Mini #704: Hunchback of Notre Dame, Game Over


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Post Post #875 (ISO) » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:02 pm

Post by ortolan »

I claimed RB before that, because I thought it fitted into my role-claim/made it more convincing.

The reason I claimed a block on Mizzy was that I put through the kill on Axelrod and it didn't go through, so I got paranoid that I myself had been role-blocked that night and someone knew I was likely scum. I claimed to have RB'ed Mizzy because it was consistent with what I'd do after attacking her on Day 2, and if there was another explanation e.g. doctor protect for the no night-kill it was compatible with that too.

So basically it made it likely that even if I had been caught I'd have a good chance of getting at least one more town lynch in before being lynched. destructor had discussed that insane cop role-claim the day before but I was surprised he ended up following through with it after there'd already been a no-kill the previous night and I'd put myself in the firing line by claiming to have RB'ed Mizzy. It worked though- we got two more town lynches before he was lynched.

It's funny, actually, I read MM's comment at that point along the lines of "destructor has played a masterful game up until this point, but it ends here" as looking
extremely
traitory.

Anyway, we didn't realise how hard a time we were going to have all game after I effectively hammered Natirasha.

pj, did you put in La Esmeralda's goat specifically to interact with the scum fake-claim? i.e. was it put in for the purpose of me doing what I did with it essentially? It's the only non vanilla townie without a role. I realise CR/korejora probably would have been extremely unlikely to vote for me from day 2 onwards with that role pm and my fake-claim.
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Post Post #876 (ISO) » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:49 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Your safe-claim was given to you randomly from a list of characters that I ended up not including to be roles in the game. The same went for writing up a role PM for the random townie I decided to give a name from the book. So no, no interactions like that were intended at all.

This was basically an open set-up with a strange enough mechanic (the limited reveal) that I did not feel comfortable including it in the Little Italy forum. I only used the Hunchback of Notre Dame flavor because I have been considering running a
Notre Dame
Mafia (based off the board game), so that this could be a prelude to that.

As a side note, I did not understand the Miller discussion
at all
seeing as every role humanly possible for this game was given to every player up-front.

I will try to get up some official mod commentary when my internet connection is more reliable and I have time to do so.
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Post Post #877 (ISO) » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:39 pm

Post by Battousai »

The reason I brought up miller was on the off chance CR would agree with it since his flavor sounded similar to a miller's. If he did claim we would have him in a lie. Unfortunately he didn't fall for it, nor was he scum.
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Post Post #878 (ISO) » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:04 pm

Post by Thestatusquo »

Axelrod wrote:Ah well. Should have been more insistant about lynching Destructor after Mizzy, but I was having trouble staying attentive to the game for long periods of time.

Well played by Destructor and Ort., no question. The set-up was extremely frustrating though, especially for someone like me. It played like a "No Reveal" game where you don't know anything with certainty for the entire time - not who was scum, not what abilities anyone had, nothing.

That was kind of weak by TSQ at the end too. I mean seriously, I don't care if you sucked this game, take a shot man.
It's not weak. The only chance I had is if either of them voted for the other, then I would have to hammer immediately. As it is, they'd both been saying I was their top suspect for like 3 days, so really I had no shot to take,
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Post Post #879 (ISO) » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:39 pm

Post by CarnCarn »

another question for petroleumjelly: why did you ban role flavor quoting (text from the book) after initially allowing it?
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Post Post #880 (ISO) » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:41 pm

Post by ortolan »

probably because e.g. mine was "we must play the devil with them", which is extremely scummy.

It probably wouldn't have mattered though, I would have just looked up an alternate obscure one which no-one else was likely to have.
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Post Post #881 (ISO) » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:42 pm

Post by ortolan »

and if destructor doesn't mind I will post the qt
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Post Post #882 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:32 am

Post by destructor »

I'm cool with our quicktopic being posted.

I was glad that quoting our text wasn't allowed. I figured the less flavour could play a role in the game, the better. Ultimately, I don't think flavour was telling (unless all scum claimed truthfully). It think pj made a point about that in the rules too.

I signed up as a replacement because the setup interested me. I was surprised that more people we're really paying a heap of attention to the details of it, and that led to discussions about roles that didn't exist as well as late realisations that we had alignment reveals only. It was strange that even when I bought it up in thread there was basically no response.

There more I'd like to talk about, but I don't have time right now...

Looking forward to seeing some of pj's commentary.

pj, why did you write scum's rolenames differently in each PM?
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Post Post #883 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:44 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Mod Commentary


1.)
This set-up had the exact same roles and mechanics as a game I have played on another forum. The only difference was the presentation of the set-up; at the other forum, the town was told the following:

9 innocents, 2 mafia, and 1 traitor. There will be a Doctor, and a 1-Shot Vigilante. However, any player (including mafia and traitor) may have the power roles.

Their set-up ended up giving the town both the Doctor and the 1-Shot Vig (just as I did in this game); I thought that set-up was balanced -- especially when you consider that the mafia does not know the identity of the traitor, and the town will probably get an “extra” lynch by (a) using the 1-Shot Vig; or (b) saving somebody with the Doctor; or (c) having mafia nightkilling their own Traitor.

2.)
The other forum also instituted the exact same limited reveal mechanic used here. I was a townie, and it was undoubtedly one of the most
frustrating
game I have ever played.

I think my initial dislike for the set-up came largely from the limited reveal aspect; as a long-time player at mafiascum.net, I have been indoctrinated into practically
relying
on full reveals. It was really only after I had a while to ponder the game that I realized that the experience was a game like this is; yes, you can never be sure who the traitor is or what (if any) power roles are dead, but it truly forces you to take the game to a new level.

