Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[habitang]

Sorry. My bad. I though Jahudo was responding there. Well my previous post still stands. But yeh
@ Matin: I can see how I have come up with a theory for Nurein's actions. And I can say my theories are not based on hard evidence, but just that, theories, still they prompt a response from those spoken against.
As for the focus on Jahudo, I have not posed any theory other than I think he is suspicious for scummy actions, evidenced 2, which will still require a response.
As for overtly leading, I am guilty of that. There has to be a point where conversation leads to something: preferable a unanimous lynch of scum, but without evidence leading to anything, then what's the point?
Also the Too Townie approach is definitely bad. Can we please not be accusing each other of being too townie, otherwise people have to start thinking about whether their comments may weigh too heavily on the Townie side and so be accused. I agree with Nureins on the no hiding in the forest stuff.

[Ythill]

1. Ythill QUICK vote after saying he doesnt like random-joke votes...
2. pope INSISTING on you so much
3. tpt voting back to Ythill in an OMGUS way
4. They playing to vote each other to DISTANCE in a semi-random phase...

1. It's my apology for refusing to post a random vote. I try to get a content-based vote out as soon as I have a lead, even if it's a minor one.

2. I wouldn't so much call it INSISTING as I would call it SLINGING MUD. Pope got too serious too quickly, then backed out, then voted for me. INSISTING would have involved more posts, more argument, and one less OMGUS hop.

3. Yes the vote was OMGUS, but I consider it a null-tell in most situations.

4. This is horrible play. Relying on conspiracy theories (assuming two players' alignments without knowing either) leads to confirmation bias and therefore mislynches. I welcome you to point out alignment tells against myself, Pope, or anyone else but... please... don't start accusing us of distancing until one of us has been confirmed as scum.

[habitang]

Oh cool! I forgot about the Vigilante role. And yeh I agree with YtHill on scum pairing, doesn't help, makes the game crazy to follow.

[Ythill]

I don't like nuriens' "beautiful dance" post (#75). It poses as being meaningful but is a study in ambivalence. He takes all sides without really saying anything, and he quietly discredits the arguments against Pope while doing so (which doesn't say

anything

about Pope's alignment).

@ nuriens: There's been time to see what's developed. Now, do you find me scummy? Or Pope? Or both? Or neither? Why?

@ habit: Good catch on the possibility of Jahudo mason-fishing, but I think it's equally likley he's scum-hunting and the rest of his posts have given me a townie feel (all gut, but that's okay at this point). Can you show why his comment is more likley to come from scum than town?

[Jahudo]

I just want a clarification, but your defense against the Pope is that he is your partner?

Seems to be probing a bit too much in a way that benefits scum there.

I misinterpreted Simenon’s writing style, that’s all. How I saw it was that “TPT is town” sounded like “I know TPT is town”. And how could you know for sure this early unless he was in your role pm?

@ Jahudo: What does you took this line with a grain of salt mean? Just a clarification question.

I mean that I am taking the Pope’s posts with a grain of salt because now each post has a hint of sarcasm in it. (post 52, 62 86) He even agrees with this accusation in post 72. It doesn’t mean I think he’s scum now, but it will be harder for me at least to analyze him.

The self-vote is poor play as both town and scum, but it seems like something that townies do more often than scum, regardless.

He finds the action significant to comment on but then he does not give his opinion but rather a broad sweepign statement. To me, that is withholding information.

I did not say those words. That was Goatrevolt in post 78.

FoS: habitang

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

[nureins]

(@Simenon)I dislike how you make many posts, but with little content. Enough reason to change my random vote into a non-random one.

Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence. Even most of my thoughts are already posted by others.

What I did not like especially from Simenon was two things. First, just saying that someone is town when that person is at L-2. If you really think he is town, why havent you tried to explain it carefully ? there are plenty of players voting for him ! So your words can only generate more votes on him...

Sure you can still have fun with posts but a self-vote isn’t funny. It gives the impression that you are possibly bluffing, which doesn’t help town, or possibly can’t take criticism, which could mean you go defensive and overly cautious.

At some point, I was tempted to accept TPT's behavior as newbie and/or as very emotional...and I was interested into confirming such with metainformation (as we announced we were about to do). What I really found surprising is that TPT directly announced that he is:

-an experienced player
-someone that calculates a lot his actions (as he wanted not to be meta-studied and so on...

