Newbie 2036 - Game Over

[Marky Mark]

Evening all - stayed up late so that I could get a cheeky RV in on the opening page !

I haven't played on this site for 6 years, so this is going to be interesting trying to remember how to hunt mafia

VOTE: Satisfaction

Because, in all honesty, I have yet to be fully satisfied (although an Oreo McFlurry comes pretty close).

[Marky Mark]

Hello. My name is Satisfaction and I am town-aligned. Good luck and have fun.

Very important question- is that first sentence something you write for every game, or is it something specific to this one?

Also, anything about your Tay Tay reading you're like to share, or do you want to keep that information close to the chest for the time being?

+1 for hearing your thoughts.

I'm pretty impressed that you've been doing pre-reading on the other players, clearly you are more dedicated than me haha. Would be interesting to hear what you have noticed, and far more importantly would get discussion going and generate some talking points.

[Marky Mark]

I'm off to bed but will check in tommorrow to catch up with all you lovely people

[Marky Mark]

Good morning all and happy weekend

So I guess we are probably just about still in RVS but none of the below are massively helpful in terms of exposition ie adding any meaningful info into the game for us to go off

VOTE: Tayl0r Swift

Name a good song she's made since Picture to Burn. I'll wait.

OMGUS!!

VOTE: Gawr

Hello everybody

VOTE: Gawr

Hey Y'all!

VOTE: trendall

VOTE: donkihott

[Marky Mark]

Hi.

That vote RVS or no?

We'll find out I guess

This, in particular, is frustrating. I am assuming it was meant in jest, but in a similar vein being coy and not revealing intentions just limits the info we have with which to try and find the scum

[Marky Mark]

@Gawr & Mark, I've only read her incidentally because she was in a game (or two) I was reading while focused on other players. She's clever. I'll skim back through and get back to you if anything jumps out.

Thanks - could be potentially interesting

VOTE: donkihott because I can't tell if your name is a goof on Donkey Kong, something to do with donks (cars or butts?), maybe the i is an Apple thing, or Don Quixote.

You were right with your last guess, it is indeed related to Don Quixote, it is just the way it is pronounced in my native language.

I will vote for Gawr cuz she talks too much

and I don't want to die on D1

VOTE: Gawr E-2

(My underline, not the original quote)

When I first read this, it came across as mildly scummy (voting another player to avoid dying themselves) but the more I think about this, the more town-ish it seems as what he specifically said that he didn't want to die on D1. I mean this is page 1 so take all this with a bit of salt, but it kinda comes across as a fellow townie. A scum wouldn't want to die period, but I know the feeling of being town, accepting that I may well die in the course of events (eg NK) but wanting to make it past the first day. I'm gonna put Donki down as a very mild town tell for now.

[Marky Mark]

Cross-posted with Hessian/Trendall.

Ref putting people at E-2, I don't think it's a massive deal in RVS and I have certainly seen it before in other games. @Donki, care to expound on why you put someone at E-2?

The question I was asked was frustrating so what can I do?

I mean, I don't think it was an unreasonable question - your vote was post #17 of the thread so while it was early days and definitely not a super-serious vote (I'm assusming ), there had already been some discssion and some posts by Gawr so there may have been some thought process involved on your end beyond randomly picking someone?

[Marky Mark]

Nice work Trendall - now we're really getting the ball rolling

I completely agree that due to the nature of day 1 there's not gonna be much to go off, but generating discussion rather than shutting it down is the answer to this. I also get your point that swamping the game in minutae is not helpful, but that is not an issue in the current game situation IMO - better to have some mildly useful info to get the discussion going than to have nothing to go off surely? I appreciate that to an extent I am paraphrasing hassian in #33 in this response, but I thought it was worth voicing as you seem to be moderately irked at having to write some meaningful analysis.

