Newbie 2066: Gelato 2 -- End!

[Rockhopper]

Omgus! VOTE: Clasko

[Rockhopper]

Hoi ppl
What’s your favorite gelato flavor?

Probably chocolate

Chocolate's the best (:
Lez clear each other for the rest of the game?

[Rockhopper]

Rqs:

1. What is your mafia experience?

2. Are you mafia, or town?

3. Favorite gelato flavor?

> Low
> Town
> Chocolate

[Rockhopper]

Hello all, sure is nice when you roll PR huh? Who shall I check on tonight, I wonder

VOTE: sang froi
Works better as PR bait imo

[Rockhopper]

VOTE: rockhopper

This wasn't random? Wanna elaborate?

[Rockhopper]

Not liking your reaction to the wagon tbh

[Rockhopper]

No, 32 was majorly scummy

Whats wrong with my reaction to my wagon?

Your reads that followed felt panicky and manufactured

[Rockhopper]

Do you seriously think a (supposedly) experienced player like sang would just claim pr as scum knowing full well it will get everyone's attention?

That's just wifom. He wouldn't really worry if he's experienced.

[Rockhopper]

No, 32 was majorly scummy

Whats wrong with my reaction to my wagon?

Your reads that followed felt panicky and manufactured

why

This is a meaningless thing to say by itself, substantiate your points

Well, firstly I think your read about there being 1 scum for sure in {me, Jumble} is manufactured because the "PR bait" arg wasn't all that bad. It seems equivalent to just throwing shade at a random pair of players even though there's a better(>50%) chance that neither are scum from town!you's perspective, which is scummy because that's something the mafia would do to appear towny. Secondly, your paranoia with those chances doesn't add up with your three unsubstantiated townreads. Vax, worst of all.

[Rockhopper]

That being said, there's defo one scum in {Roden, sand} :p

[Rockhopper]

Do you seriously think a (supposedly) experienced player like sang would just claim pr as scum knowing full well it will get everyone's attention?

That's just wifom. He wouldn't really worry if he's experienced.

Not totally wrong, but off-base. If I’m scum... yeah maybe i decide to do some wifom PR bait shit but there’s always at least a couple of town who will read things at the most surface level and think “oh, yeah, that must be scum! They’re PR hunting!” Which is not necessarily problematic for me as scum, but it does draw attention that I just don’t need, and the risk of some towny deciding this is OMG THE MOST SCUMMY THING EVER and having them tunnel me.

Besides which, I don’t really need to do this to PR hunt if I’m scum because, as you noted yourself, I have experience. So there’s a decent amount of downside and no significant upside that I can’t get in other ways. So why does it make sense for me as scum?

This post is super scummy.

[Rockhopper]

Why exactly did you decide to enter like that?

[Rockhopper]

Why exactly did you decide to enter like that?

This question alone gives me newbie town vibes. But at the same time, it conflicts with your earlier posts.

My only guess is that they were checking for reactions. That's why they're scum reading you and Jumble.

No, I asked because he's aware that there's always at least a couple of town who would read at the most surface level. I don't think the wagon with me/Jumble warrants a strong reaction with that kind of uncertainty, especially in a newbie game. That entrance does work better as PR bait because newbie PR reactions are much more noticeable, meaning there can be a significant amount of upside. The truth of his reasoning for why the downside outweighs the upside contradicts itself, leaving just a plain anti-town entrance, justifying the wagon on him.

It's more likely a part of his scum agenda because he buries wifom with more wifom while tunneling down on me/Jumbo for being

surface level

.
Idk why this kind of play would come from experienced town.

[Rockhopper]

I think scum is spooked and don't want to declare any allegiances by putting either of you within hamner range.

Wait, you think neither one of us is scum?

[Rockhopper]

Not sure why sang is so high in some of your reads lists, maybe I'm wrong :/

[Rockhopper]

I don't see it but I should prolly move elsewhere for a while
VOTE: Vaxkiller

[Rockhopper]

Not a fan of him trynna start a wagon on GIF instead of commenting on the gamestate. And His questions feel kinda pointless, something scum would do to appear active.