From this point on, the issue on his autovote is no longer a stupid thing for me...it is a serious one. He raised in my scuMETER. Im not gonna vote him for the moment, but Im no longer so open to consider his action a newbie-emotional stupidity...

4. I don’t see if this was answered but OMGUS is when you vote for someone simply because they voted for you. But nureins, how are they trying to ‘distance’ each other? This seems to bring in more attention.

Jahudo, I completely agree with you. Precisely I said that I could not really believe these two people had preplanned this game. This let us with the fact that one of them (at most) would be mafia...
As I told in that 1 to 4 (and then 5 and 6) points, I started with the possibility that only 1 or 3 were a bit credible. Ectomancer seems to believe Ythill is more townie than TPT. Can I assume that you too ? Indeed, I had serious doubts before the information he gave on his experience.

Also, having been so careful as to choose a different game to play with, etc etc, having thought so much about his participation in this forum, etc etc, is it credible he is not aware what an OMGUS is ? This is my second game ever (in any forum, and even in my complete life, i havent played before !) and I KNOW what an OMGUS is from the first game (and even having some curiosity on the wiki i had found it before my first game)...

Right now I'm reading TPT's self-vote and sarcastic responses as townie frustration at a perceived unworthy bandwagon on him. The self-vote is poor play as both town and scum, but it seems like something that townies do more often than scum, regardless.

I read the same at first, goat. Now I'm less sure after what I describe on his experience...

I believe he said he wasn't inexperienced. Perhaps in his experience people are more likely to unvote someone who votes themselves, even while giving them grief over it.
Or perhaps not. I would not read that he is town out of his action though, not the way Simenon and yourself appear to have. I reserve my judgement on him, but he doesnt deserve to be lynched today, even without a claim yet.

Ectomancer, you come back to my side by far (welcome back to my scumeter deepness), as you have had my SAME thoughts...Im gonna perform this exercise all days, I think is fruitful (the exercise is to answer all the mails appeared from my previous post one by one, without reading all of them before...Im liking it !!)

I am not defending pope. I am stating my opinion on him. The two are not the same.

Do not take it personal and close in your shell. People is telling you that your opinions can only be useful if they are reasoned...otherwise, as I told before, your words can only put tpt under more pressure and this is bad if you think he is town, is that right ??

@nureins
That expression is meaningless unless you qualify it.

you did two things:

quicly said that TPT was town without any argument
voting the only other participant with a relevant number of votes

both at the same time. This sounds suspicious to me. Of course, it can be a casual thing, or maybe is just that you take a side in the "battle" it was over the table. Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...

The way you phrased that sounds like stating a fact rather than an opinion. It is strange to state something like that without explaining yourself.

@simenon: You see, I take Cass' reaction as a townie one. I had the same, and it seems to me that tpt+you is appearing in the mind of some people very softly. It has appeared into mine as to do the following:

unvote

FOS: simenon

FOS: tpt

Im not gonna cast my vote yet. I want to wait to read all the posts (this night has been fruitful !!) especially because it is a MILD FOS and i dont want tpt to be pressured more than just answering back some questions...

It's almost like I'm intentionally contradicting myself.

Really, TPT, why are you doing this ? Think a bit if you are townie, this is not helping us. I yet have a lot of doubts, but it is difficult to find people to defend you if you act like that. Especially if you have no metagames to defend you and you claim to be so experienced...

I do it all the time. Since this is a normal game with day roles being highly unlikely, I feel there's little harm in phrasing that way. It has more of an impact.

Why do you have your words to have more of an impact if you are not so sure about tpt ? that is the point. You are mildly convinced that he is town, so ponder your words about him. Im very mildly suspicious of him, so Ill not launch serious words on him. Do the same, this helps to know how much you value him. And overall, it helps you give your reasons. Please give your reasons.

I did that last time and I was Townie so I can sympathyise a little, but at the same time, I don't really think you were pushed to the edge like me to pull out a self-vote. It is either really childish or actually scummy as someone mentioned above, I think.

What the hell leads a townie to vote himself ? Tell me the stupid-emotional circumstances under which you did that. I wanted to understand better if this is really possible and why, to see if TPT was around that...
Cass, did you refer to that stupid thing of habitang when you meta-talked to him ?? how serious is this guy ? (habitang, abstain to answer the last question, haha)

@nureins: your location says Spain. Are you spanish?

