Mewbie 2094 -- GAME OVER

[syugar]

And then, you are arguing this, when that is literally the back bone of the case made here:

He said it wasn't a townie thought process that I was thinking about the way that the scum team might be working together, here is a partner read built around what I perceived to be the scum plan at the time.

Spoiler:

To me, option 1 looks like a scum team that has some semblance of a plan. Option 2 looks like a scum team that is all pulling in completely opposite directions.

I don't have a ton of experience with Titus, but from what I have seen, I feel like she would have had some semblance of a plan.

I would go as far as to say that there is already evidence this game that Titus was trying to coordinate plans in the scum chat, when you look at Day 0 and see Moon Cancer, Day 0, jumping on to the Saber 4 Master campaign when Titus thought she could win the master. Then Moon doing a full 180, and calling Saber scum once Titus realized she had lost the master (and that she would probably need to bus if she wanted to regain a footing in the game)

---------------

So yeah, foreigner being scum makes more sense to me.

I would no longer say that scum!Avenger is impossible, but would need to see more evidence for it -- such as foreigner flipping town in order to give me any evidence that a counter wagon was being made by the scum team

[/spoiler]

It's difficult to tell, because I don't understand what you're saying in that post. It looks like you're playing Secret Hitler or something, not mafia. Do you have a different example that wouldn't require me reading a game for 10 to 20 minutes?

[syugar]

I legitimately don't understand what I'm supposed to be seeing there, after rereading what you just posted three times. These things are unrelated to the point of feeling schizophrenic.

I am also feeling like we are talking different languages.

No, it's more the fact that you didn't make any sense in 1364. I'm confident you're holding the L on that one.

[syugar]

I think I am just gonna walk away for the night. Otherwise I feel like I am just gonna flood this thread to the point of it being unreadable

Okay, see you later

[syugar]

If you can't read these two back to back, and see that this is just one of the ways that I think about games semetimes, I don't know what to tell you.

I'm gonna walk away now and let other people weigh in

I'm open to believing that (remember, I unvoted you and voted for Bella), but what you quoted doesn't do a good job on convincing me because I just don't understand and don't see the similarities. You're talking about the scum team possibly teaming up to go for something called Blade Master or something, which I don't know what the fuck it is and may be super important, and comparing it to this overextrapolated case based on the idea of a massclaim which was ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme of the game. Even if I were to buy that the complexity of the catboi case were typical of your towngame, it doesn't really reassure me on how worryingly different the depth of your reads are here, to the point where it feels like you're underanalyzing and not super trying to empathize with all of the possible angles from everyone else and going the extra mile for catboi for reasons I don't get. I don't even think you have considered the idea that I may be town here during our entire conversation in the last few hours.

[syugar]

Like, what are your thoughts on Bella? The reasons you have stated today for townreading her have been pretty light, to my understanding, it you don't seem worried about it at all, even though when I flip town here you have catboi staring you down who is pretty set on eliminating you. ELO doesn't look good, it looks like you'd have no agency. What's your contingency if Bella is scum? Why aren't you asking her any questions or trying to sus her out? Are you just 100% confident that it's me?

[syugar]

Also, if you townread catboi, who I've played with for many, many years and has cultivated a townread on me, why haven't you asked him questions about why he townreads me to try and sponge him and increase your accuracy here?

[syugar]

I don't even think you have considered the idea that I may be town here during our entire conversation in the last few hours.

In the last few hours, I probably haven't.

From the way you jumped on my wagon following catboi, the arguements you have made, the 180 to voting bella, to a 180 back to casing me has all screamed scum to me and that is all that I have been seeing.

That bothers me, because I have been trying to explain my thought process all day, and it doesn't look like you're interested in the other aisle. I have talked and collaborated with you and admitted when I am wrong (not as first, because I was bullheaded, but I came around) and have been open to communicating and you have completely shut me out. News flash here, if we're both town and you manage to convince jpeg to elim me today, it's highly probable we're going to lose this game. You are so consumed by this singular thought that you have this solved, it's scary. That's probably the biggest thing that is making me /want/ to vote for you now. I don't feel like you have enough consideration for the endgame of a really hard match. I don't think I have been so scummy today as to have been outed to that degree.