Ref your point #7, I get it and perhaps you think I am being too proactive by prodding people to add some content/flavour/exposition to their posts, but the bottom line is that we need to start generating information, and we have to start that somewhere. I agree that content-devoid first post is not in itself the crime of the century and I wouldn't even say its necessarily a tell either way, I am just keen to get people talking so that we actually start to build up info on each player to make a tell from

-- noticed the X-Post on previewing
Perhaps you aren't partiuclarly irked at having to explain yourself then - use of phrases like 'your funeral' gave me the vibe that you were mildly miffed

[Marky Mark]

^ exactly. Getting the discussion going and, just as importantly, getting everyone involved in it is really useful as (within reason) the more content we have from each player, the more stuff we have with which to work out whether they are town or not.

This is true both in terms of making a decision today on who to vote for, but equally importantly it means that on future days we can look back at what people said on d1 through a more informed lens (eg if player A tries really hard to get player B lynched on D1 and then player A turns out to be scum, this gives us useful info on player B to use on future days).

[Marky Mark]

I'm still interested in what made you want to join a newbie game given that I don't think you've played in one before.

As I've mentioned, I haven't played in 6 years but I decided to start playing again both for something fun to do during the inevitable winter of COVID and also to try and get better at articulating my point of view in writing, which I struggle with at work sometimes.

I figured a newbie game would be the best place to start so that I wasn't out of my depth, and also so that due to relatively simple roles/setup involved I could focus on the core gameplay itself.

Hope that helps and sorry if that's oversharing

[Marky Mark]

A fairly minor point of order Micc - I am voting for Satisfaction, not donki

[Marky Mark]

It wasn't the vote I was taking issue with, it was the fact another player had asked Trendall to explain his thought process, and in response Trendall was being elusive.

We've moved on a bit since then tbh but the bottom line is that if another player asks you to explain why you posted a particular thing then it seems fairly reasonable to explain the thought process.

[Marky Mark]

My underlines throughout

I'm not very experienced but is there a way to actually get information on D1, since we have no information whatsoever.

yes, you post, see how people interact, and look at what wagons form and how they evolve.

thats why its so important that everyone votes and is active

. but voting is really the most important thing, and staying on vanity wagons is really not that helpful. if your wagon of choice doesnt take off, compromise and loop back when the gamestate is a bit slower. this helps keep the game moving and means the wagons are easier to analyze. people not voting or staying away from main wagons look like theyre either defending scum or are scum themselves wanting to look innocent and scared to get on wagons that are on town. bit of advice: use your vote as your main voice. justify your movements, but its ok to sheep people sometimes. As both town and scum, dont be afraid to run people up to large wagons and see what happens.

You make the point it is so important that people post and are active...

yeah i dont know what happened on most of page 2. those posts were way too long, im not gonna read those.

donkihott is prolly town tho.

...but then you go on to say that you're not going to read the actual content that people have posted (ie on page 2). Just made me smile haha - I guess you don't consider it to be that importanta after all?

[Marky Mark]

I am, of course, being slightly facetious here as much of this will be useful to go back over throughout the game to refine our reads on people, but couldn't resist the irony of pointing it out.

[Marky Mark]

yeah i dont know what happened on most of page 2. those posts were way too long, im not gonna read those. donkihott is prolly town tho.

On a moderately more serious note, is it the same reasons I articulated earlier that are making you think donki is town or somehting else?

[Marky Mark]

Couple of things that stuck out to me before I head to bed

While I found your vote weird, I was not too suspicious of you, and my actions have reflected that: I worded my post very mildly; I didn't move my vote from RVS onto you; in my next few posts, I engaged with other people on different topics. So the fact that you are reading my single, mildly worded post as me being "very sus" on you... feels like an overreaction, and actually does make me quite suspicious of you now.

This is valid to an extent although, interstingly, donki goes on to say that his reasons were "not a solid argument at all" in #56 which kinda undermines the point he has just made, so I'm guessing he meant it more as a train of consciousness type thing than evidence to actually go off?

I'm re-reading now but here are a couple of quick takes.

1. Early E-2 is nothing. I'm not sure why anybody would clutch their pearls about it apart from creating false drama or fishing for reactions. Criticism of this vote does not smell towny to me and I like that it stands for now.
2. I understand why people didn't like Trendall's initial reactions, but I absolutely see it coming from a town place before a scum place. Scum!Trendall has little to gain by making himself a controversial figure on page 2.
3. Your vote is your most powerful tool. Sure, place it on folks you think are scummy. Buuuut you're playing with one hand behind your back if you aren't using it to apply pressure as part of an investigatory process and you aren't being fair to the town if you hold up wagon progress just because you think you've nailed scum all on your own.

