Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[nureins]

I dont think I failed us, as he definitely squealed and we've had reactions to that.

However, I'm also not certain I am prepared to yield to Simenon's assessment of TPT either.

I dont think it either Ecto. I put a big laugh in my comment. The point was that lot of people is joining an almost laughable wagon. So I made a bit of fun in the fact that you did too.

Im writting down the reactions of all people in this beautiful dance people is playing around pope and ythill. Of course a bit of scummish attitude can be extracted from pope (and from others around). And if you see Simenon's last action, I'm not prepared either. He JUMPED over Ythill as a fast runner. Let's see what appears from all this debate.

I mantain the vote on Ythill but I announce randomness has not disappeared a lot...after this beautiful dance among so many players I might be ready to cast a less random vote.

[Cass]

TPT is town, by the way.

Why are you so sure?

I dislike how you make many posts, but with little content. Enough reason to change my random vote into a non-random one.

Unvote
Vote: Simenon

[Jahudo]

I wasn't trying to say that at all. I know that it's hard to detect sarcasm when typed (sometimes) and that my posts weren't written by an idiot, just by someone who tends to quick scribble stuff down without thinking.

Even if we accept that you started out in the random vote stage being funny it was your own questions that led me and others to view that stage was ending, and that we should take each post more carefully and seriously. Sure you can still have fun with posts but a self-vote isn’t funny. It gives the impression that you are possibly bluffing, which doesn’t help town, or possibly can’t take criticism, which could mean you go defensive and overly cautious.

TPT is town, by the way.

I just want a clarification, but your defense against the Pope is that he is your partner?

It seems this random vote is exploding...I want to know your opinions in the 4 points I wrote before (feel free to say all of them are ridiculous, i almost think they are ) and in the following extra two

1. Ythill QUICK vote after saying he doesnt like random-joke votes...
2. pope INSISTING on you so much
3. tpt voting back to Ythill in an OMGUS way
4. They playing to vote each other to DISTANCE in a semi-random phase...

1. I think his vote was serious, not random. He based the vote off a question from Pope’s #41 post, which does stick out if you don’t connect the Jack Nicholson joke after it. Pope’s question was loaded even though he did not FoS or vote matin.

2. Until he voted for Ythill it could be interpreted that Pope was focusing his random vote time too much on one person, creating something out of nothing.

I already know what you are. Your secret is safe with me.

3. Well the Pope says he knows and he wouldn’t be joking would he?[/sarcasm] Of course, if he did have information it wouldn’t be pro-town to keep it to himself, but I took this line with a grain of salt.

OMGUS: (What does this mean?)

4. I don’t see if this was answered but OMGUS is when you vote for someone simply because they voted for you. But nureins, how are they trying to ‘distance’ each other? This seems to bring in more attention.

5. Ectomancer thinks all is a joke but he doesnt understand that tpt might also be joking and casts on him a fourth vote, SUSPICIOUS?

6. I ask u this because you are the only not voting now, and u unvoted ectomancer, so i guess your answer to five is NO (mine is also no) but want to know how you perceive all this struggle...random voting is typically unvoted when u put ur vote on someone else , were u planning to do it ?

5. I thought it could be a bluff like ‘you really want to try and lynch someone this early and get a dead townie?’ or maybe he was over anxious in the random voting stage and now that serious votes are cast on him he isn’t handling the pressure well. Regardless of the reason, self-votes are bad news.

I hope the Pope settles down and unvotes himself or we’ll never be able to take him seriously.

6. It’s more my style to question first and get responses before voting. But,

FoS: Simenon

You defend the Pope but give no reasoning. You also vote for the person on Pope’s offensive but again do not provide the reasons for why he is wrong. You said Ythill “backed down” but didn’t change his vote? What Ythill said was that he’d “consider that response” which is something you have do or it will lead to tunnel vision.

[Goatrevolt]

Why are you trying to appear to gather information out of a series of irrelevant posts?

