Mini 617 - Scottish Mafia, Game Over

[Empking]

Since he unvoted I wouldn't call him the attacker. Yes he bought up the points but he didn't have the firm beleif in them that others had.

I also fail to see why someone who is bringing up points should be immune from being a suspect, just in case the bandwagon might lead to scum.

[starkmoon]

[col color=white]Player[col color=white]Votes[col color=white]Voting [col color=white]Empking[col color=white]2[col color=white]Lowell, Cephrir

[col color=white]Not Voting : [col color=white] CC09, Cybele, dcorbe, Empking, kuribo, massive, q21, roflcopter

[dcorbe]

dcorbe

: Can you explain how you went from "wait for his replacement" to "I'll hammer him" (even though you didn't) to "maybe his replacement can claim" in regards to your opinion about Erratus in the span of about twenty hours?

I decided Lowell had a good point. As I indicated I've replaced into similar situations before. I thought about it some and I was sure that he was scum so I decided it wouldn't be fair to someone coming it to try and defend themselves or to come into the game only to claim.

FoWhatIsWrongWithYou: dcorbe because I think it's pretty obvious that EA is not breadcrumbing, and exiting the random voting stage is not anti-scumhunting. Your posts are really weird and you take everything seriously, what's with that?

Trying REALLY hard to shoot down a perfectly legitimate reason to start an early wagon on someone... but he's going to hang back a bit after this and wait for someone else to jump on me so that he can look pro town later on.

q21 does eventually starts picking apart my wagon on post 60 but I noted that Cybele was already first on my wagon at this point.

After sparring with q21 a bit, he begins attacking me by proxy (post 73).

q21 wrote:
No, by unvoting him EA you are in fact the one who ensured that the EA wagon would fall apart, I just said I didn't like it. I don't see how my posting could stop you getting info out of EA.
Brought aup a good point here. Dcorbe isn't too willing to hold onto the bandwagon that he engineered, despite him being so sure it was under valid pretenses, and with information to gain. Now, even if his suspicions about q21 are correct, the only reason q21 would have to jump on dcorbe is if Erratus is his scumbuddy. Why else disrupt the lynch, and bring suspicion on himself? We could have at least pressured some information from Erratus, and moved on to q21. Instead, dcorbe noticed his bandwagon being picked at, and attacked. I don't htink dcorbe has enough invested in his bandwagons to be town.
q21 wrote:
And anyway, assuming three scum at the beginning of a 12 player game is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. It doesn't really help anyone much, but it isn't some outrageous assumption that indicates that he must know something. Yes, its perfectly possible that it was a scum slip, but it really isn't enough to justify the L-2 wagon on him.

Not a bad reason for day one, but we have two better suspects right now. I believe q21 is less suspicious, but that's me.
Confirm Vote: dcorbe

He doesn't post again until 104, when he realized that EA was going to get lynched no matter what he did and he FoSes EA with very little good reasoning in an attempt to distance himself. A complete reversal, mind you, from his previous position.

He does take the opportunity to take another pot-shot at me though hoping the mere appearance of impropriety on my part will help him save face when his scum buddy flips.

Then he drops off the planet again...

Just got back from work. i'll do the honors.

unvote, vote Erratus Apathos

Then comes back to drop the hammer in order to distance himself some more from his scum partner.

Looking at the wagon that formed on me on D1:

dcorbe (4): cybele, Erratus, q21, empking

EA wasn't the only scum on that wagon, methinks.

I'm having a hard time deciding if q21 is scum or if he's just extremely misguided, so I'm happy to leave him alive today in favor of a cybele lynch to see how his interactions with the rest of the group continue to pan out.

In conclusion:

HoS: q21,

mostly for a protracted argument with me in an attempt to derail the EA wagon[/b]

IGMEOY: empking,

mostly for post 76 which is an extremely misguided attempt to pick apart my wagon because I decided to go after q21 in order to shut down his coup on the EA wagon.

Vote: cybele

[Cephrir]

First off, your first Cybele quote is actually from me. Secondly, I don't really agree. You're basing both of your top two suspects almost entirely on interactions with you. What you said about Cybele especially... everything you say about him, you label him as scum and then say why, as scum, he is doing what he's doing, while it's entirely reasonable for a townie to do the same. I believe I expressed my concerns with your q21 suspicions yesterday. Having an argument with you =! attempting to derail a wagon. You're just deciding that they have scummy motives for no real reason.

[Empking]

So if I do it, its vote worthy but if someone else does it, its a null tell?

