Newbie 2044 | Game Over

[Trendall]

Hello

[Trendall]

I also think its more likely that mafia would be pushing Tama for something like that than that Tama themself is mafia.

Yeah it's a v sketchy argument.

VOTE: MiniMegabyte

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Yeah I did realise that.

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UNVOTE:
VOTE: Luca Blight

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Accusing people of slips when there isn't one is what mafia do.

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That's like, really stretching

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So pretty much everyone thinks I’m scum...

Nah I think you're probably town

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The argument against them sounds like one that would come from mafia, so I think it's more likely that they're town.

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Doing an 'unofficial vote count' is suspicious as anything, you could create so much confusion by 'accidentally' getting them wrong and stuff.

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It's just somebody trying to make it look as though they're being towny while actually not doing anything.

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What do you think of Mini, independent of what anyone else thinks of her?

Well they just seem to be responding like somebody who can't really do much about the arguments presented against them. Like if they're town they know they can't possibly have 'slipped', and with the preview thing I think somewhere they accurately pointed out that nobody explained what that really has to do with them being mafia or not. But if they didn't see it, they didn't see it, they can't do much about that. Generally if a player gets frustrated at the start of a game like that I'm more likely to just think they're town.

'Fellow townie' to me just seems like a turn of phrase that people use without really thinking about who they're referring to. People come in and say 'hello fellow townies' at the start of the game despite the fact that they know not everyone there can be aligned with the town. And the preview thing - I keep getting this thing recently where I submit a post and it just completely vanishes and I have to type out the whole thing again. Or somebody can just not see the preview thing or whatever. Neither of those things are a big deal for me so I have no real reason to think MiniMegabyte is mafia at the moment.

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Is this still a big deal?

Never was

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It's all relative, most early day one ideas get replaced by more substantial ideas later on in the game.

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And 'v sketchy' and 'very sketchy' are two different things.

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Yeah it does, but there would be a difference between say 'I love you very much' and 'I love you v much', that's my point.

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I didn't say that you did, I said that one could. And it's just not necessary other than to create this 'look how helpful I'm being' vibe because you wanna look town.

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The evidence is your providing your own vote count to try and look like you're doing something.

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You actually wrote 'with 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate' and all this kind of stuff on it. In reality all a person needs to do is say 'Mini is at E-2' or something.

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the newbie's might not know that it takes majority to eliminate.

There's no way that you believe this or that that was your thought process.

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I don't use these acronyms 'LAMIST' and stuff so I can't comment on that.

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Does writing "With 9, it takes 5 to eliminate" on my fake votecount make me look like I want to look town?

I don't know why you are asking me this because I've already said that, yes. It's unnecessary busywork, and one possible thing that motivates players to engage in unnecessary busywork like this is that they are a mafia looking for things to do in lieu of having actual arguments against people.

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Like, I'd like to question you again.

What because I went 7 minutes without answering you?

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Don't strawman, please. I still don't quite understand why you think I am scummy.

That's not a 'strawman'.

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The definition for strawman is:

That's not a 'strawman', a 'strawman' and other fallacies take place within arguments, and arguments have reasons and conclusions. I wasn't arguing for any conclusion, I just effectively made a statement about your being unreasonable in leaving me time to reply. That statement wasn't said in support of any further conclusion. It was just a statement, so no 'strawmen' can have taken place.

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Your reasoning is that Ben is intentionally ignoring most of your post.

I didn't say anything resembling this at all, he is welcome to ignore as much of my posts as he likes. I haven't complained about him ignoring parts of my posts once, so you might have misread somewhere I don't know.

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Must've. I'll reread and reconvene.

Cause also you were like 'I'm Cook' but I don't think I've been talking to you at any point in that conversation, just to ben.

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Can you answer my questions?

What were they?

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I don't see what relevance it has whether you are 'engaging with other players' or not. The second one, I have already explained what my position is on this so not sure why I'm being asked this when I've already answered.

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I think you, MiniMegabyte, Cook and Tama the Egg Cracker are all fine. ben dover123 and Luca Blight are a bit more suspicious.

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^ Referring to Lunar Martian

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I didn't make a big deal out of it, I mentioned it in like one post, and then ben spent like 30 pages asking me questions about it as though I had made a big deal out of it.

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which is kinda making a big deal out of nothing.

If it were up to me I would have just posted like that one sentence, and like maybe someone else would have said 'okay' and like it barely ever would have come up again. You're the one who had a gigantic reaction to it and wanted to talk about it for about 40 pages.

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If you still think I had a huge reaction I can pull up quotes.

