BROKEN SETUP! GAME OVER! 651

[Jshark]

Hai. We is playin Sense Motive. No one "flips" anything.

Sorry about this I went back and reread the rules. For some reason I was under the impression that the roles didn't show when nked, but they did when lynched. Well that throws my theory out the window and I'm back to square one.

[Crazy]

Fine, I'll just come out and say it:

I investigated Skitzer last night. It appears we are

not

on the same side. As well, someone contacted me and told me that I

am

on their side, and they told me another name that was on "our" side.

If they are both telling the truth, then that means that all three of us are town, because all of us said that our godfather-kill didn't go through.

So either one or both of these people PMing me are lying, or Skitzer is scum.

Vote: Skitzer

[Porkens]

Oh well what the hell.

I'm one of the people Crazy mentioned in his post. I wont 'out' our third personally, but I don't think it's a bad idea to come forward.

1. Last night I sensed <censored>. Result: Same Team.
2. <censored> sensed Crazy. Result: Same Team.
3. Crazy sensed Skitzer. Result: Not the same team.

My kill-order was on Verbal, I don't know about my team-mates.

The three of us ~might~ be lying to each other, but it doesn't feel like it to me.

So, now that I am holding hands with him...

unvote

Do the rest of you want to claim so we can see what our spider-web looks like?

[Porkens]

whoops.

vote: Skitzer

[iLord]

adfasfd

The more nights, the more information. As there are more townies then scum, as time goes on the growing information will outnumber the adverse affect of a nightkill - because a nk always does the same thing, while information is more and more useful as time goes on.

I believe the math that says a random lynch is better than a no lynch is pertinent here, so I'll go ahead and vote:Crazy. If a no-lynch is actually effective in this situation, please post the relevant math and I'll switch my vote to a no-lynch. But, really, I'd like more information before I speculate. I'm going to play it townie, as I'm more likely to be a townie then scum (4/5 chance townie, 1/5 chance goon) but I'd like to be sure before I finish figuring this all out. A second night could do that.

I didn't do any math, but lynching will give us zero information. It will be in no way beneficial to lynch as opposed to Sense Motiveing, which will give the alignment of the target.

I'm really not feeling this wagon on Crazy I have reason to believe that he is town and considering the fact that there are at most three scum on this wagon I suggest that town please avoid this wagon. I have reason to believe that Skitzer is against the town and I feel that if we lynch him we will better know where we stand. If Skitzer is scum then me and Crazy are cleared while if he falls town then the town will be close to a quick win. I'm taking a chance by siding with Crazy this early, but I really feel that from I've read that we are town and this would make Skitzer scum.

Okay, so you got ally on Crazy and enemy on Skitzer, at least.

Having re-read the rules (), this looks more or less correct to me. The Godfather won't be acting deliberately scummy, which makes picking him out difficult on the first day. Random lynch is possibly the only way to go.

No, it's not.

No lynching is the way to go.

It gives us more nights.

Just wanted to make this clear, since it's not explicitly stated in the rules (sorry! will fix): you must lynch every day. Sorry for not making that clear in the ruleset from the beginning >.<

NOOO!

There goes my brilliant plan.

I voted Crazy, mod. And since no lynch is not an option, and there's no information for anyone to go on, any bickering will just help scum here. Sorry, Crazy, but you got left in the random lurch.

You're too eager. We're going to lynch someone that everyone agrees to. And since Jshark has pointed out that he Sensed Motived Crazy as town, we leave both of them alone.

-------------------------------------

Jshark, Porkens, and Crazy.

You three have a chain, no?

Then you three are most likely all confirmed town. Skitzer is most likely scum then.

Unvote, Vote Skitzer.

[Crazy]

Yeah, the third in our threesome is Jshark.

[hitogoroshi]

I didn't do any math, but lynching will give us zero information. It will be in no way beneficial to lynch as opposed to Sense Motiveing, which will give the alignment of the target.

The bloody hell? 'As opposed to?' It's not "Do you want to lynch or sense?". It's "lynch, then we can sense".

