Newbie 2098 | Manila Sound | Day 4

[BlueBloodedToffee]

[
The end of page 50 was my progression from froggo to Sara.

Which comes after Sara calls you scum.

Holy shit, is it UnFoy?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll be honest, this will likely end up a Takemikazuchi vs froggodoggo Day 4.

Elim Sara and kill BBT?

Ohhhh shit, hold on. We need time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The end of page 50 was my progression from froggo to Sara.

Which comes after Sara calls you scum.

Holy shit, is it UnFoy?

I'll be honest, this will likely end up a Takemikazuchi vs froggodoggo Day 4.

Elim Sara and kill BBT?

Ohhhh shit, hold on. We need time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Sara

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wow.

OK, it's Take. It has to be.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

There is no way scum!UnFoy doesn't kill me, especially after my posting towards the EoD3

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Take has to kill Frog, it's the only kill that makes sense.

If UnFoy is scum then gg I guess?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll be honest, my current pool is looking like a Takemikazuchi02/Zara/froggodoggo hammer. As to why I'm not including BlueBloodedToffee, is he's dying N3. Assuming Sara is indeed town, scum roleblock Sara and kill BlueBloodedToffee, they kill BlueBloodedToffee because they'd then get the 'easiest' 1 vs 1 Day 4. It's just a shame the win will likely be decided by a lurker.

This is why I'm alive with you UnFoy

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Take's voting history was just as bad as Frog's but I gave too much weight to the Alex kill and certain posts from Wiz

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Especially as now I know one of you two have to be scum it shows that Wiz wasn't afraid to interact with his partner at all which is strange for newbscum

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm gonna go through the same process as yesterday but I find it extremely difficult to believe that UnFoy can be scum with Wiz for the same reasons I found Sara difficult to be scum with Wiz.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Possibly.

But you knew Frog would be coming for you no matter what.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The NK is just one part of my reason that I think it's you.

NK are usually WIFOMy anyway so trying to solely use that as a base for a read isn't good practice. I just don't see a world where scum!UnFoy kills Frog.

I will get into more analysis/reasons I think it's you later today when I'm not phone posting and have a little more time

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not sure I agree with you that killing Frog for scum!Take was sub optimal either.

If you leave Frog alive and he votes you straight out the gate you're locked into a 1v1. I'd argue you have a much better chance of winning with Frog out of the way, especially as I ended D4 showing suspicion of UnFoy and town reading you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You should add more thoughts than just defending yourself, too.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not sure you did but OK, as I said, it's WIFOMy to focus too much on kills.

Who is scum Take and why?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, so I have updated the VCs below;

Spoiler: D1 VCs

Vote Count 1.01

Prismo

(4):

Sara

,

Alexcellent

, UnFoytunate,

Radical Rat

[E-1]

Radical Rat

(1)

:

froggodoggo

froggodoggo

(1)

:

wizardastronaut

Not Voting (3):

Prismo

, Takemikazuchi02, Spartan117

Vote Count 1.02

froggodoggo

(3)

: UnFoytunate, Takemikazuchi02,

Radical Rat

Takemikazuchi02 (2)

:

froggodoggo

,

Alexcellent

Spartan117 (1)

:

Sara

Sara

(1)

:

wizardastronaut

Not Voting (2):

Prismo

, BlueBloodedToffee

Vote Count 1.03

Sara

(3)

:

wizardastronaut

, Takemikazuchi02,

Prismo

wizardastronaut

(2)

: BlueBloodedToffee, UnFoytunate

Prismo

(2)

:

Alexcellent

,

Radical Rat

Radical Rat

(1)

:

froggodoggo

Not Voting (1):

Sara

Vote Count 1.04

Prismo

(3)

:

Alexcellent

,

Radical Rat

, BlueBloodedToffee

Sara

(2)

:Takemikazuchi02,

Prismo

Radical Rat

(2)

:

froggodoggo

,

wizardastronaut

wizardastronaut

(1)

: UnFoytunate

Not Voting (1):

Sara

Vote Count 1.05

furtiveglance

(4)

:

Alexcellent

,

Radical Rat

,

froggodoggo

, UnFoytunate

[E-1]

Radical Rat

(2)

:

wizardastronaut

,

furtiveglance

Sara

(1)

:Takemikazuchi02

wizardastronaut

(1)

:

Sara

Not Voting (1):

BlueBloodedToffee

[/color]

Vote Count 1.06

furtiveglance

(4)

:

Alexcellent

,

Radical Rat

,

froggodoggo

, UnFoytunate

[E-1]

wizardastronaut

(2):

BlueBloodedToffee,

furtiveglance

Radical Rat

(1)

:

wizardastronaut

Sara

(1)

:Takemikazuchi02

froggodoggo

(1)

:

Sara

Not Voting (0):

No one.