Why do you think those posts are irrelevant, because they are jokes? Meaningful stuff happens during the random phase, and people shouldn't be given a free pass to say whatever they want because it's the random phase.

Anyway,

Unvote

.

Right now I'm reading TPT's self-vote and sarcastic responses as townie frustration at a perceived unworthy bandwagon on him. The self-vote is poor play as both town and scum, but it seems like something that townies do more often than scum, regardless.

I feel like TPT is saying "You guys think you're so smart. We'll see how smart you really are when you lynch me and I'm town." That whole "prove you wrong" mentality is not a natural scum reaction, because nobody will actually be proven wrong.

[Ectomancer]

Why are you trying to appear to gather information out of a series of irrelevant posts?

Why do you think those posts are irrelevant, because they are jokes? Meaningful stuff happens during the random phase, and people shouldn't be given a free pass to say whatever they want because it's the random phase.

Anyway,

Unvote

.

Right now I'm reading TPT's self-vote and sarcastic responses as townie frustration at a perceived unworthy bandwagon on him. The self-vote is poor play as both town and scum, but it seems like something that townies do more often than scum, regardless.

I feel like TPT is saying "You guys think you're so smart. We'll see how smart you really are when you lynch me and I'm town." That whole "prove you wrong" mentality is not a natural scum reaction, because nobody will actually be proven wrong.

I believe he said he wasn't inexperienced. Perhaps in his experience people are more likely to unvote someone who votes themselves, even while giving them grief over it.
Or perhaps not. I would not read that he is town out of his action though, not the way Simenon and yourself appear to have. I reserve my judgement on him, but he doesnt deserve to be lynched today, even without a claim yet.
Now, what is this Ythill business? I see random and OMGUS, but what is habitang on there for again?

[Ectomancer]

oh yes

unvote

[Goatrevolt]

Ecto: I haven't written him off yet. My read is that his response was a frustrated townie response, but I reserve the right to change my mind on him based on new information.

[Matin]

I'll help you out a bit.

Yes, I've played this quite a bit before in real life and in a few small corners of the web.

No, you won't find anything about me as this is a new user name I picked up when joining here so that people couldn't try and meta game me, for a bit at least.

To clarify, you are saying your experienced in the game but you didn't know if you could self vote?

[Simenon]

TPT is town, by the way.

Why are you so sure?

I'm not sure. Where did I say I was sure?

I dislike how you make many posts, but with little content. Enough reason to change my random vote into a non-random one.

Unvote
Vote: Simenon

And yet, you have yet to point out where I'm adding "little content". I'm commenting on the game and trying to find scum. That, in my opinion, is enough content for me.

You defend the Pope but give no reasoning.

I am not defending pope. I am stating my opinion on him. The two are not the same.

You also vote for the person on Pope’s offensive but again do not provide the reasons for why he is wrong.

Yet, I never said I voted Ythill for his voting pope. I just stated my reason for voting him.

That's three straight incorrect assumptions in a row. One of these kinds of games, I guess.

What Ythill said was that he’d “consider that response” which is something you have do or it will lead to tunnel vision.

He had two options: argue it or not. And he chose the latter.

[Simenon]

And if you see Simenon's last action, I'm not prepared either. He JUMPED over Ythill as a fast runner. Let's see what appears from all this debate.

That expression is meaningless unless you qualify it.

[Cass]

TPT is town, by the way.

Why are you so sure?

I'm not sure. Where did I say I was sure?

The way you phrased that sounds like stating a fact rather than an opinion. It is strange to state something like that without explaining yourself.

I dislike how you make many posts, but with little content. Enough reason to change my random vote into a non-random one.

Unvote
Vote: Simenon

And yet, you have yet to point out where I'm adding "little content". I'm commenting on the game and trying to find scum. That, in my opinion, is enough content for me.