Agreed early E-2 is not a big deal, although I can also see how a new player might not know that. Ref Trendall, yeah his first couple of posts seemed obstructive but I guess part of that is just his tone/sense of humour as he then went on to talk through his opinions in probably the most analytical post so far this game.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you all for bringing some real enterainment to my Saturday; it's been a pleasure. I'll catch up with you all tomorrow

[Marky Mark]

Good afternoon all,

You're saying that town would be particularly sad to die on D1, which I accept; but I think that scum would also be particularly sad to die on D1, since then they don't get to engage in any scummy behavior.

I agree with hessian here and would even take it a bit further. Townies are typically dead when they win. That's just kind of our lot in life. There's more reason for scum to adopt a survivalist mindset than for town. There are only two of them. They lose when they die. The town has more chances and some must die to achieve our goals.

All of that being said, I don't like this conversation very much. I prefer to focus on potential motivations and what I'm seeing here from Marky Mark is words without much teeth to them. That could point to a motivation to appear like he is hunting. Townies shouldn't care too much about how they appear.

VOTE: Marky Mark

I mean this was page one right, so it was hardly going to be the most insightful analysis of the century, but I was trying to get the ball rolling. I am also trying to get my head around the logic behind you voting me; this seems to be along the lines of "he is trying to be proactive and hunt scum, therefore he must be scum wanting to look like town" which is pretty WIFOM-y when ockham's razor would suggest the much simpler (and correct) answer that I just want to build reads on players and actually find the scum. I wouldn't want to misrep you though, so please let me know if you think I'm being unfair here.

• hessian is hunting
• Frederick is lurking
• Townlean on Trendall
• Gawr seems eager, but I would have just looked at my post history instead of asking were I in her shoes.

Now this seems much more on the money - I would even go one step further with Fred; his posts so far have been strongly focused on the mechanics of post formatting and been very lacking in actual substance.

yeah i dont know what happened on most of page 2. those posts were way too long, im not gonna read those. donkihott is prolly town tho.

On a moderately more serious note, is it the same reasons I articulated earlier that are making you think donki is town or somehting else?

i dont know what those reasons were and im not going to check.

posting is good. but if your post is an essay, im prolly gonna skip it, especially on day 2. i dont plan on ever reading through that entire post. it looks very boring and probably not that helpful at sorting anyone (i read a sentence or two)

I am all for being a pragmatist, and I would understand if you were replacing into a 10+ page game and didn't have time to read it all, but when we are literally talking about 3 pages then I feel it is reasonable to expect people to engage with the game and take the time to make use of the full body of info available to make the most informed decision possible, especially when our collective success depends on people making good judgement calls.

marky mark what are your initial reads on people?

I am going to go back through things today and come up with a meaningful readslist later today. If I have time, and can work out how to do it, I might even upload a Marky Mark Scumplotter (TM) diagram. Again, as with your above quote, I did enjoy the irony of you saying that you haven't been reading people's analysis because it is long and boring (my apologies ) but then asking me for more analysis.

[Marky Mark]

As alluded to immediately above, I will post my current reads in more detail later and will make a meaningful (non-RVS) vote at the same time but for now:

UNVOTE: Satisfaction

While your logic for voting me seems a little thin, I like the fact that you are analyzing other player's motives for posting and trying to be proactive. Again, this could be scum trying to build a case against me out of nothing, but that is a WIFOM rabbit hole that I am not going to go down right now so I will take this on face value as townish and remove my earlier RVS vote, which has outlived its purpose.

[Marky Mark]

As promised, my reads so far:

1. Gawr

Not a massive amount to go off, as she only has 4 posts, the most recent of which is #18 so still well within the RVS stage. In her #14, she calls out Satisfaction for his tone, but beyond that, there is little of substance.

No strong read right now.