Vote Count 1.07

furtiveglance

(3)

:

Alexcellent

,

Radical Rat

, Takemikazuchi02

wizardastronaut

(3):

BlueBloodedToffee,

froggodoggo

, UnFoytunate

Radical Rat

(2)

: ,

wizardastronaut

,

furtiveglance

froggodoggo

(1)

:

Sara

Not Voting (0): No one.

Vote Count 1.08

furtiveglance

(4)

:

Alexcellent

,

Radical Rat

, Takemikazuchi02,

froggodoggo

[E-1]

Radical Rat

(4)

:

wizardastronaut

,

furtiveglance

, BlueBloodedToffee,

Sara

[E-1]

wizardastronaut

(1):

UnFoytunate

Not Voting (0): No one.

Vote Count 1.09

furtiveglance

(5)

:

Alexcellent

,

Radical Rat

,

froggodoggo

, BlueBloodedToffee, Takemikazuchi02

[ELIMINATION]

Radical Rat

(3)

:

wizardastronaut

,

furtiveglance

,

Sara

wizardastronaut

(1):

UnFoytunate

Not Voting (0):

I need to look at a few things from this VC history; the elim on Furtive, I stand by what I said yesterday, that wagon is not all town (I understand this only fits FMPOV but still)

The original wagon on Prismo and UnFoy's vote there
Early Froggo wagon
Take's reasons for voting Sara and UnFoy's for voting Wiz
UnFoy's E-1 on Furtive
How Take got onto the Furtive wagon
Why UnFoy sat on Wiz all day

Once I have looked at all of those things, I'll give my final thoughts.

Again, from a quick glance UnFoy's voting looks much better than Take's. However, I don't like how UnFoy is sat on the sidelines when there are two major wagons at EoD and sitting on a scum mate is a good place to sit without ruffling feathers and drawing attention.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I feel like it's pretty simply FMPOV - I just kill you because Take vs Froggo is easy.

Same for you. You kill me to set up Take vs Froggo but you have the addition of my suspicion towards you at EoD Yesterday as extra reason to kill me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Like, Froggo was so locked in on Take it just makes 0 sense for either of us to kill him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I was town reading Take at EoD Yesterday as well so, again, less reason for you to kill Frog.

You couldn't have known I would 180 on my Take read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

NK analysis is WIFOMy though so I'd rather take a good look through the thread and the things I noted before making a final decision.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why does Take kill me N2?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wait do you mean N3? As in Yesterday?

Not N2, the night Wiz got elimmed?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You should scum case instead of town casing yourself.

UnFoy, you're assuming Take is confident that he can win vs Froggo. Also, if he kills Froggo he doesn't even need to deal with that situation. In this scenario, me and you are supposed to go at each other while Take sits back. He would never have expected me to 180 on my read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's why you're scum Take - that kill makes 0 sense from UnFoy.

As a side note, I feel like it's fairly obvious that I can't be paired with Wiz but if I need to point it out I will do.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm starting to suspect you BBT

Expected, but understandable.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That was a not so subtle attempt at trying to keep myself alive in the event that Sara didn't flip scum.

It looks like it worked. The only way that wouldn't work was if UnFoy was scum which I discounted pretty heavily. Or if nobody took any notice I guess.

Luckily for me, you did.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Interesting that you posted right after that Yesterday too without a single comment on it.

I even quoted myself to post it twice. No response.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UnFoy, why aren't you trying to solve?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think your posts in ELo show no indication of trying to solve, yes.

Apart from a basic NKA question, how are you trying to solve?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'd think if you were you would be providing some thoughts in thread?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'd think if you were you would be providing some thoughts in thread?

It was a while ago, but what do you think of the wizardastronaut / Sara day 1 shenanigans?

Feel like I have given my opinion on this plenty.

I didn't believe Sara and Wiz could be scum together because of the way he hard pushed her from the beginning of the game. Plus, regardless of Wiz's push, I had reasons to think she was town which I stated in thread.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This points to a BBT partner, but I want to hear both of your answers first, to make sure my logic for thinking it's a slip adds up, if it doesn't, I'll tell you what my logic was regardless, but naturally I'd prefer for it to be correct.

If you're reading the game I would assume you will come to the conclusion that I simply don't make sense as partner with Wiz.

That should be obvious.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wait, what?

Why is that scummy?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm actually going to have to town case myself aren't I?

This is hilarious

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, and why would it be scummy to try and get someone off a wagon on someone I was town reading?

And if I wanted to move my scum buddy off of a wagon couldn't I just post it in the PT that we would have?

