Newbie 2108 - Postgame

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hey everyone!

Just a quick post to say I'm here and will read up after work today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, 10 pages down. Here's some stuff;

What does WIM stand for?

WIM = Want It More

I'm not loving the cactus's entrance

In fact I find it downright prickly

...I'll see myself out, but not before I UNVOTE: Muse, I don't want an e-2 yet

I know this is said in a jokey tone but if it's serious, I like it. I'm not a fan of Cactus' entrance either, way too aggressive and towards exactly the type of player who you would expect scum to push as well.

Charles, you've been around since day start have contributed nothing
You're intentionally lurking
VOTE: Charles510

Stuff like this, it's so OTT. I'm not even sure Charles is the only slot that this could be leveled at, so why does he stand out so much to Cactus?

I don't think there was anything wrong with putting me at e-2, if there was a quickhammer then it'd be rosy for us, at least one scum would basically have outed themselves. E-2 is not the same as a a hammer, esp. D1.

My reads right now:
Cactus and Aureal town
Elements scum, aggressive early play to build a leader position, esp. with focus on throwaway talk of sheeping which is obvs much more desirable for scum than town.
Everyone else neutral

VOTE: Elements

Not a huge fan of these reads but reads town for going against thread consensus with both the Cactus read and the Elements read, specifically the latter.

And what makes my aggression scummy, but Cactus' town?

Yep, good posting.

On the basis that if you ARE town, the scum are sitting back and rubbing their hands, I'm interested if other people could weigh in.

This post comes out of nowhere and I really don't like it. Someone said it was blown out of proportion and that's exactly what it felt like, such a weird thing to say. Implying early that it's TvT to gain town reads?

I feel like cactuses aggression sorts him early into town, and if this is incorrect should be obvious by day 2/3

Pav feels genuine here

Aureal I'm mixed on but feels more green than red

Elements is funny but they haven't convinced me they aren't evil yet

I'm not sure if you addressed this, but even if you did, I'd like to speak to you directly. What makes Cactus' aggression town? Not sure I like the Elements read either.

Your response be being scumread is scummy. Your aggressive play is NAI.

In what way is Elements response to being scum read scummy?

What do you think about post #19? I liked it until Elements started fishing for towncred in posts #36 and 39
The frustration in post #161 of getting scumread isn't how town would respond. It feels like Elements voted Idle because OMGUS. He's also constantly comparing himself to other players

I think you and Elements have polar opposite playstyles. Elements is very silly and you're very serious. I don't see any of that in those Elements posts, I see light-heartedness in the initial ones and I totally agree with 161.

Also, it makes it harder to follow what you're talking about and confuses things when you use the wrong pronouns for people. Elements is not a he, but seems to be who you're referring to in that last sentence there.

Oops. Yes, Elements is who I'm referring to.
I can see how #36 was made jokingly. However, 39 indicates that she's serious about wanting to look towny
What do you think about Idle's response in post #164? Their questioning seems to be a genuine attempt at trying to understand Elements' perspective, whereas Elements is eager to vote Idle before they have the chance to respond (#151 and #[url=hhttps://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13594030#p13594030]162[/url])

VOTE: Elements

I do like this though, for same reasons as Idle earlier. Very much against thread flow and pretty bold if scum.

Cactus, I would love you to expand on why Elements is actually scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's looking like Meg or Brick are the most likely flips today, so indecisive people, please stop being indecisive so we can do this properly. There's under 2 days left.

Not fully caught up yet, but, huh?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's not that you asked for other people's opinions on it that it caught my eye.

It was the fact that you implied it was TvT so early on.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

From Brick's entry into the game, I don't think they're scum so we probably shouldn't vote there.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm asking what makes you think it's between Meg and Brick because FMPOV that doesn't seem to be the case?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's LAMIST, I don't think I am explaining myself very well for what it's worth.

You and Elements had barely been exchanging, it wasn't like you had been going back and forth for 10 pages or whatever, it was a discussion that was in it's infancy. However, you felt the need to suggest that if Elements is town then scum would be rubbing their hands with glee and these two townies going at each other.

