Newbie 2101 | Better Call Saul | Game Over

[furtiveglance]

Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiìi *monkey with cymbals*

[furtiveglance]

I should do something sus so we have something to talk about.

*Twerks in sus*

[furtiveglance]

Hello, I don't know Pelican Town.

[furtiveglance]

Play stardew then smh

It looks a bit boring. I like Last Day on Earth: Survival at the moment.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: MegAzumarill

[furtiveglance]

On a semi-serious note I don't like fancypants' entrance

What's wrong with it, too serious too quickly?

[furtiveglance]

On a semi-serious note I don't like fancypants' entrance

What's wrong with it, too serious too quickly?

The idea that it's self referential in a way, like here are two players moving the game early so they are town, where they also do the same thing.

EBWOP

Ok, I'll say that it doesn't really bother me. Aside from me getting a townread, your point about it being self-referential doesn't resonate with me.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: MegAzumarill

i can probably guess why you're doing this but explain it anyway?

It was actually a serious vote rather than plainly RTing, I left it naked to see what the reaction would be. Meg already felt different from Mewbie 2092 in this game, more jokey in a way.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: MegAzumarill

i can probably guess why you're doing this but explain it anyway?

It was actually a serious vote rather than plainly RTing, I left it naked to see what the reaction would be. Meg already felt different from Mewbie 2092 in this game, more jokey in a way.

nah that was what i figured your reason was actually, just wanted to hear it in your own words

I am liking peta's entrace into the game so far. I'm gonna go with my dVOTE: esires.

this is good, because there is no reason whatsoever to distrust me

Did you think my vote was serious or a reaction test?

[furtiveglance]

Did you think my vote was serious or a reaction test?

i thought it was serious for basically the reasoning you gave

Moreso I'm OK with being the first wagon.

this is very slightly >rand town

Do you also think Meg is sus?

[furtiveglance]

Still here, I do townread petapan.

[furtiveglance]

Lol a Newbie game with no true newbs in it now.

@Mod can we get a current votecount?

I think we have 3 on Juice and 3 on esires?

Starting to get townvibes from Meg's exchange with FancyPants. Need to see more from Juice/Bulba/BBT. There's scum somewhere in there.

This is the kind of post that I'd probably make as scum, feels a bit safe. Maybe with your partner in the 3 'sus' players but never follow up on it.

[furtiveglance]

After my latest read through I'm struggling to read the situation correctly, kind of scumreading both BS2 and BBT a bit but I feel reluctant to vote. I'm gonna unvote Meg, all is forgiven and they seem fine now.

[furtiveglance]

UNVOTE: MegAzumarill

[furtiveglance]

What are you struggling with specifically?

Differentiating players actually. We haven't posted much collectively.

[furtiveglance]

I'm gonna go for Meg/Peta/Bulba for town, sus on BS and BBT and then the other three aren't so distinctive for me. I suppose Esires is fairly town, Fancypants can go either way. Not much from Juice yet.

[furtiveglance]

I'm most happy voting BBT for now.

VOTE: BBT

[furtiveglance]

I'm most happy voting BBT for now.

VOTE: BBT

1.

that's E-1

, call that out when you're voting so no one accidentally hammers

2. why?

Yeah it's E-2, I don't usually announce E-2. As to the why, just townreading other players. A few other players: You, Meg, Bulba, Esires, and FancyPants. BS200 is seeming more town than BBT right now.

[furtiveglance]

Hi guys, any questions for me?

[furtiveglance]

Esires, I'd say Petapan and you for 2 townreads and BBT/Juice for 2 scumreads

[furtiveglance]

Esires, I'd say Petapan and you for 2 townreads and BBT/Juice for 2 scumreads

Why do you town read esires?

Not sure, hard to articulate it.

[furtiveglance]

Inch resting

[furtiveglance]

I haven't been very active or engaged this game, and so I'd like to apologise.

-for the inconvenience of me <-not givin-> a^ F***!

what you think

[furtiveglance]

But on the real though, I'm happy to be alive in this game, and I'm happy with this current wagon.

[furtiveglance]

Thanks for replacing in guys. That was quick. In terms of voting I'm still happy to vote out BBT, I don't really have a lot of other scumreads. Decent point from Bella that petapan might have just been townread for activity but I've seen that happen to town more than mafia in my experience, maybe that's just me. I'm happy to call petapan innocent until someone susses them later.

[furtiveglance]

I'm happy to call petapan innocent until someone susses them later.

hm seetting up to push me on a future day i see your tricks

Yeah smart innit

[furtiveglance]

Alright.

BS made a post saying something along the lines of 'A newbie game with no newbies in' and this came across to me like scum complaining that they have no newbies and as such are at a disadvantage.

I don't think this is towny Rad. I feel like this is one of those votes that just happens to be mafia and we lucked out on this one.

[furtiveglance]

Rad, why am I null?

[furtiveglance]

Well, they went with the obvtown kill.

I guess 'they' went for the 2nd most obvious town, amirite guys haha. On the real though. I would like to show much remorse for petapan's passing. The guy townread me for a bit then sussed me at the end. Classic love hate thing. That's not what that means.

[furtiveglance]

Probably goes without saying but if anyone got a guilty result mention it, I didn't! Having said that, I think we all know exactly who both mafia are at this point, it's so obvious that we don't even need to say it.

[furtiveglance]

Ok I don't actually know. I'm thinking MEGfia. And maybe Bellaphia. Or Radfia.

[furtiveglance]

^ good voting

@fancy, I didn't get a chance to respond at day end but wanted to clarify - it wasn't distancing, more resignation - the bbt wagon elim looked really inevitable by the time I'd replaced in, and I had no strong feelings on the slot. What I was trying to say but don't think I was clear about was that whatever bbt flipped I found furtives vote on them the worst..

@furtive, why ignore esires in your list, the other half of bbt's hero solve?

Which list? I think esires is town, said it early on. I haven't been ignoring them.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: furtiveglance

I'll do some explaining tomorrow but I kind of want to vote here for now.

I was thinkin the same thing! cos like

Voting you that is, not self voting.

[furtiveglance]

Radfia

Uh huh do tell. Explain how this is scum!Rad here.

(Surfer dude voice) Idk man.

I'm considering it.

[furtiveglance]

Hero solve is esires/Furtive.

Peace!

Copycat.

This, furtive. Just wanted to see if you had a response

So by 'ignoring esires in MY list' you meant ignoring a dying town calling me mafia in their 'hero solve'?

Was I meant to reply to BBT? "Haha, no I'm not mafia." Or something like "rip buddy, wrong but town"?

Is it that I have partner equity with esires for not addressing the suggestion that we're mafia together? "It's not me and esires BBT, have fun in spec chat tho"

This is my response, if you manage to get anything from this then well done.

[furtiveglance]

That's weirdly aggressive - it felt to me like you named half of town as maybe scum, I just wanted more thoughts on esires - especially because two people thave mentioned you having partner equity already. I'm actually not massively sure why, hence wanting more thoughts from you on them

I thought you could have been clearer. If you inferred an agressive tone, it's because the underlying implication is that you scumread me and probably will whatever I say. Ignoring another player is also a thinly veiled accusation of being paired, so I found your question more loaded than innocent.

[furtiveglance]

As for giving a quick poe of 3, I townread the other players. Biggest turnaround is on BS200, I think their posting has a towny edge to it.

[furtiveglance]

Still: can you walk me through your read on esires?

Why? You said you don't scumread them either. So neither of us would be trying to convince the other.

[furtiveglance]

repp me out. i refuse to play with Bulba

Did Juice and Bulbazoor argue before this? If not, why did Juice namedrop Bulbazoor? Can't believe I've just noticed this.

[furtiveglance]

I know we aren't meant to discuss replacements but this is surely relevant to the game.

[furtiveglance]

Anyway, aside from that, I had some thoughts on the game.

I'm finding it hard to articulate my thoughts on specific players and how I'm reading them based on posts, I feel it's too subjective. Instead, I'm going to make 2 assumptions (dangerous I know): 1) Mafia don't vote their partner apart from RVS and 2) Mafia don't hard townread their partner. I know these have exceptions sometimes but I'm going to use these 2 assumptions to eliminate some pairs and see what that leaves. I'll also just say if I think an interaction doesn't look scum/scum. If I don't like the results, I'll just ignore them.

Spoiler:

Posts 7, 8 and 10 for instance, aren't serious votes. So I don't see why mafia wouldn't RVS vote their partner, I'm not counting these votes.

Post 14 is something a mafia might ask their partner, I won't rule this possibility out.

15 from Fancypants is different, not the vote which I don't consider unpaired but the 2 reads which I do. So I'm going to rule out BS/Fancypants.

Posts 18 and 19 surely indicate that esires/Fancypants is not the mafia team.

I think 28 could be paired as there was no vote backing it up, and see no reason to rule out Fancypants/Meg.

In 39, Bellaphant (formerly Bulbazoor) puts esires at E-2 quite early on. Not paired in my eyes. There's also 76 in which Bulbazoor shades esires.

Based on 42 and 78, I don't think it's BS/esires. Esires also puts a second vote on Rad (formerly Juice) - not the mafia team.

51 indicates that BS/Meg is out.

Fancypants put Rad (Juice) at E-2 in 54. Unpaired.

I'd consider 61 unlikely to come from a partner. No more Fancypants/Meg then.

I think 79 and 108 clear Bellaphant (Bulbazoor)/Meg.

200 indicates Bellaphant (Bulbazoor)/BS200 is not the team.

After this I didn't see much else that I thought wasn't partner indicative - with regards to people's end of day scumpools or townreads I think mafia are more likely to put false associatives in there so I don't pay it as much heed. Just to recap then, here are the pairs I've ruled out:

Bellaphant/BS200
Bellaphant/Esires
Bellaphant/MegAzumarill
BS200/Fancypants
BS200/Esires
BS200/MegAzumarill
Esires/Fancypants
Esires/Rad
Fancypants/MegAzumarill
Fancypants/Rad

Or, in a different format:
Bellaphant pairs with Fancypants or Rad
BS200 pairs with Rad
Esires pairs with MegAzumarill
Fancypants pairs with Bellaphant
MegAzumarill pairs with Esires or Rad
Rad pairs with Bellaphant, BS200 or MegAzumarill

Practical conclusions to draw: Rad has partner equity with the most players.

Personally, I think it's probably Bellaphant with Rad, which also happens to be the 2 replacements. If both mafia did just randomly replace out then this game is pretty scuffed.

[furtiveglance]

[post=Rad]Rad[/post]

[furtiveglance]

[post=Rad]Rad[/post]

b r u h

VOTE: Rad

[furtiveglance]

repp me out. i refuse to play with Bulba

Did Juice and Bulbazoor argue before this? If not, why did Juice namedrop Bulbazoor? Can't believe I've just noticed this.

It involves another finished newbie game we were all in.

I'll post the link when I can get on something that isn't a phone.

Its the GTA themed newbie though. Nothing relevant really Bulba just self hammered as town and Juice was annoyed.

OHHHHHHHHHHH I read that game as well. Yeah ok. Ignore that speculation then. It was just insane to me that Juice suddenly hit page top and quit, with no in-thread precedent.

[furtiveglance]

2 more votes and I die, how fun.

The reason for my slightly mechanical look at partner equity between players was partly to explain my townread on Esires. They have so many clearing interactions with other players. They only pair with Meg, and I can't see the Esires/Meg scumteam because I can't imagine that Bellaphant and Rad are both town. If anyone can show me that Esires has partner equity with someone else, or point out where I've made a wrong call in 331, please do. Even reading any of the spoilered text would be appreciated, I'd like other people's thoughts. Or you could just ignore it and vote me, *ahem*.

[furtiveglance]

Still: can you walk me through your read on esires?

Why? You said you don't scumread them either. So neither of us would be trying to convince the other.

Because if you are paired we'd like your opinion for the record.

Haha. I guess "no comment" is in order.

Seriously though, I'm townreading esires. Have you ever done that before? Townread a player? I'm sure you have. And I'm sure you've had some other player in the lobby go "omg townread = paired mafia WE GOTTEM". It's just lazy.

[furtiveglance]

Anyway, aside from that, I had some thoughts on the game.

I'm finding it hard to articulate my thoughts on specific players and how I'm reading them based on posts, I feel it's too subjective. Instead, I'm going to make 2 assumptions (dangerous I know): 1) Mafia don't vote their partner apart from RVS and 2) Mafia don't hard townread their partner. I know these have exceptions sometimes but I'm going to use these 2 assumptions to eliminate some pairs and see what that leaves. I'll also just say if I think an interaction doesn't look scum/scum. If I don't like the results, I'll just ignore them.