Because he unvoted me, and voiced suspicion on you - so it seemed like he was unsure of his own read there, and so I was not expecting a lot of insight from him on the topic

That makes sense when we're reading around the first half of the day, so it isn't unbelievable. But now, 1236:

VOTE: lukewarm

If syugar's scum after that last page, I'm snowed.

fwiw my posting today has less to do with indecision/paralysis and more an inability to focus at all to form coherent thoughts (too easily distractible). I had points I wanted to make against luke, was slightly weirded out by syugar's posting at the start of the phase (because the thought of deflated scum had entered my head) and so backed off, wanted to take time to consider things being said before making a move.

Looks pretty emphatic. I am not sure why it didn't make you curious.

And yeah, this is a good time to sleep on everything. See you tomorrow.

[syugar]

Wow man, I am spent after that. lmao

I'm awake again and hovering the thread for any questions

[syugar]

Okay, I've been trying to read posts only to realise I haven't actually processed any of the words, im exhausted right now. I know I haven't contributed much after being cleared. I have a feeling Syugar is town. He keeps saying he's gonna leave and then coming back. I know there's a thing where its assumed mafia care more about winning and might be more likely to do this but it feels not like that.

Sorry, I know it's a lot for a newbie game. I didn't expect the gamestate to end up this weird.

[syugar]

Where are you at with your other reads, though?

[syugar]

I'll be around for questions, but not feeling solving atm.

I don't really know where to go. Syugar's change in tone and approach with me towards the end of our conversation really disarmed me in a way that I am not sure how to feel about.

I don't have any for you but it may be a good time for you to ask catboi about his read on me

I don't want to do it cuz I don't want to seem vain

[syugar]

I don't have any for you but it may be a good time for you to ask catboi about his read on me

I don't want to do it cuz I don't want to seem vain

@catboi

will you explain your syugar read?

in a general sense the panicked flail and rapid swinging about is a lot more of how I expect town to act in these situations

well that was unsatisfying lol

[syugar]

I'm waiting for what Bella says next before I cast a vote here

[syugar]

voting bella today if she's town is unimaginable hell for me

Why

[syugar]

P-edit I'd love syugar and catboi to give slightly more thoughts on each other

There's nothing left for my poasition other than that I believe that slot os town

[syugar]

Where are you at with your other reads, though?

Idk how I feel about 'I know I will convince Catboi I am town because of how much we have played with each other.' and then when Catboi arrives they give a response that isnt even specific to you

He said he was snowed if I were scum so I also expected more than that so I agree with u there

As we currently stand I lean towards voting Luke until I see his posts about his reevaluation (I get the impression he was stalling yesterday as he didn't know what to do), but I am reasonably confident we can win in all 4 worlds from eliminating either Bella or Luke despite whatever configuration of those two is scum so my preference for total accuracy today isn't as important as us being on the same page with our votes (and after this entire game I doubt the accuracy of my sr regardless)

Gun to my head though Bella's purer with the current content I've seen today (I had a pervasive sense of dread about Luke pushing narratives while talking to me and him stalling on his "tunnel check" doesn't sit right with me) and I honestly have come back around to thinking she townslipped earlier in her first response to me putting Luke at E-1.

Don't think catboi is scumming this game.

TL;DR pretty much fine moving with your instinct even though it isn't my first choice.

[syugar]

The scum in (catboi, syugae, Luke) is playing really well. They are also all slightly hard to read!

Yep. I've been pretty aggressive today but I can't say I'd be angry if I were eliminated here, the game is tough from anyone's PoV.

[syugar]

Pending Luke's final say I'm just ready to vote and see what happens. I think I've made over 100 posts today and posted pretty much everything going on in my mind.

[syugar]

voting bella today if she's town is unimaginable hell for me

Why

Elaborated: I thought you know I'm town so we just win.

[syugar]

@catboi I didn't want to explicitly state and link my accounts publicly and let this be known but I have a pretty polarized town/scum meta when it comes to approaching these situations. My scum game is pretty one-dimensional and focuses on forging pretty ABC and confident progressions that always lead me towards having logical and built-up reasons for every push I make and never running out of these pushes. It hasn't really been a consideration for me in the paat two years to completely chuck outward-appearing progression in favor of acting puzzled, impartial, and unsure, which is a flaw in my game.

