i don't think would be so obvious if, say, we all stopped thinking about race
I mean I am sure Persivul tolerates gay people as long as they don't talk about it, don't kiss in public, don't hold hands, don't have children, don't go to parent teacher conferences, don't make a big deal out of it when he says something homophobic, don't try to put their relationship on par with a straight marriage, and don't make it a part of media.
Which like, you know, is fair I guess. That's on us for shoving our lifestyle in his face.
In post 333, Fluminator wrote:I think I've learned one of the divides, is that one thinks it's an intrinsic identity similar to race and gender. The other thinks it's something like lifestyle disassociated from the person.
Probably safer to go with the viewpoint of people who actually experience it.
Problem is that the people who actually experience it don't all agree.