Spoiler:

Posts 7, 8 and 10 for instance, aren't serious votes. So I don't see why mafia wouldn't RVS vote their partner, I'm not counting these votes.

Post 14 is something a mafia might ask their partner, I won't rule this possibility out.

15 from Fancypants is different, not the vote which I don't consider unpaired but the 2 reads which I do. So I'm going to rule out BS/Fancypants.

Posts 18 and 19 surely indicate that esires/Fancypants is not the mafia team.

I think 28 could be paired as there was no vote backing it up, and see no reason to rule out Fancypants/Meg.

In 39, Bellaphant (formerly Bulbazoor) puts esires at E-2 quite early on. Not paired in my eyes. There's also 76 in which Bulbazoor shades esires.

Based on 42 and 78, I don't think it's BS/esires. Esires also puts a second vote on Rad (formerly Juice) - not the mafia team.

51 indicates that BS/Meg is out.

Fancypants put Rad (Juice) at E-2 in 54. Unpaired.

I'd consider 61 unlikely to come from a partner. No more Fancypants/Meg then.

I think 79 and 108 clear Bellaphant (Bulbazoor)/Meg.

200 indicates Bellaphant (Bulbazoor)/BS200 is not the team.

After this I didn't see much else that I thought wasn't partner indicative - with regards to people's end of day scumpools or townreads I think mafia are more likely to put false associatives in there so I don't pay it as much heed. Just to recap then, here are the pairs I've ruled out:

Bellaphant/BS200
Bellaphant/Esires
Bellaphant/MegAzumarill
BS200/Fancypants
BS200/Esires
BS200/MegAzumarill
Esires/Fancypants
Esires/Rad
Fancypants/MegAzumarill
Fancypants/Rad

Or, in a different format:
Bellaphant pairs with Fancypants or Rad
BS200 pairs with Rad
Esires pairs with MegAzumarill
Fancypants pairs with Bellaphant
MegAzumarill pairs with Esires or Rad
Rad pairs with Bellaphant, BS200 or MegAzumarill

Practical conclusions to draw: Rad has partner equity with the most players.

Personally, I think it's probably Bellaphant with Rad, which also happens to be the 2 replacements. If both mafia did just randomly replace out then this game is pretty scuffed.

This feels divorced from context somewhat. The conclusion that it should be the slot that has had the least interaction in the game (through no fault of their own) is scum because they have the least non partnered actions with people isn't a great conclusion here.

This is a good point, but it could be that the slot giving out the least information about other players coincidentally also happens to be mafia.

[furtiveglance]

Anyway, aside from that, I had some thoughts on the game.

I'm finding it hard to articulate my thoughts on specific players and how I'm reading them based on posts, I feel it's too subjective. Instead, I'm going to make 2 assumptions (dangerous I know): 1) Mafia don't vote their partner apart from RVS and 2) Mafia don't hard townread their partner. I know these have exceptions sometimes but I'm going to use these 2 assumptions to eliminate some pairs and see what that leaves. I'll also just say if I think an interaction doesn't look scum/scum. If I don't like the results, I'll just ignore them.

Spoiler:

Posts 7, 8 and 10 for instance, aren't serious votes. So I don't see why mafia wouldn't RVS vote their partner, I'm not counting these votes.

Post 14 is something a mafia might ask their partner, I won't rule this possibility out.

15 from Fancypants is different, not the vote which I don't consider unpaired but the 2 reads which I do. So I'm going to rule out BS/Fancypants.

Posts 18 and 19 surely indicate that esires/Fancypants is not the mafia team.

I think 28 could be paired as there was no vote backing it up, and see no reason to rule out Fancypants/Meg.

In 39, Bellaphant (formerly Bulbazoor) puts esires at E-2 quite early on. Not paired in my eyes. There's also 76 in which Bulbazoor shades esires.

Based on 42 and 78, I don't think it's BS/esires. Esires also puts a second vote on Rad (formerly Juice) - not the mafia team.

51 indicates that BS/Meg is out.

Fancypants put Rad (Juice) at E-2 in 54. Unpaired.

I'd consider 61 unlikely to come from a partner. No more Fancypants/Meg then.

I think 79 and 108 clear Bellaphant (Bulbazoor)/Meg.

200 indicates Bellaphant (Bulbazoor)/BS200 is not the team.

After this I didn't see much else that I thought wasn't partner indicative - with regards to people's end of day scumpools or townreads I think mafia are more likely to put false associatives in there so I don't pay it as much heed. Just to recap then, here are the pairs I've ruled out:

Bellaphant/BS200
Bellaphant/Esires
Bellaphant/MegAzumarill
BS200/Fancypants
BS200/Esires
BS200/MegAzumarill
Esires/Fancypants
Esires/Rad
Fancypants/MegAzumarill
Fancypants/Rad

Or, in a different format:
Bellaphant pairs with Fancypants or Rad
BS200 pairs with Rad
Esires pairs with MegAzumarill
Fancypants pairs with Bellaphant
MegAzumarill pairs with Esires or Rad
Rad pairs with Bellaphant, BS200 or MegAzumarill

Practical conclusions to draw: Rad has partner equity with the most players.

Personally, I think it's probably Bellaphant with Rad, which also happens to be the 2 replacements. If both mafia did just randomly replace out then this game is pretty scuffed.

This feels divorced from context somewhat. The conclusion that it should be the slot that has had the least interaction in the game (through no fault of their own) is scum because they have the least non partnered actions with people isn't a great conclusion here.

Yeah I guess the real conclusion from his analysis was "Juice was low activity poster and so he's probably scum." I'm not against policy flips on low activity posters but you do have me now and I'm not low activity.

I think peta's earlier post is also relevant in why this analysis from furtive isn't great:

basically i think bs2000's "small hunch" bit in 152 where he's drawing a connection between players but not overtly suggesting they are teammates or whatever, reads like a very real thought to me, come across as someone legitimately thinking about the game. i do that sort of thing where i'll see an interaction and consider if it could possibly be a teammate interaction a lot, but i tend not to out it because you're very unlikely to be correct on those type of reads on day 1, especially in a game with only 2 scum. scum can fake arguments about people being teamed and often do because it's easier to argue associations, but the way bs2000 is doing that wasn't intent on selling anyone on voting juice, just "oh here's a thought i had, take note of this"

for bulbazoor 173 just reads very town to me. that looks like someone who is scumhunting. i believe the suspicion and he's pressuring his target to contribute rather than just calling for his head.

Using it as a lense for furtive's 331:

1. Everyone has these thoughts of potential pairings but it could be a tell on how you use the thought
2. 331 comes across to me as someone who's legitimately thinking about the game
3. Pairings are very unlikely to be correct reads on day 1 (where all these reads in his spoiler came from)
4. "scum can fake arguments about people being teamed and often do because it's easier to argue associations, but the way bs2000 is doing that wasn't intent on selling anyone on voting juice" - which is interesting because furtive's actually using this analysis to push me, as opposed to bs2000 who peta read as townie for not pushing. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with peta's view of how town/scum would approach this.

I lean towards disagreeing but also realize that peta's much more experienced than I am.

Something that's striking me as interesting in furtive's 331 is that most of the spoilered points come from the first 100 posts, so very early with a lot of RVS, and then it just jumps to 200 and stops like he got bored of finding evidence for his theory. Then it all lines up perfectly with Meg/Bella/Rad as the suspects. This could counter #2 above for me.

331's feeling much less townie now.

Why don't you find some telling interactions in the 200 to 300 range? Tell me what I missed or declined to comment on.

The bolded line is quite sinister to me. You're saying "I lean towards disagreeing" i.e. you don't think I'm scum using pre-flip associatives to push you but "peta's more experienced" i.e. petapan definitely would say that. In this way, you're putting words in a dead town's mouth, and appealing to authority by outsourcing the responsibility of calling me mafia to someone we all know is town. This is all highly irregular and deeply offensive to myself and petapan equally.

Finally, if your mini thought-progression on me was meant to look natural (ending with "much less townie now"), you need to try harder than that. This entire post is not written for me, or for your own organisation of thoughts, it's written for town who may be misled into voting for me. This is evidenced by your sneaky implication that petapan would want me gone, based on their theoretical post regarding a different player.

Make no mistake, if you do end up killing me, my blood is on your hands (as well as others' of course). Why don't you acknowledge that these are your thoughts and wishes, and yours alone?

[furtiveglance]

@meg, that's why I voted. It feels exactly like scum busy work with a really weird conclusion.

P-edit about half a dozen posts happened that I haven't processed.

It didn't take that long, and the conclusion was just the summation of my findings. You either disagree with the findings or nothing, because the conclusion was literally just me pointing out that Rad can have the most partners.

[furtiveglance]

Why don't you find some telling interactions in the 200 to 300 range? Tell me what I missed or declined to comment on.

Spoiler:

No thanks. I think your approach is bad and wouldn't want to continue it. My pointing this out was the fact that you supposedly felt your approach was good yet you stopped doing it very early and drew your conclusions based on only the first 100 posts were valid enough to push a vote on me.

The bolded line is quite sinister to me. You're saying "I lean towards disagreeing" i.e. you don't think I'm scum using pre-flip associatives to push you but "peta's more experienced" i.e. petapan definitely would say that. In this way, you're putting words in a dead town's mouth, and appealing to authority by outsourcing the responsibility of calling me mafia to someone we all know is town. This is all highly irregular and deeply offensive to myself and petapan equally.

Nah I'm not claiming peta would find you to be scum here. I'm pointing out that I disagree with his take on BS2000 and am curious because I feel like you're doing the opposite of what peta believed was townie of BS2000. I think it's perfectly reasonable to point out what a confirmed dead townie believed and even use it as a reference for building my own read, especially when they're likely to be the better player. I also doubt his read on this type of thing would be so black and white as to label BS2000 definitely town for it and you definitely scum for it.

Finally, if your mini thought-progression on me was meant to look natural (ending with "much less townie now"), you need to try harder than that. This entire post is not written for me, or for your own organisation of thoughts, it's written for town who may be misled into voting for me. This is evidenced by your sneaky implication that petapan would want me gone, based on their theoretical post regarding a different player.

Yeah my views on you have changed given more thought on it. 331 isn't some auto townie post after some additional thought. I still don't know if I find you to be more scummy or less from your 331. I'm thinking about it, and also throwing my thoughts out there for others to agree or disagree on. If you think my progression has been unnatural, feel free to keep that vote on me. If you're town, consider whether this is scum!Rad presenting things that can potentially get furtive mislimmed or town!Rad openly discussing thoughts with town to get other opinions on an unknown alignment furtive.

Make no mistake, if you do end up killing me, my blood is on your hands (as well as others' of course). Why don't you acknowledge that these are your thoughts and wishes, and yours alone?

Oh so very dramatic of you. But town!furtive can be very dramatic so ehhh. Let's get something straight furtive, I can openly lean on dead town's posts and still be town.

This post leaves a bad taste in my mouth, although I'm not quite sure why atm.

Yeah that's fine, just stir the pot a bit.

[furtiveglance]

I'll let some of y'all other playas talk before I post again.

[furtiveglance]

This game feels a bit sad because I've managed to become at odds with every active player.

[furtiveglance]

Maybe a couple more replacements and we'll have an active game.

VOTE: furtiveglance

I'll do some explaining tomorrow but I kind of want to vote here for now.

It's past tomorrow, wanna do some explaining for that vote?

Maybe Meg was preparing to fake a guilty on me if I had one on them! But I don't have a guilty.

[furtiveglance]

I thought I'd do some more 'busy work' since the last post went down really well

I'll do some dreaded 'VCA' (or just checking out everyone's reasons for voting BBT).

Spoiler:

First one is on Crabulous, whom BBT replaced, from Rad (Juice) in 10. This seems to be an 'RVS' vote as it is accompanied by a 'lol'. Not much to read into here.

Petapan

then gets on BBT in 89. 90 would imply that petapan voted someone outside of their townreads (perhaps Meg, Esires and me at the time).

MegAzumarill is the 3rd voter of BBT in 109, citing BBT voting BS200 without explanation in 100.

It's at this point (113) that petapan moves to BS200, and BBT is back on 2 votes (Rad (Juice), MegAzumarill).

BS200 puts BBT back up to 3 votes in 123, seemingly retaliating to BBT criticising their "no newbies" comment.
My own take on this is that mafia probably wouldn't feel salty about there being no newbies in a game, and also that the kind of player who would notice this and mention it would probably do so as town or as mafia. As for the omgus, what sticks out to me is the votecount at the time (3 each for BS200 and BBT). As soon as BS200 became the highest wagon they made it even. I can see a survivalist mentality behind that, especially given the lack of a scumread on BBT beforehand. They had only sussed Meg and Petapan previously, voting Meg in RVS and then being ok with it later.