And I kind of figured there was a chain - "I think Crazy is town and skitzer is scum", classy. But honestly I'm leaning towards them being instead a scum chain, simply because, instead of revealing the chain, you proceeded to - I don't even know what you did. Why would people who think they are a townie chain proceed to deny it and instead pull stuff like this

I have reason to believe that he is town and considering the fact that there are at most three scum on this wagon I suggest that town please avoid this wagon. I have reason to believe that Skitzer is against the town and I feel that if we lynch him we will better know where we stand. If Skitzer is scum then me and Crazy are cleared while if he falls town then the town will be close to a quick win. I'm taking a chance by siding with Crazy this early, but I really feel that from I've read that we are town and this would make Skitzer scum.

...really? REALLY?

As I'm aware, it's standard policy to lynch all liars. I'm not quite sure what to make of such a retarded story as this, but I DO know that I'm certainly not going to leave people alone because of "proof" they tell me.

Like I said, with so little to go on I advocate a random lynch to get to the second night, when the townie can actually CONFIRM chains and such. I picked Crazy because he had the wagon...and...ain't it funny that this chain springs up only when Crazy's in danger? When chains were requested, we got the stupid story I posted above, but when Crazy is in danger, whoa, lookit the nice chain. Also, Jshark was "outed" not by himself, but by Crazy. I don't think we should lynch someone because a couple of people swear he's scum. I think we should, Day 1, lynch randomly so the playerbase is more informed on Day 2 and we don't bicker when there's no information in play. These scummy methods of defense only solidify my idea that Crazy was a happy fluke - though I suppose people picked him because of his " I KNOW I'M NOT GODFATHER LOLZ" post. Huh. Kind've a coincidence, don't you think?

[kabenon007]

I too sensed Skitzer, and he was not on my team. Good job of revealing your chain there, guys.

Unvote, vote:skitzer

.

[Jshark]

Yeah I apologize for my odd way of revealing our chain I have just never played any theme games and wasn't sure how much information to reveal and I was under the impression that roles would be revealed upon lynching which I have been corrected on. As far as I am aware none of the three in our chain killed our selected targets so that's why I felt that we were town, but I wasn't sure if we should just claim the whole chain so in my attempt to not reveal everything it just made us seem more scummy.

[Jshark]

After going back and reading Hito seems to be highly defensive and seems to be for the Crazy wagon although it seems certain now that we are town. Perhaps Hito killed his target or is sided with Skitzer or against Crazy. Hito keeps claiming we will learn more at night after a random lynch, but it seems we are learning a lot from this first day as well so I do not see the need to hurry for a random lynch without first learning what we can from everyone as the scum accidentally reveal themselves.

[hitogoroshi]

You're missing the point, Jshark. What I'm saying is that scum can't "accidentally" reveal themselves, because the scum don't know they're scum! So all we're doing is trying to find tells in a game where they don't exist - ergo, right now. How can I be defensive? Sure, maybe I'm scum - I wouldn't know. (And of course, the GF can't even be sure they are the GF.) We are not learning a lot, what we're doing is getting false "data" the scum can refer to later and dress up fake scum when it was a townie who didn't even know their role. This kind of system can't teach you anything, but it does give you data that you can make up the reasons for. That is, it'll make you think you know things when you don't. Just realize how little information is in the system right now.

However, Kabes independent verification means that the number of people in on it is four, which is larger than scum. So, sure, I'll take it. I have reservations, but with four people I at least doubt we're falling into a trap. (Frankly, if there's a scum good enough to know their scum and get three players in on a conspiracy day one, we're doomed anyway.)

So, sure.

unvote, vote:skitzer.

We need to get to night so the scum know their scum and we actually have a chance of finding tells. This is a paradoxical situation of the longer the day, the WORSE it is for town.

[Porkens]

Hitogorshi:

As far as Jshark being "outed," I missed his "reason to believe" post when I replied with my chain claim.

I was hesitant to claim our connections at first for two reasons:

1. I hadn't quite wrapped my head around the game setup, and didn't know if a claim would be the best thing to do.

2. I didn't know if we were mafia or town, I would

certainly

rather loose one of us instead of outing ourselves as the only 3 scum. Hence my vote on Crazy when he started spouting "omfg not godfather."

Now, however, I've thought about the situation, and I've come to the conclusions that A) we must be town. And B) it's good to claim it.

-------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, for the reasoning behind A.

