Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[scamper]

i am arguing that i made no attempt to capitalize on it and the crux of your argument is scum!me was trying to miselim don to save galron

[scamper]

if thats the case then why are you doubling down on it?

Because you keep asking about it and I am a fool who is unable to stop trying to explain my thought process in a vain attempt to be understood

i dunno. my problem is while i dont think its outrageous to see me as scum here your thought process doesnt seem very good to me and has serious issues with its logic but you are either unwilling or unable to admit to these flaws when i criticize your thought process

[scamper]

this is one of those cases where its hard because i dont really have a baseline of if you normally think this way as town - granted the same is applicable to me

[Coral]

no, ur point is that i suspected don and galron was pushing don so that makes us likely to be partners because galron made a post about how we should elim don so we must be communicating in the pt.

This is clearly not my point because if these events were what happened then I wouldn't be talking about it since it's obviously a non-issue. Maybe that's what it looks like to you, but I think I've been clear enough already. One last time, though.

Galron entered, having not read the thread, seemingly under the impression that a Don elimination was imminent.

That's weird. That's unusual. Why would he think that? One possibility is that he simply was just thinking back to his prior push there, and hoped that by some miracle everyone would follow him. One possibility is that he skimmed a bit and saw some pushes towards Don, so he thought they were likely. One possibility is that his scum partner was trying to get Don elimmed, and mentioned that plan.

I'm not sure which possibility is most likely. Maybe #2 is. #3 seemed compelling to me, but I could just be wrong. You probably wouldn't have chosen this point to tear apart if it was exactly correct, so I kind of am doubting that it was at this point, but oh well.

In the case of #3, which possible scum partner was trying to get Don elimmed? scamper was, certainly more than Datisi.

Yes, it's a bit of a leap. I don't think it's by any means guaranteed to be what happened, and like I said when I first brought it up, it's not something I would ever want to base a read on. It is a minor factor for me, though, and I do think that the reasoning is fine.

[Coral]

if "peak likelihood" of a don elim was...1 vote, from galron, and me, his alleged buddy, pushing him but NOT voting him, just criticizing his logic


thats not a compelling or believable case

I don't think this is worth talking about if you either can't or pretend to be unable to see that there was a significant amount of latent suspicion on Galron that hadn't been expressed in votes.

Oops, I meant on Don here.

[Coral]

i am arguing that i made no attempt to capitalize on it and the crux of your argument is scum!me was trying to miselim don to save galron

This is something that's much more worth disagreeing about, since other points that are actually important hinge on this. I'm happy to talk about this some more after I go eat some lunch.

[scamper]

ok, sure thing

[Coral]

i dunno. my problem is while i dont think its outrageous to see me as scum here your thought process doesnt seem very good to me and has serious issues with its logic but you are either unwilling or unable to admit to these flaws when i criticize your thought process

I don't really think the core of it is flawed, but I do understand how there's other possibilities and it could be wrong for me to judge that this one is more likely than any of the other, perhaps simpler, possibilities.

In my explanations I was trying to explain my original thought process rather than my current one. I am less convinced on the point now than I was originally.

[scamper]

no, ur point is that i suspected don and galron was pushing don so that makes us likely to be partners because galron made a post about how we should elim don so we must be communicating in the pt.

This is clearly not my point because if these events were what happened then I wouldn't be talking about it since it's obviously a non-issue. Maybe that's what it looks like to you, but I think I've been clear enough already. One last time, though.

Galron entered, having not read the thread, seemingly under the impression that a Don elimination was imminent.

That's weird. That's unusual. Why would he think that? One possibility is that he simply was just thinking back to his prior push there, and hoped that by some miracle everyone would follow him. One possibility is that he skimmed a bit and saw some pushes towards Don, so he thought they were likely. One possibility is that his scum partner was trying to get Don elimmed, and mentioned that plan.

I'm not sure which possibility is most likely. Maybe #2 is. #3 seemed compelling to me, but I could just be wrong. You probably wouldn't have chosen this point to tear apart if it was exactly correct, so I kind of am doubting that it was at this point, but oh well.

In the case of #3, which possible scum partner was trying to get Don elimmed? scamper was, certainly more than Datisi.

