Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

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NG 651

Scary.

I never knew about that game, but I don't think it changes my vantage point. Xtoxm, what does farside know about your gameplay?

And Raging Rabbit appears to be pretty good scum too, though he tunneled on a single player (MonkeyMan) for a good portion of the time he first replaced in. Bleh.

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--No Read--
fuzzylightning (RandomGem)
eldarad

Green Crayons, can you explain what it was or has been about eldarad's play that had you list him as neutral to begin with and most recently be practically sold on his towniness? Also, with regard to your role, does your role PM really go into that level of detail with regard to boosting or did you deduce all of that on your own?

---

eldarad, why didn't you respond to my question about Green Crayons?:

What do people think about Green Crayons's post 649?

Raging Rabbit, upon closer examination of that "scary" game, Xtoxm pretty much produced walls of words that didn't really amount to much and pretty much joked around much of the time. The content looks scarier when I just glazed through it but when I actually examined it, I noticed that he was still quite lurky and still fairly IIoA. There's a different feel here with Xtoxm in Boost.

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Nope. Just knew I was a vig by deduction. Look at the other people who flipped power too and how they all claimed at one point another. Electra specifically even went so far as to call herself a

Vanilla

who gets a power when boosted when she was actually revealed as a Researcher.

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I don't think you're a safe boost.

I think the best boost Today is me, as it happens, but I don't get to make that call.

I am a vanilla townie.

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lol. You can't boost yourself. Where did TDC mention that he hoped to get boosted?

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Green Crayons, the way you've described your role makes it sound like some sort of tracker when boosted the first time and watcher when boosted a second time. I don't understand why you didn't just say that from the beginning instead of, as you say, claiming the flavor behind your role. To me, it definitely looks like you assigned yourself a role called a "psychic".

Raging Rabbit, I get your case against Xtoxm. I've continued to understand your case against Xtoxm. It's been banged into my head enough.

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Oh and eldarad's last post gave me an interesting idea. What do people think of making our next boost choice the same person we lynch?

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eldarad, I'm asking you in particular about it because you previously had the following to say about sthar8/Xtoxm to something that was largely similar to what Green Crayons had done:

So I re-read the end of Day 1.

sthar's #676 is potentially our smoking gun as he positions himself to vote Huntress in preference to the Jahudo wagon.

But at the same time I agree with everything he says about Huntress.
Unfortunately, he didn't have time to respond to Huntress' claim on Day 1 (yeah, yeah, that's partly my fault for hammering).
I don't find Xtoxm to be scummy, although I am anxious about Incog's certainty on this point

However, in your comments on Green Crayons (at least before he went ahead and claimed "psychic") you had the following to say about him:

GC-TDC

: I have re-read both of these players in isolation recently, and I just don't see anything scummy about either of them.

I'm curious as to why this gearing up to vote Huntress was potentially a "smoking gun" for Xtoxm/sthar8 but not even mentioned by you for Green Crayons if it was something you noticed in your re-read.

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Regardless of Green Crayons's alignment, I don't like eldarad's vote on him. I fail to see how Green Crayons's claim could completely change eldarad's view on him from not seeing anything scummy about him after rereading him to actually switching his vote to him after laying out a case against Raging Rabbit and gunning for his blood since yesterday.

eldarad, I saw the sentence you wrote after the one I bolded in blue but you also just said that exact same thing about Green Crayons as well:

Incog: I have no problem with GC's #649 - I read it when I was re-reading GC -

and largely agree with his comments on Huntress, both in that post and in subsequent posts.

I don't really have anything more to add in answer to your question...

I just don't get why you didn't label his 649 as a possible "smoking gun" much the same way you labeled sthar8's 676 as a "smoking gun" also. I think your read of Green Crayons before he claimed psychic was comparatively softer than your read of sthar8/Xtoxm despite the fact that you were pretty much analyzing comparable pieces of information in order to obtain those reads.

[Incognito]

OK, I really see no sense in delaying this any longer. I'm going to answer my previous questions that I plotted for everyone else to show what I'm thinking and finally place my vote/boost for today.

What do people think about Green Crayons's post 649?

Upon reading the thread, I didn't like this post at all for pretty much the exact same reasons TDC and Raging Rabbit pointed out. The timing was interesting like TDC mentioned -- it came directly after I switched my vote to Jahudo-GF while Guardian and iLord followed suit with their own Jahudo-votes. It really does look like a last ditch attempt to save the power role scum. The content was interesting as well -- I don't think the length of it was necessarily a bad thing since I know that I often find myself producing fairly lengthy cases as town but really the content and feel is what got me. I didn't see much in that post that was based on gut or "feelings", which I think are things town usually need to determine who's scum. It just looked like a post-by-post dissection that relied almost entirely on logic, which isn't necessarily always a bad thing since you

should

use logic to determine who's scum, but I do think it's bad when it's the sole thing you're using to scum hunt and place a vote.

What do people think about eldarad's post 890?

