Are there software tools for analysing forum threads?
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Ramcius Mafia Scum
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Gamma Emerald AnySurvivorAny
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so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?In post 19, Ramcius wrote:
Usage of your own head to solve gameIn post 18, Gamma Emerald wrote:
What is the spirit of maifa?In post 9, Ramcius wrote:What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewarding<Embrace The Void>
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Ythan SheWelcome to the HaystackShe
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the worst Snuggly Duckling
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ok the cool groovy thing about computers is that like the software we're talking about is pseudo-calculating in nature. we aren't talking about mafia AI. now i want to study AI and create a mafia player and call him bob3142. i digress: what kind of thing do haters think a program is going to do that a human couldn't do given time/energy?
i love this.In post 21, Andycyca wrote:I'm the oldest account in this thread yet. Does that make me the spirit of Mafia Past?-
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Jake The Wolfie he/theyMafia Scumhe/they
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No, Special roles are an in-game tool to help you solve gameIn post 26, Gamma Emerald wrote:
so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?In post 19, Ramcius wrote:
Usage of your own head to solve gameIn post 18, Gamma Emerald wrote:
What is the spirit of maifa?In post 9, Ramcius wrote:What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewardingShow"I'm sorry that you put asbestos in your coffee."
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Gamma Emerald AnySurvivorAny
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yessiree heMafia Scumhe
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viewtopic.php?p=11837966#p11837966
this might be what you're looking for.
You can make the same argument for chess engines. What's the point of playing chess if AlphaZero can easily beat every grandmaster in the world?In post 9, Ramcius wrote:What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewarding
A lot of people questioned the point of Deep Blue at the time, but Deep Blue and subsequent chess engines like stockfish, alphaZero elevated chess to new heights that wouldn't have been possible without them. The program's primary purpose is in assisting people to get better at the game. I can foresee programs similar being adapted for mafia with similar benefits.
Of course, that isn't to say people wouldn't be abusing programs to their benefit for online mafia. While it would be very simple to catch engine abusers in online chess, it would be borderline impossible to catch a tool-assisted mafia player.-
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Cabd QT Sniper
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Time.In post 25, Ramcius wrote:Equalizer of what?
I used to keep a literal metabinder of things that majorly differed between an individual's town games and mafia games, because I had the free time to read almost every game onsite.
Turns of phrase, post count, post density, post timing... there were a LOT of super-specific tells like that.
But now? I'm a father and I work full time and I don't have the time to do that. Automating part of that process, and then applying human logic to the patterns it detects? That could be incredibly useful.
And it'll march the arms race along further. But, you cannot stuff the genie back in the bottle. The working solution to countries obtaining nuclear weapons was never "That's unfair, you should stop doing that"; just as it was for the shotgun (Famously detested by the Germans during Trench Warfare) or the longbow, or the battering ram, or any other weapon in human history.ShowHave retired for good; Life is too busy to have time or energy for mafia. It was fun~
And then, a Miracle, a Dance Game and a flight of fancy struck, one more game into the abyss
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Cabd QT Sniper
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Essentially, there's two "looks" for how this can go.
Look A: Players like myself and psyche develop our tools, and they stay with us, giving us an advantage
Look B: Players like myself and psyche develop our tools, post them for public use, and everyone advances their games.ShowHave retired for good; Life is too busy to have time or energy for mafia. It was fun~
And then, a Miracle, a Dance Game and a flight of fancy struck, one more game into the abyss
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Cabd QT Sniper
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For instance, right now, I'm working on a PowerBI desktop (Free tool from Microsoft) script that ingests a game's worth of posts, and mines them for phrases and words of a given alignment. I tell the model who is town vs scum, and it tells me what words pop out to it.ShowHave retired for good; Life is too busy to have time or energy for mafia. It was fun~
And then, a Miracle, a Dance Game and a flight of fancy struck, one more game into the abyss
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Ramcius Mafia Scum
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You forgetting really important part of the mafia - balance. Improving town with software assistance isn't the answer you're looking for. You'll have to balance games somehow to make up for scumIn post 32, Cabd wrote:
Time.In post 25, Ramcius wrote:Equalizer of what?
I used to keep a literal metabinder of things that majorly differed between an individual's town games and mafia games, because I had the free time to read almost every game onsite.
Turns of phrase, post count, post density, post timing... there were a LOT of super-specific tells like that.
But now? I'm a father and I work full time and I don't have the time to do that. Automating part of that process, and then applying human logic to the patterns it detects? That could be incredibly useful.