Yes I am. Ok, Thanks for answering my questions. my view on the issue has changed a lot since I formulated as this post clearly states, but thx anyway, the more opinions the more clear I have my mind...

Nureins is also goign under the microscope, asking groups of people seems like a way for confusion, it prompts those people asked to answer, as compared to askign eveyrone, where those who find relevance wil answer. Also it seems liek a distancing technique, to include your partner's name in the list amongst other names. To protect your partner's identity if he gets lynched. If you are going to ask a group of people, why not just ask eveyrone?
Also a result of it is not very pro-town when thsoe who aren't asked have teh license to not give their opinion.

I do not agree at all. I wanted the opinion of all those who "participated" in the issue involved. Including the name of people forces them to answer back sometimes. I wanted especially the opinion of these guys, so I wrote their names. I do not see the distancing technique, as I was asking them for information, not accusing any of them. In this mail I'm writting all my opinions...
Of course everyone is very welcome to give their opinions in my words even if I do not include their name. That is obvious...

And why would I want to cooperate with the town? Oh, right, you're all so sure that I'm a townie now, right? Night hasn't passed.

My advice is for you to stop that arrogance, TPT. This is not gonna help you. Some people like Ectomancer have unvoted you (I would have unvoted you coz I would have feared up a quick lynch by couple of emotional people). This doesnt mean the unvoters stopped believing you are scum. Indeed, I truly believe lot of people (including me) have scummy impressions on you. If you are town and just behaving arrogant, think of it...

I don't have specifics to reference, but this posts struck me as overtly leading. As if you are trying to bait the hook with theories against a couple of players to see if other innocent players pick up on them and run with it..

Umm nice exercise this of answering one by one. I cheer you up again, matin. If you want to talk more on habitang, please comment to me, I had the same impression. But TPT is absorbing so much attention than the rest vanishes...

If your "theory" is right, matin, lets speculate a little bit. Is there a connection between this game and TPT's one ? habitang told a emotional story (I almost was crying ) about townies voting themselves haha...what do you think, Matin ?

[nureins]

1. It's my apology for refusing to post a random vote. I try to get a content-based vote out as soon as I have a lead, even if it's a minor one.

2. I wouldn't so much call it INSISTING as I would call it SLINGING MUD. Pope got too serious too quickly, then backed out, then voted for me. INSISTING would have involved more posts, more argument, and one less OMGUS hop.

3. Yes the vote was OMGUS, but I consider it a null-tell in most situations.

4. This is horrible play. Relying on conspiracy theories (assuming two players' alignments without knowing either) leads to confirmation bias and therefore mislynches. I welcome you to point out alignment tells against myself, Pope, or anyone else but... please... don't start accusing us of distancing until one of us has been confirmed as scum.

Thank you Ythill. Answering to you with detail, I already said that 4 was not possible to me. I just extracted these 4 "theories" about the dance all of you were playing, and I wanted to hear opinions on them. I advanced that 1 and 3 were my "favourite" even if very very mild. Now probably I have to admit that Ectomancer didnt fail "me" (but yet I didnt like his vote, Ecto, allow me this at the same time I swallow my pride by accepting your superiority ). Im starting to believe more the 2 one...

So please, reconsider your last sentence. I havent accused you of anything. Writting down these big words creates unhelpful messages in the air

[nureins]

@ nuriens: There's been time to see what's developed. Now, do you find me scummy? Or Pope? Or both? Or neither? Why?

I was simulposting at the same time you wrote this...and you can see there all my answers. This is Spain, I hope you dont pretend me to write at 4 a.m.

Now during the day I can be active answering from time to time some posts. And at the morning I can do a big one as I did today...

Now time to work. Enjoy the day...

[habitang]

Poah! What a mouthful by Nureins! I will read it later, probably tomorrow. Anyhows, just wanted to apologise to Jahudo for putting words in his mouth previously. Jahudo is correct in saying it was Goatrevolt who said those things.
Unintentional misquote I assure you.
I have no idea what mason-fishing is, but it sounds good, wohoo to me!
Thanks to Jahudo for the salt explanation but I now must ask YtHill for his explanation of mason-hunting.

[habitang]

Oh nvm I wiki-ed what mason fishign is. And if I had read properly in teh first place I would have found that you were nto saying I was mason-fishing anyway.
OH man I gotta read better. That's like my second or third misreading already. Btw, it's funny, my last game, I misread/miscounted and got myself hammered. lol. Cass can bear witness to that.