Pedit - It's not arrogance. It's sheer disbelief that I'm finding myself in this position

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Should have some time later today to get to this

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, when I can sit down on my PC I'll get to it

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Take, can you talk me through both of your votes on Furtive at EoD1 please? Struggling to find reasoning for them outside of 'No-one wants to vote my scum reads'

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UnFoy, talk to me about your unvote on Prismo early game (he was at E-1, you wanted to avoid 'hammer nonsense') and then your subsequent scum read on Take for being overly cautious on an E-1 vote.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, that one.

Given you like aggressiveness, I'm surprised at this unvote. But, much more importantly than this, you then go on to scum read Take for the exact same thing.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE: Prismo
Just to guarantee no nonsense hammer gambits.

Yeah let's force sara to talk. I lost my last game in part because of a lurking maf slot that ended up being replaced late in the game andwe couldn't get a read on that slot.

VOTE: sata E-2

UNVOTE: Sara

What the heck is this?

You've done a bit of 2+2 = 3 with your logic here, the same thing froggodoggo did. Why would you un-E-1 somebody when you voted for them in the first place to get them to speak?

For clarity

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you explain why you chose Furtive over Wizard given you were scum reading both?

Especially as a Wiz vote would have been E-1 and the Furtive vote was only E-2?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And once you realised you had miscounted? Why no change?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Even on reflection, Take's on and off the Sara wagon looks awful. The vote is pretty weak and I can see scum!Take not wanting to be analyzed too heavily for being on a wagon with such a weak vote.

UnFoy's vote on Wiz actually looks good. The build up looks good and the progression seems legit. This doesn't mean UnFoy is town (he could see everything Wiz does as scummy because he knows Wiz is scum) but it does look genuine.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

504

UnFoy, talk about this vote on Furtive please? I can't see any progression for this vote at all? Almost comes out of the blue?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Take's hammer on Furtive can easily be scum and I hate UnFoy stating intent on Furtive and then not following through.

UnFoy sits on Wiz, completely on the sidelines of the game, for the majority of the 2nd half of D1. Given scum!UnFoy knows both of these wagons are town, it's a convenient place for him to sit and let town do the dirty work for him. Take's feelings towards EoD1 feel genuine in terms of wanting the Day to end and almost accepting any wagon.

I'm starting to think it could be UnFoy. But that NK makes absolutely no sense

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm sorry?

506 is retrospective and in no way can act as reasoning for your 504 vote given it happens afterwards.

Why does RR doing something that is not 'pro-town' force you to vote for Furtive?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Take's hammer on Furtive can easily be scum.

Are you fucking serious dude? Do you have no memory? Do you not remember how bad the end of day 1 was?

I do.

Like I said, it is a convenient and easy vote for scum to make. I did afterwards say that your hammer kind of felt genuine, too.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think I've gone through everything I wanted to and I'm not sure it has helped - I feel more unsure that what I was at the start of the Day

I am leaning more towards UnFoy now though, some of that voting D1 made no sense at all.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If Furtive did something scummier, show me it? You can't vote in 504 and then use 506 as justification for that vote, it doesn't work like that.

You couldn't have known 506 would happen when you voted in 504.

If the answers are there, you should have no problems repeating them unless you're worried about consistency?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I am looking at everything I can to try and gain as much information as possible. I don't know who is scum between the two of you and none of you are doing much outside of responding to my questions so I have nothing else to go off.

Take, who do you think is scum and why?

UnFoy, who do you think is scum and why?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Man, UnFoy's start of D2 was dreadful. Looked like newbscum unsure how to look like they're processing information and going back to a very primitive read on Take that they 'shouldn't have dropped'.

The confusion regarding RR getting the guilty on Wiz was weird as well, then the unvote on Wiz to try and push Sara into doing something (claiming?)

UnFoy's D2 was dreadful, but they did end up on the Wiz wagon. Take being off wagon would usually look townie but the reasoning was really, really bad.

I'm not getting anywhere. I need to let the thread breathe and see what you two can produce independently.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I just need something.

I feel like I'm going around in circles and not really getting anywhere. Whichever of you is town, I really need you to step up.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you show where Wiz was 'calm' when I pressured him and show when he wasn't when pushed by others?

In what way do his reads feel forced?

Why is me trying to get someone off someone I'm town reading scummy? Why wouldn't I tell Wiz in the scum PT if I wanted him to move?

Why in the flying fuck would I kill Frog? Like, Jesus. I just kill you and leave Take and Frog to fight it out. It's not rocket science.

Why is Wiz scum reading me at start of D2 weird? He showed signs of it on D1 too?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Reasons I can't be scum with Wiz;

382 - Wiz actively tries to discredit town reads on me.