It felt premature and looked like you wanted to plant the seed of how town you are and how happy scum would be so people should look elsewhere.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Their posting in general. I've only properly read until around the end of page 12 though and I just started glazing so took a break for a bit.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, I'm here again and continuing!

Cactus: Initially I got some light town vibes. Now I don't really get any vibes. Seems to have an air of neutrality around themselves, although recently they've started zeroing in on Elements.
Brickwall: Not much to say. Looking forward to them elaborating on their reads.
Idle: Slight scumread. Didn't like their initial exchange with Elements, and their recent posts haven't changed my reads.
Aureal: I like how she is more aggressive in her newer posts, although the reasoning seems far-fetched. Leaning town.
Pavowski: Hard to say, not really getting any vibes at all.
Elements: In the beginning of the game, I got light scum vibes here. Newer posts are a bit meh.
Charles: Hasn't really said anything at all. I'm really hoping for something good from them today.
Meg: Very slight townlean, but I don't have a good read at all here.

Weuler is someone that has pretty much gone under my radar so far until this post. The fact that they have gone under the radar for so long is already a red flag though.

This reads-list is pretty horrific and I don't think I saw a single person comment on it. What is that read on Cactus? Light town vibes > no vibes > air of neutrality > zeroing in on Elements. Like, what does this even mean? Is the zeroing in on Elements AI? If so, how?

No read on Brickwall. Pav. Charles (understandable). Meg. This reads-list is filled with no reads.

Even the reads he does state are weak - slight scum read on Idle, doesn't explain why. Light scum vibes from Elements early in the game, no specifics. New posts are meh, another nothing statement.

How did nobody pick this up? The fact Aureal unvoted him after this post absolutely blew my mind.

This I actually find pretty believable (and distressing), because I just did the same thing up above after I asked about Idle's unvotes. Looked at the vote count after posting and read it backwards like the vote on Idle by Elements was Idle voting Elements still and got myself confused for a couple minutes trying to figure out if the vote count was correct. At least I wasn't voting in my confusion, though.

UNVOTE: Weuler VOTE: IdleMuse

I'm ready to start pushing this wagon finally!

Where did this vote come from Aureal? I couldn't find a whole lot (anything?!) in your ISO that suggested you were waiting to push this wagon or even had a scum read on Idle at all.

VOTE: Aureal
Fairly enjoying Brick so far.

I like the fact Meg voted you shortly after this but I have no idea what the reasoning behind it was.

I didn't agree with Idle's initial reasoning for calling Elements scum. However, his perspective on fear of leadership definitely comes from town.

Talk more about how the fear of leadership

definitely

coming from town?

I appreciate the effort which has gone into post 294 but unfortunately i'm not a fan of post 294 (always wanted to know how to use the brackets so thank you Element. Giving it a try).

Hear me out, I think the time and effort gone into making this post gives me town vibes for Element. I think it is a lot of work and effort for scum to go to. Don't get me wrong, nothing conclusive about this read but merely it is sending good signs.

I, however, think the logic is massively flawed and thus on that basis it is nothing more than a conversation starter. The insights in the spoilers is where I think the true value of this post is. The numbers in the graph are of little value, imho.

I only say that because I am in scum team 11, one of the three front runners. I know I am not scum so I know the logic is flawed. Thus, how can I then trust read 25 and 22, if I know read 11 is wrong. Simply doesn't make sense.

My other remark would be why the need to hunt scum in pairs. I know it is a team game but each team dynamic will be different, and thus looking for a unique team pairing is super unrealistic. The game is hard enough looking for individual scum, why are we complicating it by hunting for pairs. I think focusing in on individual posts and nuances to find one scum. Once we have located the first, we can analysis the link between that slot and the remaining players. This is a more sensible, methodical can logical approach to hunting scum pairs.

Good posting. NAI, but good posting. Probably a discussion for post-game.