[Rockhopper]

Do you ever have one of those moments where you regret literally every post you've made? Yeah that just happened to me

Take a look at any one of my 496 posts for consolation :p

[Rockhopper]

You're kinda in the hot seat atm and should be affirming how town you are, not deflecting onto another player.

I did defend my reasoning if that's what you mean.

[Rockhopper]

You're kinda in the hot seat atm and should be affirming how town you are, not deflecting onto another player.

I did defend my reasoning if that's what you mean.

I understand your reasoning for the vote, but you essentially just gave up on your scum read of Sang and tried to put attention on someone else. You're not giving us any reason to think that

you're

town though.

I still think sang's scum, but it's better to scumhunt outside rather than tunnel especially when he's pretty much consensus town, don't you agree?

And isn't my defense enough reason? Idk what you're expecting.

[Rockhopper]

Pagetop

[Rockhopper]

What kind of scum strongly townreads 5 newbies like that lol
GIF's town prolly.

[Rockhopper]

VOTE: Clasko

Why Clasko and what do you think of Roden's townread on him?

[Rockhopper]

What kind of scum strongly townreads 5 newbies like that lol
GIF's town prolly.

Seems like a good plan to me. You TR a bunch of people and slip the other scum in there discretely. Then you can backtrack on a few reads and everyone will probably be fine with it because they'll assume that you were overconfident or something. If he is scum I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled the names out of a hat.

Hmm, guess it depends on how good his reasoning will be if he backtracks. But he can be town for now because why risk looking bad when voicing suspicion is more than enough to let him coast by 6 pages in, right? His scumpool seems fine to me on a second read so I doubt it's some some big brain play as scum.

[Rockhopper]

VOTE: Clasko

Why Clasko and what do you think of Roden's townread on him?

Shrug. What does rodens townread matter on him?

I mean, Roden stated that their reads/thought processes matched, so I was wondering why you would townread one of them and vote the other.

[Rockhopper]

Small reads list, which I'll elaborate on later as I have to leave for a couple of hours.

Roden
Sang

=====
T3
Rock
Vax/Guy
Johnny
=====

Jumble

Then where's your vote at

[Rockhopper]

Okay, I intend to keep my vote on Rock (non-RVS now). He's probably neutral for me - he hasn't done anything particularly AI, but if he flips red, then me, Sang & T3 will most likely flip green which helps for the following day phases.

Makes sense as a last resort vote but why would you rather sit out the day instead of committing to/pushing your scumreads?

[Rockhopper]

VOTE: Clasko

Why Clasko and what do you think of Roden's townread on him?

Shrug. What does rodens townread matter on him?

I mean, Roden stated that their reads/thought processes matched, so I was wondering why you would townread one of them and vote the other.

Cause Roden can be town but wrong.

Wrong about having the same thought process?

[Rockhopper]

@Rockhopper

Do you have a readslist? Could you explain some of the choices?

Jumble

GIF

T3

Johnny
sang

Roden:

Spoiler:

Personal read. My wagon gained too much traction too quickly with no resistance, so I'm fairly certain there was scum on it. I don't like how he insisted on pushing it till the end without responding to my defense/reasoning even though the case was surface level af ("rock scum cus he vote sang for being anti-town, also joke pocket sus"). I don't like how "tried to wagon Clasko" was part of his case since that was obviously rvs. I also don't like how he wanted to heavily reevaluate Jumble in case I flipped town, since that sounds like lining up miselims (fmpov mostly). Vaxkiller's jump from null to highest scumread simply from GIF stating their iso sucked gives him good partner equity since bussing is kinda the meta for scum rn and Vaxkiller's reluctance to respond properly about Radon/Clask adds to this. All of Radon's reads apart from the metaread on T3 seem surface level/consensus, so there isn't much reason for me to TR him.

