Mini 642: Bodyguard 7: (Game Over)

[CallMeLiam]

Said it wasn't for too townie, blatant misrepresentation is a great D1 scumtell.

unvote, vote: CallMeLiam

You say you're not using too townie, but that's exactly what it looks like.
You can say your vote's not OMGUS but once again that's what it looks like.

[TDC]

what->was..

[Alabaska J]

Said it wasn't for too townie, blatant misrepresentation is a great D1 scumtell.

unvote, vote: CallMeLiam

You say you're not using too townie, but that's exactly what it looks like.
You can say your vote's not OMGUS but once again that's what it looks like.

Sorry, it is not too townie if you have legit vibes. Some of what he has said just seems off.

Also, how is my vote OMGUS? You blatantly misrepresented me.

[CallMeLiam]

Sorry, it is not too townie if you have legit vibes. Some of what he has said just seems off.

Also, how is my vote OMGUS? You blatantly misrepresented me.

Your first action after reading the thread was a vote on me with minimal commentary and no discussion of other events. Like I said, you can say that it ain't...

[TDC]

Sorry, it is not too townie if you have legit vibes. Some of what he has said just seems off.

Could you point to any specific posts/sentences?

[Alabaska J]

Sorry, it is not too townie if you have legit vibes. Some of what he has said just seems off.

Also, how is my vote OMGUS? You blatantly misrepresented me.

Your first action after reading the thread was a vote on me with minimal commentary and no discussion of other events. Like I said, you can say that it ain't...

If you haven't noticed, we are on page

5

. When I posted we were on like three. Not much had happened, and the only person with a chance to give me vibes was BandB. Then you popped in…

[bird1111]

Vote Count:
Slaine Hayes (1): TDC
BridgesAndBaloons (1): TheSweatPantsNinja
TDC (1): Slaine Hayes
jonathantan86 (1): BridgesAndBaloons
Alabaska J (1): CallMeLiam
CallMeLiam (1): Alabaska J

Not voting (1): jonathantan86

With 7 alive it is 4 to lynch.

[bird1111]

Searching for a Slaine Hayes replacement now.

[jonathantan86]

A) I think that a power role is idiotic enough to mention something that would reveal themselves to be a power role. Are you serious? Is anyone here so dimwitted they're going show whether their a power role or not based on their responses to this? There's absolutely nothing they'd do different if they're a powerrole or not. Regardless whether I was power role or vanilla, I'd still post the numbers.

Well yes. A powerrole might post and question less to avoid drawing too much attention to him/herself, instead preferring to let a vanilla townie do the questioning (because vanilla townies are more "expendable").

B) that I am idiotic enough to believe that my master scum-plan will work. I'm not an idiot.

Um...*your* master scum-plan? Well the numbers are on the scum's side if they follow this plan (although a bit slightly, I concede).

I have to say Jonathan, the bussing Slaine Hayes thing looks very weak to me. I'm very wary of people using low activity as a reason for suspicion.
Of course it's entirely possible that BaB is scum and throwing all this up to make himself look very townie, but that's not the vibe I'm getting.

I was just bringing up the possibility that scum would want to spur conversation instead of lurk, that's all, and tried to logically conclude what would happen. So the bussing Slaine Hayes thing was not a concrete reason---just that I thought that the other scum would lurk (assuming all my earlier assumptions are correct, which might or might not be true) and Slaine Hayes seems to fit the bill (the "bussing" seems to support that, although I wouldn't hinge my vote based on that alone). Having said that, it seems that Slaine Hayes is inactive for other reasons than being a lurking scum, so that's not an issue anymore.

BaB, who are your top candidates for the two scum, if you have any?

[TDC]

Alabaska: I guess you're either ignoring me or you think you already answered my question.
I don't think CML misrepresented you:
Your case consisted of

Really feels like scum to me hiding behind a strategy that would help the town.

a) You show what made you feel that way.
or
b) It

is

too townie.

I was just bringing up the possibility that scum would want to spur conversation instead of lurk, that's all, and tried to logically conclude what would happen.