389 I call Wiz out on his scumslip - Scum!BBT just ignores it and hopes no-one else notices. And if they do, join them! Why do I actively point this out on my partner?

558 Wiz actively appeals for me to help him. He did this with a fair few people, though I don't think he did it with UnFoy? Repeats in 611 It's highly unusual, though not impossible I guess, for scum to actively call out for help from their buddy.

As well as this, go back and check who was the main pusher of the Wiz wagon when it was the counter to the Furtive wagon. 545 onwards, please tell me how this makes sense from a scum!BBT perspective.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT - Third in the wagon. Somewhere in the wiki I read that scum like to be third. And they were suspiciously eager to push us off the Sara wagon. They never explained why. (They explained why I should back off, but not why you should.) So I don't understand where they were coming from.

A) You were weirdly eager to get people to move off of Sara.
B) It's hard to exactly explain, but to me your scum read on Prismo feels different than how you've been reading other people's behavior. Jumping on them third after Alex declared them to be our miselim target for today I think could very easily be a scum who's eager to move the game along and get out someone who is town.
C) Y'all are providing too much town credit to BBT for a little bit of early aggression

I don't reach the same conclusions as RR, but do like the direction it is leading none-the-less. I think that furtive has been the more obvious elimination for a while now so if furtive = town, RR = mafia its not

that

hard to imagine that BBT or Sara (or UnFoy?) were mafia who were comfortable waiting it out and making town do the miselim. (How BBT's new intent factors into this I need to ponder.) But I suppose I can buy that UnFoy, Froggo, Alex, Rat are the more likely partners with RR on this world. (Maybe not UnFoy? I'm not entirely sure where to place UnFoy in this reasoning.)

If furtive = mafia, RR = town I still think furtive's partner has nerves of steel for not joining with me earlier. (And would be near incomprehensible if they are someone currently voting furtive and still didn't flop with RR finally making E-1.) I guess Sara would be the most likely partner? And they did hint at liking the froggo/Rr scum-pair a while before actually acting it, only doing so once BBT did. I had been pondering what BBT/furtive world might look like one they hopped over (they were also the first to unvote furtive) but BBT's recent declaration of intent messes with that. (Though I suppose they could have been trying to give their furtive partner one last chance and now given up since nobody no the furtive wagon has given any indication of considering changing.)

Wiz shading me plenty on D1, so the D2 scum read wasn't from nowhere. He was clearly keeping it there ready for if he needed it.

PEdit - Right, I stayed on Wiz for a long time and was actively pushing that as the counter. D1 lasted too long and it was clear it needed to end, so I switched votes and hammered Furtive. I believe I even said at the time that I didn't expect a red flip?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UnFoy, you missed some of my questions from earlier, too.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm assuming you're buying the scum read from wizardastronaut because you were third on the wagon then?

This is not what I said. Wiz goes out of his way to actively try and discredit any town reads on me, why would scum try and

stop

people from town reading their buddy?

389 I call Wiz out on his scumslip - Scum!BBT just ignores it and hopes no-one else notices. And if they do, join them! Why do I actively point this out on my partner?

I don't see how it was a scumslip and not wizard just being weird. It's a scumslip for someone to class a town read as a mislim? Sure in hindsight we can say its weird because he flipped red, but under the situation he could be town (as in Day 1) it's not a slip.

Even if it wasn't a scum slip, why would I, as Wiz's buddy, bring attention to something that could get him elimmed?

558 Wiz actively appeals for me to help him. He did this with a fair few people, though I don't think he did it with UnFoy? Repeats in 611 It's highly unusual, though not impossible I guess, for scum to actively call out for help from their buddy.

Are you town casing yourself here?

The whole post was the town case.

As well as this, go back and check who was the main pusher of the Wiz wagon when it was the counter to the Furtive wagon. 545 onwards, please tell me how this makes sense from a scum!BBT perspective.

I need clarity on this, are you trying to imply you were the main pusher of a Wiz wagon from

545

onwards?

Yes, I am and I very clearly was. First vote on the wagon and active pusher.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

As to the first question, Sara was at E-1, the only person you tried to

convince

to unvote is wizardastronaut, yet don't make much of an effort with others apart from hinting at them not to do so. Then when Alex basically says he's staying on the Sara wagon it doesn't feel like you made any effort to actually move him you just asked for his reads. This all transpired around pages 9, 10, and 11.

Who was the main pusher of the Sara wagon?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If you're voting Sara you should probably unvote.

VOTE: Wizard

Yeah, you're holding onto that vote (and therefore the wagon) for way too long when you appeared to have a SR on UnFoy.