Vaxkiller

Clasko

Gun to head solve: Roden, Vaxk

[Rockhopper]

@Rockhopper

Do you have a readslist? Could you explain some of the choices?

Jumble

GIF

T3

Johnny
sang

Roden:

Spoiler:

Personal read. My wagon gained too much traction too quickly with no resistance, so I'm fairly certain there was scum on it. I don't like how he insisted on pushing it till the end without responding to my defense/reasoning even though the case was surface level af ("rock scum cus he vote sang for being anti-town, also joke pocket sus"). I don't like how "tried to wagon Clasko" was part of his case since that was obviously rvs. I also don't like how he wanted to heavily reevaluate Jumble in case I flipped town, since that sounds like lining up miselims (fmpov mostly). Vaxkiller's jump from null to highest scumread simply from GIF stating their iso sucked gives him good partner equity since bussing is kinda the meta for scum rn and Vaxkiller's reluctance to respond properly about Radon/Clask adds to this. All of Radon's reads apart from the metaread on T3 seem surface level/consensus, so there isn't much reason for me to TR him.

Vaxkiller

Clasko

Gun to head solve: Roden, Vaxk

Well, I was waiting until you'd try to make a case against me but uh, I wasn't expecting this. I don't really know how to address a Vax/me pairing because I honestly don't know how you came to that conclusion. If you want to invest in this case Day 2 then I'd be more than fine to meet you on that. I can only guess you're claiming it because my assumed hero solve at this point would probably be Vax/you (it actually isn't) and you want the distancing points. Because I honestly believe you'd have a more compelling case pairing me up with literally anyone else.

There's no reason for scum!Vax to be so laid back unless his partner is fairly (pro)active. And like I said, your insistence on eliminating me based on bad reasoning and your weird hop on Vaxk make you seem like the most likely choice for his partner. Why would I assume that when you literally say the opposite in 242

Gonna address your one and only personal read:

-Your wagon didn't "gain too much traction without resistance." It was in counter to Sang's, and both your wagons died around the same time. Mainly because I took my vote off of you

twice

and acknowledged I was possibly tunneling. Vax notably was voting

with

you against Sang.

Given that I tr Jumble and Vax's vote was possibly rvs, I maintain that there's a good chance scum was on my wagon. Sang's wagon was feeble to begin with, and mine reached E-1 when it died (150)

-I'm not pushing you "till the end", I'm still currently pushing you. And it's weird that you're lying and saying I haven't responded to your defense or reasoning when I explicitly had to make a post asking you to do exactly that. A good portion of my ISO is just me responding to you and making reads that involve you. I don't know how you can claim that I've in any way ignored you without thinking that sounds even a little bit scummy to lie about. It's so easy to go back and fact check my dude.
-The case wasn't surface level, and those weren't the only things I or multiple other people brought up. You had four votes on you and several people laying out their reads and reasonings for you, but all you can remember is post 160?

Till the end of Day 1, like you said. And what did I lie about? You maintained your scumread on me and never commented on what I said in 110.
As far as I can tell, the reasons were: 1) that I was opportunistic, which is a weird buzzword to throw around because you could say the same for any vote anybody makes even if it came from a town perspective (which is the case here), 2) that my vote was based on flimsy reasoning, which I already disagreed with in 110, 3) that the joke about clearing each other for having the same tastes didn't read right, to which I say I'm awkward in general, and 4) that it's scummy to think an experienced scum player would blatantly post PR bait like that, which kinda contradicts itself.

-The potential Jumble reevaluation is less likely now to be fair, since I feel like I've got a better read on him now than I did a few days ago. But I'll give you that, I can understand why you think it looks like a Day 2 miselim set up, it wasn't meant to be though.

-Vax isn't my highest scum read, he's about tied with you. You and GIF both go up to a town lean though if Vax flips red. The reason I put my vote on Vax has a lot more to do with than them having a shitty ISO, and this is something I've already stated several times. Why do you keep lying about very basic things that take five minutes to fact check?