Like it's still going on now sorta thing...

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you seem persistent in proving everything I say is wrong.

Well a few posts ago you were complaining about me ignoring most of what you said, and now you are complaining that I am trying to prove

everything

that you say wrong which...I mean again you're the one saying 'you haven't answered my question this' and 'I want an explanation that' so it's like...what can I do?

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I just said one thing, which is 'oh this guy's posted his own vote count which is like him making it look as though he's doing something' and I never had anything further to say on the issue. Like I obviously don't care about this as much as you do. Again, it was just meant to be one sentence but you've dragged it out into this massive thing for honestly over 50 pages now. So you've had this mega-reaction to like, the tiniest bit of pressure ever, that's what I can see has happened here.

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Didn't you SR me for the unofficial votecount being LAMIST-y? That's the whole reason why I brought this argument up. I didn't get why it was worthy of an SR.

I said it was a sketchy thing to do or words to that effect but I didn't come out and declare like 'I now have a SCUM READ on ben dover123 because of his LAMIST argument', I don't talk like that lmao. I think it's too early for me to identify who is mafia at this point, like some people in the game haven't spoken yet I think. All I did was note down like this one point against one player which like, might become relevant later or or might not.

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Pedit: I think that this argument has been driving the discussion for a bit too long and that everyone's sort of tuned out.

Yeah welcome to a game with ben dover123.

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Question: do you think the silent ones will speak up, lurk any longer, or get replaced?

I wouldn't know, we'll just have to wait and see.

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tbh If you wanted to end the discussion you could have but you didn't.

No because then you would have complained about me ignoring your posts.

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Weren't you commenting on smaller and smaller things in my posts though? If you just made 1 post explaining why you thought my unofficial VC was scummy and answered all the questions then I would have been satisficed. Instead it took us about a page to answer all the questions post by post.

Yeah because you were just asking me the same question that I'd already answered over and over again.

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explain your TL's and SL's please.

I can do what I like lol

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If you just made 1 post explaining why you thought my unofficial VC was scummy

I did, it was post #194

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Well it's hard when I say one tiny little thing that isn't a big deal just as like a side comment, and then you spend 60 pages treating it as though it was like this huge thing. It's like, I could post what I think but then I'd have like another 80 lines of ben meta-commentary and 'uhhhhh. what?' and stuff like that to deal with and I honestly can't be bothered.

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but you're definitely also making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be

I'm not, I'm just responding to his posts directed at me, and there are a lot of posts directed at me, so it's making me look as though I wanna talk about it more than I actually do. Like I said, if it were up to me it would have been like a two line conversation.

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Trendall, you saying "you spend 60 pages treating it as though it was like this huge thing" when the entire thread is on page 11 is an exaggeration which only serves to escalate things.

I was being conservative actually, it was more like 80

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Cool.

Performatively not having any further thoughts, huh?

"See Trendall how easy it is when the person just gives a sufficient explanation in the first place!"

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I'm about to write my own reads

More signposting the towny things that you're doing rather than just actually getting on and doing them.

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STOP. Like actually stop.

People are going to have reads of you and interpretations of your posts, that's how the game works. 'Stop scumreading me' lol

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Like if you really believe that I am now scummy vote for me.

I'll vote for who I like. I think Luca Blight is a better elimination.

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You are just riling me up so hard it seems like you want to get into another scruff, which isn't what I want to do rn.

Why can't you handle someone arguing against you though are you mafia?

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it got us nowhere.

That's not true, it gave me information to work with that might be valuable in my figuring out your alignment as the game goes on.,

And again, just because you keep pointing out how town you are and how we should all look at you being so town because you 'want to work together', doesn't mean you are actually town.

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It's just a normal conversation don't exaggerate.

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Didn't you say that the argument didn't really do much for any of us too?

Where did I say this?

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after I recollect my sanity.

More huge reactions and drama over tiny things.

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Ok, so you say that I argued over such a small thing for 80 pages ish, and now you say it's a normal conversation? Don't contradict yourself my dude.

I didn't, that's completely normal for you.

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Why do you scumread me?

Cause in my experience people who accuse other people of 'slips' turn out to be mafia most of the time.

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So just out of meta?

See this is the problem isn't it, I can't post anything without you asking some question trying to coax me into saying a less accurately worded version of that thing.

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Interesting. Why do you think that is?

Because something's either a slip or it isn't, someone either knew something they shouldn't have known, or they didn't. So when people try to take minutiae about the way people phrase things and blow this up into a 'slip' as if something objective took place, it's suspicious.

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Wha...