SOmeone asked about this above? Basically I voted for myself because I knew I had put eveyrone's suspcion on me, so to help Town I'd rather be lynched Day 1 than survive anotehr day only to have everyone's eyes on me and get lynched Day 1 which would of been a bigger strain on Town than if I just got lynched Day 1. I voted myself for teh greater good. But this is not exactly teh same case here. No more asking about that game, you can go read it yourself Dasquian's party in Road to Rome. It's irrelevant.

@ Ythill: I don't have much more argument to bring against Jahudo at this stage. Basically it was the possiblity of mason-fishing and then it was the misquote of Goatrevolt.

[Simenon]

Ok. I can see how that makes a bigger impression on the words you say if you are confident about them during more serious investigations, but if you had reason to doubt you’d explain that too though? At this point we’re more or less even anyway.

It's an impression. It's a feeling. It's my gut. I don't see a scum reacting the way TPT did. It has nothing to do "scum-tells" or other notable quackery. If I had a reason to state, I would have stated it.

@ Simeon: I didn't choose to refrain from arguing. I opted to refrain from arguing at that moment, for two reasons. (1) I was leaving for work. (2) Pope's answer caught me a little off guard because I couldn't imagine anyone claiming that his previous statement (#25) was a joke.

So, in other words, you chose not to argue it, whatever your reasons.

I do understand the tactic of posting statements like "TPT is town" even when one is not sure, but I would like to read at least a summary of your reasons for finding him innocent.

Pope losing his cool might be obnoxious and bad for the town, but it feels genuine enough to me. And I feel the players pushing his wagon are scummy.

Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence.

what

If you really think he is town, why havent you tried to explain it carefully ?

Why was it necessary that I do?

there are plenty of players voting for him ! So your words can only generate more votes on him...

what

Do not take it personal and close in your shell.

I am neither taking it "personal" nor closing in my "shell". Brevity is the soul of good mafia posting.

People is telling you that your opinions can only be useful if they are reasoned...otherwise, as I told before, your words can only put tpt under more pressure and this is bad if you think he is town, is that right ??

Them's people are wrong. Later in the game, if/when Pope dies, they can look at my statement and know exactly what I felt about Pope. A statement like that has no unnecessary embellishment. I'm a telling it like it is.

you did two things:

quicly said that TPT was town without any argument

See, there you go again. Your use of "quickly" makes no sense here unless you clarify what it means.

voting the only other participant with a relevant number of votes

Good for me. I'm glad I did. Without bandwagons, mafia would be a near impossible game.

Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...

The one way a player can possibly emulate the brilliance that is MeMe is by not stating reasons for why a player is town. In fact, I regret making the original statement. It can only help the scum:
1. If a player is established by everyone to be town, it greatly increases the likelyhood for a townsperson to be nightkilled.
2. I am not going to try to move any votes off of someone unless I have a reason other than "this person is a better lynch." Voting is the best possible tool out there for gathering information. I am not going to corrupt that natural process.
As for why Ythill is scum, well, I stated my reasons already.

Why do you have your words to have more of an impact if you are not so sure about tpt ? that is the point.

Nobody can be sure until he's dead.

You are mildly convinced that he is town, so ponder your words about him.

Okay okay okay. When did I say "mildly convinced?" You wouldn't call an object "a tiny bit humongous". I'm not "convinced" at all. But he appears town to me. That's enough for me to state as much.

Do the same, this helps to know how much you value him.

Don't lecture.