You can doublecheck the two long games on the schizo account:

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/34222 Vig10, unfortunately I got banned and force replaced before the game ended bur I more or less always had a narrative and solid PoE I was pushing and had plans to do that into the endgame

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/29956 MCM, soent the entire game building a worldview around one read that I never bothered to reconsider a single time despite many other people using meta and towncases to try and get me off of it.

I generally think I'm too bad at the game to present the fluidity I did today, would be way too self-conscious

Another thing you'll notice in these games is that I spend a large portion if the game distancing or bussing. In MCM I spam quoted and interacted with Alexa for the entire game and bussed transcend d1. In Vig10 I repeatedly conversed with Andrew and eventually bussed him extremely early. The way I interacted with GM this game was largely ignoring her because she seemed like she couldn't be scum just associatively based on team reads in relation to my preferred votes (worst, jpeg) which is why I just didnt interact with and ignored her. It is way more often I choose to ignore people I just think have to be town than I choose to ignore my partners (practically unheard of due to self-conscious) so GM and I mostly ignoring eachother would actually meta spew me as town here

Can we PoE and win this yet?

[syugar]

^ That's what I was on about d1 this game when I said I was polarized but it isn't possible to see d1

[syugar]

People would probably just say that I'm not polar, although I am polar but in different ways than you'd see in RVS or on day 1

Me from d1. I always had this in my back pocket and wanted to wait til tomorrow in order to avoid influencing the NK since I believe I have a good enough read on you to carry elo but today is too close unfortunately.

Unless you guys think I planned this from post 344 - I am not that good.

[syugar]

@Cat.Jpeg if I were to die at night assume catboi is town and it was some sort of desperation play. Sorry if I am wrong on that read and threw the match, but I have deja vu like I've seen this all before. It isn't to underestimate his scum game but there's subtle stuff being done that doesn't look planned. I'll learn something if he's the scum.

[syugar]

I'm offline til tomorrow as I want to do other things today

Hopefully Luke has posted his reevaluation by then

[syugar]

As we currently stand I lean towards voting Luke until I see his posts about his reevaluation (I get the impression he was stalling yesterday as he didn't know what to do),

Where?
Why?

You came to the thread yesterday and didn't do anything due to fatigue, could be a coincidence of course but this is the first time it's happened isn't it?

[syugar]

Fuck it, I'll make the case

Nice, this will be good

[syugar]

@Cat.Jpeg

What do you think about this?

You know if I was maf I could hammer here and win??

Luckily cat is clear and Luke won't self vote but jfc.

No, wait, that isn't how numbers work! But still, that vote feels Hella Risky

[syugar]

This game is too hard

I think it's hard because you're holding onto a scumread on me that's becoming more and more untenable as the day progresses

[syugar]

But it's interesting because as I become closer and closer to trying to towncore with catboi and solve the game by PoE it makes scum REALLY have to get me elimmed today

[syugar]

This game is too hard

I think it's hard because you're holding onto a scumread on me that's becoming more and more untenable as the day progresses

You say this after I just unvoted you....

Also, this is dumb. I could tunnel and case you all day if that is all that I wanted.

Oh, I assumed you were making a case on me right now

[syugar]

If that's not the case, I think this game is really easy from your PoV cause you voting Bella instead of me would win us the game in every variation

[syugar]

As we currently stand I lean towards voting Luke until I see his posts about his reevaluation (I get the impression he was stalling yesterday as he didn't know what to do),

Where?
Why?

You came to the thread yesterday and didn't do anything due to fatigue, could be a coincidence of course but this is the first time it's happened isn't it?

I mean, it wasn't a "coincidence"

I spent most of the other day 100,000% sure that you were scum, and was felt like I was going to battle to win the game. Righteous War and all that.

And then, suddenly the way that you engaged with me, deflated that energy. I because less sure, and concerned that I was tunneled.

And I was literally waiting for people to weigh in on our discussion to help me figure out if that was the case, and I never really got that.

Uh, yeah I dunno, you have catboi townreading me and Cat.Jpeg suspecting Bella over anyone else, and Bella saying that my interactions with you looked better than yours with me so I feel like you've already got your answer

[syugar]

Wow. Okay I'll read and ponder it I guess

[syugar]

Does this mean you pulled up a townread after reading Bella's iso?