Yes, it's a bit of a leap. I don't think it's by any means guaranteed to be what happened, and like I said when I first brought it up, it's not something I would ever want to base a read on. It is a minor factor for me, though, and I do think that the reasoning is fine.

i dunno it kinda seems to me th most obvious possibility is that galron just didnt care about the game and that is the simplest and most logical answer

[Coral]

yes, you may be right. i will feel so vindicated if either of my scum PT predictions end up being correct though

[scamper]

i should say that last night my gut was screaming to me datisi was scum based on what i had reread. that was a feeling i hadnt really put into concrete words but its been hard to shake

the difficulty i have with you, have had with you this entire game, is that a lot of your posts just *sound* fake to me. i know thats unfair b/c theres not a lot you can do about that but i get that gut-level impression from reading your stuff

[Coral]

I would really like to hear if you do come up with reasons for datisi being scum because it's just really hard for me to see. I would say that my suspicion of you probably has more to do with the fact that i am having trouble seeing datisi as scum than it does with me seeing you as scum.

And if it helps at all, that's probably because I am using a different voice on this account, and sometimes I do have to force that a little bit. Similar, I think, to how your "fair enuf"s and "...."s and at the end of sentences and whatnot have read as fake at times, because I think there's some awkwardness in your attempts to imitate skitter that comes across as a bit forced

[scamper]

okay

i am not sure how high my confidence level is on it and i am trying to be a bit level here because if i go all in on calling him scum and its wrong it probably loses the game but i think there is a narrative that fits for him being scum. i will try to explain it when i have time to do so

i will say i think your framework for evaluating who is more likely to be scum is flawed (i mean, obviously i am biased). if you're scum you just saw me as the better push because i was unlikely to vote datisi. but if youre town i think the lens you are looking at things with is wrong and fundamentally flawed in how you try to differentiate players. again will try to get into that later.

[Datisi]

I probably would have if I had seen it happen live, but by the time I got there he had already been missing for several hours after claiming and that was much stronger of a reason for me. On seeing it as I was reading up, though, I did immediately think that it didn't seem like a role that really fit with my role, but I'm not very confident in my setup speculation abilities, so it wasn't a reason I was going to hang anything on.

as i was rereading d1, i realized just how anti-synergetic galron's roleclaim is with yours (i think i'd be expected of a rolecop to invest a claimed miller on n1)

i got excited bc i thought town!you would've also been thinking that way immediately

but i am less convinced on the validity of that read now since i did come up with it when i knew there was no rolecop

[Datisi]

didnt know what to do with my vote

i don't have issues with the reasons you had to scumread don

i'm asking bc i think there is a clear scum benefit to not immediately voting him but consistently pressuring him (mainly, figuring out the availability of the don misyeet)

bc your vote was on me to ~sort me~, so i'm curious why you weren't using your vote on don the same way

[Datisi]

like, some of scamper's posts are obviously like, bad in retrospect, but there seemed to be multiple points where he could've argued against a galron elim harder than he did. like if scum, it seems like he was planning on throwing shade on multiple people and hoping someone latches onto it so that galron doesn't flip, *but* he didn't do that in one of the bigger shitfights of arivaus, and there were better arguments he could've done against possible misyeets

like, if he's scum then he kinda-but-not-really let galron die, and that feels weird? at least it feels weird from a more experienced player, i probably would've been scumreading that from a newer player

and i'm wondering if d1 would've played out differently if a scumbuddy was more present, which scamper was, but coral wasn't really, at least not in the latter parts of the day

I don't understand why these points apply to making scamper town and not me? Just because I was busy that weekend, so I wouldn't have had time to post if I was scum? I was posting for around 3 hours on Saturday (and could have made time later in the day if I felt like it was important), but my focus was mostly on just kind of engaging with what was going on, I ended up finding some reasons to townread a few people, and didn't make any pushes on anything. If I were scum there I would have taken a more active role in pushing things towards a town elimination. I'm capable of doing that and it is generally my priority.

i mean, this isn't something that i can exactly verify

maybe scum!you was too busy to post, or too low motivation, and now you're claiming otherwise. maybe you thought laying low would be better, to hope town fucks up by themselves, rather than that you go trying to save galron, i don't know.

[Datisi]

jesus, this entire conversation about scumbuddy-told-galron-they're-getting-don-yeeted situation is making me wanna drink again

are either of you online? i obviously wanna hear what scamper has to say about his gut screaming at him, but also if we wanna do the fake-voting thing, i wanna do mine tonight since i will be going to sleep in an hour or so

coral, how well do you know my play / are familiar with my meta?

