Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[SensFan]

Nothing, as far as I can see. Devellops a minor piece without hanging anything, which is what the goal of the early game is.

[SensFan]

Whoops,

move: Bc4

[Indigo Heron]

Suggesting silly moves the new scum tell for this game?

c5 isn't exactly a great move for the bN. I would play

move Nc3

instead

It's the Alapin Variation. I played against that in one of my earlier games on the site. However, I can't help but seeing that you're trying to make it look as if you do not know about it when it seems to me that you do. Just a hunch.

IGMEOY: Pesco47

Since we're playing against the Sicilian, I suggest Nf3. Bc4 is too newbie-ish to play. Since we are assuming that Black is going for the best move of the game, how do you think he'll react with THAT move?!

If we actually go ahead with this, which I doubt, Black would equalise for sure by taking control of the centre with d5 eventually, and would be gaining tempo by attacking a (in my opinion) premature bishop.

Move: Nc3

[Indigo Heron]

Sorry. Bolded in the wrong thing.

Unmove, Move: Nf3

[Gorrad]

Look, the obvious next move for black is Qa5. How would we resond to that best? A defensive perimiter of pawns. Moving the bishop is nice for offensive, but they've used an opening that, for the time being, requires some defense.

Also, keep in mind that they can discuss moves in secret, while we cannot. That means that they're at a serious advantage as far as planning strategy. As long as we're playing with an open hand, we're forced to either make offensive moves without discussion of future tactics (meaning they'd have to be obvious enough that scum could tell the future tactics as well) or play a very careful defensive game. The usual tactics don't work here.

[Indigo Heron]

But still...Bc4?! Nc3 may be a better alternative if you don't want the usual tactics.

[sirdanilot]

Look, the obvious next move for black is Qa5. How would we resond to that best? A defensive perimiter of pawns. Moving the bishop is nice for offensive, but they've used an opening that, for the time being, requires some defense.

Offense is the best defense.

Also, keep in mind that they can discuss moves in secret, while we cannot. That means that they're at a serious advantage as far as planning strategy. As long as we're playing with an open hand, we're forced to either make offensive moves without discussion of future tactics (meaning they'd have to be obvious enough that scum could tell the future tactics as well) or play a very careful defensive game. The usual tactics don't work here.

Now this is an interesting point. We can't plan smart tactics for the future, but we can negotiate about what the best move for the particular turn is and we should do that. Being defensive won't really solve anything.

[Pesco47]

Suggesting silly moves the new scum tell for this game?

c5 isn't exactly a great move for the bN. I would play

move Nc3

instead

It's the Alapin Variation. I played against that in one of my earlier games on the site. However, I can't help but seeing that you're trying to make it look as if you do not know about it when it seems to me that you do. Just a hunch.

IGMEOY: Pesco47

I'm not sure what you're on about here. All I can say is that I don't know my openings. I play my pieces as the game flows. Nc3 is what I would play in a 1-on-1 tournament game.

If we wanted to counter Qa5, a3 would be a better move. But, it is a play that is beyond me. I know it's an important move of some sort, but not how to follow it up. Nc3 can also counter Qa5, but it would be effective only a few more moves down the line.

I don't have a problem with playing Nf3, probably just that the move is so boring and doesn't pressure the queen's side center.

It's fine and all to be aggressive, but for this game, I feel trading of pieces will not work out in our favour as we near endgame.

[sirdanilot]

I don't see how a3 helps us against Qa5?

Anyway, nc3 looks like a reasonable option to me now.

[Lawrencelot]

Nf3 is way worse. It won't help us against the black queen, and it removes the possibilities for our own Queen. I also don't see how playing Nc3 helps us.

[Pesco47]

Nc3 is not immediately useful, it can be a threat a few moves down the line if you can plan ahead. It develops the knight on the side where black is coming from if they play Qa5. The knight also prevents Qa5 from pinning our d-pawn.

If black is really noob enough to be playing Qa5 on their 2nd move -
after we play Nc3: we can bring another piece out to the fight with Nf3, Bd3 to gain board control. The queen is no threat to our knight.

after we play Nf3: Nc3 for piece development, bringing the bishop out after Nf3 will likely result us in having to move the bishop again too soon and lose tempo.

after we play Bc4: Nf3 will be a priority to pressure the center. It is also likely that we'll be moving the bishop when black follows Qa5 with b5. Nc3 prevents the bishop from getting attacked when it moves to Bc4.

After all this bashing at black playing Qa5, they'll probably not play it. Other candidate moves that will come -
e5: the best counter to this would be Nf3 from us. We'll be a move ahead.

d5: we win a pawn if Bc4 or Nc3 was played, the resulting trade isn't too good for our position though.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I don't know a lot about Chess, but c5 is the typical opening for the Sicilian, one of the most played black openings of the last hundred years. There are a lot of variations after c5, but the basic opening is considered strong.

I would challenge black for d4, so Nf3 is my preferred move, with c3 as a secondary possibility to set up 3. d4. Either way it's not to our benefit to play Bc4, because it gives us little board control, blocks our development on the queen side, and will probably have to be pulled back later anyway. All in all, I think that Bc4 is giving black a free move.

I'm going to tentatively

Move:Nf3

, but I might support c3 or Nc3 if we really want to play a more closed game.

I'm gonna have to

FoS:Pesco47

as well, for saying that c5 is a "silly move" and then providing one of the more common responses to it. I don't think that's a clear scum move... anyone could have thought up Nc3, especially someone who likes knight play... but at this point in the game I want to be as unambiguous as possible about my thoughts.

Let me know what you think about moves.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

lol, I didn't see that there was a second page. Sorry to parrot indigo.

I definitely think we should

not

move Bc4... it's a super-weak move.