VOTE: Brickwalllll

Happy to vote Charles too if they don't post anything contentful today (a Sunday).

This is not a good vote. Ill timed and feels opportunistic.

So 294 motivates me+Meg as a team because we both voted each other on RVS, the fact that I have an inaccurate slight townlean on Meg, and that Meg spent posts 261 and 263 defending me. Looking back at 261 and 263, they don't really make sense unless both Meg and I are scum, or Meg is town. This actually solidifies my townread on Meg, which in turn I suppose strengthens Element's Weuler-Meg pairing.

I don't know what it is, but this post makes me itchy. Particularly "the fact that I have an inaccurate slight townlean on Meg". Inaccurate based on what? Furthermore "don't really make sense unless both Meg and I are scum, or Meg is town" is likewise a poor assumption. Scum can and do bus their teammates, defend innocent townies, and everything in between. Townbinning somebody because they defended you is daaaaaangerous. I don't like it. Although you seem to recognize that this would give credence to a you-Meg team, which blunts me just straight-out scumreading you for this.

(lol blunts)

Pav's response to this post is golden. Except for the last bit, that ruined it. That post earns a scum read 100% of the time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Catching up is boring, does anyone wanna talk?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ah, I hate reading recent posts then going back to reread.

Can you give me the run down of what's happened?

Can both of you respond to my post, too?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Welp.

How do you feel about limming Weuler?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Your posting must be real bad over these last 10 pages or so if you were wagoned.

I really need to catch up fully.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Weuler

What a well timed VC that is.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Weuler wagon looks CLEAN

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree that your posting around that subject was fair and was actually grounded in sound theory.

As I said though, probably a discussion for post game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I read 15 pages.

And now I've voted. Would you care to respond to my catch up post?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You town read Weuler, Aureal?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, could you respond to my post please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We're running low on time and I think you're a pretty good place to put my vote.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I read 15 pages.

And now I've voted. Would you care to respond to my catch up post?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Cactus

Let's do this, shall we?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bad push on Brick
Obsessed with my slot when it was an easy push
Says many things that don't make sense

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bad push on Brick
Obsessed with my slot when it was an easy push
Says many things that don't make sense

This is disappointing

You disagree?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My bad

I can tell you I'm town and then you believe me and then we elim scum and win the game?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

But now you're here! How many scum do you think were on the Weuler wagon?

0

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Idle/Cactus

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Town can push wagons quickly, too. Speed of wagon doesn't correlate to wagon composition IMO.

I also think people have a tendency to think scum MUST be on every elim that goes through and it's surprising how many times wagons are actually all town.

In saying that, scum usually avoid wagons to draw attention and I don't feel like Cactus is that type of scum player so maybe I'm wrong?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Idle/Cactus

Cactus?

Were you not saying who you thought was scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you talk to me about Cactus being town?

Also, disregard the last part of my previous post re Cactus. He wasn't actually around when that Weuler wagon formed and I think he would have had no problem joining if he had been online.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't town read Aureal, in fact if I'm wrong on either Cactus/Idle then Aureal would be next on my list.

Pav is town because he also didn't like Cactus' entrance and I think they may have been the only one who read it the same way as me? I also still like their posting around Wueler mid-way through D1

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I pretty much the same reasons you think Cactus is scum I think.
I like the aggression and energy in Cactus' entrance and think most post have been game advancing and trying to solve the game.

Hmm, OK. I realise this method is flawed before I say it but Cactus' scum play reminds me of my own. People usually default to town reading aggression but you have to look at whether the aggression is justified and I don't think it was.

Do you like his push on Brick?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I wouldn't say I like it. The interaction at the bottom of Cactus' iso reads very similarly to me at the one brick and I had about my pairs post.

What do you mean by the second part of this?

I know this convo wasn’t aimed at me but my 2c on the topic is I have put him down as noob town (I’m a noob so not meant with a negative connotation just to clarify).

@elements/BBT - A counter thought is do you think Idle using cactus as a front, and pushing her agenda through cactus’ case on me, speaks to him being a townie used as a pawn by scum Idle?