And it'll march the arms race along further. But, you cannot stuff the genie back in the bottle. The working solution to countries obtaining nuclear weapons was never "That's unfair, you should stop doing that"; just as it was for the shotgun (Famously detested by the Germans during Trench Warfare) or the longbow, or the battering ram, or any other weapon in human history.Tact is for liars and politicians.-
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Ramcius Mafia Scum
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Elli had something like that, his conclusion was that using that was a mistakeIn post 34, Cabd wrote:For instance, right now, I'm working on a PowerBI desktop (Free tool from Microsoft) script that ingests a game's worth of posts, and mines them for phrases and words of a given alignment. I tell the model who is town vs scum, and it tells me what words pop out to it.Tact is for liars and politicians.-
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Ramcius Mafia Scum
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How I'm supposed to know what you consider as special roles?In post 26, Gamma Emerald wrote:
so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?In post 19, Ramcius wrote:
Usage of your own head to solve gameIn post 18, Gamma Emerald wrote:
What is the spirit of maifa?In post 9, Ramcius wrote:What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewardingTact is for liars and politicians.-
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Syryana He/HimAlways AndyHe/Him
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You seem to be under the entirely mistaken impression that meta only helps town. Scum, armed with the same information, can easily use small differences in play to get miselims and cause other shenanigans.In post 35, Ramcius wrote:
You forgetting really important part of the mafia - balance. Improving town with software assistance isn't the answer you're looking for. You'll have to balance games somehow to make up for scumIn post 32, Cabd wrote:
Time.In post 25, Ramcius wrote:Equalizer of what?
I used to keep a literal metabinder of things that majorly differed between an individual's town games and mafia games, because I had the free time to read almost every game onsite.
Turns of phrase, post count, post density, post timing... there were a LOT of super-specific tells like that.
But now? I'm a father and I work full time and I don't have the time to do that. Automating part of that process, and then applying human logic to the patterns it detects? That could be incredibly useful.
And it'll march the arms race along further. But, you cannot stuff the genie back in the bottle. The working solution to countries obtaining nuclear weapons was never "That's unfair, you should stop doing that"; just as it was for the shotgun (Famously detested by the Germans during Trench Warfare) or the longbow, or the battering ram, or any other weapon in human history.
The issue here isn't balance. The issue is how do these tools alter the mafia landscape and what quality of life improvements do they offer. Do people just use the tools to automatically win games? That's bad. It's also unlikely someone develops an AI sophisticated enough to do that. Automating things like vote counts and post history or meta? That's a convenience and I'm all for it.
Further, to Cabd's point, some of these tools already exist. They can benefit a small portion of players (i.e. the devs that made them) or they could be crowdsourced and available to all players if they choose to partake.In the timeless words of a great and revered man: "Blow it out your ass."
A hydra of Rift Adrift, Oil Tycoons and Trust Fund. "In the Oil Rift we Trust."-
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Ythan SheWelcome to the HaystackShe
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You know, power roles. In the game Mafia.In post 37, Ramcius wrote:
How I'm supposed to know what you consider as special roles?In post 26, Gamma Emerald wrote:
so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?In post 19, Ramcius wrote:
Usage of your own head to solve gameIn post 18, Gamma Emerald wrote:
What is the spirit of maifa?In post 9, Ramcius wrote:What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewarding-
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Ramcius Mafia Scum
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You don't need sophisticated AI, you simply need a tool to run all person's games looking for specific word/phrase and how often person said it as either alignment. Good luck fighting this meta with arguments like "meta isn't accurate/sucks" or "you can't use meta from 1 or few games", you can't even alter meta as a scum providing only examples that benefits your agenda - software will provide absolute meta. Like I can do some things and bust my ass covering my own scum meta, but I can't do shit, if townies will be confirmed as a town and I'm dead to PoE.In post 38, Syryana wrote:
You seem to be under the entirely mistaken impression that meta only helps town. Scum, armed with the same information, can easily use small differences in play to get miselims and cause other shenanigans.In post 35, Ramcius wrote:
You forgetting really important part of the mafia - balance. Improving town with software assistance isn't the answer you're looking for. You'll have to balance games somehow to make up for scumIn post 32, Cabd wrote:
Time.In post 25, Ramcius wrote:Equalizer of what?
I used to keep a literal metabinder of things that majorly differed between an individual's town games and mafia games, because I had the free time to read almost every game onsite.
Turns of phrase, post count, post density, post timing... there were a LOT of super-specific tells like that.
But now? I'm a father and I work full time and I don't have the time to do that. Automating part of that process, and then applying human logic to the patterns it detects? That could be incredibly useful.
And it'll march the arms race along further. But, you cannot stuff the genie back in the bottle. The working solution to countries obtaining nuclear weapons was never "That's unfair, you should stop doing that"; just as it was for the shotgun (Famously detested by the Germans during Trench Warfare) or the longbow, or the battering ram, or any other weapon in human history.
The issue here isn't balance. The issue is how do these tools alter the mafia landscape and what quality of life improvements do they offer. Do people just use the tools to automatically win games? That's bad. It's also unlikely someone develops an AI sophisticated enough to do that. Automating things like vote counts and post history or meta? That's a convenience and I'm all for it.