-Why would I bus Vax if GIF gave three options for his scum read? In fact, why do I not just jump on GIF since nobody trusted him and he already had two votes? Nobody had jumped on any of his reads yet, and I was only the second vote on Vax. I voted with you here in fact. What makes even less sense is that I'm the one who pushed the most for GIF to explain his reads! Are you saying I saw a shady looking town player scum read my partner with no explanation, practically begged him to explain his reads when he kept saying no, then unnecessarily bussed my partner? I just don't understand how this makes sense to you.

Whatever your reasons maybe, the fact that Vax did shift to being your scumread after GIF's statement doesn't sit well with me. You said it yourself that it was hard to discern scum!Vax's partner which is all the more incentive for you to bus at first chance, assuming you are his partner. And GIF was bound to explain his reads anyway (5 day solve or whatever), regardless of whether it was you or anyone else who would push him to do so. As for why Vax given the 2 other options? You expressed a strong townread on Clasko already and Johnny is yet to post. GIF's reasoning was good enough to keep him alive for today, and pushing him before wouldn't have made any sense.

[Rockhopper]

And GIF was bound to explain his reads anyway (5 day solve or whatever)

tbh I wasn't gonna until I remembered that this is a newbie game and thus I should play more constructively

Point being ppl were gonna push even if he didn't.

[Rockhopper]

I don't have any experience of scum!GIF but I think it's unlikely that his main game plan involves hardbussing his buddy on D1 so if vax!scum assuming GiF!clear is probably safe

other than that there's too many assumptions being made around wagons, looking specifically at you here @rock

like there may have been scum on your wagon, but equally a town wagon hitting E-1 is not uncommon and if you get too locked onto that assumption it can really fuck you up. it's safer normally in a larger game where wagons have a lot more people on, but 4 town just agreeing on something (especially when it's being pushed ~fairly hard) isn't so odd

that's not to say there can't be scum on it, but like, this shouldn't be the primary reason for it if you end up thinking any of me/roden/clasko/T3 are scum

In a vacuum, sure. But my trs on GIF/Jumble make me wanna take those odds.

[Rockhopper]

-Why is Sang null on your reads list now? You said multiple times that you believed they were scum, but now you've dropped that for a Vax/Roden pairing? What's the thought process behind this, because that wasn't gradual at all.

You ping me as scummy harder right now and I don't think a sang/you pairing is likely. I don't think both scum hop on my wagon like that and your interactions don't seem S/S

[Rockhopper]

Spoiler:

Well, I was waiting until you'd try to make a case against me but uh, I wasn't expecting this. I don't really know how to address a Vax/me pairing because I honestly don't know how you came to that conclusion. If you want to invest in this case Day 2 then I'd be more than fine to meet you on that. I can only guess you're claiming it because my assumed hero solve at this point would probably be Vax/you (it actually isn't) and you want the distancing points. Because I honestly believe you'd have a more compelling case pairing me up with literally anyone else.

There's no reason for scum!Vax to be so laid back unless his partner is fairly (pro)active. And like I said, your insistence on eliminating me based on bad reasoning and your weird hop on Vaxk make you seem like the most likely choice for his partner. Why would I assume that when you literally say the opposite in 242

I'm not sure what post 242 is supposed to signify. I don't understand the jump from "Vax is laidback" to "their partner has to be you because you're active" either. What makes my reasoning bad over anyone else who scum read you? Why is it only specifically my reads on you that ping you, even though you scum read Sang and already believe Vax will flip red? Doesn't that mean not only were you completely wrong on Sang, you were also totally fine with that?

Given that I tr Jumble and Vax's vote was possibly rvs, I maintain that there's a good chance scum was on my wagon. Sang's wagon was feeble to begin with, and mine reached E-1 when it died (150)

You were getting wagoned because you made multiple scummy posts. Neither Vax or I even orchestrated your wagon, so I don't know how this somehow points to us being a scum pair?