What makes you think he is noob town as opposed to noob scum?

Can you show any examples of Idle using Cactus as a front? Not sure I fully understand what you mean here.

My read was that meg and you were scum, and since it looked unlikely that there were enough people to eliminate you, I switched to meg. I was also hoping for more content from meg, rather than just sitting back and not doing much, and that post they made at that point was not the contentful examination of the current wagons and cases that I was hoping for. So I swapped my vote.

This was something that I questioned D1 as I was catching up; I can't remember if it was you that said it, but someone made out that D1 was a decision between Meg or Brick and no-one else was a consideration. Made me uneasy at the time and even more so in light of Meg's flip.

My read on Brick has changed in the cold light of D2. I don't agree that analysing the interactions between pairs is redundant, but, I also don't think, after reflection, that the cactus-brick or me-brick interactions came from a scum POV.

Who I do want to look at more is BBT. I'm gonna discount everything from the charles era, I don't think anything about troll-lurking is alignment-indicative one way or the other. But, since BBT arrived they jumped on the weuler wagon pretty quickly with little discourse (696, 701), now pushing cactus based on some equally non-informative judgement.

- 789 doesn't really sell me, if you think the push on brick was bad, explain it a little more, if you think there are things they said that don't make sense, quote them, 'obsessed with my slot' is hella exaggeration.
- 802 sure, sometimes wagons are all town, but I read Weuler as town and I felt it built and concluded pretty quickly? I think it's more likely _both_ scum were on it than none and 802 is intended to shift the dialogue away from that.
- 811 I mean you literally admit it's bad reasoning right there in the post. I do town-read cactus' aggression there because my thinking was mostly along the same lines re. brick at that point.

More damning to me is that I thought Weuler was a pretty easy newbie town-read, I don't easily buy that BBT didn't make that same connection, esp. being much more experienced (going by postcount at least).

Overall this isn't a strong scum read, but I'll put my vote down VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee because I don't have a stronger read right now.

Talk about your Brick read some more? You seem to have completely 180'd on it? What posts did you think came from a scum POV and now think otherwise?

Let's get to your read and vote on me.

I said more about Weuler than you're letting on, did you forget 689 existed? Like, I don't need to justify my vote on Weuler at all, but there is more than enough in my ISO to support a vote in a game that a) I replaced into and b) we were starting to run low on time in. In fact, had I not voted for Weuler, who do you think I had more reasoning to vote for?

How is my Cactus read not informed? Again, my ISO shows numerous posts regarding Cactus and my dislike of their play in this game. You're literally saying things that can be proven wrong just by ISO'ing me...

Find me a player that pushed Charles more than Cactus if you don't think he was tunneling my slot. I'll wait.

Regarding wagon speed, fast wagons happen when time is running low. Won't be the first time, won't be the last time, wagon speed does not correlate to wagon composition. It's simply comes down to whoever was online at the time. It's the reason that wagons/elims should happen much earlier so that a reasonable decision can be reached instead of doing it frantically. This is a discussion for post-game though.

Burden of proficiency is not a thing and never has been.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I just think it's unlikely it was both-off.

Why?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Both Idle and Pav have 180'd on Brick - talk about this please.

Aureal has been underwhelming so far, too.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Brick and Elements - I would like you to reconsider your Cactus town read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, does that conversation lend any weight to your Cactus town read because I don't see it?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Answered my next question before I even asked it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's looking like Meg or Brick are the most likely flips today, so indecisive people, please stop being indecisive so we can do this properly. There's under 2 days left.

Hmm, it was Aureal that said it.

I spotted another post in their ISO that I actually quite like though.

Elements and Brick, what's your most current read on Aureal? I'm struggling a bit with this one.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, it's silly.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Interesting phrase.