Lawrencelot: in chess, the point of the early going is generally to control the middle four squares of the board... a Bc4 doesn't really help us do that without something to support us. We're sticking that bishop out there without any support, and moreover impeding our own ability to develop queen side.

In response to your concerns about 2. ... Qa5, I think that black would be essentially wasting a move to do that. 3. c3 would make that a wasted move. And besides, what does black do after that?

[Gorrad]

Also, keep in mind that they can discuss moves in secret, while we cannot. That means that they're at a serious advantage as far as planning strategy. As long as we're playing with an open hand, we're forced to either make offensive moves without discussion of future tactics (meaning they'd have to be obvious enough that scum could tell the future tactics as well) or play a very careful defensive game. The usual tactics don't work here.

Now this is an interesting point. We can't plan smart tactics for the future, but we can negotiate about what the best move for the particular turn is and we should do that. Being defensive won't really solve anything.[/quote]

Playing defensively requires significantly less by way of long-term strategy. Offense requires a wide variety of thought, and if two people have different strategies, yet niether can discuss them and argue their points, we're stuck. Whereas with defense, the correct play is short term and can be discussed with ease.

Remember, if we give them any shot of an opening they WILL take it, as they know what we know. We have to play a close, protected game to have any shot of victory.

[Pesco47]

I'm gonna have to

FoS:Pesco47

as well, for saying that c5 is a "silly move" and then providing one of the more common responses to it. I don't think that's a clear scum move... anyone could have thought up Nc3, especially someone who likes knight play... but at this point in the game I want to be as unambiguous as possible about my thoughts.

Where did I call c5 a silly move? When I replied and called a move silly, it was in response to Bc4. Besides, it was black that made c5, if you think it was a silly move, then all the better for white.

[Lawrencelot]

lol, I didn't see that there was a second page. Sorry to parrot indigo.

I definitely think we should

not

move Bc4... it's a super-weak move.

Lawrencelot: in chess, the point of the early going is generally to control the middle four squares of the board... a Bc4 doesn't really help us do that without something to support us. We're sticking that bishop out there without any support, and moreover impeding our own ability to develop queen side.

In response to your concerns about 2. ... Qa5, I think that black would be essentially wasting a move to do that. 3. c3 would make that a wasted move. And besides, what does black do after that?

Thanks, I got it now. As such, I think Nc3 is our best option, but if someone can convince me otherwise, just try.

unmove; move: Nc3

[Goatrevolt]

A lot of discussion seems to be hinging around getting queens out early. From my experience, generally the lesser pieces, such as knights and bishops will duke it out early and gain control of the center until later on when the queens come out to play. If you pull your queen out too early, it becomes a merry-go-round where black keeps chasing your queen around the board while developing theirs at the same time.

Move Nf3

. Gets the knight out there and pushes for control of the center of the board. Nc3 also seems like a decent play.

Bc4 doesn't seem very strong to me, but if anyone has a decent case for it, I'll hear it out.

[sirdanilot]

move: Nc3

To me it looks better than Nf3, but there's not that much of a difference.

[Awesome Pants]

The third vote count!

Moves

nc3 (3) - Pesco47, sirdanilot, Lawrencelot
nf3 (3) - Indigo Heron, The Central Scrutinizer, Goatrevolt
bc4 (2) - Doomsday, SensFan
c3 (1) - Gorrad

Not voting (0)

Players

Not voting (9) - SensFan, Indigo Heron, Doomsday, Gorrad, Goatrevolt, Lawrencelot, sirdanilot, Pesco47, The Central Scrutinizer

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to move/lynch

@ Mod: If the exact same board position is reached 3 times in a game, are we going to get a forced draw?

Yep. I guess the rule of thumb is to assume that the outcome that would happen in a real chess game will happen here, but feel free to ask any questions relating to this.

[Doomsday]

I'm sticking with my move for now and I am more in favour for the night nc3 if I had a choice, seeing as nf3 would leave the central pawn undefended, and if taken, leaving the king flank open. BUT if everyone else was to agree on nc3, then I would willingly change.

I do have a slight plan (which obviously I can't disclose here) which leaves me with a slightly higher piece advantage and better position leading on from bc4, but I am not sure if it will work as well against a full Queen's Gambit.

[Pesco47]

Piece advantage is meaningless if it's anything less than a knight or bishop. How many points is Bc4 going to net us? If your plan involves taking a rook, forget it. We'll have virtually no board position to follow up with.

Stronger board control will limit the good moves black can make. I said earlier that I would not favour trades, the only time this will be accepted, is when we gain board advantage as a result.

[Indigo Heron]

Well, after some thinking, I'm fine with Nc3 or Nf3, although I wish I could say the same for Bc4. Pesco is right; Bc4 gets us nowhere. It also makes Black have an easier time to equalise (refer to my previous post), forcing us to have to try and lynch them.

Nf3 is a well-established, well-analysed move in the Sicilian, it leads to several well-known variations of it. So, I guess it's not surprising you guys may not want it. Nc3 isn't, and may still spring a surprise or two. I still need time to think about it, but for now, I'm still comfortable with my vote on Nf3.

[Pesco47]

@ Mod: Lawrencelot is moving Nc3 btw

[SensFan]

Piece advantage is meaningless if it's anything less than a knight or bishop.

No, that's just wrong. Winning as little as a Pawn in the early game can lead to a game win.

I said earlier that I would not favour trades, the only time this will be accepted, is when we gain board advantage as a result.

I think that's the wrong mentality to take. With more pieces on the board, there are more oppportunities for traps and sneaky play, which directly favours black. If we simplify the board position, the extra heads gain the advantage.

[Gorrad]

Mod: I voted for Pc3, not Nc3.

Although I'm really ok with either, I have a tendency to go for a strong pawn defense at the start of a game.