Till the end of Day 1, like you said. And what did I lie about? You maintained your scumread on me and never commented on what I said in 110.
As far as I can tell, the reasons were: 1) that I was opportunistic, which is a weird buzzword to throw around because you could say the same for any vote anybody makes even if it came from a town perspective (which is the case here), 2) that my vote was based on flimsy reasoning, which I already disagreed with in 110, 3) that the joke about clearing each other for having the same tastes didn't read right, to which I say I'm awkward in general, and 4) that it's scummy to think an experienced scum player would blatantly post PR bait like that, which kinda contradicts itself.

What is post 110 supposed to signify...? I'm genuinely confused here. I made a guess about why Sang made their entrance the way they did, which you responded to, and that seemed to be it. I even responded to your original question in that post, so how am I ignoring you? Because I didn't comment on your commentary that wasn't even about me? Or is it because I continued to scum read you even after you tried to defend yourself? Because uh, I'm not the only one scum reading you for the things you listed.

It really just sounds like you're singling me out and scum reading me for doing the exact same thing five other people did. That really doesn't look good.

Whatever your reasons maybe, the fact that Vax did shift to being your scumread after GIF's statement doesn't sit well with me. You said it yourself that it was hard to discern scum!Vax's partner which is all the more incentive for you to bus at first chance, assuming you are his partner. And GIF was bound to explain his reads anyway (5 day solve or whatever), regardless of whether it was you or anyone else who would push him to do so. As for why Vax given the 2 other options? You expressed a strong townread on Clasko already and Johnny is yet to post. GIF's reasoning was good enough to keep him alive for today, and pushing him before wouldn't have made any sense.

The amount of mental gymnastics you have to perform to justify me being scum buddies with Vax is frustrating me right now. None of this sounds like it's being said in good faith. You already sound like you know Vax will flip red, and even I'm not sure of that since it's a toss up between you and Vax for me as it is.

I'm gonna say this one more time because I

really

feel like you don't understand what you're saying here.

For me to be scum buddies with Vax, I'd have to purposely and knowingly throw the game by bussing my partner when not only did they not have a wagon started on them yet, they didn't even have an actual

case

against them yet. I asked GIF to make his case. I added my own case then voted for Vax. And you're claiming I did all this while playing the active scum to their passive scum in order to provide cover for them, only to bus them for literally no reason with zero pressure.

How, in any way, does this win me the game if I'm scum buddies with Vax?

I don't get how it's too far fetched to think you were bussing there? I mean there was never any guarantee for his elimination, meaning you could've just done it to gain distancing points. Ignoring scum bussing scum!Vax all together, I really can't think of another choice for his partner. Leaving the game up to any of those outside the wagon could be too risky for scum!him.

I'm not scumreading you primarily because of Vax, but my sr on him is definitely a contributing factor. I simply don't like how you insisted on limming me and the reasons you used to push the case. It's what I expect scum to do - pursue some lhf whose wagon can easily gain traction while not really scumhunting elsewhere.

[Rockhopper]

And GIF was bound to explain his reads anyway (5 day solve or whatever)

tbh I wasn't gonna until I remembered that this is a newbie game and thus I should play more constructively

Point being ppl were gonna push even if he didn't.

I've been one of like three people trying to push for more reads in a nine player game. I don't get why I do this as scum in what was at the time a low activity slow game. Can you explain why scum sees little gameplay going on but then practically begs for people to post more?

To appear active for town points, maybe?

[Rockhopper]

Rock I can't see how there's even a sliver of a chance that you're town now. I gave you a fully detailed explanation and rebuttal with multiple questions, and you basically ignored all of it to just repeat yourself again and push a narrative against me that makes no logical sense. I know I tunneled you but I at least kept hitting the breaks and tried to see how you could be town. Your case against me isn't even a tunnel at this point, you're just trying to brute force suspicion on me without even trying to make it look like it makes sense.