2. Tayl0r Swift

Has made some moderately contradictory posts ( eg "thats why its so important that everyone votes and is active. (#54)" vs "posting is good. but if your post is an essay, im prolly gonna skip it, especially on day 2" (#68)). This now makes more sense after 80 although I'm confused by her logic that longer thought-out posts are less useful - surely the fact that someone has taken time to think through it means it is more likely to be insightful. Her calling donki town in #55 is fairly opaque, so I'm finding it hard to get a good read on her and her motives for writing that. The more I read 80, the more it feels like a bit of a flail - there's not really that much actual substance when it comes down to it. Her vote on me is E-2 btw, just thought I'd call that out as she has conveniently forogtton to mention it.

Hard to read but closer to scum than town - her posts don't have much substance to them and it feels like she is not really engaging with the game below the surface level, while remaining opportunistic.

3.hessian

She seems to be proactive in trying to scum hunt eg her #34 calling out my word choice (I mean, it was just how I happened to write it, but it's good that she is trying to look for reads on people) and also eg #71, trying to tease meaningful info out of players who haven't been contributing as much. This is tempered by her vote on donki, which seems a bit shallow:

What matters to me is that in donkihott's mind, my single post means that I'm very suspicious of him. This feels like scum overreacting. VOTE: donkihott

I still think you are misreading what donki meant, ie he admitted in his own post that his reason for instinctively finding you sus was not a good one, but I'm sure he can address this better than I can as he wrote it haha. Would be a bold play by donki as scum to make a self-aware post criticizing his own flawed thought process, so I think Hessian is making way too much out of this. My town read on donki makes this seem even more sus by relation, but still outweighed by the town points above in the scheme of things.

Mild town read


4. Olivia2020

Hasn't posted much and only has one post with any meaningful analysis (#79):

Hello everybody

Hi.

That vote RVS or no?

I find this remark scummy. The vote was most likely RVS because of the page number, and post number, and I feel like gawr wouldn't have said this if he was town. I feel like he is saying it because he is worried about being eliminated, but I am almost 100% sure this vote was RVS.

This is a bit of a strawman argument - I don't see how being worried about being eliminated has any correlation with asking someone about why they voted randomly. Moreover, Trendall actually stated later on that he doesn't vote randomly, meaning that your post is not only making a spurious scum read but is also factually incorrect when it claims Trendall's vote was clearly an RVS:

As far as I can remember I only ever use my vote to vote for the person I identify as the biggest threat to the town. I don't vote to 'get reactions' and I don't vote randomly. However any vote of mine could have any degree of certainty from 'I don't care about this vote' to 'I am not changing my vote here whatever happens'. My vote on Gawr here is very much an 'I don't care about this vote'.

Leaning towards scum

5. Satisfaction

Hasn't posted loads, but what he has posted is actually meaningful and contains some solid analysis on the most part. #62 and #66 feel pretty on the money and, as I have already mentioned, while his reasons for voting me seem pretty wifom-y, the fact he is actively trying to analyse people's posts and think about why they might have phrased them so feels like a fairly town thing to do.

Town read.

6. donkihott

As I have said previously, his tone feels fairly authentic town and his self-awareness in #56 doesn't strike me as a scum trait. Would be good to hear more from him though as he hasn't posted a great deal.

Town read.

7. Trendall (SE)

Like others, I found his coyness a bit scummy at first, but he's posted some decent analysis and I'm coming round to the idea of him being town. His vote is still on Gawr from very early on and he has not really posted anything since his big essay post (#31) in terms of who he sees at scum atm so would be good to hear from him more.

Mild town read.

8. Fredrick A Campbell (SE)

I was already finding his focus on the mechanics of posting rather than the actual game state a little scummy as it felt like trying to post stuff without saying anything that could later be pinned against him (he has not said anything meaningful all game). In response to his #77, I unvoted because I feel like votes have meaning and purpose (I'm with Trendall on this one) so it made sense IMO to take it off now that we are out of RVS until I had had time to sit down properly and analyse people's posts and put it down meaningfully on someone.

Scum read.