I didn't like this post either but for different reasons than were given by TDC and Raging Rabbit. What stuck out to me about this post was the

way

eldarad addressed the two people he was talking about in this post. "Xtoxm, I don't see why TDC is voting you." The wording just strikes me as odd. He doesn't address TDC directly, i.e. "TDC, I don't understand your vote on Xtoxm.". Instead he addresses Xtoxm almost like eldarad himself is viewing the whole thing as a third person and is attempting to plot two people against one another. I would expect a town eldarad to confront TDC directly rather than the way he did here. This plotting of people against one another seems like a recurring theme in eldarad's play this game -- during Day 1 he even went so far as to label me/iLord/Guardian as a scum team despite the fact that we had been at each other's necks the whole day with very serious votes on one another. Looking back on it now, it seems to me like eldarad was trying to keep up the paranoia that three townies had with one another which could have been helpful for an eldarad-scum in future days.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Another thing I keep revisiting is Jahudo's play this game. I keep questioning myself about whether or not I thought Jahudo's play in this game was good, and I keep arriving at the same conclusion: I don't think Jahudo played a bad game as scum, and I think his only flaw was the spectator-y type of feel that I kept receiving from him. Therefore I really strongly think that both TDC's and Raging Rabbit's swing votes on him were probably coming from town rather than at least one bussing scum buddy. Outside of those votes I haven't seen much from either of the two that would suggest otherwise anyway -- Raging Rabbit strikes me as very tunnel-visioned at times but town nevertheless and TDC has been giving me town vibes from the very beginning of the game too. He's said a lot of things which are just really hard to fake as scum. And anyway, either one of them (if scum) could have easily concocted a case against any of the townies who had wagons on them at the time (me, Guardian, Huntress, iLord) and garnered support for a mislynch. The fact that they didn't and instead helped lynch the power role scum gives me a good feeling.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Xtoxm is town.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

So that leaves Green Crayons and eldarad, which I think is the scum team we're dealing with here. eldarad's recent vote only makes me feel even better about this -- his vote strongly looks like a bussing vote to me since it's based on such weak reasoning when he previously supposedly couldn't see GC as anything but town. Also his whole "at least one of the scums must be boosting Incog" theory seems really ridiculous to even bring up; obviously, eldarad, if you're town you should be thinking that. Like TDC pointed out, the only two people who didn't boost me were a) you and b) me (obviously I can't boost myself). Your need to bring this up just looks like a last minute weak attempt to push the idea that you're town.

And no, I don't support boosting one of the vanillas today -- why take the risk when one of the vanillas could easily be scum who could gain some kind of power when boosted? We're in a LyLo situation where we really don't have a large margin of error to be fooling around with boosts on the vanilla claimants. Your suggestion to do so, eldarad, is extremely scummy.

So yeah, I'm fine with either a Green Crayons or eldarad lynch today and since GC already has a wagon on him, I'll go with this:

Unboost
Boost: Green Crayons

Vote: Green Crayons

(That's L-1.)

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I'm not big on reading meta, not because it isn't useful, but because it requires me reading through a bunch of games when I have neither the time nor inclination to utilize what free time I do have to engage in such a mind numbing process. So, for you metaheads out there:

Xtox's town meta basically boils down to being crappy and his scum meta boils down to him being not as crappy?

I'm going to assume that this is the case, Incog?

It depends on how you define "crappy". I don't think Xtoxm is a crappy town player at all; I think he's definitely off-kilter, he often doesn't think about how his own posts could be perceived by the rest of the town, but other than that, I think he's actually quite good as town. I've seen so many cases where he gets mislynched for weird not scummy behavior but in his last post, he has the entire scum team called out. Xtoxm-scum is lurky and un-analytical scum. So it would be his

scum play

that would be more accurately described as crappy.

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GC, did you ever finish your TDC analysis?

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You're only at L-1 in a situation where a second person hasn't even been boosted yet and where we're probably at LyLo and your reasoning for not pushing a TDC-case is because your lynch is inevitable? Why do you think eldarad is town?

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and where we're probably at LyLo

Not with your ability.

Right. But you're arguing that your lynch will undoubtedly be a mislynch and you're also arguing that my second suspect is also a step in the wrong direction but you're doing nothing to convince me or anyone else as to why this is the case. You've pretty much packed it in and keep claiming that TDC is one of the remaining scum but haven't taken steps to demonstrate why this is the case.

It's because I'm too lazy to do work when it'll be

your

responsibility to kill the right person tonight.

This is so epic fail. Am I the only townie in this game? If you think I'm being misguided with my suspicions and you're actually

of the town

you should feel like it's your obligation to try and correct my thinking to lead me on the right track starting with today. We shouldn't even be

thinking

about the night at this time.

TDC has been an active lurker until today

How do you define active lurking? I've seen no indication of this.

his apathetic attitude towards being boosted makes it look like he was trying to not draw attention towards himself (if he's pure vanilla it would be optimal play/beneficial for the town for him to dissuade his boost) which is scummish

When did this happen? If you're talking about the Boost-wagon that formed on him during Day 1, I can't think of any reason for TDC to believe that a boost on him

wouldn't

be productive since we hadn't learned the information that Electra provided to us about how some people will not receive effects from a boost until she presented that information to us on Day 2.

and he's never undergone any serious scrutiny which makes whatever town vibes people get from him over embellished. I could look up examples, but that's time consuming. It's your job to fix this mis-lynch, so you can review TDC's posts with these criticisms in mind. I've resigned myself to the whims of no reasoning, bad reasoning and really bad reasoning. When you see the error of your mistake, I'm just hoping you'll vig TDC or RR since apparently Xtox is hands-off.

Terrible.