The next development is Juice unvoting BBT in 128. This is unexplained.

I vote BBT in 138 - E-2.

Esires puts BBT at E-1 in 212. The justification given is this infamous "no newbies" remark (66 from BS200) which BBT scumreads in 114. Esires calls it 'a stretch', that could even be 'distancing'. Personally, I don't think I'd consider bussing between BBT and BS200 so early on in the game, so it's surprising that Esires is seriously considering this.

Meg briefly unvotes BBT to vote Esires before being told by petapan that Esires is inactive. Meg then gets back on BBT (289).

Petapan

hammers in 299.

Conclusion: clearing Petapan and myself, BS200, Esires and Meg ended the day on BBT. I'd say Meg's reasoning in 109 is fair enough, so if there's scum on the wagon I'd say BS200.

[furtiveglance]

I'm most happy voting BBT for now.

VOTE: BBT

This vote strikes me as the worst vote on BBT, no shame on being on a town wagon but it's more the manner, same goes for Megazumaril here:

Not sure how I feel about bbt but it trends downward.
VOTE: BBT

BS2000 and Peta also vote and scumread BBT but it's justified.

Again I don't scumread people for being on town wagons, but it's the

manner

of the hop that concerns me.

It was how I felt at the time - most happy voting BBT. I had townreads, and he wasn't one. I didn't feel the need to make a huge post about it. Why don't you read what I said about BS200's vote on BBT - I feel like the justification was mostly omgus and self-preservation. It also marked a change of direction for them - they had previously shaded MegAzumarill and petapan.

[furtiveglance]

Just a quick pagetop fyi - my reads are changing.

[furtiveglance]

Spoiler:

VOTE: MegAzumarill

i can probably guess why you're doing this but explain it anyway?

It was actually a serious vote rather than plainly RTing, I left it naked to see what the reaction would be. Meg already felt different from Mewbie 2092 in this game, more jokey in a way.

This strikes me as an odd way to try and approach this. If you especially since you had already shown concern for the lack of posting trying to move the game forward by posting a serious vote not labelled as such strikes me as counterintuitive.

Lol a Newbie game with no true newbs in it now.

@Mod can we get a current votecount?

I think we have 3 on Juice and 3 on esires?

Starting to get townvibes from Meg's exchange with FancyPants. Need to see more from Juice/Bulba/BBT. There's scum somewhere in there.

This is the kind of post that I'd probably make as scum, feels a bit safe. Maybe with your partner in the 3 'sus' players but never follow up on it.

This stirs the pot and keeps attention away from furtive, while not prompting any kind of interaction between BS and furtive. It's weak and directionless and doesn't have the intent to decipher alignment.

Hi guys, any questions for me?

The only times furtive has ever prompted a response are entirely defensive. In this post as well as another addressing Rad, the only times furtive has inquired of another, have been in ways so that either are about furtive, or his thoughts. I see no intent in actually solving or trying to determine alignment through any form of inquiry.

Alright.

BS made a post saying something along the lines of 'A newbie game with no newbies in' and this came across to me like scum complaining that they have no newbies and as such are at a disadvantage.

I don't think this is towny Rad. I feel like this is one of those votes that just happens to be mafia and we lucked out on this one.

Once again, even when pushing a scumread instead of putting an argument together instead furtiveglance lashes himself onto an observation. They don't put together cases that could be analysed or scumreads that can be challenged. They work in vague weak arguments while being concerned about their own slot more than the game around them.

Overall furtiveglance's play day 1 has read as both overinformed through lack of inquisition, and unreasoned, through lack of evidence. It reads like scum making filler to not go over the edge for lurking and looking just invested enough to get by.

Furtive, could you explain your thought processes on your reads over the course of day 1? (as well as currently)

"The only times furtive has ever prompted a response are entirely defensive". Do you mean I only respond when defending myself? That hasn't been the case. I don't feel I've really been attacked much this game, the votes on me are usually silent apart from this post. As for "being concerned about their own slot", I'm more interested and likely to respond to posts about me. I think that's human nature, and definitely how I play. If I see some other players arguing I usually won't get involved, or I won't find it interesting until a later point (or never).

My past reads have been explained enough for me, if you want more explanation be more specific. As for my current reads, I need more time to work out what they are.

[furtiveglance]

I'm gonna say Fancypants is exploring the game too openly to be mafia (pls stop scumreading me!).

[furtiveglance]

Alright.

BS made a post saying something along the lines of 'A newbie game with no newbies in' and this came across to me like scum complaining that they have no newbies and as such are at a disadvantage.

I don't think this is towny Rad. I feel like this is one of those votes that just happens to be mafia and we lucked out on this one.

@Furtive can you explain this I don't understand what you're saying.

You know in mafia games, when a few town just happen to jump on a mafia and it's great? That's what I thought happened with BBT. I think Rad townread BBT or something and I disagreed.

[furtiveglance]

331 from Furtive, is the busy work where he pairs people. I kinda like that kind of effort post but I don't agree with the assumptions and it's not really the "good" kind of effort post that gets us closer to scum IMO.

Do you just think "throw it all out because scum might bus/shade their partner/whatever"? Have you actually read my individual points? I think there's some decent stuff in there.

[furtiveglance]

Spoiler:

VOTE: MegAzumarill

i can probably guess why you're doing this but explain it anyway?

It was actually a serious vote rather than plainly RTing, I left it naked to see what the reaction would be. Meg already felt different from Mewbie 2092 in this game, more jokey in a way.

This strikes me as an odd way to try and approach this. If you especially since you had already shown concern for the lack of posting trying to move the game forward by posting a serious vote not labelled as such strikes me as counterintuitive.

Lol a Newbie game with no true newbs in it now.

@Mod can we get a current votecount?

I think we have 3 on Juice and 3 on esires?

Starting to get townvibes from Meg's exchange with FancyPants. Need to see more from Juice/Bulba/BBT. There's scum somewhere in there.

This is the kind of post that I'd probably make as scum, feels a bit safe. Maybe with your partner in the 3 'sus' players but never follow up on it.

This stirs the pot and keeps attention away from furtive, while not prompting any kind of interaction between BS and furtive. It's weak and directionless and doesn't have the intent to decipher alignment.

Hi guys, any questions for me?

The only times furtive has ever prompted a response are entirely defensive. In this post as well as another addressing Rad, the only times furtive has inquired of another, have been in ways so that either are about furtive, or his thoughts. I see no intent in actually solving or trying to determine alignment through any form of inquiry.

Alright.

BS made a post saying something along the lines of 'A newbie game with no newbies in' and this came across to me like scum complaining that they have no newbies and as such are at a disadvantage.

I don't think this is towny Rad. I feel like this is one of those votes that just happens to be mafia and we lucked out on this one.

Once again, even when pushing a scumread instead of putting an argument together instead furtiveglance lashes himself onto an observation. They don't put together cases that could be analysed or scumreads that can be challenged. They work in vague weak arguments while being concerned about their own slot more than the game around them.

Overall furtiveglance's play day 1 has read as both overinformed through lack of inquisition, and unreasoned, through lack of evidence. It reads like scum making filler to not go over the edge for lurking and looking just invested enough to get by.

Furtive, could you explain your thought processes on your reads over the course of day 1? (as well as currently)

"The only times furtive has ever prompted a response are entirely defensive". Do you mean I only respond when defending myself? That hasn't been the case. I don't feel I've really been attacked much this game, the votes on me are usually silent apart from this post. As for "being concerned about their own slot", I'm more interested and likely to respond to posts about me. I think that's human nature, and definitely how I play. If I see some other players arguing I usually won't get involved, or I won't find it interesting until a later point (or never).

My past reads have been explained enough for me, if you want more explanation be more specific. As for my current reads, I need more time to work out what they are.

I defined what I was talking about as being not just being concerned with tour own slot, but a lack of concern with other slots. It's town's nature to try to figure out other's slots, and not scum's.

Stating a read isn't explaining it. Saying its because of a post and leaving it at that is also not explaining it.

If you think "it's because of a post" isn't good enough, you're gonna be left frustrated with literally every player on this website in every game. If you really want to know more of my thoughts, ask about a specific player or a specific post. Otherwise, you have no grounds to call me uncommunicative because I don't want to run down literally all of my thoughts so far this game and write an essay about it for your convenience.

[furtiveglance]

Still: can you walk me through your read on esires?

Why? You said you don't scumread them either. So neither of us would be trying to convince the other.

Because if you are paired we'd like your opinion for the record.

Haha. I guess "no comment" is in order.

Seriously though, I'm townreading esires. Have you ever done that before? Townread a player? I'm sure you have. And I'm sure you've had some other player in the lobby go "omg townread = paired mafia WE GOTTEM". It's just lazy.

I don't think this is lazy he was specifically looking for a

reason

for your townread on esires not saying you were scum because of him. I think this is a dishonest interpretation of their viewpoint.

It was a response to you - your post clearly suggested that we were paired, joking or not.

[furtiveglance]

I think I made some good insights in 331, and other town would benefit from commenting on the individual interactions I mentioned (there aren't that many of them). If we keep the discussion in the game theory zone, it won't help us at all.

[furtiveglance]

Spoiler:

VOTE: MegAzumarill

i can probably guess why you're doing this but explain it anyway?

It was actually a serious vote rather than plainly RTing, I left it naked to see what the reaction would be. Meg already felt different from Mewbie 2092 in this game, more jokey in a way.

This strikes me as an odd way to try and approach this. If you especially since you had already shown concern for the lack of posting trying to move the game forward by posting a serious vote not labelled as such strikes me as counterintuitive.

Lol a Newbie game with no true newbs in it now.

@Mod can we get a current votecount?

I think we have 3 on Juice and 3 on esires?

Starting to get townvibes from Meg's exchange with FancyPants. Need to see more from Juice/Bulba/BBT. There's scum somewhere in there.

This is the kind of post that I'd probably make as scum, feels a bit safe. Maybe with your partner in the 3 'sus' players but never follow up on it.

This stirs the pot and keeps attention away from furtive, while not prompting any kind of interaction between BS and furtive. It's weak and directionless and doesn't have the intent to decipher alignment.

Hi guys, any questions for me?

The only times furtive has ever prompted a response are entirely defensive. In this post as well as another addressing Rad, the only times furtive has inquired of another, have been in ways so that either are about furtive, or his thoughts. I see no intent in actually solving or trying to determine alignment through any form of inquiry.

Alright.

BS made a post saying something along the lines of 'A newbie game with no newbies in' and this came across to me like scum complaining that they have no newbies and as such are at a disadvantage.

I don't think this is towny Rad. I feel like this is one of those votes that just happens to be mafia and we lucked out on this one.

Once again, even when pushing a scumread instead of putting an argument together instead furtiveglance lashes himself onto an observation. They don't put together cases that could be analysed or scumreads that can be challenged. They work in vague weak arguments while being concerned about their own slot more than the game around them.

Overall furtiveglance's play day 1 has read as both overinformed through lack of inquisition, and unreasoned, through lack of evidence. It reads like scum making filler to not go over the edge for lurking and looking just invested enough to get by.

Furtive, could you explain your thought processes on your reads over the course of day 1? (as well as currently)

"The only times furtive has ever prompted a response are entirely defensive". Do you mean I only respond when defending myself? That hasn't been the case. I don't feel I've really been attacked much this game, the votes on me are usually silent apart from this post. As for "being concerned about their own slot", I'm more interested and likely to respond to posts about me. I think that's human nature, and definitely how I play. If I see some other players arguing I usually won't get involved, or I won't find it interesting until a later point (or never).

My past reads have been explained enough for me, if you want more explanation be more specific. As for my current reads, I need more time to work out what they are.

I defined what I was talking about as being not just being concerned with tour own slot, but a lack of concern with other slots. It's town's nature to try to figure out other's slots, and not scum's.

Stating a read isn't explaining it. Saying its because of a post and leaving it at that is also not explaining it.

If you think "it's because of a post" isn't good enough, you're gonna be left frustrated with literally every player on this website in every game. If you really want to know more of my thoughts, ask about a specific player or a specific post. Otherwise, you have no grounds to call me uncommunicative because I don't want to run down literally all of my thoughts so far this game and write an essay about it for your convenience.

Saying just because of a post isn't enough. It just isn't. Talking about why that post makes you think that way is what I'm looking for, and you haven't provided

And you haven't provided any specific questions. You're asking me to ISO myself and provide running commentary on everything I've said this game, which I don't want to do because it's a waste of time. This is your last chance to give examples of where I haven't explained enough, or clarify that you just generally want to see my thought process (and if that's the case giving me an example to explain will the do the job well enough anyway).