So you're saying that in this setup, discussing the setup is anti-town?
To be honest, while I see where you're getting with scum trying to find the power roles (which is something they'd want to do in every setup, not just this one..) you seem to ignore the "danger" for them to drop scum tells while doing so.

Also, please note my sig.

[bird1111]

killa seven replaces Slaine Hayes.

[CallMeLiam]

If you haven't noticed, we are on page

5

. When I posted we were on like three. Not much had happened, and the only person with a chance to give me vibes was BandB. Then you popped in…

OK, so even if you hadn't seen anything on the proceeding page of chatter your case against BaB still amounts to 'too townie' with vibes. Since you decided not to say where the vibe came from then your case amounts to 'too townie'. Saying it isn't does not make that so.
The fact that you've been pretty much ignoring TDC's contribution to this debate while going after me like a rabid dog doesn't do much to help your 'not omgus' case too. My main concern here is that you're shouting down my points without backing up your statements, and that's not how I see townies acting.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

a) You show what made you feel that way.
or
b) It is too townie.

Its not too townie. The

actual

pro-town benefits of what bab provided are far, far smaller than the amount of time bab spent talking about this strategy.

That's not acting too townie, that's putting a lot of effort into appearing pro-town without actually providing the town with much.

[TDC]

Your last sentence would've been an acceptable answer to a).

[killa seven]

whats up

[BridgesAndBaloons]

A powerrole might post and question less to avoid drawing too much attention to him/herself, instead preferring to let a vanilla townie do the questioning (because vanilla townies are more "expendable").

Why isn't this this case for

every single game

? If what you're saying it true, it would be universally true (power roles posting less), especially when people speculate about the setup (which happens in most closed games). So, if you're right, scum should in all games know who to NK just based on who posts the least?
That's what you just said.

Um...*your* master scum-plan? Well the numbers are on the scum's side if they follow this plan (although a bit slightly, I concede).

I was making fun of you. You're making all these wild accusations about me making a huge plan to try to catch power roles. You're not voting either. I think you're making this points against me to see if any fish (townies) bite.

BaB, who are your top candidates for the two scum, if you have any?

Do you mean a scum-pair (two people connected together)?
Or do you want my top two suspects?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

The fact that

you've been pretty much ignoring TDC's contribution to this debate

while going after me like a rabid dog doesn't do much to help your 'not omgus' case too. My main concern here is that you're shouting down my points without backing up your statements, and that's not how I see townies acting.

I really am curious to see the response to this.

I'm also marking this quote to look at later.

Killa seven:

'sup.
Oh, and any comments on the game so far?

[jonathantan86]

So you're saying that in this setup, discussing the setup is anti-town?
To be honest, while I see where you're getting with scum trying to find the power roles (which is something they'd want to do in every setup, not just this one..) you seem to ignore the "danger" for them to drop scum tells while doing so.

No, discussing the setup is not anti-town per se. But picking fights with others might be.

I'm not ignoring the "danger" that they will drop a scum tell. I just think that the numbers show that it's worth the while taking the scumtell-risk to investigate power roles.

Why isn't this this case for every single game? If what you're saying it true, it would be universally true (power roles posting less), especially when people speculate about the setup (which happens in most closed games). So, if you're right, scum should in all games know who to NK just based on who posts the least?
That's what you just said.

Of course it's not true for every game. I just think this is correct strategy, and thus is probably how most townies and powerroles will play.

I was making fun of you. You're making all these wild accusations about me making a huge plan to try to catch power roles. You're not voting either. I think you're making this points against me to see if any fish (townies) bite.

Okay, to ask your question back to you...how would a townie bite and how would the scum benefit from that? And secondly, how is my supposed "wild accusation" of you different from you accusing others?

Do you mean a scum-pair (two people connected together)?
Or do you want my top two suspects?

Whichever you are "more sure of" or prefer to say.