How was I 'stoking the fires'?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE: Brick

Did you miss this?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is there a different reason that you unvoted Pav?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Well, I like the sound of that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

His gameplay predominantly. The constant and almost abrupt direct questioning initially and the unwillingness to reconsider a position or look into any other player. It could be scum play but feel the abrasive nature of it could bring unwanted attention to the slot unnecessarily when you could stay under the radar instead.

Can you quote some examples of this for me?

What do you think about the vanity wagons at EoD?

What is the point of this question?

It was clear that BBT was implying that in previous games where he has played as scum, his play style is similar to that of cactus.

My man can read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I call it like I see it. BBT wasn't even just throwing another vote on to make sure it happened, he was saying things like "the Weuler wagon looks CLEAN" to make it seem more inevitable.

Umm, what? My comment about the Wueler wagon looking clean was implying that it was a town-driven wagon and was unlikely to contain any scum on it. Are you trying to say that I was pushing through a wagon on someone I wanted elimmed? I'm guilty as charged!

Soooo, you think scum is going to abandon what could likely be a promising wagon on Idle for this? The BBT/cactus thing totally goes against what I've been thinking so far so I'll be sad if it's true as that means I'm not doing to well at detecting scum, but you can't just see something like that and NOT point it out.

You're gonna need to clarify some reads for me.

Are you saying Idle is town now? Further, if you truly think I scum slipped, you can just help me elim Cactus and we go from there?

I have 180d on brick, indeed. I think 505 probably best represents my thoughts on Brick in the latter half of D2, nothing posted after that really changed that core opinion. But a reread over the nighttime and meg's flip (I was quite keen on the meg+brick pairing) made me realise that I was focussing too much on the stubbornness around pair hunting (example 547) and the almost-constant repetition of stuff like 'So how are you going to justify when I flip town?', "so when I do flip town, cactus is going to essentially be out of this game", "When I flip town, will my reads list be of more effect to you?" - they were constantly hammering that 'when i flip town' phrase. With the benefit of hindsight I just don't see a scum motivation for stuff like that., the stubborness isn't alignmnet-indicative, and while the constant 'when I flip town' feels LAMIST, there just so much of it, I think it's more indicative of town thinking-out-loud. 628 in particular I think is very town.

Hmm, OK. Cactus did something similar, did he not? You don't see the scum motivation for someone repeatedly saying they're town...like, really? Your flip on Brick makes very little sense to me but I don't know what it means.

689 just shows that your read on Weuler was wrong. Being wrong doesn't mean you're scum, but it doesn't exonerate you either. I'm not asking you to justify your vote at all, I'm asking everyone else to consider that that may have been an opportunistic vote on a wagon that was rolling, rather than one grounded in legitimate suspicion.

Umm, you didn't answer my question. Who did I have more 'legitimate suspicion on than Weuler? Would you rather I voted a vanity wagon or just didn't vote at all? Tell me what town!BBT should have done.

I reread your ISO wrt cactus and your dislike of their play, and I'll summarise it here along with my thoughts.
519 - criticising cactus' entrance; I don't really get the hate for cactus' early posts, they were aggressive sure but asking game-centric relevant questions. I don't read that as scum, trying to jumpstart the game.
519 - criticising cactus's attempt to get charles to actually post; I read this as trying to pressure the slot to actually attend the game. Maybe aggressively so.
519 - some interesting back and forth re. elements; I like this from BBT.
689 - "Talk more about how the fear of leadership _definitely_ coming from town?" - nitpicking the choice of vocab.
then today
789 - Three points, none of them really elaborated on.
"Bad push on Brick" - Specifically what was bad about it? You haven't really highlighted anything you think is bad about that push.
"Obsessed with my slot when it was an easy push" - I really don't read obsession into their ISO on this. Yes, they posted a lot about the slot, but a lot of it was when using it to justify voting Weuler. Also what would scum have gained from obsessing over a lurking player?
"Says many things that don't make sense" - Same as point 1, examples rather than just 'they bad, i vote'.