We'll see, the game has only just begun. Note that I'm not calling for your lynch, for now I just feel better about a vote on you than about one on Matin (my random vote).

[The Pope's Tiara]

I'll help you out a bit.

Yes, I've played this quite a bit before in real life and in a few small corners of the web.

No, you won't find anything about me as this is a new user name I picked up when joining here so that people couldn't try and meta game me, for a bit at least.

To clarify, you are saying your experienced in the game but you didn't know if you could self vote?

It's almost like I'm intentionally contradicting myself.

[Simenon]

TPT is town, by the way.

Why are you so sure?

I'm not sure. Where did I say I was sure?

The way you phrased that sounds like stating a fact rather than an opinion. It is strange to state something like that without explaining yourself.

I do it all the time. Since this is a normal game with day roles being highly unlikely, I feel there's little harm in phrasing that way. It has more of an impact.

[habitang]

Oh wow! This is like a SUPER game! So much posting, it is awesome compared to all the other games I've played!
LOL at whoever voted themself! I did that last time and I was Townie so I can sympathyise a little, but at the same time, I don't really think you were pushed to the edge like me to pull out a self-vote. It is either really childish or actually scummy as someone mentioned above, I think.
Sorry, don't have much time to make a proper post.
I also though ti funny how TPT did his prelude before voting YtHill. It sounded really scummy by trying to discover teh cop and stuff and then BAM vote Ythill. lol.
But yeh, my YtHIll vote was a joke vote at the start and I havn't had time to really read over everything yet. So

unvote:YtHill

Also I stand proved wrong about how joke-voting starts worthwhile discussion. But at the same time, I can see how the discussion doesn't involve eveyrone which worries me, such as how Nureins keeps only asking specific people, even though he asks a few, I have scum suspicions on that action but will explain later.
So no substantial post yet, just wanted to let eveyrone know I think this is a fantastic game with eveyrone posting so much.

[Jahudo]

The way you phrased that sounds like stating a fact rather than an opinion. It is strange to state something like that without explaining yourself.

I do it all the time. Since this is a normal game with day roles being highly unlikely, I feel there's little harm in phrasing that way. It has more of an impact.

Ok. I can see how that makes a bigger impression on the words you say if you are confident about them during more serious investigations, but if you had reason to doubt you’d explain that too though? At this point we’re more or less even anyway.

So the Pope has been mostly joking this whole time, thus he doesn’t need to be defending much of anything, thus Ythill who is making something serious out of Pope not being serious (which Ythill might/might not have identified as a joke at the time) has more need to back up and support his original claims and how the Pope & others have been posting lately.

I still have one of the same concerns as Ythill, though, and that is where the Pope was/is going with his posts. Their attitude, shortness, and disconnection with the general discussion now feel awkward as of post 86.

[Andycyca]

Fos: Jahudo

because he seems to be tryign to take it to the next level.

Because he's trying to do actual discussion?

Unvote, Vote: Ythill

Okay, so it isn't that safe.

OMGUS is, simply put, voting for someone just because he voted you (or, more generally, voting moved by someone else's vote on you)

Please explain to me how this is NOT OMGUS

Oh, P.S.

Unvote, Vote: The Pope's Tiara

I can do this right? Since you all seem to hate me and are obviously so much better at this game then I, you might as well lynch me first.

Wrong. There's no need to selfvote so early in the game for any faction. Why would you do that? (not a sarcastic question). If you're worried that people might mislynch you, stop playing this game. If, OTOH you want to cooperate with the Town, please unvote and continue discussing.

1. Ythill QUICK vote after saying he doesnt like random-joke votes...
2. pope INSISTING on you so much
3. tpt voting back to Ythill in an OMGUS way
4. They playing to vote each other to DISTANCE in a semi-random phase...

1. I don't agree with this. I've seen Ythill's play and this isn't quick or random. Pure meta here.
2. Insisting? Not that much to me, but not relevant anyway
3. Agree
4. Semi-random? What's that? Either we're in random or not (PS the answer is "we're not")

@nureins: your location says Spain. Are you spanish?