[syugar]

I also did not like this

and independent on my townread on catboi, catboi/cat.jpeg makes more sense than any other team right now. I don't understand why jpeg just votes gm like that. It will be autoloss if they are partners. That's why I am freaked out.

if you are town, this is going to be a lesson in the hazards of trying to find the exact team all at once rather than simply voting whoever's scummiest.

Of course, if I'm wrong on cat.jpeg and they get voted out today, that's on me but I don't mind being jailed in that scenario.

The issue, is that catboi is not championing this elim.

On the contrary, he has already said that he wants goodmorning in 1012, and stated town pings in 1082.

Stating that he would look bad on a jpeg elim here, feels counter-intuitive to the thought process of a townie who prefers a GM elim. However, it would be a legitimate concern to a gm scum partner who is hoping for a jpeg elim.

I don't really understand this point very well, I get the others

[syugar]

What have you disliked about Bella?

[syugar]

What have you disliked about Bella?

The main thing that made me worried was their positioning around the elim today.

Like, they walked into the day saying that catboi was scummy, and then they seemed to slide into the idea that it can never be catboi too easily I guess? Its hard to see why that switch happened, but if she were scum it could actually be just because you and I both put a stake in the ground that we were both never considering scum!catboi this day phase - so arguing for a catboi elim would have been a fight not worth fighting

Yeah I felt this same level of ambivalence but aside from that I also couldn't really find many material concerns but her attitude today and I believe that she legitimately townslipped and thought she could have ended the game

[syugar]

She thought that your arguments were better then mine, and a big part of our argument was whether that idea even made any sense for us to be thinking about.

Uh

My bad, didn't even spot check that she wasn't just making vague statements, it completely slipped my mind

@Bellaphant what specifically did you dislike from Luke's arguments two days ago/Liked from mine?

[syugar]

I have a fair response to that but it's better if she answers that for herself, I'm going to stop posting and make some air because I more or less understand your points

I may have to delay my vote until the last 6 hours of the day

[syugar]

Oh yeah, fwiw though fmpov I didn't find your case on catboi convincing and I still think the interactions you initially townread him for look really good

[syugar]

But I'll at least think more about it tonight and reread him since you went through the effort

[syugar]

If he is town, and wants a different elim, and is making mild town points on jpeg -- where would the guilt over a miselim on jpeg come from?

I saw it more as guilt over him defending Cat.Jpeg in the world where she were scum, which is the opposite of your interpretation, I don't think you've got it right

And that makes sense because he'd be a fine partner candidate for her

[syugar]

If he is town, and wants a different elim, and is making mild town points on jpeg -- where would the guilt over a miselim on jpeg come from?

I saw it more as guilt over him defending Cat.Jpeg in the world where she were scum, which is the opposite of your interpretation, I don't think you've got it right

And that makes sense because he'd be a fine partner candidate for her

I just looked back at it, and the timing of it again. And I think that you are right, and I read it wrong there.

This isn't the first time I've had issues with your extratextual reads seeming posthoc (analysis serves the conclusion) but it may just be a playstyle think idk at this point

[syugar]

I spent like 4 straight hours staring at this stupid game trying my best to figure it the fuck out. And what do I get? Syugar just completely dismissing everything I have to say for the millionth time, and you here shouting at me and at least one of you is fucking town this game.

And I don't even get to feel great like I even solved anything, because I can't manage to town read literally anyone here because everyone is actually the scummiest people ever.

Basically, every iso I open, I feel like I have found scum.

I didn't dismiss everything you said, but fmpov your case in catboi really wasn't that great and I already have a very strong townread on him.

I'm still thinking about it but I think it misrepresents or misunderstands certain game states and intentions I can't brain to vocalize atm

I thought your points about Bella made sense and I'm waiting for her to post a bit

[syugar]

I don't really understand how you find everyone scummy either, that feels disconnected from the experience of everyone else in the game three of them being town at a minimum

[syugar]

"I am not seeing a single post that would preclude catboi from voting jpeg at some point that phase"

I'm also not sure how you think this, at the top of my head 1113 was pretty emphatic - "stop overanalyzing teams and vote for the easy slam dunk"

You're asking me to believe that catboi was elliptically willing jpeg to be eliminated and I simply don't see it, so the case feels externally motivated or like pushing a square peg through a circular hole

[syugar]