What's so bad about my reasoning in particular? I do hope you realize that my reasoning for placing my vote on you has absolutely nothing to do with your claim. I'm voting for you mainly because of your actions around the Jahudo-scum wagon. Interestingly enough, your reasoning for voting Huntress yesterday included very similar reasoning to mine today, which should mean that you do find such actions around a scum-wagon to be rather telling in their own regard. Why have you now classified my reasoning as bad? Did you classify your reasoning for voting Huntress yesterday as bad as well?


I also noticed that you seemed to have read through Minvitational 9 at some point. I feel like that game looks eerily similar to this game in the sense that like this game a Godfather was lynched on Day 1. If you look at the wagon that formed on that Godfather, you'd notice that the first 6 votes that were placed on him were town and the hammering vote was the scum vote. Is there any reason why that game hasn't in any way, shape, or form shaped your thinking about this particular game and the actions around the GF we had here?

P.S. You're now at L-2. I suppose you can start doing stuff.

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I used a smaller sized text to make this less long lol. I should have thought of this earlier when I was dueling it out with springlullaby ahha.

And it makes me think that you are hedging your bets in case you see dawn Tomorrow, and then have to justify your actions.

1) I'm pretty sure you're town, although I am not 100% sold on this point.

You're pretty sure I'm town but yet you still place these two points side by side with one another? What do you mean by "hedging your bets" then?

2) I'm pretty sure you're positioning yourself to vig me, as I mentioned above. Regardless of your alignment, that is a bad thing. Hence the unvote.

Regardless of my alignment this a bad thing? If you're actually town and I'm scum, wouldn't it be a

good

thing for me to vig you? Why throw in the "regardless of your alignment" clause?

2a) Eldarad lynches take weeks. I see no reason to give you a free pass to avoid all that hassle just because you're a vig...

Interesting. When you were town in Satin Doll Showdown, I remember you being extremely self-sacrificing. Heck, it won us the game. Why the change here?

3) Boosting a vanilla - and having no effect - will be useful as it very persuasive evidence that your vig kills are the result of your boost, rather than a permanent ability...like what a scum might have. As TDC said, it

proves

nothing but it will make me feel better. And for all we know, vanillas might have the most powerful boost abilities... (yeah, I know, they probably don't...)

We aren't in lylo since you are a town-aligned vig. Right? So we have a reasonable margin of error. Nobody is being complacent here.

Right but what's to stop me from believing that if we lynch incorrectly today, the real scums either have some kind of roleblocker that might be able to stop me from shooting tonight or that they might be able to acquire some kind of roleblocking or un-nightkill ability when boosted? I find it odd how you seem to not even consider this.

Skillit's wagon grew very quickly. My assessment was that, even if Skillit is scum it was very, very likely that at least one scum was on his wagon. Either:
1) Skillit was town and scum were on his wagon trying to push a townie mislynch, or
2) Skillit was scum and one of his scumbuddies had jumped on as bussing/distancing/going with the flow.

You asked me whether I still believe this to be true. I do.
Do you believe it to be true? Did you always believe it to be true, or has your opinion on this point changed throughout the game?

Early on I remember thinking that the wagon could have been somewhat telling, and I remember asking people to justify their own votes since I felt like the wagon moved from a simple random wagon to a more serious wagon but since that point, I've changed my stance on this. I don't think it's as telling as I initially thought it to be because of the boost mechanic that we have in this game. If Skillit/GC is scum, then any potential scum buddies who may have jumped on his wagon would have realized that he couldn't seriously be lynched until two separate boosts were reached. Therefore it probably wouldn't cause much harm to ride the wagon for a bit and slowly slide off of it when the Skillit-hate died down. If Skillit/GC is town, then the scum would have realized that the town would still have to boost two separate people so the chances could have been quite high at that point for the wagon to eventually dissipate and not lead to a mislynch like they thought it would.

Fair enough to the Xtoxm post that I had an issue with.

What do you think about Raging Rabbit reaching an opinion on Electra's alignment without considering whether her claim was genuine? Does that have the ring of truth?

I personally can see where Raging Rabbit is coming from. I, too, didn't really consider whether or not her claim was genuine when trying to determine what her alignment was. If you remember from very early on, I mentioned that I was choosing to reserve my judgment about Electra until I saw more content coming from her. I agreed with the "leap of faith" point that you made early on with respect to her but a large part of the reason why I eventually found her to be town was because of her additional contributions to the game and not because I thought her claim seemed genuine.

Also keep in mind that Electra claimed to be a Vanilla who gained something when boosted. Since I was/am a power role, I had absolutely no clue whether Vanillas could have such a thing. So yeah, my read of her was based largely on her actions rather than determining the genuineness of her claim since I didn't have enough role-based information to do so. I could imagine Raging Rabbit feeling somewhat similarly

especially

if he's actually a vanilla like he claims to be. It's pretty apparent now that Electra

thought

she was a Vanilla but was sorely mistaken. I could certainly see a Raging Rabbit-Vanilla Town thinking "well, my role PM mentions nothing about something happening to me when boosted, so why does hers? I'll judge the rest of her actions to determine whether or not I believe her".

As a quick example, think about the level of suspicion you had towards Guardian and iLord before and after I drew the link of the three of you in a scumteam. Were you more or less suspicious of them after I made the suggestion? Or did it have no impact whatsoever?

More suspicious. I became convinced that maybe you were scum with one of them (namely springlullaby/Guardian since you refused to vote for her even though you kept saying that her anger looked fake and chose to vote Crazy instead) and that you were trying to link us so that you could push for a future mislynch on me if he flipped town. So yeah.