So we agree that your accusation of my read on Cactus being uninformed was just wrong? Instead, we have now shifted the goalposts to you not liking my reasoning for scum reading Cactus? Just so we're both clear on what's just happened.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Elements, why aren't you voting?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Crazy how I'm gunning for Cactus and he is just pretending I don't exist.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know if I like that or not.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why would I read Brick as scum? I was speaking from your perspective. You scum read Brick for saying he was town and he will flip town etc, why does that same read not apply to Cactus?

You can't tell me how to play as town for the EoD1 because that event is in the past and cannot be changed. You're extremely safe in answering that question. Go for it.

I see, that's fair enough. I guess I could go into Cactus in detail at some point.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I got prodded.

Will post tonight, apologies for not getting around to this last night.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Okay, I will give the obvious answer: I'd rather you built a convincing case based on solid observations and voted for that, rather than Weuler.

You don't think my reasoning for voting Weuler was solid?

I am interested in this, for sure. Not just in a sense of 'okay, prove it' sorta thing, but like, I could be sold on cactus case if it was actually solid and not just based on them being to-the-point with people.

I'll definitely get around to this, just not tonight.

Absolutely not. That really is stoking the fires. It has only just settled down.

It is there for you to see, ISO cactus and myself and you'll find what you are looking for.

The reason I was asking you to quote was to see if you had similar thoughts to my own about where his aggression was directed.

Idk but that might be a fun gimmick for a game. You vote for pairs of players rather than individual ones, if both players are the same alignment they get eliminated, if not the day ends in a no lim

This would actually be so good.

Wagon analysis

Crazy how I'm gunning for Cactus and he is just pretending I don't exist.

Crazy how your questions don't lead anywhere

OK, so do some wagon analysis then instead of asking someone else what they thought about the EoD vanity wagons. Like, in what way does that relate to wagon analysis. (Can't remember who was asking but this is a perfect example of Cactus saying things that don't make sense)

The hypocrisy of 'my questions don't lead anywhere' is genuinely laughable.

... have you not read my posting this day? BBT is my highest suspicion from those four. That's why I didn't answer it before, I thought it was obvious...

Break it down into a nice sentence, or two, about why I'm scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hmm, OK. I realise this method is flawed before I say it but Cactus' scum play reminds me of my own.

In this sentence, there is an implied "scum play" at the end, drawn from the parallel with cactus. The sentence would read with the meaning you want if it went "Cactus' play reminds me of my own scum play." The word "scum" has no place in conjunction with "cactus's play" unless you are positioning yourself as possessing knowledge about how cactus plays scum. I cannot think of many ways for you to know that. 1) you and cactus are scum partners, or 2) you have seen cactus play scum somewhere else. You rather rudely refused to elaborate or even correct your mistaken wording. I am left with nothing but those two possibilities or the possibility that you are falsely claiming knowledge about cactus which you do not have, which I find rather scummy also.

Further, the use of a methodology which you yourself acknowledge to be flawed like comparing someone's play to your own and drawing alignment conclusions from it comes off especially strange given your sig.

I'm going to do this once and once only. The word scum is in conjunction with Cactus' play because I am scum reading Cactus, it's that simple. I view Cactus as scum, as such, Cactus' play will be described as scummy. If I could be bothered, I could genuinely find 1,000s of examples of me speaking in definitive terms when not knowing somebody's alignment. You're just gonna have to take my word for it until post-game though.

I'm also not exclusively scum reading Cactus because his scum play resembles mine, but I feel like you already know this.

I'm saying my suspicion of Idle was overtaken by my suspicion of you. And you're higher on my potential scum rating than cactus.

That is convenient.

VOTE: Pavowski

What you doing?

VOTE: Pavowski

What you doing?

Thanks for the clarity.

Cactus continues to be aggressive enough that I think it's consistent and not manufactured. I think I'm ready to townlean here for now.

UNVOTE:

This makes me big sad. Is playstyle AI? What if Cactus is aggressive as either alignment?

Vanity wagons are scummy

Why?

UNVOTE:
I've decided I don't like the wagon

That's much better.

Vote Cactus?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT help me out here
who do you think is a likely cactus' partner?