I'm beginning to think that you're talking at me for the benefit of others rather than actually listening to what I'm saying, which is not a pleasant experience.

[furtiveglance]

OK fully caught up, sorry for making the last few pages so confusing but people started posting while I was spewing.

@Furtive
I'm not sure I agree that 331 has good insight, I have to agree that the assumptions underlying are flawed.

I like this post a lot better:

I thought I'd do some more 'busy work' since the last post went down really well

I'll do some dreaded 'VCA' (or just checking out everyone's reasons for voting BBT).

Spoiler:

First one is on Crabulous, whom BBT replaced, from Rad (Juice) in 10. This seems to be an 'RVS' vote as it is accompanied by a 'lol'. Not much to read into here.

Petapan

then gets on BBT in 89. 90 would imply that petapan voted someone outside of their townreads (perhaps Meg, Esires and me at the time).

MegAzumarill is the 3rd voter of BBT in 109, citing BBT voting BS200 without explanation in 100.

PEDIT:
I'll comment on the Megazumaril case, I don't hate it but tl:dr it's basically just that FG has done some coasting up until recently, which I kinda agree with but doesn't actually say much I've done similar and so has Meg themselves.

It's at this point (113) that petapan moves to BS200, and BBT is back on 2 votes (Rad (Juice), MegAzumarill).

BS200 puts BBT back up to 3 votes in 123, seemingly retaliating to BBT criticising their "no newbies" comment.
My own take on this is that mafia probably wouldn't feel salty about there being no newbies in a game, and also that the kind of player who would notice this and mention it would probably do so as town or as mafia. As for the omgus, what sticks out to me is the votecount at the time (3 each for BS200 and BBT). As soon as BS200 became the highest wagon they made it even. I can see a survivalist mentality behind that, especially given the lack of a scumread on BBT beforehand. They had only sussed Meg and Petapan previously, voting Meg in RVS and then being ok with it later.

The next development is Juice unvoting BBT in 128. This is unexplained.

I vote BBT in 138 - E-2.

Esires puts BBT at E-1 in 212. The justification given is this infamous "no newbies" remark (66 from BS200) which BBT scumreads in 114. Esires calls it 'a stretch', that could even be 'distancing'. Personally, I don't think I'd consider bussing between BBT and BS200 so early on in the game, so it's surprising that Esires is seriously considering this.

Meg briefly unvotes BBT to vote Esires before being told by petapan that Esires is inactive. Meg then gets back on BBT (289).

Petapan

hammers in 299.

Conclusion: clearing Petapan and myself, BS200, Esires and Meg ended the day on BBT.

I'd say Meg's reasoning in 109 is fair enough,

so if there's scum on the wagon I'd say BS200.

Except I disagree with the bolded bit above, why do you think that vote in 109 was fair enough?

My favourite vote is actually VOTE: Esires

Although I'm not super sold on any reads thus far, superficially from town to scum my reads go something like:
Bellaphant
Rad
BS2000
furtiveglance
MegAzumarill
esires

But I'm not super confident, kinda a hard game in that I usually have 2 or 3 VERY strong town reads at this point and I don't really.

Anyone wanna argue with me about my order?

How am I so far down? Seriously. I am literally begging you to move me up even one space.

[furtiveglance]

OK fully caught up, sorry for making the last few pages so confusing but people started posting while I was spewing.

@Furtive
I'm not sure I agree that 331 has good insight, I have to agree that the assumptions underlying are flawed.

I like this post a lot better:

I thought I'd do some more 'busy work' since the last post went down really well

I'll do some dreaded 'VCA' (or just checking out everyone's reasons for voting BBT).

Spoiler:

First one is on Crabulous, whom BBT replaced, from Rad (Juice) in 10. This seems to be an 'RVS' vote as it is accompanied by a 'lol'. Not much to read into here.

Petapan

then gets on BBT in 89. 90 would imply that petapan voted someone outside of their townreads (perhaps Meg, Esires and me at the time).

MegAzumarill is the 3rd voter of BBT in 109, citing BBT voting BS200 without explanation in 100.

PEDIT:
I'll comment on the Megazumaril case, I don't hate it but tl:dr it's basically just that FG has done some coasting up until recently, which I kinda agree with but doesn't actually say much I've done similar and so has Meg themselves.

It's at this point (113) that petapan moves to BS200, and BBT is back on 2 votes (Rad (Juice), MegAzumarill).

BS200 puts BBT back up to 3 votes in 123, seemingly retaliating to BBT criticising their "no newbies" comment.
My own take on this is that mafia probably wouldn't feel salty about there being no newbies in a game, and also that the kind of player who would notice this and mention it would probably do so as town or as mafia. As for the omgus, what sticks out to me is the votecount at the time (3 each for BS200 and BBT). As soon as BS200 became the highest wagon they made it even. I can see a survivalist mentality behind that, especially given the lack of a scumread on BBT beforehand. They had only sussed Meg and Petapan previously, voting Meg in RVS and then being ok with it later.

The next development is Juice unvoting BBT in 128. This is unexplained.

I vote BBT in 138 - E-2.

Esires puts BBT at E-1 in 212. The justification given is this infamous "no newbies" remark (66 from BS200) which BBT scumreads in 114. Esires calls it 'a stretch', that could even be 'distancing'. Personally, I don't think I'd consider bussing between BBT and BS200 so early on in the game, so it's surprising that Esires is seriously considering this.

Meg briefly unvotes BBT to vote Esires before being told by petapan that Esires is inactive. Meg then gets back on BBT (289).

Petapan

hammers in 299.

Conclusion: clearing Petapan and myself, BS200, Esires and Meg ended the day on BBT.

I'd say Meg's reasoning in 109 is fair enough,

so if there's scum on the wagon I'd say BS200.

Except I disagree with the bolded bit above,

why do you think that vote in 109 was fair enough?

My favourite vote is actually VOTE: Esires

Although I'm not super sold on any reads thus far, superficially from town to scum my reads go something like:
Bellaphant
Rad
BS2000
furtiveglance
MegAzumarill
esires

But I'm not super confident, kinda a hard game in that I usually have 2 or 3 VERY strong town reads at this point and I don't really.

Anyone wanna argue with me about my order?

There was a precedent to it. If you'd read the spoilered text in 373 you'd know. 111 points to the unexplained vote by BBT on BS200 in 100, which I think is understandably voteworthy. BS200's reasoning for the vote was unprecedented - it didn't line up with their earlier stated reads.

[furtiveglance]

Additionally, I don't think giving specific posts is particularly conducive here since scum!furtive and town!furtive respond to it in the same way here, and particular posts aren't my gripe.

My problem is the idea that there's no evidence of the reasoning in the moment when it was most beneficial to scum!furtive for there not to be.

Are you admitting that you just wanted to shade me? I thought you were really interested!

[furtiveglance]

I know I haven't made a case on anyone yet, and that's bad townplay. I apologise. I'm guessing that BS200/Esires will probably be replaced and we'll have extra time, so no huge rush. When I get on later I will do a big readslist and vote someone meaningfully. For now,

UNVOTE: Rad

[furtiveglance]

Here it is then, the big readslist. I'll even colour code it, with me in

green

to try to trick you guys into townreading me(!) and it's town at the top in the usual way.

Fancypants

:

Spoiler:

Voting: Esires (RVS, 15), Rad (Juice) (probably for lurking, 54), Esires (POE, 'not caring' about voting

scum

, 284), Esires (402)

Reads: BS200

town

- 15, 153, 277, 372,

Furtive

town

- 15, then

scum

in 277, then

town

in 354, then

scum

in 372, then

town

in 429,

BBT

town

- 153, 178, 185, 277, Esires

town

- 153, then

scum

in 277, 284, 301, 372, 402, Bella (Bulba)

town

- 277, then scum in 293, 298, back to town in 365, 370, 372, Rad

town

- 354, 402, Meg

town

- 61, then

scum

in 363, 372, 402.

Thoughts: Heir to

Petapan

's throne, almost unpushable

town

. I stake my reputation (not much of a reputation to lose!) on this user being

town

. They have put out so much agenda-free analysis this game, it's really commendable. All of the towntells are here - scumhunting, moving the game forward, desire to understand other players, everything. A very open player. I will never vote here.

BS200

('s replacement):

Spoiler:

Voting: Meg (RVS, 8), BBT ('no newbies' gate, 123)

Reads: Meg

scum

- 51, then Meg

town

- 66, 123, 152, 200,

Petapan

town

- 51, then

Petapan

'

performative

' - 87, '

confusing

' - 123,

BBT

scum

- 123, 152.

Thoughts: I was reading 200 when I realised BS200 was

town

. How poetic. I was about to call them

scum

for their nonsensical progressions on

Petapan

and Meg, and strange omgus on BBT. But

scum

doesn't usually set up a push on a player and then change on a dime, not in my experience. I want to say more but that's it for me. There's no agenda to their play. Tonally as well, their thoughts look unguarded and natural. I'll have to keep this one short.

Esires

(' replacement):

Spoiler:

Voting:

Petapan

(MACTEPOK) (RVS, 11), Rad (Juice) (get a wagon rolling, 42) BS200 (contradictory read on

Petapan

, 78),

BBT

(no newbies gate, stretch or distancing, 212)

Reads: BS200

scum

- 78, 129, 212, 235, Meg

town

- 78, Fancy

town

- 78,

BBT

scum

- 129, 149, 212, Bella (Bulba)

scum

- 129,

Petapan

town

- 149, 212

Thoughts: I'm worried that my ability to honestly read this slot has been hamstrung by people suggesting us as the

mafia

team, which makes me illogically protective by instinct. Much was made of 17's "If it's me, it's me". To me this reads more

town

than

scum

, but not by much. "Slightly more than rand

town

" is what

Petapan

said. I find that I keep coming back to this vote on

BBT

, with the suggestion of them being paired with BS200. This read is quite bizarre, and frankly terrible in hindsight. If you take into account the burgeoning suspicion on Esires at the time that he puts a nail in BBT's coffin, it does look

scummy

. However, the side of the fence I'm landing on is that this 'distancing' justification is something

town

thinks about, and perhaps too strange to come from

mafia

.

Rad

(formerly Juice):

Spoiler:

Voting: Crabulous (RVS, 10),

Petapan

(Omgus, squeaking like scum (!), 146)

Reads:

Petapan

scum

- 146, then

town

in 237, 253, 258. Actually just read 237 and 253, it's pretty much this: 'peta and meg at town, esires

town lean

, furtive and fancy at

null

, bulba and bbt

scum lean

, bs2000 at

scum

'. 258 is the same with Bella (Bulba) and Fancy

down

.

Thoughts: I was deceived by Rad's effort posting in Newbie 2097, but this game does feel like a different Rad - as Fancypants said in 354. It feels like Rad is really thinking hard about the game. Having said that, probably the weakest of my townreads, and I'd like to see where his vote lands.

Bellaphant

(formerly Bulbazoor (formerly Yericky(!)))

Spoiler:

Voting: Bulba votes Esires (RVS, 39), Bella votes

Furtive

(Bad vote on

BBT

, not sussing Esires, 'busy work'(?), 337)

Reads: Bulba calls

Petapan

town

- 39, 103, 106, 124, Bella says

Petapan

null

- 241, Bulba calls

Furtive

scum

- 73, 85, 86, Bella agrees - 276, 322, 337, Bulba calls

BBT

scum

- 121, 147, Bella has

BBT

null

- 283, Bulba

does not townread

Meg - 194, Bellaphant agrees - 276, Bella calls BS200 and Fancy

town

- 241, Bella

does not scumread

Esires - 322 - but

would elim

Esires - 357.

Thoughts: There are 2 reasons that I suspect this slot. The first is that they heavily townread the Night 1 kill,

Petapan

. They weren't the only player to do so but did so quite effusively and also immediately (

Petapan

had only posted 4 times before 39). The second reason is that Bella's reads line up with Bulba's in the main. Not the

townreads

(townread, really - Bulba only gave

Petapan

town status), but the

scumreads

(or, more precisely, the preferred eliminations). Bulba never voted after RVS but threatened

BBT

with a vote in 173. On replacing in, Bella found the

BBT

wagon 'inorganic' yet was still 'fine with' the vote, citing the promise of 'a ton of info from the flip'. Bella also follows up Bulba's prolonged suspicion of

me

. Now with the privilege of knowing my own alignment, the question I have to ask myself is: Was I really so scummy that 2 different

town

players (sharing a slot) had me as a strong

scumread

? I think the answer is that it's definitely possible. I wasn't very active or engaged for a time, partly busy IRL. And the fact that several players are

scumreading

me

at present shows that I haven't played an objectively

towny

game. But the chances of Bella's reads matching Bulba's so closely is something I can't quite get over. What I'm considering is that these voting preferences are decided by the necessity of avoiding a partner rather than the earnest guess at a

mafia

.