Let's look again at our chain:
1. Last night I sensed Jshark. Result: Same Team.
2. Jshark sensed Crazy. Result: Same Team.
3. Crazy sensed Skitzer. Result: Not the same team.


I know Jshark is on my team.


Jshark tied himself to Crazy by defending him in public. That tells me he isn't lying about his own sense.


Which means Crazy is also on my team. Crazy could be making up his sense, but that would be pretty schizophrenic.


Now, none of the three of us targeted someone who died last night; so none of us can be GF.


So; three townies*.
-------------------------------------------------------

*(Now, this all falls apart if, for some reason, Crazy is making up his sense OR (and this is more probable)

I

am lying to Jshark.)


Now, I will be awfully angry if either Jshark or Crazy's target DID die, and we've just outed ourselves as the only three scum in the game, but I don't think that's likely.

My proposed course of action for the town is to lynch Skitzer, and everyone talk to your known connections to coordinate a sense on either Jshark, myself, or Crazy tonight. By sheer numbers, we should be able to determine if we are three valiant town, or three dead dead scum.

[Porkens]

doublepost:

That's what I get for not reading the preview. I'm glad we're on board with this.

[Jshark]

You're missing the point, Jshark. What I'm saying is that scum can't "accidentally" reveal themselves, because the scum don't know they're scum! So all we're doing is trying to find tells in a game where they don't exist - ergo, right now. How can I be defensive? Sure, maybe I'm scum - I wouldn't know. (And of course, the GF can't even be sure they are the GF.) We are not learning a lot, what we're doing is getting false "data" the scum can refer to later and dress up fake scum when it was a townie who didn't even know their role. This kind of system can't teach you anything, but it does give you data that you can make up the reasons for. That is, it'll make you think you know things when you don't. Just realize how little information is in the system right now.

However, Kabes independent verification means that the number of people in on it is four, which is larger than scum. So, sure, I'll take it. I have reservations, but with four people I at least doubt we're falling into a trap. (Frankly, if there's a scum good enough to know their scum and get three players in on a conspiracy day one, we're doomed anyway.)

So, sure.

unvote, vote:skitzer.

We need to get to night so the scum know their scum and we actually have a chance of finding tells. This is a paradoxical situation of the longer the day, the WORSE it is for town.

You stated in your post prior to this that you felt that our chain was scummy because of the way I went about revealing it and now your trying to backtrack and say that scum cannot accidentally reveal themselves because they don't know their scum. You just went against your whole argument you had against us because Kabenon confirmed that our chain was town. In my opinion you have good reason to believe that you are against are chain. I stated earlier and I still feel that your either on the same team as skitzer or the more likely that you are not on the same team as Crazy. Furthermore, I will go back and check, but I don't think you have revealed your kill target or your sense motive and I'm not sure of the reason for this.

[Musher333]

I investigated Jshark, we are both on the same team, i think we have found our town line as so far there would be more than the normal amount of scum in one game.

[Verbal]

I might as well come out with mine now; I also sensed skitzer on the first night, and got the same result you guys did. That's what, 4 instances of skitzer being on the opposing team now? That confirms him as scum, as far as I'm aware. (For posterity, my kill target was Bogre)

I count 6 votes on Skitzer at the moment. That means he's been lynched anyway.

[Porkens]

with 12 alive, don't we need 7 to lynch?

[Verbal]

with 12 alive, don't we need 7 to lynch?

11 are alive, 6 to lynch.

[Porkens]

Oya, you're right!

[hitogoroshi]

You just went against your whole argument you had against us because Kabenon confirmed that our chain was town.

Yes, I did. There were three of you first, and your hiding of the chain was so tacky I didn't think it could possibly be town. But when the number was upped to four, that requires someone in the chain being town, making a conspiracy much less likely. So, yes, I did go against my whole argument, because new stuff came in to play. Notice how little everyone knows right now?

But thanks to the crazy improbable "everyone and their mother sensed skitzer" occurrence, it seems we lucked out. So thats good I guess.

As for my sense target - I have good reason to keep it under wraps. I need 2 pieces of information, and I have one. Tomorrow I'll tell you both of my targets, but right now it needs to stay hidden to the general public.