I kinda wanna believe the AtE though, I really do

Just that a lot of things you're posting don't seem in the best faith for solving, and the easiest way to explain a towny making extrapolated and bizarre cases like this is just that everyone else is either town or played so fantastically well that there aren't many valid holes in their game to attack

I at least thought around a quarter to a half of the things you said about me were valid even if I didn't like the rest, but this new case feels keboshed

[syugar]

Okay, well what I think that is if you're town here you should just vote Bella because neither of us have the best odds to beat her in ELO. There isn't really a chance we elim catboi and you'd be throwing the game by giving Bella the f3 hammer if you eliminated me. Catboi's never not voting you here. After all of the arguments that've been dispensed that's the best olive branch I can offer you.

[syugar]

I've got an 85% instinct that you're scum but if you're town, jpeg foses Bella so you've got a moonshot to get out of this. Catboi isn't acum.

[syugar]

I was originally thinking that it was weird how much he has been commenting on his inability to come up with a solution. It felt way more then I have seen in any game. And, then I wondered if it actually came from trying to lean into that Bigger Presence / Smaller Prescence conversation that we had.

The empathetic answer to this concern is that this is literally one of the hardest town games I've played in the last two years. It was out of my comprehension that this gamestate would even exist, and if you really distrust that a towny wouldn't know what to do here I'm not sure how that can be shaken. Freezing close to elo also isn't even uncommon for him, certainly not out of townrange by a long shot. He has confidence and choking issues.

And then, I started reading through his iso in the lens of "what is he doing if scum partnered with GM" and it felt like all those pieces were slotting into place.

I think this is the issue with how you're isoing him. If you're explicitly looking for stuff in that context it's no surprise that you'd pull up spurious theories, so I can somewhat empathize with your conclusion, and that's why I'm only like 85%. I actually am closer to buying the self-meta stuff and all that but if it's really the case that you're town here you should just vote Bella

Then I was thinking about the case that he made against me, and that it was weird that he spent so much time talking about doing isos and rereading, but then his final solution was me, and part of the ammo that he used against me was that I "latched onto" your solve of jpeg+GM, when that simply wasn't true since I had that as a solve before you did. And I questioned if he was really looking at me that closely if he did not catch that.

Realize that he may have been doing exactly what you did in the previous quote; "Hm, let me read with the assumption that Luke is partnered with GM. What makes sense in that context?"

Surely you can believe that if he had a read you found flawed he could have used a similar toxic thought process to the one which caused you to arrive at this weird case as well.

[syugar]

Okay, well what I think that is if you're town here you should just vote Bella because neither of us have the best odds to beat her in ELO. There isn't really a chance we elim catboi and you'd be throwing the game by giving Bella the f3 hammer if you eliminated me. Catboi's never not voting you here. After all of the arguments that've been dispensed that's the best olive branch I can offer you.

Do you see that from my pov, this could be scum you setting yourself up for the win?

I vote Bella, elo is you+me+catboi, and thats that.

That's obvious. It's intentionally manipulative and self-interested, but I'm not going to suggest plays that take into account me being scum, I have mechanical knowledge that I'm not. I've tried to prove that I'm town down to outing my identity on another site and posting self-meta though, I think it's about time you should just be convinced and latch onto my strategy.

[syugar]

VOTE: Bella

This is what I wanted all along, sorry to be so elliptical about it.

[syugar]

The empathetic answer to this concern is that this is literally one of the hardest town games I've played in the last two years. It was out of my comprehension that this gamestate would even exist, and if you really distrust that a towny wouldn't know what to do here I'm not sure how that can be shaken. Freezing close to elo also isn't even uncommon for him, certainly not out of townrange by a long shot. He has confidence and choking issues.

It was not limited to this day phase. This that I noticed on day 3 was part of that thought

I feel like we should wait for catboi to finish what he is doing before we kill gm here

not sure what I'm doing has a ton of value but we can at least give gm a chance for a defense

You seem to be really down on your solving abilities this game - and I am not quite sure how to interact with it.

I for one have a high opinion of your reads, and am interested in seeing them - I mean our first ever game together you managed to single handedly turn the game direction around to killing the last scum, despite the entire rest of the thread thinking they were confirmed town.

T02 also seemed interested in getting your reads this day phase.