Unvote discussion has kicked off properly. More tomorrow.

[Andycyca]

also, @everyone: I'm starting school, so I'll only log in once a day if I can (always respecting the deadlines, obv)

[habitang]

Just a pointless side comment. All this sarcasm makes things a bit harder to understand. TPT justified his use of sarcasm with good reason, much better than saying 'I'm kidding'.

My focus is on Jahudo again. I accepted his first defence of my initial suspicions, which wasn't a significant suspicion.
But his latest post

I just want a clarification, but your defense against the Pope is that he is your partner?

Seems to be probing a bit too much in a way that benefits scum there.

The self-vote is poor play as both town and scum, but it seems like something that townies do more often than scum, regardless.

He finds the action significant to comment on but then he does not give his opinion but rather a broad sweepign statement. To me, that is withholding information.

@ Jahudo: What does you took this line with a grain of salt mean? Just a clarification question.

Nureins is also goign under the microscope, asking groups of people seems like a way for confusion, it prompts those people asked to answer, as compared to askign eveyrone, where those who find relevance wil answer. Also it seems liek a distancing technique, to include your partner's name in the list amongst other names. To protect your partner's identity if he gets lynched. If you are going to ask a group of people, why not just ask eveyrone?
Also a result of it is not very pro-town when thsoe who aren't asked have teh license to not give their opinion.

[The Pope's Tiara]

Unvote, Vote: Ythill

Okay, so it isn't that safe.

OMGUS is, simply put, voting for someone just because he voted you (or, more generally, voting moved by someone else's vote on you)

Please explain to me how this is NOT OMGUS

Oh, P.S.

Unvote, Vote: The Pope's Tiara

I can do this right? Since you all seem to hate me and are obviously so much better at this game then I, you might as well lynch me first.

Wrong. There's no need to selfvote so early in the game for any faction. Why would you do that? (not a sarcastic question). If you're worried that people might mislynch you, stop playing this game. If, OTOH you want to cooperate with the Town, please unvote and continue discussing.

Part 1: How is it OMGUS? Who says that I haven't been psycho-analyzing all of you? Meta-gaming each person in this thread to build a gigantic spreadsheet of knowledge and a complete profile on each person. Collecting every bit of detail with internet dectivetry. Finding out how you work, think, act, and post whilst playing different parts. Who says I haven't figured out that Ythill is scum? And I think we know who the other scum is

Part 2: If I was worried about mislynching, why would I offer up myself like that. Maybe I was trying a new strategy that failed and brought about a lot of unvoting?

What does OTOH stand for?

And why would I want to cooperate with the town? Oh, right, you're all so sure that I'm a townie now, right? Night hasn't passed. I haven't been investigated, yet. No one really knows for sure. Even then, what if I end up being a Godfather; undetectable to a cop? Or what if I'm a milller, and wrongfully thought of as being scum?

Do you really know even close to enough to back up what you've said? Everything posted has pretty much just been built on speculation. An almost absurd amount of speculatory material is being used to make accusations.

You know how, if you've ever played Clue, and you're so sure of the murder weapon, and the murderer, but it could be one of two rooms? Another player gets that look in their eye like they know what's what and are going to go for the win next turn. You're stuck there in quite a quagmire, make a guess based on speculations or wait it out and hope for the best? That's where you guys are, making that guess as the mafia gets the glint in their eye.

And if you make the wrong guess, I will watch in delight as the house of cards comes tumbling down.

I guess my only question for you is, why so serious?

[The Pope's Tiara]

(oh my, that quote should be attributed to Andycyca)

[habitang]

lol, one stupid [/quote] and I become the bad guy. Anyhows, that was an unnecessary rave, but I liek to have my sidenotes too.
Yeh but it was good to hear from Andycyca, who is yet to catch up on current happenings. I look forward to your post tomorrow.