Nor can I post anything without you like...having a reaction to it and it's so wearing.

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Can you not see why I think that was a legitimate slip?

I can see why you think that, it's just reaching and I don't agree with you.

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I always incorporate reactions in my posts, if you can't handle it then just ignore it.

It's not that I 'can't handle it' it's just like...obviously anti-town.

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Well if this guy goes around accusing people of slips as town then whatever. I mean the second one of those has nothing to do with slips, and the first one probably doesn't either, but if that's something he does it's something he does. So let's get

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ben dover123

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Cause I mean he is absolutely falling to pieces under the smallest amounts of scrutiny right now, right?

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or is there another possible explanation?

People use phrases such as 'fellow townie' all the time without necessarily thinking specifically about what the words mean.

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That's sorta how I'd expect somebody to react when they know that they didn't do any 'slip' and can't really do much else other than say to you 'no it wasn't'.

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Fair enough, because I did the same yesterday, but you really don't think she overreacted a bit?

No that reaction makes sense to me because straight away, they're put in a position of 'there's nothing I can really say to convince you otherwise, if you see it that way you see it that way', and that's a frustrating one to be in. They didn't try to confabulate a reason as to why they wrote 'fellow townies' (like for example ben did when asked about his with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch...he started pretending like there was some actual thought process which led to that), they were just like 'no I didn't mean it like that' and that was the end of it, which is a decent reaction.

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Well try to get them eliminated then if it means that much to you.

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Nice

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Cook seems fine to me. I'd say that if both mafia have spoken then it'll be ben dover123 and still Luca Blight on the basis that all the other people so far are sliiiightly more towny. However I think it's more likely that it'll be ben and one of the ppl who haven't spoken yet.

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. . .

I'll comment later.

Again needless dramatic reaction. Theater, tryna create a big build up for their rebuttal. Mafia under pressure.

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UNVOTE:

Gonna see what ben dover123's replacement has to say and could really do with hearing from ppl who haven't spoken yet as well.

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I am a bit confused as to why Cook is voting for someone in their 'likely townie' category as opposed to say, someone in their 'potential scum' category. If it's a matter of 'if one's town the other's maf' then that makes sense, but then why present the information as a list from most likely to least likely in the first place if that's not like an independent property.

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Regret unvoting the replacement.

As I explained already, most of the 'content' that I posted I would rather have not posted, but that guy kept having a huge meltdown every time I posted everything, like 'whaaa? huh!!!! explain your reads in full and post a full reads list now!', and it's like if he's going to accuse me of 'strawman' and 'contradictions' then I have to like, deal with it. And now other people are starting to be like 'this guy has posted nothing of substance' well

of course

because the questions I was being asked and the comments I was dealing with about me contained no substance in the first place.

VOTE: HeWhoSwims

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Wait, what did I just read.

Why is making a unofficial votecount scummy? I wanted everyone to know who was where in their votes.

I literally posted the most recent vote from everyone. Wdym I got it wrong?

So you are saying I look LAMIST-y? I'd like some evidence, if that is your claim.

What do you see from me? Do you see overall LAMIST-y behavior? If you don't, then you consider 1 unofficial votecount to be a sign that this person is LAMIST?

So that is what makes me LAMIST-y? I do that in all my other votecounts too, the newbie's might not know that it takes majority to eliminate.

It was, but Trendall, answer me. Does putting "With 9, it takes 5 to eliminate" make me overall really LAMIST-y? That just fully doesn't make any sense.

Does writing "With 9, it takes 5 to eliminate" on my fake votecount make me look like I want to look town? That just fully doesn't make any sense.

Before you say "to do in lieu of having actual arguments against people", maybe you should check what I have already done. Haven't I already engaged with other players? Yes.

Like, I'd like to question you again. So I have not been engaging with other players? So I am giving everyone unnecessary busywork and it is scummy?

Don't strawman, please. I still don't quite understand why you think I am scummy.

The definition for strawman is:

This is blowing up just 1 section of the whole post. I expect you to know that the reason I am questioning you again is because I still don't understand why you think I am scummy because of writing "With 9, it takes 5 to eliminate".

This is all in response to

one

throwaway comment about how making your own fake votecount is sketchy. He needed as much information about it as possible because he was pretending to be town and needed to know like, exactly how much to dial it in. And he kept trying to bait me into using his acronyms like 'LAMIST', presumably so he could argue about definitions of them and then make me look like I was wrong or contradicted myself or whatever later on. You don't have to answer questions from people when they are leading questions trying to put words in your mouth.

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Vote is also kind of OMGUSsy but w/e I did come for your neck too.