What do you make of Wizard clinging onto the Sara vote/wagon Alex?

You're the one driving the wagon, no? Are you trying to shift responsibility now?

You basically said 'Why are you picking on me when you said everyone voting Sara?' this feels like a deflection onto other people.

I explained I am picking on you because you seem intent on the Sara wagon depesite having another scum read you could push.

@Alex -You don't think it's scum not wanting to leave an early wagon that could potentially become a lim?

My position on this is very clear. I am actively scum reading and pushing and voting Wiz for his push on Sara. Again, why do I single him out as my buddy when, as you say, there are 3 other people?

It simply doesn't make sense from a s/s perspective.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Vote Count 1.07

furtiveglance (3)

: Alexcellent, Radical Rat, Takemikazuchi02

wizardastronaut (3):

BlueBloodedToffee, froggodoggo, UnFoytunate

Radical Rat (2)

: , wizardastronaut, furtiveglance

froggodoggo (1)

: Sara

Not Voting (0): No one.

With 9 alive, it's 5 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 1 is July 29 at 10:00 PM GMT +8

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-07-29 22:00:00)

This post very clearly shows that I am the main driver of the Wiz wagon as a counter to Furtive.

I simply cannot be scum with Wiz for a myriad of reasons, but this is a very strong one.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Really, Take? You of all people who wanted the day to end more than anyone?

Come on now, I was ready for day to end. Look how long I tried to defend Furtive for, there were many posts but nobody was moving. Frog left my Wiz wagon which no longer made it viable so I opted for the wagon that was the counter to Furtive. 743 shows where I was at.

I didn't just magically end up on Furtive.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So I didn't start the push on Wiz?

I couldn't have kept my vote on RR? Or joined the Furtive wagon?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UnFoy, you're selectively responding to my posts and not addressing everything I say.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Given almost all of his questions/accusations have been directed towards me, you know full well the answer to this question.

You didn't, and consistently haven't, responded to my posts to you either.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is there any reason you have missed out some of my questions, UnFoy?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: UnFoy

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

Fuck me, that felt good.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Take, please read through UnFoy and I's conversation closely and note how he has selectively chosen what to respond to.

I have tried multiple times to engage him to make it clear that this is what he is doing.

If you have any questions for me, I'm happy to answer. I'm ready to vote UnFoy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's just not true.

If Take hammers me, GG.

If he doesn't, I'll vote you immediately and we'll go from there.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm genuinely shocked it's you though.

Was almost 100% at start of Day that it was Take. You've played pretty decent I have to say, that D1 stuff was very well done.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hmm, OK.

But if you have reason to scum read UnFoytunate then that read should take precedence over a read that is basically because someone is quiet, no?

Maybe not so quite well played.

I saw links between UnFoy and Wiz early, kind of annoyed I didn't push this further now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Wizard

Yeah, you're holding onto that vote (and therefore the wagon) for way too long when you appeared to have a SR on UnFoy.

I mean, any scum read is better than a random read, no?

Unless you're saying you have stronger reasons to scum read Sara?

What do you make of Wizard clinging onto the Sara vote/wagon Alex?

You basically said 'Why are you picking on me when you said everyone voting Sara?' this feels like a deflection onto other people.

I explained I am picking on you because you seem intent on the Sara wagon depesite having another scum read you could push.

@Alex -You don't think it's scum not wanting to leave an early wagon that could potentially become a lim?

Wiz's absolute reluctance to vote UnFoy in the early game makes complete sense now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Let's gooooooo.

VOTE: UnFoy

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ask me anything Take.

Read through my posts please, I make absolutely no sense as scum with Wiz.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This is much easier as I can focus in on just the one person now.

Trying to work out both of you was hurting my brain. You will notice that UnFoy did no such thing and pretty much had me as scum from the outset.

I was trying to solve. UnFoy was pushing an agenda.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Another thing is that you will notice my reads have been fluid and changed as new information was presented.

UnFoy has had sticky reads in that they have never really changed as the game progressed. Also notice that UnFoy completely turned his attention to Sara Yesterday once she started calling him scum.

I tried to speak to UnFoy about this and he completely ignored me. Twice.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hmm, hold on.

Sara called UnFoy scum and then UnFoy wanted to elim Sara?

Is that what happened?

[
The end of page 50 was my progression from froggo to Sara.

Which comes after Sara calls you scum.

Holy shit, is it UnFoy?

I'll be honest, this will likely end up a Takemikazuchi vs froggodoggo Day 4.

Elim Sara and kill BBT?

Ohhhh shit, hold on. We need time.

The end of page 50 was my progression from froggo to Sara.