MegAzumarill

:

Spoiler:

Voting: Esires (RVS, 7),

BBT

(unexplained vote on BS200, 109), Esires (reaction test (?) (see 388), 285),

BBT

(289),

Furtive

(313, explained in 376)

Reads: Bella (Bulba)

town

- 108, 136,

BBT

scum

- 109, 111, BS200

town

- 136,

Petapan

town

- 136,

Furtive

town

- 136, then

scum

in 313, 376

Thoughts: For one of the highest posters, Meg's ISO is shockingly empty. You can count the posts in which they share their own thoughts on other players on the fingers of one hand. All they do is ask questions of other players.

Town

certainly doesn't usually play like this. I view their current push on me as opportunistic, agenda-driven and I seem to be the only player in the game they like to talk about at the moment. I would be very surprised if Meg was

town

this game. Very surprised indeed.

Conclusion: I wAs RiGhT tHe FiRsT tImE. I said my reads were changing earlier, and they WERE, but they changed back.

VOTE: MegAzumarill

[furtiveglance]

Anyway, aside from that, I had some thoughts on the game.

I'm finding it hard to articulate my thoughts on specific players and how I'm reading them based on posts, I feel it's too subjective. Instead, I'm going to make 2 assumptions (dangerous I know): 1) Mafia don't vote their partner apart from RVS and 2) Mafia don't hard townread their partner. I know these have exceptions sometimes but I'm going to use these 2 assumptions to eliminate some pairs and see what that leaves. I'll also just say if I think an interaction doesn't look scum/scum. If I don't like the results, I'll just ignore them.

Spoiler:

Posts 7, 8 and 10 for instance, aren't serious votes. So I don't see why mafia wouldn't RVS vote their partner, I'm not counting these votes.

Post 14 is something a mafia might ask their partner, I won't rule this possibility out.

15 from Fancypants is different, not the vote which I don't consider unpaired but the 2 reads which I do. So I'm going to rule out BS/Fancypants.

Posts 18 and 19 surely indicate that esires/Fancypants is not the mafia team.

I think 28 could be paired as there was no vote backing it up, and see no reason to rule out Fancypants/Meg.

In 39, Bellaphant (formerly Bulbazoor) puts esires at E-2 quite early on. Not paired in my eyes. There's also 76 in which Bulbazoor shades esires.

Based on 42 and 78, I don't think it's BS/esires. Esires also puts a second vote on Rad (formerly Juice) - not the mafia team.

51 indicates that BS/Meg is out.

Fancypants put Rad (Juice) at E-2 in 54. Unpaired.

I'd consider 61 unlikely to come from a partner. No more Fancypants/Meg then.

I think 79 and 108 clear Bellaphant (Bulbazoor)/Meg.

200 indicates Bellaphant (Bulbazoor)/BS200 is not the team.

After this I didn't see much else that I thought wasn't partner indicative - with regards to people's end of day scumpools or townreads I think mafia are more likely to put false associatives in there so I don't pay it as much heed. Just to recap then, here are the pairs I've ruled out:

Bellaphant/BS200
Bellaphant/Esires
Bellaphant/MegAzumarill
BS200/Fancypants
BS200/Esires
BS200/MegAzumarill
Esires/Fancypants
Esires/Rad
Fancypants/MegAzumarill
Fancypants/Rad

Or, in a different format:
Bellaphant pairs with Fancypants or Rad
BS200 pairs with Rad
Esires pairs with MegAzumarill
Fancypants pairs with Bellaphant
MegAzumarill pairs with Esires or Rad
Rad pairs with Bellaphant, BS200 or MegAzumarill

Practical conclusions to draw: Rad has partner equity with the most players.

Personally, I think it's probably Bellaphant with Rad, which also happens to be the 2 replacements. If both mafia did just randomly replace out then this game is pretty scuffed.

Rad, I'm going to insist that 200 from BS200 about Bella (Bulba) is not a partner interaction, even in the unlikely scenario of scum!BS200. In this post I also said that 79 and 108 made it unlikely for Bella and Meg to be paired. Looking back now, 79 is actually perfectly reasonable as scum/scum (questioning a TR on your partner), but I can't get over 108 - would Meg have casually towned their partner as mafia? Maybe one of my townreads is wrong.

[furtiveglance]

Furtive, you confuse me so much. Reading through the conclusions, I kinda see where you are going, but then the place In your reads list doesn't seem to match what you've just said - this sticks out most for esires and bs00,- can you talk to me a bit more about them?

Also, I don't think your read sharing thing between me and bulba is true/fair - I was implying that I thought peta was scummy (controversial, but everyone piling on a tr actually felt a bit Sus, I didn't see it /that/ much), so your point about the night kill also feels weird. Also, people scum reading you isn't that weird, sorry

With the bbt thing, I just felt the elim was invevitable - and I do think that wagon is really interesting. If you aren't scum, then I'd look much harder at the other votes on it.


I dunno, can you come poke holes in this? I find your shorter posts really scummy, I find some of your longer explanations really weird and self reinforcing, which I think is my biggest issue with the stuff about the partners, but then some things you say I find myself agreeing with.

Ugh.

Man's on the bus rn, so no links to posts.

On the subject of complex reads regarding BS200 and Esires:
I wanted to convey my journey, rather than just the destination. I think I explained my thoughts in enough detail. I'm basically saying could be scum, but only if playing really weirdly and it's not likely.

On the subject of Bulbaphant:
I said that you switched it up on Petapan in my list, you're not giving me new info here. Furthermore, I made a point of saying matching scumreads was the problem, because the elimination is all the matters, there's nothing you can 'do' with a townread. And there's literally a perfect match.

On the subject of 'my predecessor townread the NK but I didn't':
NK analysis always kinda sucks but it's something I've seen and done before, townread + kill a town who gives you the heebie jeebies. Why townread them first? Towncred for having one correct townread I guess. As for "I scumread Petapan", that characterisation of events may be true in your own head (if you're town), but it's not objectively true. You said you didn't get all the townreads on them. You never quoted their sus posts, or voted them, so that doesn't count as scumreading them in thread. And yes I know the point you're making is 'why did I kill my scumread how big brain of me' but that doesn't clear you of killing the N1 kill, it just means you didn't townread + kill them.

On the subject of staying off a town wagon, but being fine with it, but scumreading the people on it:
I'll refer you to Fancy's words on the subject earlier, which I agree with. Staying off the wagon while suggesting bussing makes you clear either way: a fool's choice of sorts. BBT elimination was avoidable; there was appetite for Esires too. And I've spoken before about 'info' from town eliminations. It's always redundant, especially in this case. Imagine this scenario: Town is getting voted out by mostly town, with only one half counterwagon. Do you, Mafia McScum, a) vote this town? b) stay off to look good when they flip? The answer is obviously c) Who cares, this is great! Not every dead town was killed by mafia.

There you go, I poked some holes.

[furtiveglance]

Yes UK. No buses stateside? And yes I like board games. I see you trying to buddy me talking about nice things!

[furtiveglance]

Yes UK. No buses stateside? And yes I like board games. I see you trying to buddy me talking about nice things!

Ok,back to interrogation!
Why is wagon info useless?
Why esires and bs00 above rad on your list?

"Wagon info" is a vague term. I think VCA can be useful if you look at each person's reason for voting - that's what I did, remember? What I don't think is useful/good/towny is going "ooooooohhhhh. A town was just voted out. Let's look at the voters". Which is what you've done, and you've done nothing else. You said to me "If you're town, look at the other voters". Which ones? At least 3 town voted BBT, I'd guess at least 4 since I know Petapan and me are town. You can't just go "oh wow this gives us massive info guys, this is huge". Because what you're implying is that scum was all over this town vote, and I already explained that there's no reason that scum has to play that way in that situation.

Rad is yet to vote anyone. All game. I explained that I came to the BS200 and Esires conclusions myself, with Rad there's less content (Juice replaced out) and I'm also relying on Fancy's read on Rad a bit. So it's not as strong a read.

[furtiveglance]

Ok, I think you read a lot of weird/scummy intent into things I've said - I didn't say what you proposed around the nk and I haven't said that about the vote: I think vca is really useful especially in the later game. I understand that just pointing at a town wagon and going 'ooo' is bad, but again, that's not what I did - I didn't really understand the wagon in the first place and it would be really weird if the wagon was pure -

the whole wagon felt opportunistic

. At the time, I disliked your vote the most because it felt it had the least context, but I remember rad saying you were just really confident, which I didn't pick up. My next step is to go back and re-read the reasons on my own.

@rad, any questions my way?

This is the last I'll say on this VCA/info debate because I feel like we're missing each other slightly. The bolded is what I take issue with. The 'whole wagon' wasn't opportunistic, if I'm correctly inferring

MAFIA

from 'opportunistic'. The scumteam has 2 people, not 5. You then specified that my vote was the worst, ok, fine you're consistent with finding the wagon sus yesterday, great. But now there's a new problem for me: you're using the town elimination to propel a push on town (me) who voted BBT yesterday. I wasn't that confident on BBT btw, I thought there was a decent chance they were mafia but I wasn't sure.

[furtiveglance]

Which was in response to my post here:

To clarify, I'm not voting bbt right this second. Maybe I do tomorrow when I'm caught up. So far my only issue is 114 and I will not hammer for that at this point. Gnight!

Yeah I wasn't just voting BBT for a strange read. It was more like a poe sus, I only quoted that because you said it showed town mindset or something.

I'm gonna stop posting here until the cavalry arrives.

[furtiveglance]

@FG, Can you stop being so scary please and thank you. Also for the record I disagree with 442.

You keep saying this. In order to convince you that I am not a scary player, because I think you're town, I will now reveal my win/loss ratio so far on this site.

Don't look if you don't want to feel a sudden pang of empathy/pity/second-hand embarrassment.

Spoiler:

1-11

(I'm serious)

[furtiveglance]

I know I said I'd wait for the replacements but I lied. I lied out of solidarity with the mafia. Wholesome.

[furtiveglance]

@FG, Can you stop being so scary please and thank you. Also for the record I disagree with 442.

You keep saying this. In order to convince you that I am not a scary player, because I think you're town, I will now reveal my win/loss ratio so far on this site.

Don't look if you don't want to feel a sudden pang of empathy/pity/second-hand embarrassment.

Spoiler:

1-11

(I'm serious)

To be fair I think your scum play is scary. Genuinely hard to differentiate, I never evaluated your town play on a meta dive.
Take it as a compliment.

That said I'm fairly convinced you're town now, brother in arms, light against the dark etc etc, and you really have posted some insightful things.

Do you still agree with what you wrote here?:

Bellaphant

(formerly Bulbazoor (formerly Yericky(!)))

Voting: Bulba votes Esires (RVS, 39), Bella votes

Furtive

(Bad vote on

BBT

, not sussing Esires, 'busy work'(?), 337)

Reads: Bulba calls

Petapan

town

- 39, 103, 106, 124, Bella says

Petapan

null

- 241, Bulba calls

Furtive

scum

- 73, 85, 86, Bella agrees - 276, 322, 337, Bulba calls

BBT

scum

- 121, 147, Bella has

BBT

null

- 283, Bulba

does not townread

Meg - 194, Bellaphant agrees - 276, Bella calls BS200 and Fancy

town

- 241, Bella

does not scumread

Esires - 322 - but

would elim

Esires - 357.

Thoughts: There are 2 reasons that I suspect this slot. The first is that they heavily townread the Night 1 kill,

Petapan

. They weren't the only player to do so but did so quite effusively and also immediately (

Petapan

had only posted 4 times before 39). The second reason is that Bella's reads line up with Bulba's in the main. Not the

townreads

(townread, really - Bulba only gave

Petapan

town status), but the

scumreads

(or, more precisely, the preferred eliminations). Bulba never voted after RVS but threatened

BBT

with a vote in 173. On replacing in, Bella found the

BBT

wagon 'inorganic' yet was still 'fine with' the vote, citing the promise of 'a ton of info from the flip'. Bella also follows up Bulba's prolonged suspicion of

me

. Now with the privilege of knowing my own alignment, the question I have to ask myself is: Was I really so scummy that 2 different

town

players (sharing a slot) had me as a strong

scumread

? I think the answer is that it's definitely possible. I wasn't very active or engaged for a time, partly busy IRL. And the fact that several players are

scumreading

me

at present shows that I haven't played an objectively

towny

game. But the chances of Bella's reads matching Bulba's so closely is something I can't quite get over. What I'm considering is that these voting preferences are decided by the necessity of avoiding a partner rather than the earnest guess at a

mafia

.