In what way is "I don't believe his claim" weak reasoning?
You earlier said that we were in lylo. If you believe that, do you think it is likely that eldaradscum would be bussing at this point? How do you explain eldaradscum's switch from gunning for RR - who you believe is town - to GC - who you believe is my scumbuddy?

"Shit. The town's not buying GC's fake-claim. Time to bus him!"

I'm actually curious as to why your vote on him is so dependent on his claim. If he's scum, did you not consider the fact that maybe he and his scum buddy spent last night discussing possible fakeclaims in a potential LyLo situation? Do you think GC just messed up that fake-claim really badly here today? See, I'm actually thinking that if you're scum with GC, you guys didn't really discuss much about fake-claims last night so that when he claimed to be a "psychic", you almost knee-jerkedly responded with a vote.

Can I only be scum with GC? What are the consequences if GC flips town - am I still more likely than not to be scum?

You can be scum independently of him, sure.

Can you elaborate more on your town read of Raging Rabbit please.
You say that he is tunnel-visioned at times but he still gives you a town read. Would you say RR has been scumhunting? Has his scumhunting been confined to relatively few players in detail, or has he touched on all players as being potential scum during the course of the game?

I covered this a bit previously but a large part of my read of him is derived from his swing vote on a Jahudo-scum GF wagon, and his approach to the game at the start of Day 2 after seeing two dead bodies after Night 1 ended.

Yes, I think he's been scum-hunting. Yes, I think he's touched on all players being potential scum during the course of the game except for maybe TDC, and... I can't really remember his thoughts about Skillit. Admittedly, I'll need to reread those.

What do you think about my reaction to Huntress' claim (post 699)? Do you agree with my stated opinion there? If not, do you think my opinion - further elaborated in post 712 following a question from you - is sincerely held?

I remember not liking it very much since I couldn't see what you were getting at and thinking that you were using that as an excuse to lay down the hammer of your potential scum buddy's wagon. Your response in 712 was pretty solid, sure.

No response to GC at this time. Too tired/out of time.

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Bump?

[Incognito]

I haven't been prodded yet, but I'm posting to let you all know I haven't forgotten about you. It's been a busy few days for me, but I'll have a (real) post in tomorrow.

[Incognito]

Okay so here's Part 1 of my owed post. I'm gonna try to just type this up quoting as little as possible. This thread has enough quote blocks as it is.

Responding to Green Crayons:

Okay, so you've indicated why your suspicions boil down to Xtoxm, Raging Rabbit, and TDC and you've further broken those three down into the pairings that you see as the most likely (RR/TDC and TDC/Xtoxm). To arrive at these two pairings, you've used evidence based off of interactions that you noticed particularly between Raging Rabbit and sthar8/Xtoxm (Raging Rabbit has consistently pushed for the lynch of this role since around Day 1). What about the D1 wagon on scum though and the interactions shown there between your remaining candidates for scum and the only known scum we have in this game so far? Have you factored that into your decision at all? Do you see evidence that would suggest that RR/TDC likely bussed Jahudo?

Re TDC: Okay, so again you've basically re-stated that you think TDC has been actively lurking and you've pointed to a specific time period where you think this active lurking was especially prevalent. I've read through TDC, and I never got an active lurking feel though, so I think if you're really going to want to try and convince me and everyone else that TDC is guilty of what you're calling him out for, you might want to pick out a few posts that better illustrate this.

Re your TDC-boost-Vanilla comments: I still can't see any reason why TDC would or should have known that a Boost would have no effect on him even if he has the same Vanilla Role PM that was provided to us by the mod. Here is the opening passage from the mod's first cutscene:

Each day, through a combination of strange herbs, placebo effect, and possibly some other force, you can choose to make two of your number stronger and more intelligent. The precise effects are untested and mostly unknown, and great care should be taken not to aid your enemies, but properly used, this could provide your village with the edge it needs to ensure peace again.

To me, it looks like the mod was trying to be as non-descript as possible so that we wouldn't be able to figure out which players or roles in particular had the ability to get boosted. If I had been a Vanilla, I probably would have assumed that if I was boosted I might gain something from the boost too. Here was a comment coming from the game's only known vanilla on the first page:

Additionally, didn't Patrick give us the vanilla town PM? It said nothing about powers after boosted. It'd be kind of odd for vanillas to be different from the mod example.

The above seems to imply that iLord thought that if he got boosted, maybe he would still gain a power since the only thing he seemed to find weird about Electra's claim was the fact that she had a

specified

ability when boosted even though she was claiming Vanilla. He confirmed my thoughts here too:

I get what you're saying about your role, but it just seems weird and inelegant to include vanillas that don't know their boost power, and vanillas that do.

Again, iLord's feeling seems to be that even though he's Vanilla, he thought he might gain a power if he's boosted. And finally we have this:

My proposed strategy is for us to just play normally, and then choose two people to boost after we find our lynch, based on how they played during the day.

This is iLord's proposed strategy for playing the game. Based on the above, I highly doubt iLord would have jumped out and said "no guys don't boost me. I don't think it's gonna work" if he had developed a Boost-wagon on him.