I had called him out in #74 and promised to vote later so this feels a bit like a pre-emptive vote to me, ie him getting in there and voting me first so that if I vote him it comes across as OMGUS.

[Marky Mark]

As promised - please bask in the glory of my ScumPlotter (TM) mk 1

[Marky Mark]

Now to get to voting and also respond in doing so to Taylors point in #80 that me calling her out for not engaging with the game is artificial.

What I am basically really scared of is letting people fly under the radar - it's been a long long time since I have played, but the most insidious type of scum to deal with in my previous experiences is the type that just lurks and doesn't post a lot as it is hard to differentiate between this and someone who just generally isn't engaged with the game. What I really don't want to happen is that we end up on D2 or even further and we have no meaningful info to go off on certain players as they haven't said anything of substance in previous days. As such, I am trying to be clear in my thoughts and my intentions and I want to see others do the same - it is in the interests of the town.

Of the players in this game, the ones I am currently finding the most suspicious (with the noteable exception of donki) also happen to be ones that are sitting back and not giving us much to go off.

FOS Taylor

I've covered this already but her general disinterest and lack of explanations is starting to feel anti-town. #80 is a flail and #81 is opportunistic. There is absolutely zero reason not to state E-2 in #81 - it is to the town's benefit to know when someone is within 2 votes of a lynch.

VOTE: Fred

Weaker read than Taylor but potentially more scummy. The lurking combined with the 0 context vote on me as soon as I voice my suspicions of you is fishy. I also feel like my vote will do more on Fred than it will on Taylor as hopefully we will actually get some substance/explanation out of him but they are both looking shady to me right now.

[Marky Mark]

Just a really quick one from me - I realise that I have used a couple of terms that might not be super-newbie friendly and the whole point of this game is for us all to learn so here are a couple of links:

FOS - https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _Suspicion

WIFOM - https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM

Ockham's razor - https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... %27s_Razor

Hope that is mildly useful, now to get back to cooking my dinner

[Marky Mark]

should we pressure people to vote and/or defend themselves to go on the next phase or should we take our time.

We should vote and apply pressure. Watch how people wriggle when we leave them on the hook. Observe the reactions of the other players and get them on record about their feelings on the wagons. As the game goes on, it will be handy to look back to today and watch who moved their votes, where, and when.

We should not make an elimination until we are nearly out of time.

This is absolutely on the money, time is a resource that we have, so we ought to make good use of it.

[Marky Mark]

Very well; do you have any views on the rest of the thread that you'd like to share?

Well not much to be honest, I noticed that Gawr started really loud and he is dead quiet now even though he's been asked a direct question, Marky likes longer posts and Taylor prefers short.
Right now to me Marky seems like one of the good ones or at least he is really trying to appear as one.
What is a good pace of the game? Like, should we pressure people to vote and/or defend themselves to go on the next phase or should we take our time.

yes hes doing a lot to try and look town. but his analysis is pretty poor and based on stuff that i dont think is AI without more context. most of his reads are ????????????? to me, and usually thats a sign of scum.

Sorry, I'm genuinely not familiar with AI as an acronym in a Mafia context - would you mind explaining?

So, you've asked me for reads, I have obliged based on what we know so far

As others have pointed out, if we are open about our suspicions now, then it makes the task of discerning scum much easier later on when alignments have started to be revealed. In many cases those reads were based off ~4 posts so it's not gonna be Sherlock levels of analysis haha.

[Marky Mark]

so would be good to hear from him more.

I'm just continuing to vote for Gawr, I dunno if they're gonna come back and say more, and then if they do I'll decide what to do. Lynch on Marky Mark is fine I have no objection to it. Marky Mark's votes just flail around between whoever is 'offering less content' or whatever, and his whole entire posts are just about how people should be generating content and explaining themselves and so on - there was no indication that people weren't going to sorta do this anyway so I don't know if it needed to be said once. So I've read so much about how it's important to generate content, and him signposting exactly what he's doing and how towny it is that I just think 'yeah I don't need to read this any more we can lynch him it's fine'.