Yes I do, and I noticed in Deputy Cultists (in which we were culty together) that Bella would often try to reconcile with a player scumreading them rather than cast stones in return. I don't want to punish players for being reasonable or co-operative, but the phrase 'scum range' does come to mind and my read there hasn't changed. If you're angling for me to vote with you, I'd like to see Bella's progression on Meg unfold first.

[furtiveglance]

Ngl this read seems like it's come out of nowhere and made of nothing. Paranoid me wonders if it's because the thread appetite for a furtive Elim went.

Also, to clarify, I didn't think the bbt flip would give us immediate info.

Which read?

[furtiveglance]

Pagetop vote

VOTE: Bellaphant

[furtiveglance]

Ngl this read seems like it's come out of nowhere and made of nothing. Paranoid me wonders if it's because the thread appetite for a furtive Elim went.

I take issue with this because of this:

Fancy pants - top town. Was town yesterday, one of the only two slots I was really happy with, even more town today. I really like their approach to furtive's big post - it could feel a bit chaotic (they defend it to me, they scrutinize it a bit, they defend it a bit, they think a bit, they assert their town on furtive), but it's really obvious where their head is at.

If you give someone top town status, how can you then accuse them of bad motives, citing 'paranoia'?

[furtiveglance]

That was before a case on me that was basically nothing. I don't mind being scum read by my town reads if I understand it - it happened in the game I linked rad to, but it came out of no where and is paper thin, so of course I'm going to react.

Ok, but how can you walk back such a strong TR in a short space of time? Town can be wrong you know.

[furtiveglance]

Because their read also happened out of nowhere? And because one of their main points, which seems to be 'bella didn't push a different wagon to bbt which is convenient for scum ' !which you also made but at least you were funny) hasn't been applied to rad.

Town can be wrong but I look for progression in my reads - I want to understand why something is happening. This push doesn't really feel much to do with anything that's actually happened/I've done, their read on bulba flipped massively and the only thing that seems to have changed overall is that you don't feel like a viable wagon but a few people are now Sus of meg.

You're suggesting Fancy/Meg?

Surely scum!Fancy doesn't need to cause a distraction, Rad kind of sussed Meg but then put them 3rd lowest in their list in 440. There are several options: side with Meg vs me, or just push BS200 with Rad.

[furtiveglance]

Town makes reads themselves and broadcasts said reads.

[furtiveglance]

Sorry for posting without acknowledging your question.

[furtiveglance]

Town makes reads themselves and broadcasts said reads.

How do they form those reads?

Oh wow you got me. NOT! Yeah partly asking questions if that's your style, but you don't need to. You can just read a post for alignment, or look at voting. That's not even my point. Your ratio of questioning to giving reads is lopsided.

[furtiveglance]

You are proposing that a player that knows everyone's alignment is more likely to ask questions of other players than one that knows nobody's alignment but their own.

Let that sink in for a moment

Yes. It's incredibly easy to do as mafia.

[furtiveglance]

Your argument assumes I'm scum then provides why that makes sense, rather than prove it doesn't make sense as town.

I saw about 5 or 6 posts in your ISO in which you stated opinions of other players (of around 70 posts at the time)

I have always associated being vocal with reads with town.

Conclusion: you sus

[furtiveglance]

Does anybody have a VC? Can I get a current VC?

I'm at the start of D2, and my main thought right now is "furtive, wtf?". Still feeling rad's play is outside his town range.

Corwinoid content

Current voting:
Bellaphant 2 (Fancypants, me)
Furtiveglance 1 (MegAzumarill)
Not voting: 4 (Bellaphant, BS200 (duh), Corwinoid, Rad)

Is 'wtf' good or bad?

[furtiveglance]

Does anybody have a VC? Can I get a current VC?

I'm at the start of D2, and my main thought right now is "furtive, wtf?". Still feeling rad's play is outside his town range.

What a weird thought. How is this game outside my town range? If anything, it's the furthest outside my scum range I've ever played. Like my scum game is absolutely fucked now after this game lol. I hate doing this much analysis as scum.

What? You literally did this in Newbie 2097. 1278 and 1279 in that game. viewtopic.php?t=89584&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[furtiveglance]

Does anybody have a VC? Can I get a current VC?

I'm at the start of D2, and my main thought right now is "furtive, wtf?". Still feeling rad's play is outside his town range.

What a weird thought. How is this game outside my town range? If anything, it's the furthest outside my scum range I've ever played. Like my scum game is absolutely fucked now after this game lol. I hate doing this much analysis as scum.

What? You literally did this in Newbie 2097. 1278 and 1279 in that game. viewtopic.php?t=89584&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Oh and that TL case lol, dude had like 14 posts or something? Yeah I didn't have to think too hard on that one. LHF.

Hem case was just my actual pregame thoughts. I honestly thought he was scum pocketing you before I replaced in.

You're ignoring my point, which is obviously that you can do 'analysis' as mafia too.

[furtiveglance]

Does anybody have a VC? Can I get a current VC?

I'm at the start of D2, and my main thought right now is "furtive, wtf?". Still feeling rad's play is outside his town range.

What a weird thought. How is this game outside my town range? If anything, it's the furthest outside my scum range I've ever played. Like my scum game is absolutely fucked now after this game lol. I hate doing this much analysis as scum.

What? You literally did this in Newbie 2097. 1278 and 1279 in that game. viewtopic.php?t=89584&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Oh and that TL case lol, dude had like 14 posts or something? Yeah I didn't have to think too hard on that one. LHF.

Hem case was just my actual pregame thoughts. I honestly thought he was scum pocketing you before I replaced in.

You're ignoring my point, which is obviously that you can do 'analysis' as mafia too.

I'm not ignoring your point. I'm not brain dead as scum, of course I can do analysis as scum. I certainly have never shown this level of analysis as scum though either and suggesting I have is just wrong. My scum game isn't built on analysis, it's built on being reasonable and agreeable. It's not out of the realm of possibilities that I'm scum this game but it would be incredibly far outside any range I've shown so far.

Anyway, disagree with me if you want, what do you think about corwin's suggestion that this game is outside my town range?

I don't understand the concept of 'outside town range', I've usually heard 'inside scum range'. And I'll wait for Corwin to explain his thought before passing judgement.

[furtiveglance]

Roden sus bad entrance
Corwinoid town good entrance

[furtiveglance]

Roden sus bad entrance
Corwinoid town good entrance

Can you explain?

Roden's reasoning for voting Corwin, it's just 'Esires slot feels like it should've had a lot more heat by now though.' For day 2 I feel like a vote should have more reasoning behind it. The implication is that the slot would have come under more heat by now if it was town. Which is dumb, the slot has come under heat, it just hasn't been eliminated yet. It's a really surface level thought.

Corwin coming in pushing Rad is more interesting because Rad is one of the more townread players in the game. And I think that mafia are less likely to say what Corwin has said than what Roden has said.

So basically, Roden pushing the easy push pretty half-heartedly and Corwin doing the opposite.

[furtiveglance]

unvote

I did make the case against Bella under the influence a bit, it doesn't mean it's wrong but I'm less confident rereading everything.

Tie your courage to the sticking place.

It might be that the best course of action is to just get rid of the esires slot which is kinda what I had planned for the most part. I really want to read FG as town, but I'm highly paranoid about the slot.

Noooo, trusssst in meeeee

I trust Rad the most and will probably just sheep them today when they come to a decision.

Duncan is a weak King.

Let me try to Lady Macbeth you a bit.

[furtiveglance]

unvote

I did make the case against Bella under the influence a bit, it doesn't mean it's wrong but I'm less confident rereading everything.

It might be that the best course of action is to just get rid of the esires slot which is kinda what I had planned for the most part. I really want to read FG as town, but I'm highly paranoid about the slot.

I trust Rad the most and will probably just sheep them today when they come to a decision.

Seriously though, this is very deflating indeed. When you were going after Bella was the only time I've really felt town has pushed scum this game. The first time I mean, about sussing the wagon but also suggesting bussing. Bella is the way to go. Unless people get back on me for some reason, town is going to sleepwalk into a Corwinoid elimination based on Esires' play. You can change this.

[furtiveglance]

Case me? Respond to my response to fancy's case? You sheeped him, you kinda need to back yourself up a bit.

Case me?

Spoiler:

1) Lack Of Drive

Town wants to win. Well, that's actually a dumb thing to say. Both teams want to win. The difference between how town wins and how mafia wins is this: town needs to vote out mafia. Mafia just needs to not get voted out. What I'm talking about is 'scumhunting' i.e. voting scumreads. When asked by petapan 'if the wagon is inorganic who are you pointing to as a culprit?', you named me, Juice and Meg in 276. You didn't vote any of us. Instead you gave your approval to BBT's elimination in 272, citing the promise of 'a ton of info'. It's been said before but you're basically saying 'if this is town vote these BBT voters". Idk what else 'info' could mean here. Day 2 comes around. Once Meg votes me you ask me some fairly loaded questions, and then vote me after I respond. After a readslist putting me bottom (443), you say you 'missed the stuff in the spoilers (444) (referring to 431 I believe) and take 15 minutes to read. You then unvote me (446), because you agreed with some of what I said. Then 456 places Meg as your 'most certain scum', but you don't vote Meg. I was voting Meg at the time, why not put your 'most certain scum' read under a bit of pressure? I would expect this from the average town player. The rest of your ISO is just loudly townreading Rad and reacting with 'paranoia' to Fancy (your top town) voting you.

2) Remember When You Started A Cult

I mentioned in 472 that I was seeing similarities between this game and Deputy Cultists from you. I know some people hate meta, and I did use to hate it a bit but I now want to use it to help me so it's fine. The way you try to talk Beat down in 477 (viewtopic.php?p=13421720#p13421720) after their 407 (viewtopic.php?p=13421146#p13421146) reminds me of the way you've handled me this game, namely post 446. So I think this may be your style as the susser faction.

Respond to my response to Fancy's case?

Spoiler:

This concerns this post, I'll use red:

Let's start with 4 and 5 - I don't know about rad but when I replaced in the elim felt inevitable. It even felt like bbt had given up fighting it .as I said to furtive, I don't think it was a good wagon at the time, but it was happening. I'd just replaced in, I wasn't going to spend a huge amount of effort that felt useless. Lazy? Yeah, maybe. Scummy? No

This seems somewhat contradictory to your previous assertion that you were happy with the elimination because we'd get info from it (272)

6 - I say town to mean everyone, this is a reach.

This I can understand, not a good point by Fancy.

Also, you and bbt just talked about furtive and esires and I didn't get it, of course in gonna ask furtive about it.

Why ask me? Ask Fancy, they brought it up. It looked like you wanted to position yourself as an attack dog for Fancy and (the late) BBT rather than take issue with the suggested pairing.

7 - this is the same point. Of course I'm gonna poke at everyone's reads.

Again, I have the same question. Poke at someone's reads by poking them, why did I get poked? I don't want to get poked, this isn't Facebook.

You sheeped him

Spoiler:

I'm going to invoke the ancient art of 'calling cap' on this one. I said you were in my sights in 312, then accused you of asking me a 'loaded question' in 323. Then I had you 2nd lowest in 431. Fancy voted you in 468, and I followed in 500. So yes I sheeped the VOTE, but not the read. Important distinction.

[furtiveglance]

Roden sus bad entrance
Corwinoid town good entrance

Can you explain?

Roden's reasoning for voting Corwin, it's just 'Esires slot feels like it should've had a lot more heat by now though.' For day 2 I feel like a vote should have more reasoning behind it. The implication is that the slot would have come under more heat by now if it was town. Which is dumb, the slot has come under heat, it just hasn't been eliminated yet. It's a really surface level thought.

Corwin coming in pushing Rad is more interesting because Rad is one of the more townread players in the game. And I think that mafia are less likely to say what Corwin has said than what Roden has said.

So basically, Roden pushing the easy push pretty half-heartedly and Corwin doing the opposite.

Furtive do you not see the problem with accusing me of having surface level thoughts here? I just replaced into the game at like 4 in the morning, read some ISOs, then put a vote down based on limited information and minimal context. What makes you think I should have anything more in depth than a surface level thought at that point?

If I'm pushing the easy push then where's the Corwin wagon? Bella seems like the far easier push for pretty obvious reasons; I'm seeing more heat there than on Corwin and it's disingenuous to try to claim otherwise.

Considering this isn't our first newbie game together where you immediately came out swinging and incorrectly pushed me, I just find it weird at this point that you're not recalibrating how you read me. Like what's jumping out at you as scum-indicative that you weren't wrong about before?