If you're actually town, there's just no way for me to believe it now because of how often you keep arguing in poor faith. Singling me out for doing the exact same things four other people did, and dropping Sang from your scum list even though you were totally convinced they're scum, ultimately just doesn't look good. If you're town, you're 100% throwing this game.

Didn't have the time/energy.

I feel like I've explained my thougt process well enough to answer your questions tho.
Your reasons/persistence stood out. Sang's null cus I don't think you guys are partners.

[Rockhopper]

Rock, I assume you're staying on Vax since they're part of your hero read. How does GIF's town read affect this?

Still my hero solve but I'm fine with voting either tbh

[Rockhopper]

Actually

Clasko

[Rockhopper]

VOTE: Clasko

[Rockhopper]

I think I have a pretty strong towncase on GIF but I'll try explaining it tomorrow

[Rockhopper]

You keep going back to my reasons and persistence, but continue to ignore the fact four other people are doing the exact same thing that I'm doing. Why are you only focused on me but continue to ignore everyone else even when they continue to shade you? T3 just voted for you and you didn't even react. Sang and Jumble still scum read you and you couldn't seem to care less. You're only just now voting for Clasko after ignoring all game, and it looks like you're only doing it because I don't want to vote for him.

T3 and Jumble I townread and think their suspicions are genuine.
Also forgot about T3's votes.

@T3:

why GIF when you thought he was town in 265?

You seem more likely to flip red compared to sang.
Because apart from his initial sr on me, his reads feel logical and towny.

Voting Clasko rn cus I realized that Vax's play has a lot more reason to come from town than scuum.

Rock, I assume you're staying on Vax since they're part of your hero read. How does GIF's town read affect this?

Still my hero solve but I'm fine with voting either tbh

So you're scum reading four people but not voting for any of them? Or even trying to get a push going on them?

And you're wondering why I think you're scummy??

I scumread Clasko, Vax and you.
Vax to a lesser extent now tho.

[Rockhopper]

I think he is scum.

Why?

[Rockhopper]

v

[Rockhopper]

VOTE: Johnny
E-1

[Rockhopper]

So Roden, about that hammer...

I read NotAJumbleOfNumbers. This is town.
T3 I started to read, I don't read as scum yet.

This page and last I don't favour GIF and Roden.
Roden less though.

Hi, VFP!

What does your name stand for?
Very Frequent Poster?
Very Friendly Person?

[Rockhopper]

What I want to know is why Sang got NK'd over GIF. Because I genuinely think scum made a mistake here if they think they can frame GIF for a wrong elim. Pretty sure he bread crumbled why earlier and scum didn't catch it.

Are you still convinced that GIF is town?

[Rockhopper]

sang froid died last night. He was a

Vanilla Townie

Pretty sure the scumteam is 2x newbies by this kill.

+ ^

It's the perfect move if both scum exist in {Roden, Jumble, T3}

Scum!GIF's read on my slot in 383 is highly negative wincon since I've expressed a strong townread on him prior to this, and my flip will only bring him more unwanted attention.
Sang's death along with Clasko's rep out is + town for the slot (I think) because apart from GIF's scumreads, his slot if scum was in a better than average position with the tracker's elim.

Jumble's read on Roden in 380 makes me believe that exact combination is less likely, since I don't think newbie, self-aware scum place their partners so high in fear of giving away too much information.
That coupled with my already existing TR on him points to a solve of {Roden, T3} with T3 being more likely to flip red.

VOTE: T3

[Rockhopper]

I could be wrong about Vaxkiller though, but that's unlikely.
Would love to hear his thoughts on the game.

[Rockhopper]

I doubt that the chances of town pinning him down with the potential WIFOM element outweighs the benefits of removing a threat to your partner.

[Rockhopper]

Called it!

[Rockhopper]

Sorry for replacing out btw.
Thought it wouldn't have been fair to the others had I gone V/LA instead.

gg

[Rockhopper]

Top tier scumplay, Roden!