[dcorbe]

First off, your first Cybele quote is actually from me. Secondly, I don't really agree. You're basing both of your top two suspects almost entirely on interactions with you. What you said about Cybele especially... everything you say about him, you label him as scum and then say why, as scum, he is doing what he's doing, while it's entirely reasonable for a townie to do the same. I believe I expressed my concerns with your q21 suspicions yesterday. Having an argument with you =! attempting to derail a wagon. You're just deciding that they have scummy motives for no real reason.

What's wrong with drawing conclusions from his interactions with me? Especially considering I was practically the only one he interacted with.

Notice I dinged him for his actions too, chiefly:

1) He was so adamantly against an EA wagon
2) He lurked
3) He attacked me opportunistically using someone else's argument against me
4) He lurked some more
5) He hammered someone whose wagon he was against.

[massive]

But even with the assumption that EA was going to be eventually lynched one way or another, do you think it would be good scumplay on Cybele's part to hammer his/her partner? People WERE clamoring for a replacement, despite how detrimental it could have been to the game. If Cybele is scum, why not ride it out a bit?

[dcorbe]

But even with the assumption that EA was going to be eventually lynched one way or another, do you think it would be good scumplay on Cybele's part to hammer his/her partner? People WERE clamoring for a replacement, despite how detrimental it could have been to the game. If Cybele is scum, why not ride it out a bit?

IF he is scum (as you say) why would letting him ride it out be a good idea? Who would you propose we concentrate on instead?

Do you believe that a Cybele wagon would have any merit at all at this point?

[dcorbe]

BTW I don't like all this blatant defending going on. If you care to hop on a bandwagon because you agree with my reasoning that's fine, but if you blast me before the target of my aggression has a chance to respond to me, then it sort of comes off like you're not actually interested in doing any scum hunting at all.

[massive]

If Cybele is scum, what would he gain from letting EA / EA's replacement hang at L-1? Well, for one major thing, at least a CHANCE that EA wouldn't be lynched at all. In the event that someone DID replace in and roleclaim due to the pressure, Cybele-scum could also have been rewarded should someone counterclaim EA. Even if it's only a day, I think Cybele-scum would have waited.

In fact, I'd kinda expect scum to act more like YOU did. Your switch off of EA to q21 was OMGUS-y, especially when you claim you are voting EA to pressure him, and then jump off once the strain starts to show on EA. You continuously reiterate that EA's bandwagon is for information and not for lynching. You place the assumed-hammer vote without really lynching EA, then say that it's still possible someone could replace in and claim. Really, the only saving grace is that I can apply the same sort of logic about hammering your own scumbuddy in the face of replacement as I'm applying to Cybele.

So no, I don't think a Cybele wagon has much merit right now.

I'm curious how kuribo called out EA on his scumtell slip but somehow NEVER voted for EA.

vote kuribo

[Cephrir]

dcorbe:_Your_first_point_in_155_is_invalid_because_it_refers_to_a_quote_which_I_pointed_out_was_not_from_Cybele.
Lurking_is_not_a_scumtell,_and_massive_has_a_point_about_the_hammer.__I_think_there_are_definitely_better_targets.
You_did_not_acknowledge_what_I_said_about_your_post's_assumption_that_your_targets_are_scum.

Apologies_for_the_underscores_=/

[roflcopter]

i think that both q21 and empking have some splaining to do. i agree with lowell/cephrir re: empking, and yesterday q21 was chainsaw defending erratus by going after dcorbe for the erratus wagon.

i don't see the case against cybele. massive is right i think about what cybele-scum would have done in the situation he was in, versus what cybele actually did.

vote: empking

[q21]

Apparently I have some splaining to do.

I originally posted my suspicions about dcorbe based on the fact that he seemed to change from serious is bad to serious is good just when it would give him reason to bandwagon EA. I also mentioned that I didn't like the reason the bandwagon started on EA and didn't feel it was worth L-2 so early in the game. Apparently that amounted to defending EA and when he came up scum I knew I would probably take some heat for it today and so be it. I am prepared to answer for any and every action I have committed.

I think my actions yesterday are summed up by the simple statement that it is a townies job to call out anything and everything they disagree with and this is what I did.

/splaining

With EA flipping town I don't like the way dcorbe took the very first route out of voting for him (voting for me) it seemed like he was relieved that there was suddenly someone he though he could pressure other than his scumbuddy. When it became clear that EA was going to be lynched anyway he was sure to jump back on.

I also don't like the way he seems to think we have to target the people he wants to target.

BTW I don't like all this blatant defending going on. If you care to hop on a bandwagon because you agree with my reasoning that's fine, but if you blast me before the target of my aggression has a chance to respond to me, then it sort of comes off like you're not actually interested in doing any scum hunting at all.