Don't move the goalposts. Pushing a player that I read as town likely to be miseliminated is a general scumtell.

[furtiveglance]

Roden sus bad entrance
Corwinoid town good entrance

Can you explain?

Roden's reasoning for voting Corwin, it's just 'Esires slot feels like it should've had a lot more heat by now though.' For day 2 I feel like a vote should have more reasoning behind it. The implication is that the slot would have come under more heat by now if it was town. Which is dumb, the slot has come under heat, it just hasn't been eliminated yet. It's a really surface level thought.

Almost exactly what I was thinking. That's a really odd place to jump in with "esires could have been elimed instead" when I don't recall this slot being pressured or close to elim anyway, and I don't understand the point of suggesting it was immediately a better play.

My takeaway from day 1 was that it was just awful. I have a hard time differentiating most of the players in my head still and it was too quick--I don't even know who I would have wanted to elim day 1 instead of BBT (but BBT was bad, and the timing was bad).

Furtive, you see the dissonance here, right? Corwin claims he was thinking almost the exact same way as you...only to immediately contradict your claim that Esires had come under heat. Corwin doesn't believe that slot was really even pressured.

Also...I never claimed Esires could've or should've died, or that elimming the slot would've been a better play. Corwin, where did I say that?

Yes I caught this, it looked like Corwin misunderstood what I said.

[furtiveglance]

Calling cap = saying someone is lying

[furtiveglance]

1) my reads aren't great right now, I want a bunch more content from the replacements. I'm never as throwy with my votes as some people.
1a) linked to this, im bored of talking about what I said about bbts wagon.

2) that's just me. I've already said to rad about my tone and interactions being hard to read sometimes. Is there anything specific from that game else?

Red stuff - both of these things can be true, it's not a contradiction. See 1a
Good point @ fancy, talk more about the hero solve?
But I did want info from you


I don't know what calling cap means, but ok. I am uninspired by your read.

I was expecting a bit more than "bored of talking about what I said". Not a satisfying response

[furtiveglance]

Yeah I was on the wagon, but I was happy with it, I didn't try to have it both ways. And I'm not really townreading Rad either, they seem obsessed with their own meta and going "scum!Rad this, scum!Rad that". Just talk more about others broooooooo. And both of yall should vote someone

[furtiveglance]

Quick announcement that if people would prefer Meg to Bella I'm more than happy to vote there. All they're doing is aligning themself against me today, pretty determinedly. It looks like a strategic decision rather than the conclusion of actual town thoughts.

[furtiveglance]

Because you never look bad when it flips because it never does, and people respect you for pushing a difficult push. So it's a way of doing nothing and hiding in plain sight. It's worth noting that your reads apart from me are nearly completely unexplained and consensus.

[furtiveglance]

Roden sus bad entrance
Corwinoid town good entrance

Can you explain?

Roden's reasoning for voting Corwin, it's just 'Esires slot feels like it should've had a lot more heat by now though.' For day 2 I feel like a vote should have more reasoning behind it. The implication is that the slot would have come under more heat by now if it was town. Which is dumb, the slot has come under heat, it just hasn't been eliminated yet. It's a really surface level thought.

Corwin coming in pushing Rad is more interesting because Rad is one of the more townread players in the game. And I think that mafia are less likely to say what Corwin has said than what Roden has said.

So basically, Roden pushing the easy push pretty half-heartedly and Corwin doing the opposite.

Furtive do you not see the problem with accusing me of having surface level thoughts here? I just replaced into the game at like 4 in the morning, read some ISOs, then put a vote down based on limited information and minimal context. What makes you think I should have anything more in depth than a surface level thought at that point?

If I'm pushing the easy push then where's the Corwin wagon? Bella seems like the far easier push for pretty obvious reasons; I'm seeing more heat there than on Corwin and it's disingenuous to try to claim otherwise.

Considering this isn't our first newbie game together where you immediately came out swinging and incorrectly pushed me, I just find it weird at this point that you're not recalibrating how you read me. Like what's jumping out at you as scum-indicative that you weren't wrong about before?

Don't move the goalposts. Pushing a player that I read as town likely to be miseliminated is a general scumtell.

Instead of complaining about goal posts, maybe you could just respond to what I said?

No, my point about goal posts is relevant because you're arguing that your meta absolves you of guilt for doing a generally scummy thing. You've entered this game scumreading me and my townreads, so I feel like you're aligning yourself against me. Does that make sense?

[furtiveglance]

Because you never look bad when it flips because it never does, and people respect you for pushing a difficult push. So it's a way of doing nothing and hiding in plain sight. It's worth noting that your reads apart from me are nearly completely unexplained and consensus.

You're literally the only one who's claiming to town read people who push against the grain. You were even questioned about this thought process because someone else disagreed with you.

Roden sus bad entrance
Corwinoid town good entrance

Can you explain?

Roden's reasoning for voting Corwin, it's just 'Esires slot feels like it should've had a lot more heat by now though.' For day 2 I feel like a vote should have more reasoning behind it. The implication is that the slot would have come under more heat by now if it was town. Which is dumb, the slot has come under heat, it just hasn't been eliminated yet. It's a really surface level thought.

Corwin coming in pushing Rad is more interesting because Rad is one of the more townread players in the game. And I think that mafia are less likely to say what Corwin has said than what Roden has said.

So basically, Roden pushing the easy push pretty half-heartedly and Corwin doing the opposite.

Here you use the same reasoning for scum reading Meg to town read Corwin.

This is broadly true. I'd argue I'm less townread than Rad but yes I did do what you said. I suppose since Meg has been here longer, the scumread on me feels more stagnant. And I know I'm town whereas Corwin could be right on Rad so there's that.

[furtiveglance]

I'm feeling really conflicted.

[furtiveglance]

Interesting Furtive has not joined the wagon after I took him up on his offer, one that could quickly become 3 people if he joined and Fancy sheeped me.

I'm not liking Rad's recent posting, and this is really giving me a headache. It's like he's setting me up in some way....I don't know if it means Rad/Meg pair exactly. That doesn't seem right somehow. But I haven't really been on that much since he voted Meg, it seems unreasonable to expect me to follow immediately.

I know people will be wondering when Rad got so low on my list, whereas I've had Bella and Meg as scumreads for a while. It's partly Rad's obsession with his own meta - 'if I was mafia I'd be playing better than ever haha' etc (e.g. 533), and the way he's taking up positions with reads (555 for example). Just have a bad feeling.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Corwin/Fancy/Roden are all town. I have Bella/Meg/Rad swirling around in my head, their avatars taunting me. Confusing associatives: Meg casually towning Bella with 'Bulba can be town' (108), Rad voting Meg (596), and Bella's progression on Meg ('most certain scum' in 465 but never voting Meg, with 'I'm never throwy with votes - 587 - as the only explanation). I feel like both scum are here, and I'd love to just jettison all 3 of them in a row, but I know I don't have the support to do that, and if I push a town wagon today I'll probably be the scapegoat tomorrow and set up a scum win. So yeah, I feel that there's a lot riding on where my vote goes.

[furtiveglance]

unvote

I did make the case against Bella under the influence a bit, it doesn't mean it's wrong but I'm less confident rereading everything.

It might be that the best course of action is to just get rid of the esires slot which is kinda what I had planned for the most part. I really want to read FG as town, but I'm highly paranoid about the slot.

I trust Rad the most and will probably just sheep them today when they come to a decision.

I want Fancy to come back and explain that

this

post was actually made under the influence (even more than the previous one) and come and set the record straight.

[furtiveglance]

Another point I have against Meg is that by just having the one scumread (me), they keep every other player onside. It's a strategically good decision. I'll also blow my own trumpet here by saying that scumreading 3 players pretty loudly is not the best decision strategically if my goal was just to survive. I am genuinely trying to get this right.

[furtiveglance]

I still want to flip Bella, I believe in that vote. I'll give it more time to see if others do also. If not, I will vote Meg.

[furtiveglance]

Curse my tired mind for messing up the rickroll link

VOTE:

Is this a joke or real?

[furtiveglance]

Ahaha, feeling conflicted is about where I am. I really want more from fancy - his case was almost laughably bad and I can't help thinking it was pulled out of nothing and then he's kinda been absent, but then the question is 'why'. Interesting that rad read the slot as null day one, I had then as my strongest town. I also think it's weird that they totally abandoned their 'hero solve'.

I'm starting to worry that my scum read of meg is stylistic.

I'm back to being confused by furtive. Their start of day was bizzare, but then through convo I felt they were responding to me like they were solving, but their scum read of me again feels strange and like they are painting my actions in a perceived worst light, which was very similar to my issue with their big analysis post. So does the push on rad .

The replacements both game in a little shaky, did think Roden was townier than corwin, but the content has dropped off from both.

@furtive, why are you tr-ing corwin?
@rad, talk to me more about fancy's dya one.

I probably have Esires higher than Corwin if that makes sense. Most of what Corwin has said is pretty easy to say as mafia, but I still think the slot is town.

[furtiveglance]

Yeah 3 days left, come back people!

[furtiveglance]

What happened between this:

@ fancy, I have meg as my most certain scum

and this:

Ok, I don't wanna vote meg today.

?

[furtiveglance]

@furtive, really?? Nearly 200 posts and a re-read of day one. You aren't engaging with me in good faith at all.

On the contrary, I want to know why.

[furtiveglance]

@furtive, really?? Nearly 200 posts and a re-read of day one. You aren't engaging with me in good faith at all.

On the contrary, I want to know why.

Don't be fooled by my vote, I'm not locked in to anything.

[furtiveglance]

I'n here.

I've been thinking over the game state and I'm at a point where I think scum are just playing well. Like yeah I guess that's obvious, but what I mean is that I don't think any elim is a home run at this point and that none of the people who are getting scum read makes sense as a pair. I feel like there are too many town reads across the board, not in the "it's scummy that you have too town reads" way but in a "scum must be in a good position" way.

Too many town reads + multiple comments about how scattered the votes have been + more comments about how no one really stood out D1 or made hard pushes...I feel like that all points to a very comfortable game state for scum who feel good about their day play and only need to worry about town PRs. I do get the hesitance to scrutinize town read players though, since it's a shitty feeling to attack a super townie player out of paranoia only to then find out they really were just town. But I just don't think the most scum read players (Meg/Corwin/Furtive) contains both of the scum, in fact there's a decent chance none of the scum are there.

Am I on to something here or is this game more clear cut than I'm giving it credit for?

Is this game confusing and difficult? Yes. Does that mean you're 'onto something'? Not really, pretty obvious to everyone playing. If you're using this to say that there's scum in Bella/Fancy/Rad, I mean yeah I already think that. See my 331 for more thoughts on associatives (based on early game interactions).

[furtiveglance]

Objection. Mr. Pants (my client) isn't here to defend himself.

[furtiveglance]

Voting off an AFK is insanely dumb because they have no opportunity to claim - this man could be PR.

[furtiveglance]

I'll claim intent to hammer but it's not looking like he's going to show up to PR claim or defend himself. Almost 3 days away from the game.

This was a really easy game for Fancy to not get flipped in regardless of alignment. With 2 people hard reading him as town all he had to do was keep up minimal activity. He claimed in 2099 to have never been flipped as town before. I guess signs are pointing to scum here and my meta read was off. Tbh I was a little excited to maybe have town!Fancy in this game with me cause he was so scary in 2099 and that was going to be fun, so maybe I forced that read to happen.

Any thoughts from Meg or Furtive on this wagon before we end it?

pedit - hey furtive... ok but what are you suggesting we do instead? We're running out of time today. I doubt we can get a fancy replacement in time to help with the slot read. You're not getting your Bella or Meg wagons here. Got an alternative you wanna push?

You know what I'm suggesting. You're saying I'm 'not getting my wagons' - that's down to other people. Why is it my responsibility to vote out a townlean instead of a stronger townread? No, I'm going to keep pushing and voting my actual scumreads.

[furtiveglance]

That's cool furtive. I'd hate it anyway if we collaborated and compromised on a different wagon than your Bella tunnel wagon. You do you. How very towny of you to "keep pushing and voting my actual scumreads" that haven't changed in a week. Remember it has to be Rad Meg Bella cause that sick pairing case you made was air tight.

There are 6 other players. I'd prefer that we eliminated 2 of those 6. That's not really being especially picky. How does my reads not changing in a week mean anything? The game is exceptionally stale, as everyone keeps pointing out. So what new content would I read into? There's no need to be so pointed and sarcastic. I've made my positions clear and I'm being pretty reasonable.