Which comes after Sara calls you scum.

Holy shit, is it UnFoy?

I'll be honest, this will likely end up a Takemikazuchi vs froggodoggo Day 4.

Elim Sara and kill BBT?

Ohhhh shit, hold on. We need time.

At the time, this caught my attention but not enough to make me think UnFoy was scum. I used it as a plot to keep myself alive in the even Sara was town and Take was scum.

Now, given the information I have, it's clear that UnFoy turned on Sara as soon as she started scum reading him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT what were the questions he ignored? I'll make unfoy answer them.

It will have to wait until I'm on PC Take.

In my first post to UnFoy with numerous questions, I believe he ignored 3 of them and responded to two.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you show where Wiz was 'calm' when I pressured him and show when he wasn't when pushed by others?

In what way do his reads feel forced?

Why is me trying to get someone off someone I'm town reading scummy? Why wouldn't I tell Wiz in the scum PT if I wanted him to move?

Why in the flying fuck would I kill Frog? Like, Jesus. I just kill you and leave Take and Frog to fight it out. It's not rocket science.

Why is Wiz scum reading me at start of D2 weird? He showed signs of it on D1 too?

Here.

He ignored the question to show evidence of Wiz being calm under pressure from me but flailing under other people.

He ignored the question regarding how Wiz's reads feel forced.

Wiz scum reading me D2 despite clearly shading me through D1 as well, he ignored this.

He also ignored me asking why getting someone to unvote someone I'm townreading is scummy.

This is just one post as well. He has done this many times.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UnFoy just admitted to tonally changing his play in ELo by the way.

Ask yourself why he would do that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Who is belittling? You keep trying to paint me as the big, bad meanie because I'm experienced.

I said you changed your play tonally in ELo and asked Take to think about why you might do that. In what way is that belittling?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

To further clarify Take, why would someone who enjoys playing aggressively NOT scum hunt aggressively in ELo.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why was UnFoy last to play his hand on where his suspicions lay?

Why didn't he come out of the gate aggressively pushing both of us to figure which of us were town?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Now show him flailing under pressure from others?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

wizardastronaut for some reason felt immune and calm when pressured by BBT but not from anyone else

This equates to - Wiz was calm under pressure from BBT but showed some other response when under pressure from other people.

I'm asking you to prove it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Which only shows half of what you're saying.

You're saying he reacts differently to me than to other people.

Prove it.

This is only a minor thing in the grand scheme of all of my questions and you're really struggling.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

his reads on BBT also seem made up and very forced.

I know you like quotes.

You were talking about his read on me being forced. Explain it please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Which only shows half of what you're saying.

You're saying he reacts differently to me than to other people.

Prove it.

This is only a minor thing in the grand scheme of all of my questions and you're really struggling.

I got a scum read, for focusing on Wiz by Wiz, you got a town read despite in your eyes "being the driving force" (paraphrase) behind the wagon. Your first push on Wiz garnered a 'no'. You didn't find that weird at the time? You certainly didn't comment on how weird it was that you pushed and only got hit with a "no".

This doesn't answer what I just asked you.

Wiz was scum reading me on D1, I have shown this multiple times. So what you just said was false.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT - Third in the wagon. Somewhere in the wiki I read that scum like to be third. And they were suspiciously eager to push us off the Sara wagon. They never explained why. (They explained why I should back off, but not why you should.) So I don't understand where they were coming from.

A) You were weirdly eager to get people to move off of Sara.
B) It's hard to exactly explain, but to me your scum read on Prismo feels different than how you've been reading other people's behavior. Jumping on them third after Alex declared them to be our miselim target for today I think could very easily be a scum who's eager to move the game along and get out someone who is town.
C) Y'all are providing too much town credit to BBT for a little bit of early aggression

I don't reach the same conclusions as RR, but do like the direction it is leading none-the-less. I think that furtive has been the more obvious elimination for a while now so if furtive = town, RR = mafia its not

that

hard to imagine that BBT or Sara (or UnFoy?) were mafia who were comfortable waiting it out and making town do the miselim. (How BBT's new intent factors into this I need to ponder.) But I suppose I can buy that UnFoy, Froggo, Alex, Rat are the more likely partners with RR on this world. (Maybe not UnFoy? I'm not entirely sure where to place UnFoy in this reasoning.)

If furtive = mafia, RR = town I still think furtive's partner has nerves of steel for not joining with me earlier. (And would be near incomprehensible if they are someone currently voting furtive and still didn't flop with RR finally making E-1.) I guess Sara would be the most likely partner? And they did hint at liking the froggo/Rr scum-pair a while before actually acting it, only doing so once BBT did. I had been pondering what BBT/furtive world might look like one they hopped over (they were also the first to unvote furtive) but BBT's recent declaration of intent messes with that. (Though I suppose they could have been trying to give their furtive partner one last chance and now given up since nobody no the furtive wagon has given any indication of considering changing.)