Yeah, people who target you aren't scum hunting..? Heaven forfend that the scum we might be hunting is you.

I'm thinking "bussing scumbuddy".

vote dcorbe

[dcorbe]

I've already explained why I felt it necessary to put a vote out there on q21, but I'll go through the process again because it keeps coming up. This will probably be the last time I say this before I start ignoring it.

1) I felt as if the EA wagon was going to fall apart because I had to telegraph my intentions to get q21 to stop his relentless assault on my wagon.

I was just simply wrong in this assumption

2) I'm not demanding that anyone be targeted, though I still support the wagoning process in its fullest. I tried to make my case against cybele and it isn't panning out like I had hoped, but I'm not sitting here arguing with people about it like you seem to enjoy doing.

[q21]

I've already explained why I felt it necessary to put a vote out there on q21, but I'll go through the process again because it keeps coming up. This will probably be the last time I say this before I start ignoring it.

1) I felt as if the EA wagon was going to fall apart because I had to telegraph my intentions to get q21 to stop his relentless assault on my wagon.

I was just simply wrong in this assumption

I fully believe this, but its part of why I think you're scummy. You were bussing your buddie, you saw something that you thought would help the wagon fall apart and you jumped on and tried to exacerbate it. My assault on your wagon was far from relentless, mostly it was just me responding to you.

2) I'm not demanding that anyone be targeted, though I still support the wagoning process in its fullest. I tried to make my case against cybele and it isn't panning out like I had hoped, but I'm not sitting here arguing with people about it like you seem to enjoy doing.

But dcorbe, you're supposed to argue your cases, not just make them and hope a wagon forms.

[dcorbe]

But dcorbe, you're supposed to argue your cases, not just make them and hope a wagon forms.

And when he drops some more scum tells so that I have more to go on I'll continue arguing the case. This goes back to what I was saying about people blasting me before I can get responses from the people I'm targeting directly. Why should he respond now? Someone else already shut me down on his behalf.

I would have really preferred to hear what HE had to say, not you or massive or Cephrir.

Notice I haven't unvoted him yet, or even stated that my suspicion has subsided. I'm still interested in HIS response to my criticisms

[dcorbe]

@q21:

and BTW all you seem to do is twist my words around and strawman me. I would definitely call that an all out assault.

What do you think of roflcopter's use of the word "chainsaw" to describe your actions yesterday?

[kuribo]

I'm curious how kuribo called out EA on his scumtell slip but somehow NEVER voted for EA.

vote kuribo

Not only did I call him out on it, but I pointed it out myself and kept up the pressure. I didn't have to do any of that, and it would be a little extreme to be "bussing."


PS- you can meta this if you like, but I was at work when you guys hammered him.

But your lame case against me has been filed in the back of my brain for further review.

[q21]

@q21:

and BTW all you seem to do is twist my words around and strawman me. I would definitely call that an all out assault.

What do you think of roflcopter's use of the word "chainsaw" to describe your actions yesterday?

Point out how and where I have twisted your words and strawmanned you. I believe everything I've said about you is a fair interpretation, pointing out those things instead of just complaining I'm doing them is much more likely to stop me feeling you're scum.

I think that by "chainsaw defence" he means that I was attacking you with the sole intention of helping EA. He is wrong, but I agree that my actions may look that way and am aware that EA being scum doesn't reflect well on me.

Oh, and with reference to your post 165, I haven't mentioned anything about your case on Cybele.

[Cephrir]

q21_wins_the_argument_IMO_but_I_prefer_my_vote_for_the_time_being.__dcorbe_appears_to_somewhat_be_flailing.

[kuribo]

And anyway, assuming three scum at the beginning of a 12 player game is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. It doesn't really help anyone much, but it isn't some outrageous assumption that indicates that he

must

know something. Yes, its perfectly possible that it was a scum slip, but it really isn't enough to justify the L-2 wagon on him.

Making excuses for the Slip, I see. Went after dcorbe hardcore because of the wagon against EA.

[q21]

Just pointing out why I didn't think the Slip was necessarily a scumtell.

Originally went after dcorbe mostly because he told me off for being serious (which he had to contrive since I was being anything but serious) and then when Cephrir told him not to take things so seriously he went on to say that we had to be serious.

[q21]

Oh, and Cephrir:

You're dead. Stop posting.

[kuribo]

Cephrir is going to replace dRool89 for me unless anyone has any objections to him resuurecting into a new body (and role!)

[q21]

Right. Now I'm REALLY confused.