Also, Green Crayons, did you even follow the link to your Post 649? Your Post 649 wasn't your replacement post. It was the post where you laid out the massive case against Huntress in the face of a mounting Jahudo-wagon. In between your

real

replacement post and your 649, you spent part of that time debating a bit with Raging Rabbit who was at the time your top suspect. Then you withdrew your suspicion of him and made 649 to illustrate your case on Huntress.

I'll respond to eldarad soon...

[Incognito]

In response to eldarad, like I mentioned, I don't put much stock into the early Skillit-wagon. If GC is town, do I think the scum avoided the wagon? Clearly not. The only person who avoided the wagon of the remaining living people is Raging Rabbit and unless we're dealing with a scum team of two, then even in the event of an RR-scum that would mean a one on, one off type of thing happened early on with that wagon.

OK, so...would you say that your reasoning - that I made the iLord-Guardian-Incog link in order to make the three of you suspicious of each other - holds water given that it made you more suspicious of me?

If you're scum, you'd have no way of knowing I was a power role let alone a vig so you'd have had no clue on Day 1 whether or not Guardian would have survived the night and would have been available for me to continue attacking during Day 2.

How does that theory fit in with the fact that the scum killed iLord that Night?

Given the fact that iLord played

the

major role in Jahudo's lynch, a you-scum would figure that it would be highly unlikely that I'd go after him the next day since he'd be practically confirmed town in my eyes.

I guess the far more relevant question is: "Do YOU believe GC's claim?"

Well, I'm voting him and still pushing for his lynch, so I guess that would mean I don't believe his claim. The point is his claim isn't the only reason I'm voting him and disbelieving him. There were things I noticed in GC's play outside of claim stuff that I found scummy. Your suspicions of GC seem completely related to his claim which seems odd to me.

And finally about my town read of RR, yeah, I still think he's probably town.

vote Xtoxm

Not boosting GC because Xtoxm has an additional vote and is therefore able to hammer GC once we reach a boost majority.

Really, really dislike this vote for obvious reasons. I wish I was a dayvig right about now. Who do you think is Xtoxm's most likely buddy?

@Green Crayons:

Part of your TDC-suspicion was based on the fact that TDC didn't attempt to push the early TDC-boostwagon off of himself despite the fact that he's now claimed Vanilla. What do you make of eldarad's recent suggestions of pushing for the boosting of a Vanilla? Do you think this makes him look scummy?

[Incognito]

Xtoxm, if you'd like a GC-lynch, you need to also boost him. I don't think you're boosting anyone atm.

[Incognito]

Am I just hallucinating or is the whole of 1339 really scummy?

[Incognito]

It just seems like you're trying to coax Raging Rabbit into maintaining his vote on Xtoxm. Nowhere in that post do you even seem to consider who a hypo-Xtoxm-scum's buddy might be; instead you set

yourself

up as Xtoxm's buddy saying that RR's town read of GC is important and that he should keep his vote on Xtoxm because even if RR thinks the team is you/Xtoxm, he's better off lynching Xtoxm since I would never vote or vig Xtoxm even in LyLo? Wouldn't you know whether or not you're scum with Xtoxm? Why would a you-town agree to go along with such a strategy when it could potentially cost us the game? Just who exactly do you think is Xtoxm's buddy then?

As for the other posts following that, what's wrong with them exactly?

[Incognito]

GC, just in case you missed this question also:

@Green Crayons:

Part of your TDC-suspicion was based on the fact that TDC didn't attempt to push the early TDC-boostwagon off of himself despite the fact that he's now claimed Vanilla. What do you make of eldarad's recent suggestions of pushing for the boosting of a Vanilla? Do you think this makes him look scummy?

[Incognito]

Huh?

Okay, so you've basically stated the following:

• Boosting scum early -> Plenty of time to make up for mistake = Bad but not that bad for town.
  
• Boosting scum now in LyLo -> Could end up losing us the game = Terrible thing for town.

This is precisely my point though. eldarad has stated not once but a couple of times now that he'd like for us to boost a claimed vanilla at

this stage of the game

(LyLo). You had beef with TDC because he never tried to push away an

early

Boost-wagon on himself, a claimed Vanilla, because you feel that a Vanilla should never feel like he should receive something when boosted. According to your own statement which I've now summarized in bullet points, this would mean that yeah, you could theoretically find TDC scummy for not pushing away an early boostwagon on himself but you

should

find eldarad

scummier

for suggesting that a Vanilla should be boosted in a Lylo situation because of bullet point 2. Why is that not the case?

[Incognito]

I know. I was talking about how

you

claimed Vanilla and have spent portions of today calling for the Boost of one of the claimed Vanillas for one reason or another. I'd have expected Green Crayons to give you some flak for this because he gave flak to TDC for something similar according to what he mentioned here:

If

TDC is a townie then he would have received a PM similar to this:

You are an inhabitant of the town.

You win when all anti-town roles are eliminated.

TDC hasn't indicated that his PM contained any hints as to a boost ability. He would have had no reason to believe that he would have given a boost ability if he was actually a vanilla. In fact, since he claimed vanilla, he should have assumed that he was

vanilla

. Nothing special happens to vanillas. Ever. To assume that maybe his vanilla role would somehow become non-existent with a boost is to assume he wasn't vanilla. Why would he have assumed his role could easily become the antithesis of his role? It doesn't make sense, even with Electra's information not known. The logical assumption with a vanilla role is to assume you're a vanilla role.

But Green Crayons has done nothing of the sort and has spent a good portion of today vouching for your towniness.