Wiz shading me plenty on D1, so the D2 scum read wasn't from nowhere. He was clearly keeping it there ready for if he needed it.

PEdit - Right, I stayed on Wiz for a long time and was actively pushing that as the counter. D1 lasted too long and it was clear it needed to end, so I switched votes and hammered Furtive. I believe I even said at the time that I didn't expect a red flip?

Already did it.

You're not reading very closely for what is a crucial part of the game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, you said Wiz was calm when pressured by me and not when pressured by others.

Using quotes, shoe Wiz reacting differently to pressure from me AND pressure from someone else in the same post.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Right.

Because he was faking the read and that's why it was inconsistent. You're doing my job for me.

For Wiz to be scum with me, he would have to know I am scum because we would be scum together. So for him to 'forget' he ever had a scum read on me in the first place means the read was completely fabricated.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Of course his reads are fabricated, he is scum! Scum fabricate all of their reads because none of them are genuine!

If I am scum, he knows I am scum with him. He wouldn't forget I was scum and he was scum reading me, because I would be scum with him. Whereas if I am town, because his reads are fabricated and therefore not genuine, he forgets who he scum read. It shows a lack of consistency in his reads because they're completely made up.

Scum forget who they're town reading and who they're scum reading a lot because the reads are not genuine.

It shows a lack of consistency and fake read progression.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, so that point is finished.

How about you show Wiz responding differently to pressure now?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I've simply asked you to show me instances where Wiz has reacted differently to pressure from me and pressure from somebody else.

You don't seem able to do it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You could try and answer all the other questions you avoided if you can't answer that one?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're resorting to quoting things that don't answer questions?

Cool.

I think my work is done. If you got anything for me Take, let me know.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's the second time you have tried to shade me Wizard.

Why do you think I'm scum?

A) You were weirdly eager to get people to move off of Sara.
B) It's hard to exactly explain, but to me your scum read on Prismo feels different than how you've been reading other people's behavior. Jumping on them third after Alex declared them to be our miselim target for today I think could very easily be a scum who's eager to move the game along and get out someone who is town.
C) Y'all are providing too much town credit to BBT for a little bit of early aggression

Why is getting people to unvote Sara scummy?

Hard to explain because BS? What is wrong with my Prismo read? Alex declared them to be the '

mis

elim target for today??? Does this mean you know Prismo to be town?

Discrediting town reads is very much scummy. Again, unless you can provide some decent reasoning for why I am scum?

UnFoy is trying to use the exact same reasons as Wiz gave for his scum read on me! Coincidence? I think not!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're townreading Prismo, UnFoy?

No. Both Radical Rat and Prismo are scummy.

Why would Prismo be a mislim then?

If in a world Radical Rat = scum, Prismo's slot = town.

Though I think this is mostly a case of bussing from Rat.

You're not making sense here.

If you scum read Prismo and you think RR is bussing, why do you think Prismo is town?

I don't.

OK, so if you don't think Prismo is town then why did you say RR is pushing for a mislim? It would only be a mislim if Prismo is town, no?

If in a world Radical Rat = scum, Prismo's slot = town.

Though I think this is mostly a case of bussing from Rat.

These two things you're saying cannot both be true

You've said that twice now and it still doesn't make sense.

Can someone help me understand UnFoy's train of thought here?

I'm aware. However one of them is, I don't know which. I know which I think is much more likely.

Potential scum slip from UnFoy - cognitive dissonance I believe it is called.

Claimed to be scum reading Prismo but said if Prismo was elimmed it would be a

mis

lim, therefore implying the slot was in fact town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Assuming this is the case, can we assume it's not somebody I was pushing to hammer?

UnFoy tries to use my start of D2 analysis to completely take himself away from pushing Wiz. And he does this successfully, look where he starts pushing;

I'm going to go with this,

just

because I don't think I should've dropped what I did so quickly Day 1.

VOTE: Takemikazuchi02

I've already spoken about this but it looks even worse now. He didn't want to continue scum reading his buddy Wiz, so he drops that read but he doesn't know where to go next. Why? Because scum have to fabricate all of their reads. So, what does he do? He goes back to something that he had at the very start of D1. This is not town thinking, this is not town using new information to gain reads and this is not scum hunting. This is scum who is completely frozen and doesn't know what to do now that they're not pushing their buddy anymore.

I've changed my mind.

UNVOTE: Takemikazuchi02

VOTE: Radical Rat

This is

E-1

.