[Crazy]

I had PMed skitzer and lied, telling him that I was on the same team at him, just on the hope that he'd send me his sense information. But he never responded. I'm also in two other games with him, and he hasn't posted in those for a while either. I didn't really want to claim until he responded, but since you guys were so set on lynching me over semantics, I determined that it was necessary.

[iLord]

aadsfas

The bloody hell? 'As opposed to?' It's not "Do you want to lynch or sense?". It's "lynch, then we can sense".

No, lynch then sense doesn't work because we still can't figure out the alignment of the lynched.

And I kind of figured there was a chain - "I think Crazy is town and skitzer is scum", classy. But honestly I'm leaning towards them being instead a scum chain, simply because, instead of revealing the chain, you proceeded to - I don't even know what you did. Why would people who think they are a townie chain proceed to deny it and instead pull stuff like this

That's just horribly bad logic.

If they're scum, we basically win.

I am sure that many players will be sense motiving someone on the chain to figure out their alignment.

And if we end up with a bunch of "not allied," then we know we've caught scum.

Like I said, with so little to go on I advocate a random lynch to get to the second night, when the townie can actually CONFIRM chains and such. I picked Crazy because he had the wagon...and...ain't it funny that this chain springs up only when Crazy's in danger? When chains were requested, we got the stupid story I posted above, but when Crazy is in danger, whoa, lookit the nice chain. Also, Jshark was "outed" not by himself, but by Crazy. I don't think we should lynch someone because a couple of people swear he's scum. I think we should, Day 1, lynch randomly so the playerbase is more informed on Day 2 and we don't bicker when there's no information in play. These scummy methods of defense only solidify my idea that Crazy was a happy fluke - though I suppose people picked him because of his " I KNOW I'M NOT GODFATHER LOLZ" post. Huh. Kind've a coincidence, don't you think?

See above.

I'm willing to take them as town for now. If they're all scum, we'll know soon enough.

I too sensed Skitzer, and he was not on my team. Good job of revealing your chain there, guys. Unvote, vote:skitzer.

Why didn't you reveal this earlier?

You're missing the point, Jshark. What I'm saying is that scum can't "accidentally" reveal themselves, because the scum don't know they're scum! So all we're doing is trying to find tells in a game where they don't exist - ergo, right now. How can I be defensive? Sure, maybe I'm scum - I wouldn't know. (And of course, the GF can't even be sure they are the GF.) We are not learning a lot, what we're doing is getting false "data" the scum can refer to later and dress up fake scum when it was a townie who didn't even know their role. This kind of system can't teach you anything, but it does give you data that you can make up the reasons for. That is, it'll make you think you know things when you don't. Just realize how little information is in the system right now.

The godfather most likely has a very good idea of who he is, but regardless your point of the lack of behavior tells is generally true.

However, we have a wealth of information here. We have almost the equivilent of 11 cop investigations because scum claiming their investigations will be easily caught, especially if they think they're town.

So, sure. unvote, vote:skitzer. We need to get to night so the scum know their scum and we actually have a chance of finding tells. This is a paradoxical situation of the longer the day, the WORSE it is for town.

Long days are never worse for the town.

We can always ignore the irrelevant information.

And there is relevant information.

For example, if AAA claims that he got allied with the dead BBB, we can look back to see how they treated each other. If AAA attacked BBB, then we can most likely know that AAA is lying.

I might as well come out with mine now; I also sensed skitzer on the first night, and got the same result you guys did. That's what, 4 instances of skitzer being on the opposing team now? That confirms him as scum, as far as I'm aware. (For posterity, my kill target was Bogre)

I count 6 votes on Skitzer at the moment. That means he's been lynched anyway.

Why didn't you claim earlier?

[Porkens]

Why didn't you claim earlier?

iLord, why haven't YOU claimed your connections yet?

[iLord]

iLord, why haven't YOU claimed your connections yet?

Because I got an allied connection.

There's no point to claim it when you can just PM the player.

[Porkens]

There's no point to claim it when you can just PM the player.

Reall? I think there is value to setting down the connections in public record here in the main thread. What if you get NK'd and that information dies with you? It seems to me that only those who think they could be scum would want to keep their connections a secret.

Could you explain to me why it's pointless?