Further, to Cabd's point, some of these tools already exist. They can benefit a small portion of players (i.e. the devs that made them) or they could be crowdsourced and available to all players if they choose to partake.Tact is for liars and politicians.-
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Ramcius Mafia Scum
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You know, you're still boring petty trollIn post 39, Ythan wrote:
You know, power roles. In the game Mafia.In post 37, Ramcius wrote:
How I'm supposed to know what you consider as special roles?In post 26, Gamma Emerald wrote:
so that means special roles are against the spirit of mafia?In post 19, Ramcius wrote:
Usage of your own head to solve gameIn post 18, Gamma Emerald wrote:
What is the spirit of maifa?In post 9, Ramcius wrote:What's the point in doing so? You might win more, sure, but you're abandoning spirit of the mafia, you know, the feel that YOU figured stuff, not some algorithm that you just ran. Also, it gets boring fast enough, because you putting less work in it and end result doesn't feel so rewardingTact is for liars and politicians.-
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Ythan SheWelcome to the HaystackShe
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Jake The Wolfie he/theyMafia Scumhe/they
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What if we developed an AI which you input a user and a post, and it outputs a brand new post which would be the most town-meta for that player?Show"I'm sorry that you put asbestos in your coffee."
"All dictionaries aught to have one typo."
Here's some text to break up all the links in my sig.
Currently my favorite role I've seen in a Normal.
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Syryana He/HimAlways AndyHe/Him
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So what? Scum have access to the tool too, and can artificially inflate their usage of certain key phrases to match their own town meta. Further, people in general aren't so consistent that a simple matching up of key phrases would lead to anything remotely resembling a game solve. If you've ever used meta before, you know there's no such thing as "absolute meta", no matter its source. The proposed tools here simply collate data. It's up to the user to analyze that data and present it to 12 other people in a way that they'd find compelling. So I'm a bit confused as to what you're actually arguing about here.In post 40, Ramcius wrote:You don't need sophisticated AI, you simply need a tool to run all person's games looking for specific word/phrase and how often person said it as either alignment. Good luck fighting this meta with arguments like "meta isn't accurate/sucks" or "you can't use meta from 1 or few games", you can't even alter meta as a scum providing only examples that benefits your agenda - software will provide absolute meta. Like I can do some things and bust my ass covering my own scum meta, but I can't do shit, if townies will be confirmed as a town and I'm dead to PoE.
Pedit: I think the point, Jake, is that AI usage for the most part probably isn't kosher for mafia. We're talking about automating data gathering, not automating playing the game.In the timeless words of a great and revered man: "Blow it out your ass."
A hydra of Rift Adrift, Oil Tycoons and Trust Fund. "In the Oil Rift we Trust."-
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Ramcius Mafia Scum
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No, that happens, when petty troll like you thinks he's so smart and others are morons. I'm pretty sure Gamma knows how to spell PR or power roles, therefore when he says "special roles", he means some specific PRs, I have no way of knowing which PRs he consider special, so I did what any person with working brains would do - I asked him. You know, that's what you do, when you lack of info to answer a question. I hope today's lesson will be helpful to you in the futureIn post 42, Ythan wrote:That's bound to happen when you define trolling as answering easy obvious questions you somehow couldn't find the answers to on your own.Tact is for liars and politicians.-
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Ythan SheWelcome to the HaystackShe
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Ramcius Mafia Scum
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Nah, I'm just benevolent person, we should help to less fortunate than us, we should educate people, who clearly lack of basic understanding of things
Also, I never said that you're bad, just petty, you know, someone, who can't really put anything creative together, bad troll at least can come up with something new and they are entertainingTact is for liars and politicians.-
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Ramcius Mafia Scum
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I know a better way - new secret alt every game. People are already fed up with meta usage, you want to make meta even more obnoxious?In post 44, Syryana wrote:
So what? Scum have access to the tool too, and can artificially inflate their usage of certain key phrases to match their own town meta. Further, people in general aren't so consistent that a simple matching up of key phrases would lead to anything remotely resembling a game solve. If you've ever used meta before, you know there's no such thing as "absolute meta", no matter its source. The proposed tools here simply collate data. It's up to the user to analyze that data and present it to 12 other people in a way that they'd find compelling. So I'm a bit confused as to what you're actually arguing about here.In post 40, Ramcius wrote:You don't need sophisticated AI, you simply need a tool to run all person's games looking for specific word/phrase and how often person said it as either alignment. Good luck fighting this meta with arguments like "meta isn't accurate/sucks" or "you can't use meta from 1 or few games", you can't even alter meta as a scum providing only examples that benefits your agenda - software will provide absolute meta. Like I can do some things and bust my ass covering my own scum meta, but I can't do shit, if townies will be confirmed as a town and I'm dead to PoE.
Pedit: I think the point, Jake, is that AI usage for the most part probably isn't kosher for mafia. We're talking about automating data gathering, not automating playing the game.Tact is for liars and politicians.-
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Cabd QT Sniper
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Kinda don't think you can speak for everyone here.In post 48, Ramcius wrote:People are already fed up with meta usageShowHave retired for good; Life is too busy to have time or energy for mafia. It was fun~
And then, a Miracle, a Dance Game and a flight of fancy struck, one more game into the abyss
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