[Goatrevolt]

TPT, I have no clue what parts of that last post were serious and what parts were not. If you want to cut out the heavy sarcasm, be my guest, because it certainly is not helping at all.

Do you really know even close to enough to back up what you've said? Everything posted has pretty much just been built on speculation. An almost absurd amount of speculatory material is being used to make accusations.

Speculation on people's alignments based on behavior is the entire point of the game of mafia, so I really have no clue why you're acting like we're so stupid for doing it. If we don't sit around and use information in the thread to come to conclusions about people's alignment, then what should we be doing instead? Please enlighten us.

Besides it's early day 1. There's not a whole to go on. People are going to wagon each other off of weak tells, and get early pictures of who is town/scum based on weak tells.

[Matin]

Just a pointless side comment. All this sarcasm makes things a bit harder to understand. TPT justified his use of sarcasm with good reason, much better than saying 'I'm kidding'.

My focus is on Jahudo again. I accepted his first defence of my initial suspicions, which wasn't a significant suspicion.
But his latest post

I just want a clarification, but your defense against the Pope is that he is your partner?

Seems to be probing a bit too much in a way that benefits scum there.

The self-vote is poor play as both town and scum, but it seems like something that townies do more often than scum, regardless.

He finds the action significant to comment on but then he does not give his opinion but rather a broad sweepign statement. To me, that is withholding information.

@ Jahudo: What does you took this line with a grain of salt mean? Just a clarification question.

Nureins is also goign under the microscope, asking groups of people seems like a way for confusion, it prompts those people asked to answer, as compared to askign eveyrone, where those who find relevance wil answer. Also it seems liek a distancing technique, to include your partner's name in the list amongst other names. To protect your partner's identity if he gets lynched. If you are going to ask a group of people, why not just ask eveyrone?
Also a result of it is not very pro-town when thsoe who aren't asked have teh license to not give their opinion.

I don't have specifics to reference, but this posts struck me as overtly leading. As if you are trying to bait the hook with theories against a couple of players to see if other innocent players pick up on them and run with it..

Seen scum do this a lot in the past..

FOS: habitang

[habitang]

You are using the 'Too Townie' tactic in that response.
I maintain my

FOS: Jahudo

[Ythill]

Wow... super activity levels. Forgive me if I'm a little slow in keeping up. I'm a busy guy and one of my other games is a little overwhelming ATM. Anyway...

@ Simeon: I didn't choose to refrain from arguing. I opted to refrain from arguing at that moment, for two reasons. (1) I was leaving for work. (2) Pope's answer caught me a little off guard because I couldn't imagine anyone claiming that his previous statement (#25) was a joke. So I decided to have another look before taking a stance, anlalyze what he'd said and when rather than just arguing against someone who might have been a townie I'd misread. That is not the same thing as backing down.

I do understand the tactic of posting statements like "TPT is town" even when one is not sure, but I would like to read at least a summary of your reasons for finding him innocent.

@ Pope: Now that I've considered your answer, I have some problems with it. The reason I took #41 as being serious was that your questions in #25 ("Are you trying to avoid acting scummy so as not to draw attention to yourself? Why would a townie be worried?") came off as very serious; too serious, in fact, for what had prompted them. Then Matin seemed to catch that same vibe, explicitly stating that his previous action had been a joke (which was obvious anyway).

Your answer was to post #41 and, now that you point it out, I do see the irony. But I still don't see anything funny (or even attempted funny) about #25. Nor do I see the benefit, for town, of ignoring the way Matin took you so seriously. I'm wondering if you realized you'd gone too far too soon and tried to back out with #41.

In the past two pages you have digressed into abstract posts, which has no benefit if you are town. Yet it could have the benefit of giving you the image of a VI/jester if you are scum. You are an intriguing case. I'm still not sure you're mafia of course, but I think you're the most suspicious at this point.