Otherwise I think everyone else seems like town other than hessian who piggybacked Marky Mark's sketchy 'generating content' and 'look how town I am' stuff. Plus they both made some rough arguments (Marky Mark in post 27, hessian in post 34). Actually yeah I think one of those two will be the mafia and then yeah maybe Gawr for the other one.

So this is a bit of a strawman - I have made exactly one non-RVS vote so clearly, my vote isn't flailing around between people. I do think his vote on gwar serves a purpose though - there are currently 4 players with 5 or fewer posts who we are effectively giving a free ride to. That's not to say they are necessarily scum, but I don't want to go into day 2+ with nothing of substance from them to make a read off.

I am also loving this 'too town' argument from both Taylor and Trendall. It's a sneaky one as it is impossible to discredit. I'm just going to continue to try and add value and make myself of use and people can draw their own conclusions . Fwiw I still think Trendall is more likely town than not.

[Marky Mark]

Should have included this in my above post but just wanted to say goodnight all - it's been really enjoyable playing with you all this weekend

[Marky Mark]

so would be good to hear from him more.

I'm just continuing to vote for Gawr, I dunno if they're gonna come back and say more, and then if they do I'll decide what to do. Lynch on Marky Mark is fine I have no objection to it. Marky Mark's votes just flail around between whoever is 'offering less content' or whatever, and his whole entire posts are just about how people should be generating content and explaining themselves and so on - there was no indication that people weren't going to sorta do this anyway so I don't know if it needed to be said once. So I've read so much about how it's important to generate content, and him signposting exactly what he's doing and how towny it is that I just think 'yeah I don't need to read this any more we can lynch him it's fine'.

Otherwise I think everyone else seems like town other than hessian who piggybacked Marky Mark's sketchy 'generating content' and 'look how town I am' stuff. Plus they both made some rough arguments (Marky Mark in post 27, hessian in post 34). Actually yeah I think one of those two will be the mafia and then yeah maybe Gawr for the other one.

exactly. tons of talk about how everyone should be playing, but no talk about how the things people are doing makes him sort them as town or scum.

I mean I have literally just posted my reads on people and why I think they are town/scum/idk so this is a bit of a reach from Taylor. She must be able to see this argument is paper thin so I guess she's either fishing for a reaction or is just flinging mud to see what sticks

[Marky Mark]

4. Olivia2020

Hasn't posted much and only has one post with any meaningful analysis (#79):
In post 79, Olivia2020 wrote:
In post 18, Gawr wrote:
In post 17, Trendall wrote:
Hello everybody


Hi.

That vote RVS or no?

I find this remark scummy. The vote was most likely RVS because of the page number, and post number, and I feel like gawr wouldn't have said this if he was town. I feel like he is saying it because he is worried about being eliminated, but I am almost 100% sure this vote was RVS.


This is a bit of a strawman argument - I don't see how being worried about being eliminated has any correlation with asking someone about why they voted randomly. Moreover, Trendall actually stated later on that he doesn't vote randomly, meaning that your post is not only making a spurious scum read but is also factually incorrect when it claims Trendall's vote was clearly an RVS:

What I mean is, Asking if a vote is RVS in the first page of the game seems scummy to me. I dont think someone that is town would ask that, you don't have to agree with me.

What are your thoughts since that post and/or your reads more generally?

Would also be good to get some general reads from gwar/fred who seem to be content to stay in the shadows

[Marky Mark]

GG - that was an absolute nail-biter to watch towards the end. Well played everyone, and especially to Fred for managing to cling on by yourself to get us the win

[Marky Mark]

I'm not gonna lie, the donki lolhammer did miff me a bit at the time

[Marky Mark]

I still think the elim on him was a poor choice because to just turn around 180 degrees, say 'fk it' and then hammer your own buddy would be a 200IQ scum play

[Marky Mark]

^ Yeah, massive TY to the mods for running this

[Marky Mark]

I think that was one of the big brain plays of the game

You flatter me :3 - it was bad enough getting elimed D1 so I certainly didn't want to drag my buddy down with me

What was it like being a Mason? I've never been one but it seems like a really cool role to have as you've got an ally and a bit of certainty, which are two things you rarely get as town