Mafiascum.net

I know this has come up before, but what completed Normals would be a good read for newbs?

I imagine they should (updated):


2) Tend towards standard play
2a) Later examples should include more exotic playstyles and gambits
3) Be a mix of town and scum wins

Once identified, is there anyone willing to look at them as a group and come up with a few questions to give newbs something to chew on as they read?

I don't mean a complete curriculum and "here's the only way to play" kind of thing, but something like:

Post 125: What do you think BillBob's motive is by claiming cop with no one voting him?
Post 280: Why is what JimmyJoe just posted a mistake, given his previous play?

Stuff like that. I'm expecting a little lag time between jobs in a couple weeks and want something to keep me busy in a creative fashion (aside from, you know...finding work). Plus I might benefit myself.

Open 61

Has a few good notes.

Scum got caught both days, and for good reasons.

Both scum lynched got caught for trends in play that are indicative of scum-ness, and Killah 9 was NK'd for his connection to dead scum.

Greay Spot played well as town in that he was found really suspicious and never got lynched.

OGML's play was exemplary of good town behavior.

I got killed because I found the other scum -- in games with multiple scum groups, not finding the other scum too well is something to think about.

Post 328 where Killah 9 is "not sold on the ej case" is something good for newbies to look over.

As is OGML's history of posts.

Eh?

Eh, I'm not sure we should limit it to Normal games. Just reasonably simple setups should do.

Some of my personal favourites:

Mini 485: Formula One: While there's somewhat mehish play from the town, I think this is a good readable game for people interested in seeing scum win.

Newbie 321: I really can't get enough of plugging this game, but I think it still had a lot. Good townies, good scum.

Newbie 414: While it had some pretty bad activity issues, this game stands out in my memory as a game with a lot of good arguments.

Board Games Mafia: Again, activity issues, but this game had some pretty nice scumhunting.

Mafia 60: Face to Face: Solid play from most people in the game.

Most of these games are probably better in my memory than they were in reality. Kingmaker II (and maybe I as well?), Lights Out 2 and the first two Smalltowns (normal and Scrubs) also strike me as worth reading, but they had very differring setups. Two Smalltowns mainly because I liked a few of the setup-based plays in them. LO2 and KM II had good play, but difficult setup.

I disagree with all the criteria except the last one.

On the 1, I don't see how number of replacements being low makes the game better as a learning experience. To the contrary, I think that will hinder learning. Very rare is a game without many a replacement, and reading replacements and comparing them to their replacees is all part of the suite of skills a noob should want to build.

On the two, I think that first, what is or is not "standard" is going to be very difficult to define. Is fritzler standard? How about BJ, or IS? I think when you start trying to exclude which play styles you are willing to "showcase" you are going to inherently exclude some which can be very beneficial. Second, I think that censoring what gambits and play they're exposed to is bad because it limits the experience they're going to gain from reading those games. You need to see ABR claim cop with a guilty when he's vanilla townie and get both him and the real cop lynched for it to know that it's probably a bad play to do that. Limiting the newbies vision to just positive games does not let them grow, it just tells them to fit into a mold.

Thestatusquo wrote:I disagree with all the criteria except the last one.

On the 1, I don't see how number of replacements being low makes the game better as a learning experience. To the contrary, I think that will hinder learning. Very rare is a game without many a replacement, and reading replacements and comparing them to their replacees is all part of the suite of skills a noob should want to build.

On the two, I think that first, what is or is not "standard" is going to be very difficult to define. Is fritzler standard? How about BJ, or IS? I think when you start trying to exclude which play styles you are willing to "showcase" you are going to inherently exclude some which can be very beneficial. Second, I think that censoring what gambits and play they're exposed to is bad because it limits the experience they're going to gain from reading those games. You need to see ABR claim cop with a guilty when he's vanilla townie and get both him and the real cop lynched for it to know that it's probably a bad play to do that. Limiting the newbies vision to just positive games does not let them grow, it just tells them to fit into a mold.

^^
Win.

MS isn't Normals. We should try to keep the games reasonably basic, but why keep it to Normals? Newbies, Minis, Opens, even Large Themes have enough to offer as well. You're going to meet the Fritzes of this world when you play Mafia here, so why shield them from the experience?

Shea wrote:Is fritzler standard? How about BJ, or IS?

I've never played with them, and I can't recall off the top of my head a game of theirs I've read, so I couldn't say, but point taken.

Zindy also brings up a good point- that themes with relatively simple roles should be included as well.

Rather than 3 or 4 games to steer people towards, perhaps a continuum (UU!) of games, starting with good Newbies up to themes/complex setups, maybe 10 or 12 games, would make a better presentation. In the earlier games, "normal play" is presented, and more esoteric/exotic play tucked into the later games.

Updating first post.

We've had similar topics before, but this thread is asking for model games for to read. If I were a newbie, there is no way I would be able to read a 70-page game and understand all of the merit it has. This thread should be advocating fairly short games with lots of good information in them (perhaps with a note of special things to look for). I will try to make some suggestions when I am not on a 5-minute time constraint at the school library.

I'm not sure I'd say that Kingmaker II is a good game to read, heh. Sure, there was really good play at parts, but it was so long, slow, and boring. Heck, I could barely make myself go back read the thread while I was IN the game.

Newbie #124. I often suggest this game as good reading; excellent players, and excellent discussion. There are things to be learned as both scum and town. 9 pages. Town win.

Newbie #254. Excellent scum-hunting by town, some excellent discussion (on theory and other things) and excellent counterplay from scum after a tough Day One. This game demonstrates one of the few proper instances for when a townsperson can legitimately offer themselves up as a lynch, as well as a variety of playstyle types to take note of (slow and methodical, lurking, provocative / purposefully against the grain). 17 pages. Town win.

Mini 167, Les Miserables, an excellent show for how to play as scum in tough positions. 17 pages. Scum win.

Mini 240, Worst Role EVAR, just an awesome game that everybody should read after they are comfortable in understanding most of the roles in mafia. 13 pages. Nobody wins.

Edit: Almost edited in Muppets Mafia, but I'm not sure if that's so much a "model" game as it is a fun game to read. Worst Role Evar still needs to be read, however, as a model... for awesomeness.

Worst Role EVAR was the first game I ever read, and no game has surpassed it in my mind (though a few, like Verbose 2, have come close). Not only is the game hilarious and awesome, but everything just came together so perfectly. It was like the whole thing was scripted to be as awesome as possible. In fact, I think I'm going to go read it again right now and see if it's as good as I remember it.