Raging Rabbit, what is it about Green Crayons's recent posts that make you think he's town?

[Incognito]

And

(just to expand on that further) since Green Crayons has effectively said that he believes boosts are more dangerous at this point of the game since this is LyLo, I'd have expected him to be even

more

fuming about your recent suggestions of boosting a Vanilla than he ever would or could have been about TDC's lack of pushing away the early Boost-wagon on himself. Again, GC has done no such thing.

Apparently I'm the only one who sees this contradiction.

[Incognito]

Green Crayons, I'm reading your posts. "Boosting a vanilla now is not suspicious because we can't afford to boost a non-townie in potential end-game." We've got three people who've claimed Vanilla though and even if we looked at this from a hypo-you-town perspective and we assume a three scum set-up, this would mean that at least one of the three vanilla claimants (eldarad, RR, and TDC) is scum. I can do bold too:

According to you, you found it suspicious that TDC would expect something upon being boosted because Vanillas shouldn't expect to receive anything from a boost -- they're vanilla. If we're going by the information that Electra gave us in that it's LIKELY that the Vanillas won't gain anything upon being boosted (these are your own WORDS after all), why would it NOT be suspicious for eldarad to suggest that we should STILL boost one of the Vanillas now when one of those Vanillas could be scum and could possibly gain something upon being boosted?

-~- Vanillas: Likely don't receive anything upon being boosted.
-~- At least 1 of the 3 Vanilla claimants (from a hypo-town-you perspective) is likely scum.

If Vanillas don't gain anything from being boosted and if 1 of the 3 Vanilla claimants is likely scum, then it makes logical sense for us to NOT boost one of the Vanillas -- if the person we choose to boost is town, HE WON'T GAIN ANYTHING ANYWAY. If the person we choose to boost is scum, he MIGHT gain something and that's not worth the risk. Suggesting that we should boost one of these people who won't gain anything upon being boosted as town anyway but could POSSIBLY gain something as scum upon being boosted is scummy! How do you NOT see this?

---

eldarad, why are you asking me if I would hammer Xtoxm at deadline when it's

Green Crayons

who is currently at L-1? Would

you

hammer him if we got close to deadline? I think you missed a few questions from TDC also.

To respond to your question though, yes, I'd obviously hammer Xtoxm to prevent a No Lynch. Xtoxm is town though so lynching him is just plain old stupid.

Also, the comparison you've made now about me having fear of a Roleblocker today and not showing that same level of fear yesterday is like comparing apples to oranges. If I was roleblocked yesterday, we wouldn't be in potential LyLo today -- we'd have 7 players alive right now with 2 of them likely being scum. If we mislynch today, the town is pretty much depending on me to vig correctly tonight to still have a fighting chance. Are you seriously trying to paint this fear I have today as scummy?

GC and eldarad are almost certainly our remaining scum.

[Incognito]

Oh true. I forgot about your second vote. Well we need someone to boost-hammer Green Crayons anyway if he's going to be today's lynch.

Raging Rabbit, are you back yet? What do you think about the current situation?

[Incognito]

GC: I read through all of that and okay. I'm not going to tap into it further because it's becoming heavily diluted. I'm almost to the point where I don't even know what it is I'm arguing anymore.

TDC, why do you want to know that?

Also, Raging Rabbit, if you're that sold on GC being town and you think one of eldarad and Xtoxm is scum, would you support an eldarad lynch today?

[Incognito]

Odd. I could have sworn that TDC was more involved in the Jahudo lynch than he actually seemed to be. TDC, a quick filter of your posts for the keyword "Jah" reveals not much mentioning of him during Day 1. You eventually mentioned the following:

That said, I think that your unwillingness to join what seems to be the only competing wagon to yours is a mild pro-town sign and I'd prefer a Jahudo lynch over a you-lynch, anyway.

unvote; vote: Jahudo

What in particular made you prefer a Jahudo lynch over a Huntress lynch?

Prior to this, the following post was just about the first time you ever mentioned Jahudo all day:

Okay, so only a few days to deadline, and we neet to get a full, 7 vote, lynch done.
Biggest wagon is eldarad with three, but I've already said I don't want to lynch him.
Of the two two vote wagons I prefer Huntress.

unvote vote Huntress

I would consider switching to back Green Crayons or changing to iLord, Jahudo or Guardian (in about that order) if they become viable lynches.

...where you listed him as your number 3 suspect.

[Incognito]

TDC, I don't think I'll really, truly know who I'm going to vig until tonight comes, and I have one additional alignment (from today's lynch) to look at. The only people who I feel really comfortable with as town right now are Xtoxm and to a slightly lesser extent, Raging Rabbit. eldarad has felt scummy to me all day, Green Crayons was/does also but even his lynch is giving me cold feet, and I did feel comfortable with you until I had a good, hard look at your isolation just now.

I wasn't too fond of a Huntress lynch to begin with (hence her not making the "short list").

So why did you vote for her instead of pushing one of the people who

did

make your "short list"? At the time, she was a wagon and so was eldarad. I understand that at the time, you made your thoughts clear that you wouldn't support an eldarad lynch but both wagons had very little votes anyway and, as you could see, it wasn't very difficult to get a brand new wagon off the ground.

I figure that had I had an overwhelmingly good reason for lynching Jahudo, I would've posted it back then. He just felt spectatory ("Hey A, what do you think about B's argument that C has done X").