Are you kidding me? 'OMGUSy'? I voted you before you even joined the game. The idea that I am voting for you here out of spite for your voting for me is trying to misrepresent me hugely. But I mean we've had two people in this slot now and they've both looked like mafia so...

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what exactly makes me look like mafia?

The fact that you tried to misrepresent my vote as an 'omgus' vote when it can't possibly have been because I voted for you first.

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Or did you vote me based on Ben's actions?

How else would it work? You think that as soon as a player replaces out, all of their content should be considered null and they should be vindicated for everything? The fact that you are trying to complexify a basic concept and ask questions about something which only has one possible answer furthers the likelihood of you being mafia.

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it seemed like a bit of an OMGUS vote yes.

Misrepresenting your vote is a risk, ig

Why are you continuing to do it in the same post then?

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Hi!

Hello!

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Because

they haven't posted anything.

Why do you think that makes them more likely to be mafia?

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Welcome

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Yeah looks like it

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Look At Me I'm So Town

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Tad-bit unfortunate that I am not too sure why I think so.

To what extent do you think that they planned it ahead, like do you think that it was coordinated in the mafia chat and they were saying like 'okay you bring up my thing about preview chat', or do you just think they like jumped at the opportunity to argue with one another and improvised?

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Frederick A Campbell's votes are just like, all over the place.

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What do you hope to achieve by publicizing this observation of yours?

Nothing in particular, I'm just saying like, 'woah, what's going on?!'

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There is like one and a half days until the deadline so we need to decide on an elimination. The Mini elimination is a complete waste of time like 'oh let's just eliminate a town player today', so we can either settle on that one and I can hammer it if absolutely necessary. Or we can get HeWhoSwims which is better, or me, but ppl need to make a decision.

Most important thing is to avoid a no elimination.

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I'm never like, massively sure of anything but I just think they're behaving in a way that I'd expect a new town player to and the arguments against them are weak, and I think people on here say that they are good like 'lynchbait' or whatever so I'd always be more suspicious of the people voting for them than them themselves.

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Lunar doesn't look suspicious at all to me.

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the sensible thing to do is get rid of Mini, especially as she has claimed VT.

Yeah I agree with this, I just think Mini is town.

VOTE: MiniMegabyte

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I'm not bothered either way but I'm not convinced I did hammer. Because you voted for Mini and said that was L-2, then voted for me, putting Mini to L-3, and then since then Polaris voted putting them to L-2, what have I missed?

[Trendall]

Cool we can find out if they're maf or not then

[Trendall]

VOTE: No Elimination

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Trendall, why did you hammer Mini if you thought they were town?

Because town has to collectively decide who to eliminate and that seemed like the person you guys wanted to eliminate, there wasn't much activity near the end of the day and it was close to a deadline, I wanted to avoid a situation where there was no eliminaton, Mini had claimed vanilla townie so it would have been mad to try to change the wagon to somebody else and then have them claim cop or something and then have to deal with that all with like a day to go, if Mini had come in to defend themselves you guys wouldn't have listened anyway because apparently they 'slipped', and so on.

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Also, I could have been wrong I guess, that's another reason.

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I can't see any real reason to not no-eliminate

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Oh no that's not a good line

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I already posted like seven and a half hours ago.

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[*]I believe he/she is asking for a No Elimination to end the day early so that I, the only player scrutinizing him/her can be killed

If I were mafia wouldn't it make more sense for me to just join the people voting for you?

[Trendall]

Yes, there’s literally no good reason to no-elim today.

Can somebody explain to me why not then?

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Yeah cause if I get my no elimination then it could be like, absolutely disastrous for town.

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Not sure who to eliminate right now

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Can someone summarise what the issues ppl have with Cook are?

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I was reading through as you posted actually

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I was reading through as you posted actually

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Oh no I posted that twice

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.Thinking about it I'm pretty happy to get anybody who described Mini's thing as a 'slip' actually, so Cook is included in that.

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It’s more indicative of scum to have absolutely no suspicion of it whatsoever, as they already knew Mini’s alignment.

No.

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I suspect Trendall for insisting on a no kill for no reason.

'Insisting' isn't an accurate way of characterising how I communicated that, and I obviously did have a reason.

[Trendall]

I did have a reason.

[Trendall]

Only if you ask nicely.

[Trendall]

Please state the reason.

Well it all revolves around the idea that if there are two mafia in the game, when there are eight people alive you have the opportunity to miseliminate once, and when there are seven people alive you have the opportunity to miseliminate once. So it's like what's the point in sitting have a massive discussion trying to narrow it down between eight people when you can just allow a night kill and clear one of the players, and then only have to narrow it down between seven people.