Aureal/Idle.

I thought it was more likely to be Idle but I'm not so sure now.

Would be funny if Cactus was town and scum team was Idle/Aureal. Not funny like haha, but funny like slam a fork into my eye.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know which one I'd vote

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, which is interesting given that Aureal scum reads him but seems unwilling to vote there.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I wanted a cactus wagon but no one was biting

Elements, why don't you want a Cactus wagon anymore?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I call bogus reasoning.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And a page top.

Noice.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You could explain your reasoning?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I am starting to feel like this is probably reasonably like Pav's normal style though. He's played with Elements and Meg before, and on D1 they were all like "Pav feels natural" and "Pav is town" so

I had to just kind of shrug and resign myself to this being the status quo even though I was pretty suspicious of him

.

This is exactly what scum would do.

Know who else is overly certain? Cactus. Whom you've said is playing like you do when you are scum.

Yeah, we should elim him. Wanna vote him now?

Yeah, which is interesting given that Aureal scum reads him but seems unwilling to vote there.

Cite for me scum reading cactus?

You must be trolling me.

How could it be? You hadn't even read half the game.

Umm, I have already referenced my posts towards Weuler in my ISO. It was more than enough from what I had read.

Have you read posts #917, 918, and 988?
Let's see you do some wagon analysis. What do you think about Aureal's defense of the Meg and Weuler and decision to vanity wagon?

Your 917 and 918 contain next to nothing for wagon analysis. 988 could potentially hold some merit if you can show me evidence? Especially the 'setting people up' part.

Vanity wagons are scummy

Why?

Put more thought into what you actually want to know. I'll instead answer the question "Why do you think Aureal's vanity vote is scummy?"
Weuler was scummy so Aureal should think Weuler is scum unless she has a reason to not think he's scum
Aureal does not have a reason to think Weuler is town but is defending him.
Therefore, Aureal is scum

Umm, what? No, you said vanity wagons are scummy. I asked why. You then shifted the goalposts to 'Aureal's vanity vote was scummy' which is different to your initial generalisation which I asked about. Another example of you saying things that don't make sense.

Weuler was scummy because you say so? Or I say so? Clearly the people who thought Weuler was scum were wrong so now you're scum reading someone who was correctly town reading Weuler? Having ISO'd Aureal for their Weuler read, I think it flows pretty naturally. What are you seeing?

You don't think my reasoning for voting Weuler was solid?

No, I don't.

Well, it was.

Wagon composition.

I don't understand why you voted me, Elements.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Both Aureal and Idle picking apart my reasoning for voting Weuler makes it unlikely they're both scum FMPOV.

996 has me thinking that Idle could be town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hmm, is Aureal piggy backing off the back of Idle's posts.

They did it with me and my Weuler vote and they've just done it again with Idle questioning Elements.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you just talk about the wagon composition comment for me?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I had misread the reasoning behind that, hence my confusion.

That makes it pretty obvious. I don't think both Aureal and Idle can be scum together.

PEdit - Brick, can we not do Pav?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Reads like the above are much more likely to come from town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Aureal

E-1

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's dumb.

You can never be more sure of someone else's alignment over your own.

Also, your reasons for town reading Cactus are bogus.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

do you know what it is?

I think you've made it pretty clear, yeah.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

do you not agree?

Absolutely not.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Not really. It just isn't.

I think you need to look closer at start of D2.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think you should.

Voting, or not voting, or requesting people to unvote, is important.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Me too

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Another example of Cactus saying things that don't make sense.

If anyone is counting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How can I both defend Aureal and create distance?

In what way am I discouraging people from pushing Aureal?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Well, Aureal and Cactus cross voting sure is interesting.

Intent to hammer Cactus

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm surprised Elements is voting Cactus.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Cactus

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I really don't think Elements is scum

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If Elements is scum, why drop the Mason read and bus?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Cactus' early push on Elements doesn't feel bussy.