Why didn't you mention this at the time? This was the case iLord and I pushed, and I've looked through your posts and couldn't find any point where you actually agreed with the case. He just seemed to "magically" appear on your "short list".

As for my point about you listing him as your number 3, it just seemed to happen out of nowhere. Again, I just don't see any point where you say something like "yeah, I agree with Incog and iLord about Jahudo". He just seemed to appear on your suspect list.

[Incognito]

For what it's worth,

vote: Xtox

. I would really prefer TDC, but since nobody pays my suspicions any heed, might as well go with someone else I find suspicious.

Dunno if you noticed, but I was actually questioning TDC on this very page about something I found suspicious about him...

TDC, it's not a question of "if" -- it's more like

when

Xtoxm flips town. I don't think there's any merit or value in me answering the question of who I will be vigging tonight.

[Incognito]

That said, if Xtox flips town, the game is in your hands.

This makes me feel just peachy.

[Incognito]

Xtoxm had mislynch written all over him from the start of today. You may disagree with what he said here due to phrasing or what-have-you:

Incog, i'm quite certain GC is scum. There have been 2 townies (me and you) pushing him for ages, and yet, people still contradict their confirmed townie. That doesn't happen on townie wagons.

but I think what he says holds some merit. Pretty much from the start of today, everyone except me (who everyone AGREES is town except for maybe eldarad, but he's probably scum anyway) seemed keen on an Xtoxm lynch (I'll check these facts, but I'm pretty sure they're right). If Xtoxm is scum, this would mean that you believe that his buddy is willing to bus him right at this very moment despite the fact that he (Xtoxm) has the support of the near-confirmed townie.

[Incognito]

True, he did start off supporting him, but I can't even pinpoint the exact post where his change either began to happen or actually happened.

[Incognito]

1. [...]The fact that Incog

Curious chop off of a sentence. Was there more to this?

I'd like to second the question TDC raised: RR can only be scum if Xtoxm is his buddy? Why?

eldarad, even if you didn't like my apples to oranges comparison as to why I wasn't concerned about a Mafia RB yesterday, you seem to be completely overlooking the fact that yesterday, we were boosting vollkan (Electra), who was obvtown, and me. We were also lynching icemanE who I thought was scum, which, if we assume a total scum team of three (3) and if icemanE was actually scum, would reduce the total scum pool down to one (1) person with vollkan (Electra) not seeming likely to be the third one. Why exactly should I have been concerned about a Mafia RB at that time?

Assuming that same three-person scum team, the pool of people who could be scum from my perspective today lies with 5 people (GC, RR, you, TDC, and Xtoxm), with 2 of them likely being scum. This means that if we mislynched today and boosted 1 of the 4 people who

wasn't

today's lynch, there would be a

50% chance

we boosted scum with an unknown ability (my fear is a roleblocking ability but it could also be some sort of an NK immunity). And the town collective boosted

me

today because of the mislynch fear we have now -- we'd like another shot tonight just in case we err today.

I don't even think you

believe

what you're saying right now.

Do you agree with the following two statements:
If Xtoxm is scum and both he and you survive to lylo, the town will lose.
So if the townies alive Today believe that you're hopelessly, irredeemably wrong and that Xtoxm is scum then the only way town can win is by lynching Xtoxm Today.

Only because Xtoxm has a double-voting ability, yes. Otherwise this is a false dilemma. I wouldn't just go into tomorrow saying "lulz, Xtoxm is STILL town, vote: other person". Considering the fact that you and me have been in an endgame together, you should know the amount of time and consideration I put into those scenarios.

[Incognito]

unboost

[Incognito]

eldarad and GC, if you're both going to keep your votes on Xtoxm, you should boost him now. We're cutting dangerously close to deadline.

[Incognito]

GC -> B-1 -> eldarad boost-hammer -> GC boosted -> unable to get a GC lynch -> Xtoxm lynched (maybe flips town) -> poss problems tonight if GC is scum and acquires an ability=

[Incognito]

Boost: Xtoxm

...no vote switch though.

[Incognito]

Actually that's true, and I keep forgetting Xtoxm's double vote.

Here's what we do then.

Unboost
Boost: Green Crayons

eldarad can choose to boost-hammer you if he'd like. The whole lynch decision is up to TDC though. He can either choose to keep his vote on you thereby allowing Xtoxm to use his second vote on you to hammer you, or he can choose to hammer Xtoxm. Be mindful that this usage of the second vote now also eliminates that Xtoxm having a second vote in a potential LyLo tomorrow fear too.

[Incognito]

I've already said how I'm not going to hammer Xtoxm if GC gets boosted.

I realize this now. I've pretty much been fear-mongering about a no lynch for nothing.

So, eldarad, feel free to boost-hammer GC.

[Incognito]

You rock.

(Yes, this is my delayed "Bah" post.)

[Incognito]

Incog: Why were you convinced I was scum?

Haha there were a bunch of reasons actually.

Your predecessors

- Skillit looked pretty bad early on, and I probably would have put a vote on him early on, but I got distracted by the springlullaby argument.
- Mana_Ku's summary was really weird too.