3.)
One of the time-honored strategies at the other site – noting that they often included Traitors as a part of their role sets – was to look for traitor hints. The town wanted to find the traitor because that might lead to finding a mafia, or possibly both mafia. The mafia wants to find the traitor so they can avoid lynching/nightkilling them unless it is necessary. This leads the traitor into the quandary of trying to find ways to out themselves to the
mafia
but not to the town; and since there are more townspeople than mafia, a diligent town is more likely to catch any hints dropped. Because of the ‘power’ of finding the traitor, their site developed the ‘don’t reveal the traitor’ mechanic. I was a little disheartened that there did not ever seem to be people reading over the game for the sole purpose of looking for “traitor hints.”

4.)
Although the town loses some power in that the mafia/traitor may be able to claim a power role ‘safely’ when the correspondong power role dies, so too does the town gain power in having the option of claiming Traitor in certain situations. There are quite a good many of interesting scenarios that could result from that – for if the mafia acts on reliance of such a claim, they may out themselves only to learn the game is not as over as they thought. Similarly, the mafia may mistakenly act on the belief that there is a live traitor, leading to potentially bad situations, just like what happened in this game. In essence, the possible presence of the traitor almost forces the mafia to be cautious near endgame, even if they may have a win 'in the bag' if they were just to go for a quicklynch.

[Note: I actually claimed Traitor in the game I played on Day 4 with 6 alive. It did not turn out to be too successful in finding mafia, but some players did think me more likely to be town because of it.]

I do regret a little that the town in
this
game lost additional power because I essentially took away the chances of the town being able to counter-claim (in that the town ‘could’ have three power roles when I only gave them two), and that the mafia could direct further lynches by claiming the other roles I included as ‘possibilities’ in the game. I probably should have just used their set-up to the T by taking away role-blocker and Cop claims, but I was largely trying to present the set-up differently on the off-chance somebody recognized it from the other forum. *sigh*

5.)
As mentioned earlier, the Hunchback of Notre Dame flavor was largely pasted onto the set-up because I felt the game needed
some
sort of flavor as I did not feel comfortable running the game in the Little Italy forum. Also, I have had Notre Dame Mafia (based off my currently favorite board game) jumbling around in my mind for a while, so I thought this would be a cute way to lead up to that game.

6.)
I was also surprised at the late reactions to the limited reveal aspect. I tried to focus attention on that aspect to replacements and players in the sign-up queue, but the general trend seemed to be:
Player on Day 3 wrote:Wait,
WHAT?
Perhaps I should have bolded that text and drawn arrows to it and made the text very large or something, but I do kinda expect that players read my rules – or at least the set-up – to see if anything is different from the standard game.

~

To answer questions:

a.)
I banned text quoting because I wanted to keep the game ‘pure’ if possible. As it happens, I took all of the text from
one
source, and if that were discovered by the town than a mafiate who took text from a separate translation may have been lynched on that basis. Additionally -- although highly unlikely -- a mafiate
might
have claimed the exact same flavor text as another role, which would have been a ridiculous situation to deal with especially if the two translations were slightly different. I wanted to avoid scenarios such as those.

b.)
Scum role-names were written from each character’s perspective. I tried to give player’s their “full” name, but then abridged names – as they are more likely to be known as – to the other players.
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Post Post #884 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:00 pm

Post by CarnCarn »

petroleumjelly wrote:I was a little disheartened that there did not ever seem to be people reading over the game for the sole purpose of looking for “traitor hints.”
Well, I was trying to find communication between traitor and mafia, but when destructor said we don't have to lynch the Traitor to win, I kinda stopped caring. Would town win by lynching the two mafia or do they have to get the Traitor, too?
petroleumjelly wrote:Although the town loses some power in that the mafia/traitor may be able to claim a power role ‘safely’ when the correspondong power role dies, so too does the town gain power in having the option of claiming Traitor in certain situations. There are quite a good many of interesting scenarios that could result from that – for if the mafia acts on reliance of such a claim, they may out themselves only to learn the game is not as over as they thought.
I considered claiming Traitor before getting lynched, but I failed to see how it would either stop my lynch or help town. There are some situations where it would have been good to claim it, but I decided it wasn't the right one.

Thanks for the commentary, petroleumjelly.
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Post Post #885 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:08 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Nopes -- as the town win condition states, all the town needs is both mafia to be dead and one townsperson alive. Also, finding the traitor doesn't mean you have to
lynch
the traitor; you might just give them a pass and try to lynch the mafia instead. If you are relatively sure of who the traitor is, you could just keep that information to yourself and then push various people around to see how the traitor reacts, and then decide who you think is more or less likely to be mafia. The traitor
really
does not benefit in busing even a single member of the mafia, because at that point they will have to do everything they can to keep the other half of the mafia alive.

Really, a set-up like this ought to (in my opinion) be largely influenced by traitor hunting. It calls for a lot of subtledy and good judgment, and that is precisely why I ended up quite liking this set-up.
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Post Post #886 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:14 pm

Post by Battousai »

The reason why I failed to realize this was a limited reveal game was the fact that I read that it was a limited reveal game at the beginning, but when it doesn't come into effect for a long time, I forgot about it.
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Post Post #887 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:05 pm

Post by ortolan »

Currently modding Mole Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20529

Feel free to PM me to be ready in case I need a replacement.
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Post Post #888 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:24 pm

Post by CarnCarn »

wow you two talked a lot - that was... insightful.
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Post Post #889 (ISO) » Fri May 22, 2009 3:59 pm

Post by MeMe »

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