Idle scum reading Elements for aggression but town reading Cactus for the same thing could easily be a partner defending though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Idle thinking I 'outed' Pav is interesting as well. Did it read that obviously to everybody else?

Or did I just tip scum off on who to kill

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't think I am ever voting Elements or Brick.

So whichever is town out of Idle/Aureal, I

really

need you to town it up.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Talk to me about the scum totally being Elements.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, talk about how you landed on Elements being scum over me?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why reverse the Mason read?

Elements was sure that Cactus was Mason, she didn't have to backtrack on it at all.

How do you think Elements was trying to manipulate your vote? Where do you think she wanted you to vote when she said 'inb4Aurealvotesme'?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because Elements really didn't have to reverse that read.

Especially as it seems that I was the only person who knew what her read was based on.

I thought the interpretation would be the same as you - to discourage you from voting Elements. But surely then, that would mean your vote would go to Cactus, no? Why would Elements want that?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not seeing Aureal anymore atm but I will re-evaluate post flip

Talk about this please, Elements?

That was a quick switch.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If I'm scum with Cactus I can just say in response to BBT anything along the lines of "yea sure I see where you're coming from I guess I might be wrong. I still think Aureal has the best chance of flipping scum" and keep my vote on Aureal.

This is exactly what I'm thinking atm.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The biggest point for Elements not being scum is that she really didn't have to join the Cactus wagon.

She could have steered well clear and held a decent enough position to do so.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

To do exactly what you're doing now?

This is the third(?) time you've mentioned yourself doing that. It's entirely possible that you were hoping someone else would bring that up and use it as reasoning for why you're town. And when they haven't, you've had to do it yourself.

The act in itself appears townie. The referring back to it yourself to get town cred is scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Idle

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If Elements is scum they've played very well IMO

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think so yeah, but she's starting to convince me

I really don't like your last question

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know what else she would say/do though except for 'everyone else is town and you're scum' outside of pushing you. We're just at that point of the game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, that's one of the only reasons I haven't voted you yet.

Your tone in general reads as a townie in general though. Inconsistency has never, and will never, be a scum tell. I maintain that inconsistency is much more likely to come from town than scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Aureal, I would like to see you at least comment on Element's case on Idle.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think as long as we elim Idle/Aureal we win the game.

I don't think I can bring myself to vote either Elements or Brickwall outside of something drastic happening.

I think game ends with an Idle elim anyway.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If we're wrong on Idle then it's Aureal, but I do think that Elements should be properly checked through first, just in case.

Don't vote out the gate.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm only slightly paranoid that I've got Brickwall completely wrong.

If he's scum though, he deserves to win so I'm really not entertaining that thought a whole lot.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Idle/Cactus early game reads s/s pretty strongly so I'm reasonably confident we win Today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Standard.

I'm actually over this game. I hate ELo and I feel like whenever I'm in this situation I always get it wrong.

Like I'm supposed to just vote Aureal here, right? Then Elements hammers, Elements is scum and I hate myself.

How can Elements be scum though? It makes 0 sense

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Elements, if you're scum, who would you have killed?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wow

VOTE: elements

[BlueBloodedToffee]

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I usually really don't like them.

It's awkward if you're the one making the final decision. If I'm the one cross voting, I don't mind so much.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Good game everyone and well played!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sorry!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thanks!

I actually didn't want to push Cactus all the way to elim. Elements reversing her Mason read on Cactus put me in a difficult position.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah I was a little worried about that being brought up tbh.

Was just gonna use the 'scum slip' as my defence

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It was a combination of things to be honest. The first thing was actually this post;

I am shocked and sad, and also shocked and also sad

Then I ISO'd Pav, saw no votes for Meg and saw the post asking for an unvote.

ISO'd Meg and it became clear it was Pav.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I didn't realise you thought I was Mason, what with you saying I scum slipped and all

In all seriousness though, I thought your meta reading of Charles was super townie and I thought it would have bought you more town cred than it did. Which is why I tried to dismiss it immediately.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thanks for modding, Alianna.

Was a fun game.