Also, I'll note you said "what the hell could lead a townie to vote himself." So you are noting someone with a rational mind wouldn't vote himself. But then why would a scum ever want to? It's generally not in a scum's interest to react irrationally. Now, faking that irrationality is a whole different story. But I don't think Pope's doing that. That's an emotional reason for not supporting Pope's lynch. And, on page 5, that is definitely enough.

~~~~
The above post is

way

too long.

[nureins]

Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence.

what

The essence of Cass' argument, though i would not have written it so plain, probably because my suspicions on all of you are milder than hers...but I agree with the essence of her argument...

If you really think he is town, why havent you tried to explain it carefully ?

Why was it necessary that I do?

If you are town, you have only created more suspicions on you and him.

there are plenty of players voting for him ! So your words can only generate more votes on him...

what

do you want me to repeat ?
my opinion is:
1. u defend him with reasonable arguments, u decrease the number of votes on him.
2. u defend him without arguments, u increase the number of votes on him and on you...

of course, this is only my opinion, you can have whichever you want.

[People is telling you that your opinions can only be useful if they are reasoned...otherwise, as I told before, your words can only put tpt under more pressure and this is bad if you think he is town, is that right ??

Them's people are wrong. Later in the game, if/when Pope dies, they can look at my statement and know exactly what I felt about Pope. A statement like that has no unnecessary embellishment. I'm a telling it like it is.

Oh congratulations, People is wrong and you appear as being correct after the lynch of an innocent...and ?? is this a way to help the town ? I think no...

1. quickly said that TPT was town without any argument.
2.voting the only other participant with a relevant number of votes

1. See, there you go again. Your use of "quickly" makes no sense here unless you clarify what it means.
2. Good for me. I'm glad I did. Without bandwagons, mafia would be a near impossible game.

quickly simply meant without a written reflection. So maybe you had a reflection, but we havent seen it, and you yet do not expose it...even you said it is just your impression, your clinical eye

There was a bandwagon on TPT. If Bandwagons are the essence of the game, why didnt you remained on it to extract more information? why you tried to deviate attention from this bandwagon to another at this precise moment, instead of defending with arguments the person inside the bandwagon ?

Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...

The one way a player can possibly emulate the brilliance that is MeMe is by not stating reasons for why a player is town. In fact, I regret making the original statement. It can only help the scum:
1. If a player is established by everyone to be town, it greatly increases the likelyhood for a townsperson to be nightkilled.
2. I am not going to try to move any votes off of someone unless I have a reason other than "this person is a better lynch." Voting is the best possible tool out there for gathering information. I am not going to corrupt that natural process.

As for why Ythill is scum, well, I stated my reasons already.

Not very precisely, but here you are right. You did.

Also, I'll note you said "what the hell could lead a townie to vote himself."
So you are noting someone with a rational mind wouldn't vote himself.
But then why would a scum ever want to?

No. My sentence means how could a RATIONAL TOWNIE would do that ??
This is the part I cannot understand. This leads me IRRATIONAL TOWNIE OR SCUM. And I have serious doubts on irrationality, given TPT's post, therefore... (you can end up the logical argument). In any case, I asked for information about Voting Oneself, since it is something completely new for me, so I wanted more information.

[Cass]

Cass, did you refer to that stupid thing of habitang when you meta-talked to him ?? how serious is this guy ?

I can't go into that, but read his posts in Newbie 643 and judge for yourself.

I much dislike the way TPT is posting, defending himself with 'I was not serious'. You're not helping town, at all. As things stand, I would prefer a TPT lynch at the end of the day - but I'm in no hurry to end this day. It is quite interesting...

Habitang is blundering about, but in his case that's a nulltell.

I do not like Simenon's explanation. Posting gut feelings (for that's what it was...) as if they are facts confuses things. And even more so in the long run. It also makes it very easy for him to backtrack on things he has said, later in the game. My vote stays where it is.

[Goatrevolt]

Cass: Do you think it's acceptable to lynch townies under the guise of "they aren't helping" or do you legitimately think TPT is scum?

[Cass]

Well, I think not helping town is generally a scum-tell But yes, if there is no evidence on anyone, I think lynching the least helpful player is not a bad thing. It's the smallest loss for town, and he might just be scum... I much prefer evidence, though.

[Simenon]

Even if I do not agree with the words, I do agree with the essence.

what

The essence of Cass' argument, though i would not have written it so plain, probably because my suspicions on all of you are milder than hers...but I agree with the essence of her argument...