[furtiveglance]

*sigh* I'm so bloody confused right now. I thought furtive TMI'd earlier in the game which was what my "revisit it" comment was about, but I put it aside, until the fancy-defense of "he's not here guys" smacked of partnering. But now I can't find the post that triggered the initial TMI thought, so maybe it was all in my head.

But furtive, why would you want to keep the slot that's inactive / replacing just before deadline vs. one of the *currently* active players we have more info about going into D3? I hate pushing on an inactive/LA role in newbie games, but it's basically extending the current gamestate into the next day instead of having to potentially sus out entirely new player in that slot. I have more info about the players in the game right now than I do about a mystery player jumping into a claim right before the day ends, and then having to fire-wagon someone else.

I feel like I have more info about this Fancy slot than every other slot in the game, it's the one I have the strongest read on (townread). So I don't want it gone.

I shouldn't be awake right now but meh.

[furtiveglance]

Nero, vote Bella or Meg, I will join.

[furtiveglance]

Can we take Nero off E-1? Mafia could hammer...

[furtiveglance]

Pagetop question: Nero were you reading the game before you replaced in?

[furtiveglance]

And how much have you read so far?

[furtiveglance]

Read some new pages.

1) Yelling about claiming is just pointless, if you're about to hammer ask for a claim. Otherwise they don't have to.

2) Roden has never explained his scumread on me, and now seems
borderline obsessed.

3) Meg's posting has never got off the ground this game, very mild. Post about casually 'swinging by' to hammer another wagon at EOD was pretty sus, just like their whole game. Once again, any Meg voters get a free sheep from me.

Still feel Bella and Meg makes the most sense.

[furtiveglance]

My posts early on go over what I disagree with you on and what I find suspicious. I don't think I ever reconciled those thoughts.

Also weird take to say I'm "borderline obssessed" when just a couple days ago people were begging for me to post more. Like I don't think I'm spamming the game or anything remotely close to that, nor am I hyper focused on any particular player.

612 is your only explanation so far - 'I don't like the arguments they've made though, and to me it looks like they're justifying their Meg scum read with a circular logic narrative.'

734 and 847 imply that you're scumreading me strongly, but 612 is just criticising my push on Meg, I don't see how the two add up.

[furtiveglance]

We have 17 hours and I'm down to not wanting to vote meg, rad and Roden mostly because they are the people who are making the most sense.

I sincerely believe this is not how town thinks. 'Making sense' is not inherently town, that's surely the first fallacy they teach in mafia class.

[furtiveglance]

Since Fancy left my interest in this game has waned, I'm not changing my mind today and I'm falling on deaf ears, it's frustrating. I feel like scum are gearing up to push me tomorrow which will probably be ELO. I'm reading the latest content but it's not interesting me that much, just being honest. Scum will probably win by virtue of being inoffensive this game, I'm talking about my stagnant scumreads in Bella and Meg of course.

[furtiveglance]

I think you are wrong on Meg and its one of Cor/Roden

Town Meg would have more reads on players other than me, they basically lumped everyone in town or null. Just read 'Mewbie' 2092.

[furtiveglance]

Nero, you are formally invited to E-1.

[furtiveglance]

I call intent to invoke my real doublevoting powers.

[furtiveglance]

I'll go in depth a little later, but the order is generally

Bs (Roden)/ Fancy
Corwin/Rad/Bella
Furtive

This is literally appeasing every other player.

608 is the follow up, the only outspoken read is town on Roden, Fancy was already a UTR. Every other read you leave some room for doubt:

I a little bit of explanation I promised earlier,

Bs200/Roden- I think this slot is town. A lot of Bs2000's play on day 1 felt completely incoherent in the lens of them being scum, particularly early on with me. Later in the day, I felt their reads and how they presented their thoughts seemed natural and not pushing an agenda. Nothing Roden has done today has made me thhink otherwise of the slot, so I feel safe assuming this is town.

Fancy- their catchup line of thinking feels natural today and all in all they are a consensus town read for a reason. I don't think there's a lot to say here other than their cathup and subsequent play was really good, while their early play was OK.

Bellaphant/Bulba -

This slot I'm torn on

since this feels like the fencesitty Bella that was in deputy cultists, but both here and their she claims it's her natural playstyle. I wouldn't be one to judge for the fencesitting but it's too offputting to keep her in townreads. I say keep because I was a fan of bulba's posting early on which felt proactive and solvey. Scumlean in total.

Rad/Juice- Juice was a bit of a nothing burger, and quickly subbed into Rad. Rad has had a fair bit of good content here and a fair bit of content I disliked. I feel there's could be clear scum motivations for these actions but my gut says it's not the case and this is just townie dissonance. A lot stick out to me on this though,

so I can't reasonably proclaim town here with confidence

.


Corwinold/Esires - This slot is probably >rand town from day 1 from circumstance. Due to the way day 1 unfolded I feel like there wasn't any deliberate motion away from esires when they were being seriously considered for the chopping block, or when at E-1. It feels like they were either hard abandoned by their partner day 1, which feels unlikely, or they are town. Additionally, their reads felt more grounded on reread. That said, what the slot has done could be scum playing cool but it just doesn't feel as likely. The replacement hasn't changed my thoughts over this slot much.

This and Rad end up about null.

Furtive- Previously stated scumcase still holds true. Their play has been increasingly bizarre here which honestly could spell a misguided town, but I don't really see anyone else as better suited. Their day 1 play lines up nearly perfectly with scum in how scum should best act in that kind of situation. Reminds me of how my read formed on Bella in Deputy Cultists. That read was correct. As for people's townreads on this slot, they seem either abstract or I just don't agree that that particular thing is town indicative.

It looks like you're keeping your options open in a major way.

[furtiveglance]

True mafia is a game where a lot of things are in doubt
Good observation

Yes, but to talk for so long and to end at 'meh' is unexpected. And secondly, you've shown no doubt on me, or even supported any other votes.

[furtiveglance]

Read some new pages.

1) Yelling about claiming is just pointless, if you're about to hammer ask for a claim. Otherwise they don't have to.

2) Roden has never explained his scumread on me, and now seems
borderline obsessed.

3) Meg's posting has never got off the ground this game, very mild. Post about casually 'swinging by' to hammer another wagon at EOD was pretty sus, just like their whole game. Once again, any Meg voters get a free sheep from me.

Still feel Bella and Meg makes the most sense.

Why do you find being mild as suspicious?
What do you think Town!Meg acts like here that I'm not? This feels like pointless bickering.

Also Roden has said like, 1 thing mildly against you and has said he likes the bella slot more than you. That's nowhere near any level of obsessed.

Yeah this was some content I didn't feel like answering/talking about. If you're town I look like a bad player for this but I think you can guess/already know the answers I'm going to give, so I don't really know why you're asking.

1) Mild is suspicious because scum want to fit in. This is generally accepted, it's known as blending. Surely you knew this is what I was on about.

2) More reads, like I said just now. That is - more posts which state opinion about the alignment of another player.

[furtiveglance]

Meg if furtive is scum, I can see why you'd consider me a possible pairing. Is that your main issue with me right now or do you have a scum read on me outside that?

I don't think furtive/Nero is likely here. Furtive fancy interactions are so on the nose if scum pair, just doesn't feel likely.

Would you consider a corwin vote here? I don't think a furtive wagon would happen here and we need to consolidate soon.

You know we don't all need to agree, we just need 4 to agree.....you voted Bella, who cares what Meg thinks? Bizarre post from Rad here.

[furtiveglance]

No condemning is worse than voting off a VT for me, I'd rather have 5 than 6.

[furtiveglance]

What if there are e.g. 3 on Bella and 2 on Corwin?

[furtiveglance]

Read some new pages.

1) Yelling about claiming is just pointless, if you're about to hammer ask for a claim. Otherwise they don't have to.

2) Roden has never explained his scumread on me, and now seems
borderline obsessed.

3) Meg's posting has never got off the ground this game, very mild. Post about casually 'swinging by' to hammer another wagon at EOD was pretty sus, just like their whole game. Once again, any Meg voters get a free sheep from me.

Still feel Bella and Meg makes the most sense.

Why do you find being mild as suspicious?
What do you think Town!Meg acts like here that I'm not? This feels like pointless bickering.

Also Roden has said like, 1 thing mildly against you and has said he likes the bella slot more than you. That's nowhere near any level of obsessed.

Yeah this was some content I didn't feel like answering/talking about. If you're town I look like a bad player for this but I think you can guess/already know the answers I'm going to give, so I don't really know why you're asking.

1) Mild is suspicious because scum want to fit in. This is generally accepted, it's known as blending. Surely you knew this is what I was on about.

2) More reads, like I said just now. That is - more posts which state opinion about the alignment of another player.

Considering the situation I feel like I stick out more being "mild" here than not? Wouldn't you agree, you have called it out as particularly out of place compared to the rest of the game which does sort of defeat your point here.
So you expect me to magically know more with less information? I don't think your schema here for how alignments play works. Like what is my end goal here if I'm scum? Do things that are attracting more attention to myself for what? In an attempt to fit in even though that's blatantly not how this is playing out? I really don't see what motive you think I'm playing to.

??? I'm the only one calling you out on it, don't you get that I'm especially insightful in my own mind? But seriously. As well as not sticking out (in a way that other people care about), you're keeping other players onside by not scumreading them. It's like you're managing the playerlist. That was my other point about having only 1 scumread.

You don't have to respond to this, I get that we're not communicating in the most helpful way right now.

[furtiveglance]

What if there are e.g. 3 on Bella and 2 on Corwin?

I will hammer either. Problem here is we're very low on time and heading into most people's sleep time. I won't be awake when day ends. Need to figure out which wagon to sit on by tonight 2am my time which is in 6.5 hours or come to a consensus before that where 4 of us agree.

Mechanically what happens, is it no one dies or Bella?

[furtiveglance]

Well done guys, I was wrong there! Who were the PRs?

[furtiveglance]

How was I crumbing? Not something I meant to do.

[furtiveglance]

the only reason that I wasn't mled was b/c rad/frut and Meg showed considerable restraint. So good job on that. The smaller the games are the more pro-town they are.

frut

[furtiveglance]

I mean I don't think I made an effort to hide the masonry. I've had Roden as town throughout.

That's what BS2000's weird reversal was, him arbitrarily scumreading me to hide the masonry and I was basically like, no stop that.

Mason buddy tries to bus you LOL

[furtiveglance]

Thoughts: kind of a replacement hell game, can't be helped. The BBT vote was bad, I was lazy and checked out on D1. I obviously became tunnelled with stale reads on D2, I knew it at the time but naturally felt I was right. I need to revisit the Esires townread, BBT and Fancy saw something I didn't.

[furtiveglance]

A lot of the time mafia's success just depends on hitting PRs early in NewD3.

[furtiveglance]

Read the Mason PT. Meg you were VT in Mewbie 2092. I like all the distancing stuff, I had no clue where the PRs were this game, I would have guessed Nero and Roden probably, with Nero is FN and Roden Doc. Idk if that even works but yeah good hiding.

[furtiveglance]

This game was interesting as I was pretty sure this was the scum slot when replacing in, and then was really unsure of who my partner would be! Town really stepped it up day two.

What's weird is how scummy people found my bbt wagon position, which I would've had as town!

Really well done to Nero, coming in and calling the team, corwin said in the PT we'd lost about half an hour after you repped in

Yeah you definitely gave me some doubt, I was sort of 50/50 between you and Mason Meg D2. It was partly that only Rad really showed appetite for your vote after Fancy dipped, and then Fancy/Nero got ran up to E-1 in a way I found really sus. So I thought the lack of interest indicated you might be mafia, and when the gamestate isn't going my way I tend to tunnel.

[furtiveglance]

I think this queue is officially dead. Changes should come soon or this site will follow.

yeah they need to just combine it with central park and mayfair club and only run newbie level games when there are actual newbies that join and need/want a low impact game to learn.

The road to central park and the Mayfair Club

I probably won't play a Newbie game soon. It's partly the NewD3 setup I'm getting a bit tired of. Seems that PR actions/claiming/getting smoked N1 are almost more important than people's reads and what the game should actually be about. Thanks for carrying the modding HEM.

[furtiveglance]

I think about the activity thing that 13 players is generally the right place to go for consistant activity, but I with the newbie queue as it is I don't think it would be wise to change up the setup that way. I suppose I can just suggest looking into other queues if you don't like how the pacing is for micros

If other people also like 13 player games, I have one in the Open Queue haha.

[furtiveglance]

One thing I noticed is that Esires called Meg a PR read early on, but mafia still went for Petapan despite a VT read there. I often find early PR reads are correct, and I still regret not smoking Asphodelus in 2093.