You specifically

- Your post against Huntress just seemed a bit over the top in the face of a mounting Jahudo-wagon. It just looked like you were trying your hardest to save the Godfather.
- When you said your role was a Psychic and then claimed that Skillit had asked Patrick for clarification as to what would happen if he got boosted twice, I pretty much knew you had to be lying. Patrick would have never clarified to me what would happen when I got boosted once or twice so it wouldn't make sense for him to start doing double standards as a mod [by clarifying for Skillit but not clarifying for me].
- Then there were your double standards also. I still hold to the belief that if you were town, you technically should have found eldarad scummier than TDC for suggesting that we boost a Vanilla closer to end-game if you truly felt like TDC was scummy for not deflecting away an early wagon on him, a claimed Vanilla. I just thought your insistence that eldarad was town town town seemed weird because of that.
- Oh and there was this more minor thing too:

I used that fake softclaim about a post restriction as an excuse for not posting. That doesn't make me scum.

How am I supposed to not vote you after you yourself admitted to lying to the town about your lurking?

It didn't look like you really thought he was scum -- it just kinda looked like you knew he was town, and you were lynching him over policy reasons.

I really thought I did a decent job of trying to convince people that Xtoxm was town and that you were mafia scum, so I was really disappointed when he got lynched and you remained alive.


-- Incidentally, one thing I never revealed to the town was that after my first boost, I became a

full

vig instead of just gaining an additional shot. I kept that to myself because I didn't want the scum in on that information. During my second boost, I actually gained NK immunity if I chose not to shoot during the night. SO if we had lynched GC during Day 3 and left Xtoxm alone, I could have no killed during Night 3, hopefully been the NK target and used my NK immunity, and then try and convince the town that I wasn't an SK and that we should lynch one of {eldarad, TDC} and vig the other during the next night for a guaranteed win. I was pretty certain that both Xtoxm and RR were town, so I thought the plan would have been solid if people didn't think I was an SK

(I think people would have just lynched me though lol).

Anyway, good game all. Well done, eldarad and RR at end-game!

[Incognito]

About this:

I didn't play badly. Ice didn't play badly either. The forgetting he joined was an obvious slip up, though, which he could have done without.

I did not contradict my predecessor at all, it was you who played badly there.

I agree that you didn't play badly at all, but I still hold to the belief that icemanE's play was pretty bad, and he completely deserved to be lynched. I still can't believe he actually

forgot

his role and didn't submit a night action during Night 1 when he just replaced in like that same day. If I were put in that situation again, I'd probably lynch him again and again and again lol.

I was soooo glad when you replaced in though. I was getting a scummy read off of sthar8 but then when you replaced in, I knew I'd be able to read you fairly quickly and it was really nice to know you were town.

Thanks Patrick and Elmo for modding. 'twas a fun game. =)

[Incognito]

TDC: I thought Jahudo's role was pretty scary actually. Imagine the town-cred he could have gotten especially if he got boosted twice and started handing out boosts to townies. He'd have been practically unlynchable.

[Incognito]

Hmmm.. well if people trusted him enough to boost him twice, I don't think a counterclaim would have made too much of a difference. It would take some 'splainin but... yeah.

[Incognito]

I'll dig out the second boost PM when I get time.

I have this nagging feeling that killing vollkan over Incognito wasn't quite the right decision.

What made you decide to do this?

[Incognito]

We thought you were going to continue vigging innocents. And vollkan was just plainly unlynchable, whereas you could at least potentially be seen as the SK.

Yeah, probably the only kill I'd like to have back is the Huntress one. I felt pretty stupid once she flipped town and after I reasoned myself into thinking she was town at the beginning of D2. I just began thinking that she might have been lurking scum because she kept promising content but didn't seem to get around to it. I laughed pretty hard when Guardian flipped Doctor... I could picture a real-life Doctor and a dude with a gun arguing with one another all day. BLAH. (Sorry, Guardian.)

I thought the scum played pretty well, btw. GC managed to convince people he was town on D3 by feigning frustration pretty well and his entrance to the game seemed fairly town as well, TDC did a nice job of keeping himself below radar, and even though Jahudo was D1 lynched, I thought he did a pretty good job too.

Vote: eldarad

Sup?

My last two opening votes in games have landed on scum. Do you feel lucky?

Rawr.

You really had me worried there during D3. Remember that "eldarad feels natural" from Satin Doll? Well...

[Incognito]

/pats Ether gently.

Kids these days and their imaginations.

[Incognito]

I didn't want to push for an Incog kill the night before last because him killing another innocent person = good for us. I didn't really think he would become Xtox's secret lover and absolutely refuse to lynch the guy.

Xtoxm and I sexorcised! haha.

Oh the other reason why I thought you were scum was pretty much because Xtoxm said so. The guy has a pretty good scumdar, so I figured if we BOTH thought you were scum then it had to be true, right? lol. Also, I still think his reasoning was pretty solid (how his wagon took off during Day 3 even though I, the practically confirmed townie opposed it, but yours just dissipated). The funny thing about that is I expected your wagon to dissipate because your scum buddy was trying to fuel the Xtoxm-wagon somehow (which was one of the other reasons I was so suspicious of eldarad). Interestingly, your real scum buddy, TDC, kept up with the bus attempt and only switched over at deadline so the Xtoxm wagon was primarily fueled by one scum and two townies.

I don't recall the specifics of this argument, other than the fact that it existed and I actually really believed everything I was saying could be true. I don't think I had a real opinion on the matter, so I was just taking up whatever belief I thought would help me at the time. Ah well.

How could you not recall the argument? D: That argument was epic. haha.

[Incognito]

Post 1377 is still insane everytime I look at it.