By the way, how I came about to mention the possibility that BaB is scum is:

A. The best scum strategy (I think) would be to try to "out" the power roles, willing to take the scumtell-risk.
B. BaB seems to have been doing that the most. (And also, he knows about the numbers, and the numbers seem to tell that the best scum strategy is as above.)

I don't have anything better to go on. Do you all think A and B above are plausible?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Okay, to ask your question back to you...how would a townie bite and how would the scum benefit from that? And secondly, how is my supposed "wild accusation" of you different from you accusing others?

Well, if you are scum, then you would love to have townies mislynch. When you made post 94, there were already 2 votes on me. That puts me at L-2. You couldn't possibly put me at L-1 without drawing attention to yourself, so instead, on post 94, you attack me while not voting, explaining not only that I am scum, but that a lurker is my scum-buddy. It really seems that you're hoping for someone else to put me at L-1.
A townie could "bite" by voting me. If a townie successfully "bites," then it would really help you (as scum, assuming you're scum), since you'd be able to put a townie at L-1, maybe get to hammer them yourself or get me to claim.
Your "Wild accusation" is wild because you made so huge of a stretch, claiming me to be scum AND extrapolating my scum-buddy from some really elaborate plan that doesn't even make sense. Plus, the fact that you don't even put a vote with your case is suspicious.

I'm also a little suspicious. On post 94, you demonstrated your understanding of the numbers and logic. So, why didn't

you

mention the towns best strategy in the beginning.

NOTE:

I just reread post 94 and came to see your attack on me is alot weaker than what I previously thought it was. However; your recent actions (insisting that what you found is evidence for me to be scum) have led me to keep my vote on you.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Of course it's not true for every game. I just think this is correct strategy, and thus is probably how most townies and powerroles will play.

Um. . . no. Pro-town powerroles ought to attempt to hunt scum like everyone else. Having noncontributing powerroles is an excellent way to get powerroles outed.

[TDC]

The fact that

you've been pretty much ignoring TDC's contribution to this debate

while going after me like a rabid dog doesn't do much to help your 'not omgus' case too. My main concern here is that you're shouting down my points without backing up your statements, and that's not how I see townies acting.

I really am curious to see the response to this.

Me too. Though he's posted in GD that he suffered a concussion, so I guess we might have to wait a while.

A. The best scum strategy (I think) would be to try to "out" the power roles, willing to take the scumtell-risk.
B. BaB seems to have been doing that the most. (And also, he knows about the numbers, and the numbers seem to tell that the best scum strategy is as above.)

I don't have anything better to go on. Do you all think A and B above are plausible?

I don't really see how discussing the setup is going to make outing power roles "easier" than any other form of discussion (or bandwagoning for that matter).

What setup discussion could do is distracting from scum hunting.


Also my vote on k7 is not random anymore. Say something.

[jonathantan86]

Um. . . no. Pro-town powerroles ought to attempt to hunt scum like everyone else. Having noncontributing powerroles is an excellent way to get powerroles outed.

Yes, they should, but I still think there's a difference. There are tactics like "hunting for reactions" that townies rather than power roles should use. Anyway my point was it's possible to differentiate townies and powerroles if the conversation is "right" (for the scum).

I don't really see how discussing the setup is going to make outing power roles "easier" than any other form of discussion (or bandwagoning for that matter).

What setup discussion could do is distracting from scum hunting.

I was referring to BaB's attacking anyone that seems to disagree with him.

NOTE: I just reread post 94 and came to see your attack on me is alot weaker than what I previously thought it was. However; your recent actions (insisting that what you found is evidence for me to be scum) have led me to keep my vote on you.

Yes I was wondering why you thought I thought I had conclusive evidence that you were scum. I don't think I escalated my attack on you, though.

Your "Wild accusation" is wild because you made so huge of a stretch, claiming me to be scum AND extrapolating my scum-buddy from some really elaborate plan that doesn't even make sense. Plus, the fact that you don't even put a vote with your case is suspicious.

I'm also a little suspicious. On post 94, you demonstrated your understanding of the numbers and logic. So, why didn't you mention the towns best strategy in the beginning.