Don't really know if that's proper, there are a lot of things he could've meant by that, but I still don't find it unusual

[syugar]

@Cat.Jpeg in the case Bella crosses on Luke you've got the hammer, I have a strong legacy that catboi is town if I somehow die due to some weird shit going down

[syugar]

VOTE: Bella

This is what I wanted all along, sorry to be so elliptical about it.

This post makes me feel sick to my stomach.

It probably should, I'm voting to eliminate someone who I feel is more likely to be town for strategical reasons. It isn't really intuitive.

[syugar]

It once again feels like I am completely unable to communicate with you.

Okay, honestly, how strong do you suspect him? I can't even wrap my head around it.

[syugar]

Give me a bit to read that, I'm playing Mahjong

[syugar]

It once again feels like I am completely unable to communicate with you.

Okay, honestly, how strong do you suspect him? I can't even wrap my head around it.

Does it even matter?

We lose to scum catboi at this point.

I'm going to sleep.

Yeah, we do, don't we? Sorry if you're right, I guess I am being a little selfish. If I'm torpedoing the game it's more of a sign I should quit

Give me a bit to read that, I'm playing Mahjong

Don't bother. I am not even trying to convince you of it any more.

Its just frutrating feeling like what I am saying is just not understood.

I'm sorry that I made you feel that way, but in my good conscience I've legitimately been nodding along to what you've been saying and disagreeing with it. I asked for elaboration on one point I really didn't understand and it ended up you misunderstanding catboi's post, so I think from any indication I've given you a fair shot. At the same time, though, I guess I didn't because I don't think Jesus Mary and Joseph could convince me he's the scum here

[syugar]

fmpov though I've just been trying to latch onto one solid read in order to try and recover this from being a coin-flip and it's been pretty fun

[syugar]

that being said, the only other thing i'll offer is that if you/luke/catjpeg vote for me today, just try to sponge my townread on catboi and elim luke tomorrow

This, but I'm syugar and saying don't just town read catboi

It's gonna be really difficult for me but if you honestly feel that way I'll do a bit more due diligence and try to ask some questions about things I don't understand

[syugar]

If I wasn't sure he was town I don't think I'd be voting you in the first place

[syugar]

Someone who knows Catboi (syugar but also anyone else), tell me, ignoring everything else from this game, would catboi be open to doing a crazy bus at the start of this game if he and GM were partnered?

Yeah probably, haven't used this as justification for or against anything

They didn't ~really~ bus d1 either if they were a team but idk

need to sleep its so late

[syugar]

VOTE: Unvote

Will put it back when I wake up if nothing changes my mind but don't want this to go through in the next 8 hours

[syugar]

Actually no

I want to trust myself here

VOTE: Bella

All I'm really capable of doing is playing according to what I think is going on. Everyone here plays too well for me to be fazed by any of this right now.

[syugar]

But yeah I'm going back to sleep for real

Bella: your point has been noted. Luke's kind of believable emotional moments have been noted by me, not ignoring them by any stretch

[syugar]

@Malakittens: agreeing to a speedy night if the game is still going

[syugar]

I am like, sort of irritated that I talked myself into voting you here but at the same time it feels kind of owed to t02/jpeg

[syugar]

@Mod: I concede

Dang haha

[syugar]

Kinda sucks that it had to end that way but I was gonna vote you tomorrow anyway if you didn't get me sent over

Well played overall though, I can see what you were doing

@catboi Nice instincts as usual

[syugar]

Kinda happy with how I played this phase even if I sucked the rest of this game

See yall on the other side

[syugar]

Kinda sucks that it had to end that way but I was gonna vote you tomorrow anyway if you didn't get me sent over

Well played overall though, I can see what you were doing

@catboi Nice instincts as usual

Yes. my full expectation for elo was that I was going to end up in a cross with either you or catboi, and then with Bella deciding.

Yeah

I didn't like my odds at all if it were crossed between me and you, nor did I like the odds if it was crossed between you or catboi

Saw it as kind if unlikely catjpeg voted you today so I think you had the right idea

In another game you may have convinced me if I wasn't so sure on my TR

[syugar]

Kinda happy with how I played this phase even if I sucked the rest of this game

See yall on the other side

happy trails dude best of luck in life

Yes, nice to play with you again, it's really fun.

I haven't really enjoyed this game as much since 2012, just been trying to chase that feeling, but it's not the same