Explain what that essence is, because it isn't clear to me.

If you are town, you have only created more suspicions on you and him.

Both you and Cass like to throw out assertions without backing them up, and then when they're questioned, throw out more assertions. It's not helpful or clear.

do you want me to repeat ?
my opinion is:
1. u defend him with reasonable arguments, u decrease the number of votes on him.

See: I have no interest in decreasing the votes on him.

2. u defend him without arguments, u increase the number of votes on him and on you...

Either prove it or stop making the point. Recycling the same argument and not explaining is really, really annoying.

Oh congratulations, People is wrong and you appear as being correct after the lynch of an innocent...and ?? is this a way to help the town ? I think no...

I don't see how it hurts the town.

quickly simply meant without a written reflection.

That's a bizarre usage of "quickly".

There was a bandwagon on TPT. If Bandwagons are the essence of the game, why didnt you remained on it to extract more information? why you tried to deviate attention from this bandwagon to another at this precise moment, instead of defending with arguments the person inside the bandwagon ?

I have already stated that I felt the bandwagon was a bad one. I like bandwagons, but I'm not going to back a bad one. Ythill had already developed as an option at that point.

Precisely, to know which one is the correct, Id like to know your reasons and carefully describe them. Why TPT is town, why ythill is scum. You seem to be participating a lot. Please do not take things as personal and try to answer the questions of others and to give all of us arguments for a better vote...

No. My sentence means how could a RATIONAL TOWNIE would do that ??
This is the part I cannot understand. This leads me IRRATIONAL TOWNIE OR SCUM. And I have serious doubts on irrationality, given TPT's post, therefore... (you can end up the logical argument). In any case, I asked for information about Voting Oneself, since it is something completely new for me, so I wanted more information.

1. You shredded the quotation to fit your point. That's not compelling.
2. A scum has no reason to vote oneself either. So, the only option that's left is "irrational townie" or "scum who is trying to act like an irrational townie." I felt the former.

I do not like Simenon's explanation. Posting gut feelings (for that's what it was...) as if they are facts confuses things. And even more so in the long run. It also makes it very easy for him to backtrack on things he has said, later in the game. My vote stays where it is.

1. Show where I've posted "gut feelings" as fact.
2. Show where I've backtracked.

If you don't quote, post numbers please.
Assertions are lazy.

[Simenon]

Well, I think not helping town is generally a scum-tell But yes, if there is no evidence on anyone, I think lynching the least helpful player is not a bad thing. It's the smallest loss for town, and he might just be scum... I much prefer evidence, though.

Ugh. This post contains my three least favorite words: "scumtell", "evidence", and "least-helpful"

[Goatrevolt]

Well, I think not helping town is generally a scum-tell But yes, if there is no evidence on anyone, I think lynching the least helpful player is not a bad thing. It's the smallest loss for town, and he might just be scum... I much prefer evidence, though.

Ugh. This post contains my three least favorite words: "scumtell", "evidence", and "least-helpful"

You don't like evidence? That's gotta be some kind of a scumtell.

[Cass]

Both you and Cass like to throw out assertions without backing them up

That's what

you

did and what started this whole debate.

I have no interest in decreasing the votes on him.

I have already stated that I felt the bandwagon was a bad one. I like bandwagons, but I'm not going to back a bad one.

How is saying someone is town, and the badnwagon on them is bad,

not

a defense of that person?

1. Show where I've posted "gut feelings" as fact.

the only option that's left is "irrational townie" or "scum who is trying to act like an irrational townie." I

felt

the former.

(Bolding mine.) Yet you posted 'TPT is town', and refused to explain that.

2. Show where I've backtracked.

You haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it. The excuse 'short posts are good' will not convince me.

A question: isn't 'TPT is town' an assertion? Isn't your explanation of that comment full of assertions? Or are these very special, rare,

good assertions

?

[Simenon]

Both you and Cass like to throw out assertions without backing them up

That's what

you

did and what started this whole debate.

It was an assertion, but I was not using it as grounds for an accusation.

How is saying someone is town, and the badnwagon on them is bad,

not

a defense of that person?

Because I haven't commented on any of the reasons why people might suspect TPT. I've merely stated my feelings on the matter; I haven't actually responded to any of the accusations.

1. Show where I've posted "gut feelings" as fact.

the only option that's left is "irrational townie" or "scum who is trying to act like an irrational townie." I

felt

the former.

Did I say that was a fact? I don't believe I said that was a fact. Hey, it appears I even used the world "felt", which suggests it was a feeling, not a fact!

You haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it. The excuse 'short posts are good' will not convince me.