He then moves onto Rat. His read on Wiz has completely evaporated into thin air.

UNVOTE: Radical Rat

VOTE: froggodoggo

Then moves onto Frog.

UNVOTE: froggodoggo
VOTE: wizardastronaut

I don't know why I voted froggodoggo, I think I was confused with Rat saying wizard was town which he wasn't.

This was a perspective slip that I called out at the time. UnFoy simply wasn't looking at the game from a town perspective and couldn't understand that his buddy had been caught.

He had been scum reading Wiz all game, why was he so confused by RR saying he had checked Wiz? Because scum perspective.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Take, it's UnFoy.

I'm done. If you have any questions, I'm here.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Assuming this is the case, can we assume it's not somebody I was pushing to hammer?

I'm sorry but I really have to put this in it's own post.

This is UnFoy pretty much openly asking for reasoning to stop scum reading Wiz.

They're scum together. UnFoy knew he wouldn't die and knew he could come into D2 saying 'Well, if I'm alive it mustn' t be someone I was pushing' and that explains the heavy bussing throughout D1.

Game solved. Let's go, Take.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

1517 using new player confusion to argue new player = scum.
1515 is blatantly false.
1516 is blatantly false, considering more than one scenario isn't scummy.

Also why would I kill Rat BBT? If you assume I'm Scum, I spent Day 3 setting up a froggodoggo Day 4 hammer, tried to convince Takemikazuchi02 that Day 4 would be a froggodoggo 1v1, set up a very easy Takemikazuchi02 vs froggodoggo scenario. It makes the least sense for me to have killed him out of everybody here.

Then we consider Day 3 and Day 4. Your read on Takemikazuchi02 completely flips, and for no reason. Paraphrasing because I'm on my mobile 'Takemikazuchi02 would never have expected me to go 180 on my read on him''. You start off Day 4 by saying its Takemikazuchi02 do to the Night Kill. Takemikazuchi02 proceeds to explain the obvious reason he didn't Night Kill froggodoggo. You respond by saying 'the NK is just one of the reason that I think it's you'. Okay so you had reasons to scum read Takemikazuchi02 during Day 3. Awesome. The very next post: 'especially as I ended D4(meant D3 here) showing suspicion of UnFoy and town reading you.' Okay cool, you had scum reasons other than the Night Kill to suspect Takemikazuchi02... yet you town read him day 3? So you've gone from town reading to scum reading him, when over a period of time he said nothing and only potentially Night Killing. Yet Night Killing wasn't the only thing making you scum read him apparently.

I see, so when you can't respond to something you call it false? Everything I said is in thread and can be verified. Saying they are 'false' shows that you simply do not have an answer to my accusations.

Why would you kill Rat? Because he was cop? What an outrageous question.

You're right, my reads have changed a lot. That's what happens when you're town - you analyze new information and it forms your reads accordingly. You have shown a severe lack of doing this right throughout the thread. My gut instinct at the start of this Day was that Take was scum because of the NK, prior to the NK happening, I was town reading Take. I'm not sure what your actual point is? My posts were an initial reaction to a kill that I wasn't expecting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's it? That's all you're responding to?

Nice. Keep selectively interacting with me, it's blatantly obvious what you're doing and hopefully Take sees right through it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You acting like it's the first time you have done it is real cute.

You had the time to trim the quote down and everything.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

As opposed to the extra 30-45 seconds to respond to the rest of the post? Or does it take longer when you have to fabricate and double check everything you post? That makes sense I guess...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Umm, why would town not vote for scum? Once again, I was the main driver of the Wiz wagon and stayed on that Wiz wagon until it was no longer viable.

Also, reads changing is a huge town tell. Scum have sticky reads because it is difficult for them to evaluate using new information so they tend to tunnel and stick with the same reads to avoid doing this.

Town are constantly reevaluating reads and using new information to form them as well.

I am voting you by the way? I voted as soon as Take was confirmed town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

GGs, enjoyed this game even though it was a tough one!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Man, I made that so much harder than it should have been. Making kills is by far and away the weakest are of my scum game, they never go how I expect them to! Although it did seem to get a few people in Dead Thread thinking the way I expected, so I don't know.

Thanks for modding HEM, single handedly keeping the Newbie queue going haha. WP Wiz, think you played really well for first-time scum. Take, you were in a very difficult position in ELo so don't feel too bad about the vote, ELo is hard!

UnFoy, I'm sorry you felt I was being egotistical. I didn't intend for my play to come across that way at all.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We knew Sara was probably a Doc from very early game, I'm sure it's in the scum PT

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No reactions in scum PT from me btw

[BlueBloodedToffee]

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