[Trendall]

Trendall doesn't want someone who has a vote on them rn to get hammered. Now to figure out who that is.

If that were true then there would be easier ways for me to go about that rather than wanting to no eliminate, which is quite obviously always going to cast suspicion on me.

[Trendall]

Cook is now confirmed scum.

Why are they 'confirmed'?

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My thinking was actually that Cook was town but what I don't understand about their post is why they accounted for the fact that mafia could have no killed night one and said it didn't confirm Luca, but then didn't account for the exact same situation on the second night and seemed to think Tama was confirmed as town and wrote it in big bold letters. Am I missing something there?

[Trendall]

Try reading.

Am I going to find 'confirmation' or am I going to find that like...you think your arguments are good?

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Yeah but what about that claim confirms Cook as mafia, what's the extra element that I'm missing? Because right now I just see two people who cc each other. And if they're confirmed then why did they claim into auto-elimination for themselves?

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So why did Luca claim that they were confirmed generally?

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VOTE: Luca Blight

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He said that Cook is 'confirmed' but Cook isn't 'confirmed' so he lied and I just eliminate liars. Dw no one's gonna agree with me it'll be Cook who gets eliminated today.

[Trendall]

Yeah if that's what they were going for they could have said 'Cook is confirmed from my point of view' and then I'd eliminate them anyway for stating the obvious.

[Trendall]

It would be stupid to immediately CC that here as scum, it makes no sense.

What about a situation where it is setup B3, last night mafia rolecop identified the tracker. Today it wouldn't seem too stupid to me to sacrifice one mafia to make sure that the doctor gets eliminated now and the tracker gets killed tonight.

And also when people say things like that, you have to wonder why if it

would

be so stupid to CC there, then why do mafia never employ that as a strategy? No one would suspect them.

[Trendall]

Apparently a lot of people are of the opinion that I'm the type of person who if they drew mafia, their strategy would just be to sit and try and convince the town really blatantly that their partner is town. Which is a fair assumption but happens to not be right. Like this always happens, 'Trendall's defending this guy so they both must be partners together'.

[Trendall]

Would you want the tracker to claim?

They can do what they like I don't mind

[Trendall]

'Doom myself to elimination' is again a disingenuous wording here. It's perfectly legitimate for a mafia member to sacrifice themselves in order to put the team overall in a better position. Similar to how sacrificing a piece in chess is not necessarily the boneheaded move that it looks like.

[Trendall]

If your win condition was 'stay alive as long as you can' then saying 'doom myself to elimination' would make sense, but it isn't.

[Trendall]

Yeah I tend to agree

[Trendall]

It's not about what position it puts

you

in because as I said, the game isn't 'who can survive the longest'. For example if my hypothetical were the case, then this game goes down to I think three players and if you're confident in your partner (or confident in 'Trendall will get it wrong' or 'town will eliminate Trendall' or whatever) then that's like, obviously a really good position to be in for u.

[Trendall]

I considered that you claimed very fast and I considered as well that if you are mafia then mafia no killed night one which I need to think about.

[Trendall]

'Obvious'. 'Literally'. 'Clueless'. This is the language of somebody who is full of shit and deep down knows it.

[Trendall]

So it's like, you gotta weigh everything up y'know?

[Trendall]

(to be clear, they are confirmed town)

I just don't get this

[Trendall]

when they could've killed the towniest

Is this how you approach it when you're playing a mafia role though? Like it gets to night one and you think 'okay let's figure out who the most towny player is so we can eliminate them'? Cause I'm not the same, I'd look to eliminate the person who I think is most likely to be pr.

[Trendall]

What do you think about this, Trendall?

Classic I'm gonna have to unvote it's back to neck and neck.

UNVOTE:

[Trendall]

Well actually no it's not neck and neck, because Cook lied about Tama being confirmed too.

VOTE: Cook

[Trendall]

Couldn't there be some sort of thing where mafia no killed the second night though?

[Trendall]

Like Luca did when he said 'I'm dying tonight anyway' or whatever it was.

[Trendall]

Thought that was an odd reason to join a community lol

[Trendall]

Nice

[Trendall]

VOTE: Lunar Martian

[Trendall]

The scum team did very well. I realised that I didn't think anyone was the mafia throughout this game and the only places where I said my suspicion was were hypothetical scenarios.

I'm pretty much the same really, my vague impression was that Fredrick A Campbell and Tama the Egg Cracker were town, and otherwise had nothing. Apart from Mini was basically null on everyone all game.