That's pure crap. You can't seriously be accusing me of crimes I haven't committed, but

will

. That's plain silly.

A question: isn't 'TPT is town' an assertion? Isn't your explanation of that comment full of assertions? Or are these very special, rare,

good assertions

?

They certainly aren't the basis for a lynch, or a way to accuse someone of being scum. Your assertions actually require proving to be effective. Since I'm not trying to actively move votes with mine, mine do not.

[Ythill]

I'm getting a slightly more townie vibe from Sim lately, but I still don't agree with him about Pope.

@ Simeon: I didn't choose to refrain from arguing. I opted to refrain from arguing

at that moment

, for two reasons. (1) I was leaving for work. (2) Pope's answer caught me a little off guard because I couldn't imagine anyone claiming that his previous statement (#25) was a joke.

So, in other words, you chose not to argue it, whatever your reasons.

Absouletly not. Choosing to argue something

later, after consideration

is not the same as choosing to not argue it at all. You seem too bright to have misread that accidentally, but I'll ask rather than assume. Did you?

@ nureins: You've got it wrong about Sim and Pope. Sim's baseless "defense" might be said to tarnish his rep, but it doesn't tarnish Pope's.

If

Sim is lynched and flips mafia, it would be strong evidence of Pope being townie. But, once again, you're heading down the road toward conspiracy theory.

It may be just your posting style, but I'm starting to become suspicious of someone who is willing to say so much without actually taking a stand.

@ habit: mason-fishing = role fishing for masons

Ugh. This post contains my three least favorite words: "scumtell", "evidence", and "least-helpful"

You don't like evidence? That's gotta be some kind of a scumtell.

That's the least-helpful thing you've posted.

[Jahudo]

@habitang
If you misquoted me on accident then that’s okay. The quote in question about TPT’s self-vote was similar to something I said earlier, but I wasn’t sure whether you were more interested in my responses or my reaction to a spotlight. As far as mason-fishing I didn’t know it came out like that. I wasn’t even familiar with the term and strategy since I’ve only played newbie games so far.

But now I see what Simenon meant more clearly.

Post 119

Because I haven't commented on any of the reasons why people might suspect TPT. I've merely stated my feelings on the matter; I haven't actually responded to any of the accusations.

I think this says enough on the subject. At this early stage in the game there’s going to be a lot more gut feelings to go on and it won’t be until later that enough of someone has been revealed to make a lynch look acceptable.

I also agree somewhat with your feeling that TPT is an irrational townie. His vote and questions on Matin still seem like a reach but again it was early in the game and like you say gut feelings can be motivators for who you focus on and vote. From TPT’s perspective, and not as text, the jokes could fit better. Aside from these things it is too early to pressure TPT beyond the point where his only option is to defend what little he has said and continues to say. But when I see a self-vote the first thing that comes to mind is someone that doesn’t want to play anymore.

Post 120

Absouletly not. Choosing to argue something later, after consideration is not the same as choosing to not argue it at all. You seem too bright to have misread that accidentally, but I'll ask rather than assume. Did you?

And give a chance for TPT to say something on his own that’s not under the pressure of the first things he’s said since getting into this game; that way we learn more about him because since the self-vote he’s become quieter. Maybe we’ll see a different side of him and that could change or reinforce our opinions of him. I don’t think that’s wrong to want at all.

Post 114

Well, I think not helping town is generally a scum-tell Wink But yes, if there is no evidence on anyone, I think lynching the least helpful player is not a bad thing. It's the smallest loss for town, and he might just be scum... I much prefer evidence, though.

If someone continues to be that way after a long period of time then I think more good and bad points about their character would be revealed and would probably be higher on most people’s suspicions anyway. Maybe they’re just bad at defending themselves or just too cautious in scum-hunting but together with other things make a more compelling case against them. So I only think TPT has gone one step in the wrong direction and when he stops voting himself maybe he’ll make a move elsewhere.

Post 93

And why would I want to cooperate with the town? Oh, right, you're all so sure that I'm a townie now, right? Night hasn't passed. I haven't been investigated, yet. No one really knows for sure. Even then, what if I end up being a Godfather; undetectable to a cop? Or what if I'm a milller, and wrongfully thought of as being scum?

Still, it’s posts like these that I think people have the most opposition towards.

[Erratus Apathos]

Vote Count

The Pope's Tiara: (3) nhat, Ythill, The Pope's Tiara
Ythill: (2) habitang, Simenon
Simenon: (2) Andycyca, Cass
Jahudo: (1) Matin

Not voting: Jahudo, Goatrevolt, Ectomancer, nureins

[Andycyca]

I've read it all and will answer.

[nhat]

Oh Lawd, this game done blew up, gonna have to do a reread. Peoples be making some

long ass

posts.