[Datisi]

I had a reason why I decided they were unlikely paired at that point, I'll try to look for what it was. I do remember that later that day, once Galron was looking like clearly scum, I reassessed the reason and decided it wasn't good. Maybe it was just that it felt like at that point both had disappeared and the game is never that easy? Xayah hadn't posted substantially for over 40 hours at the time I posted that. I think I also just tend to believe that it's very unlikely both of my top scumreads on day 1 are correct.

And I agree, it's unfortunate I wasn't around,

but I had important things going on all day.

I will just say that I think that it's pretty clear that I didn't make any real effort to push anyone in the days prior, or do anything to move things towards a town elimination. The fact that you did the same is part of the reason I feel you're more likely to be town. If you think I'm scum here, I'm just wondering what you think my approach or my plan was?

you said earlier you would've been more present if you were scum, right? how does that coexist with you here claiming you had important things to do?

i mean, if you're scum, i don't think you ever *want* to actually play d1 the way you played it. but if you were busy and you didn't have time to invest in turning the game around, i do think it's possible you decided to quietly and passively bus galron, because (1) you're not exactly adding fuel to the flame, so he could potentially get out of it, (2) you get to argue you wouldn't have played it that way

like it's obviously not optimal, but i also don't think it's that difficult to see?

[Datisi]

like specifically the "we both didn't push town on d1" is overlooking the difference that i was there and i had possible options that i could've pushed, and i was *there*

going mia for a bit in the game, then claiming "i didn't push on town" is weird because, technically yes, you didn't push on town, but you didn't do much to push on scum either

now i'm wondering if that line was a subtle pocket attempt

help

[Coral]

Hi, I'm lightly around!

[Coral]

coral, how well do you know my play / are familiar with my meta?

I would say pretty well.

[Coral]

you said earlier you would've been more present if you were scum, right? how does that coexist with you here claiming you had important things to do?

i mean, if you're scum, i don't think you ever *want* to actually play d1 the way you played it. but if you were busy and you didn't have time to invest in turning the game around, i do think it's possible you decided to quietly and passively bus galron, because (1) you're not exactly adding fuel to the flame, so he could potentially get out of it, (2) you get to argue you wouldn't have played it that way

like it's obviously not optimal, but i also don't think it's that difficult to see?

Sunday (North American time) I was busy all day and didn't post or even really check the thread at all. Saturday I had time to post, including the 3 hour window when I did post. I was referring to being more present on Friday or Saturday.

And I guess you can't know for sure, but that's just not really how I would play scum here. The time that I did spend posting on Saturday could have easily been spent doing anything useful to scum wincon if I were scum, and I don't think that any of it really was.

[Datisi]

coral, how well do you know my play / are familiar with my meta?

I would say pretty well.

mm, okay

based on the reads you have of me here, that is the feeling i got. i also got the feeling it could've been tmi, if you'd said you didn't know me *that* well.

pedit: i'll go check the days, i wasn't looking at timestamps when rereading

[scamper]

jesus, this entire conversation about scumbuddy-told-galron-they're-getting-don-yeeted situation is making me wanna drink again

are either of you online? i obviously wanna hear what scamper has to say about his gut screaming at him, but also if we wanna do the fake-voting thing, i wanna do mine tonight since i will be going to sleep in an hour or so

coral, how well do you know my play / are familiar with my meta?

i'm here now sorry

we can probably decide this in the pt if you wanna do it, that person won' have to place the vote tonight

[Coral]

like specifically the "we both didn't push town on d1" is overlooking the difference that i was there and i had possible options that i could've pushed, and i was *there*

going mia for a bit in the game, then claiming "i didn't push on town" is weird because, technically yes, you didn't push on town, but you didn't do much to push on scum either

now i'm wondering if that line was a subtle pocket attempt

help

Yes, that's true. I just meant that I felt like I didn't do anything to advance scum wincon. I don't see anything that you did to advance scum wincon day 1 either. feel like scamper attempted to.

I also think I was a little less active in thread early on since I didn't really feel a need to get townread (didn't want to get nightkilled + I thought that my role would be clearing since I didn't really expect there to be much more town power). And early games bore me a little bit as town. There's so many more fun things to do as scum