You say that my elaborate plan (which I don't think is that elaborate) doesn't make sense? But you also say that I have understanding of the numbers and logic?

You ask me why I didn't mention the town's best strategy in the beginning...this sounds very much like an ad hominem attack, attacking me instead of my points. Well, to answer the question anyway, I did not think much of the game setup at the beginning, and even if I did you would have beaten me to it.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I was referring to BaB's attacking anyone that seems to disagree with him.

First, this is a blatant

exaggeration

.
Second, I attack anyone who's

wrong

. If you say some ridiculous idea, I'm going to attack for it because it makes no sense.

you say that my elaborate plan (which I don't think is that elaborate) doesn't make sense? But you also say that I have understanding of the numbers and logic?

Gosh, you seriously are not even close to understanding what I said.

You

claimed that

I

had a master plan of trying to get power-roles to out themselves, which is just bull shit.
Also, how the hell does you attacking me for a ridiculous plan have anything to do with your understanding of numbers?

You ask me why I didn't mention the town's best strategy in the beginning...this sounds very much like an ad hominem attack, attacking me instead of my points.

Have you played a mafiagame online before? How much experience do you have out of this site? Please answer.

First of all, I actually attacked all your points. I defended all your attacks. Hell, I even made a point against you (about not putting me at L-1), and YOU completely ignored it.

Second of all, This is NOT ATTACKING YOU! If I was attacking you I would say something like, you're a horrible newb and nothing you say is right, because you're inexperienced you're wrong.
Or, I could say, you're a total jerk, and say mean things to everyone. You're not scum-hunting you're just insulting people.

Those are two examples of ad homineum attacking. (the best examples I could think of off the top of my head). What I did is questioned why you wouldn't explain to the town what the best strategy was. I didn't attack your character at all. If you were town, you would definitely want town to know the best strategy. So I was wondering why you didn't mention it. The answer you gave me is satisfactory for now.

[jonathantan86]

Have you played a mafiagame online before? How much experience do you have out of this site? Please answer.

If this is really important, yes I have, but only one. Apart from that, I am in two games currently including this one.

First of all, I actually attacked all your points. I defended all your attacks. Hell, I even made a point against you (about not putting me at L-1), and YOU completely ignored it.

I'm not sure what "attacks" of mine you are defending against. You say it's a huge stretch to believe that you are the scum and that you have made all the plans that I've posted, but have not actually said why my scum plans are wrong ("ridiculous").

That's why I mentioned "ad hominem". It seems to me that you were trying to divert attention onto my supposed lack of pro-townness by asking me why I didn't explain the strategy, and did not actually explain why my plans are wrong. (I was just pointing this out, if the rest of the players disagree that this is "ad hominem" it's fine.)

I did not vote for you because there were already quite a number of votes and I don't have conclusive evidence that you are scum. It's just that I'm thinking of what the scum would do and so far you fit the "profile" the most. It was not my intention to lynch you...and I did not expect anyone to just vote for you without discussing it first.

If I really believed you were scum, yes I would have put you at L-1. As it is now, though, I only have a "profile" to go on.

To everyone:
1) I think that the scum's best plan is to have at least one member (maybe the other can avoid controversy) actively engage in conversation to weed out powerroles, probing if necessary, even if it means risking a scum-tell. (The numbers are in an earlier post.) Do you agree with me?
2) Supposing I'm right (even if you think I'm not), who fits the profile above the most?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

[quote="jonathantan86"[ 1) I think that the scum's best plan is to have at least one member (maybe the other can avoid controversy) actively engage in conversation to weed out powerroles, probing if necessary, even if it means risking a scum-tell. (The numbers are in an earlier post.) Do you agree with me?
2) Supposing I'm right (even if you think I'm not), who fits the profile above the most? [/quote]

I disagree. Wholeheartedly. So much. Its in scum's best interest to not be predictable.

But, to humor the point:

I feel that alabaska, me, and bab, have all been relatively noisy, and cml, jt, slaine, and tdc have been relatively quiet.

(These estimations were made with no research whatsoever).