Newbie 2115 - Game Over

[Deltabreedy]

Hi everyone! Hope we all have a good game. Do feel free to abbreviate me to 'Delta' or 'Tom' at your discretion when referencing me.

VOTE: omi

That intro is trying way too hard

nope he has the same energy as before,

definitely townie

besides it's the same principle we followed for 2112, it's objectively antitown to hammer without letting the accused have their last say

I dislike this.

VOTE: Patchwork

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*
nope he has the same energy as before, definitely townie
*snip*

I put it in bold but it doesn't show up too well on the dark theme, not sure what you're using Omi, but the above sentence.

Patchwork has said, page one, that you're 'Definitely Townie', presumably based off of meta but that's something pretty solid to be saying page one, off the back of what, 1 or 2 posts?

To me that's quirky, silly and goofy. And voteworthy.

[Deltabreedy]

EBWOP: Fixing the post above.

VOTE: omi

That intro is trying way too hard

nope he has the same energy as before, definitely townie
*snip*

I put it in bold but it doesn't show up too well on the dark theme, not sure what you're using Omi, but the above sentence.

Patchwork has said, page one, that you're 'Definitely Townie', presumably based off of meta but that's something pretty solid to be saying page one, off the back of what, 1 or 2 posts?

To me that's quirky, silly and goofy. And voteworthy.

[Deltabreedy]

A gutread is 'I think they're likely town, based on gameplay in [X] finished game.'

What you said was

definitely townie

.

Maybe a subtle difference but that has really ruffled my feathers.

[Deltabreedy]

It's Day one, the only people who can truly say that someone is 'definitely townie' are the mafia.

The 'Golden Rule' was the very first post, and it's a post that can be made by either alignment very very easily. It's not in any way an indicator of alignment.

Additionally you're quite defensive of Omicron in #13, then backtracking in #14 by saying 'I forgot it's RVS'. Again I just don't see that coming from a town-sided alignment, even in RVS.

For the record, my vote from my initial post was not an RVS vote, and I think we're out of that stage reasonably quickly at this stage into the meat of the matter.

[Deltabreedy]

We may well agree to disagree. I don't hold reads on anyone page one that I would preface with 'Definitely', and I think that is a scumslip.

What exactly about the first post in the game by a player suggests that they are 'Definitely' town?

@Kawaii, I'd be keen on getting your thoughts on the above whilst you're here. Best part of 1/3 the posts and you haven't acknowledged them as of writing.

Ninja'd:

Catboi - I'd say between forum mafia on various platforms, epicmafia and running games in tabletop simulator a fair amount.

[Deltabreedy]

Didn't quantify my experience - I'd say fairly robust experience in a number of different settings including forum-based mafia when I was about half my current age, so a fair old while ago.

[Deltabreedy]

I think that's a fair assessment. The use of

Definitely

on page one just leaps out at me as not something that someone who is town would write.

Ninja'd:

I'm referring to the back-and-forth between Patchwork and I. Post #24 onwards.

[Deltabreedy]

I think partially if I was to be moderate, I think I would also say it's partially based on the inital blind reaction to meta. I know that when playing in TTS, I'm pretty good at regulating my own meta across Mafia, Secret Hitler and things like that. As such I have an innate distrust of most arguments that refer to meta, just naturally in my experience over the last 5 years that has been in-personish meta.

I think if nothing else, I do feel like we've pushed out of RVS into productive read-generating time, just so happens I have reasonably confident scumread on Patchwork. I happen to find Omigron's #25 to be a slight town read which in a bit of a circular way makes me a bit more confident on my Patch read.

I'd be keen on getting a little more on why you think it's plausible to claim someone to be definitely townie halfway down page one? I don't see it.

[Deltabreedy]

I disagree, but I think that disagreement with you on #45 is motivated more by my own experience than anything necessarily wrong with what you're saying.

[Deltabreedy]

@Omigron

What are your thoughts on Patch?

I'm also keen to hear why Catboi is town, Patch.

I might be a bit early in calling the end of RVS, but I think we're either at or past the end of it, so with that does your vote on Omi remain, Bella? You said you feel nothing but still have your vote on them is all.

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*

Bellaphant

: I agree with your post #61, but your participation has not been enough to get you aligned anywhere.

*snip*

What part of #61 do you agree with?

[Deltabreedy]

@Omigron:

*snip*

AurorusVox

: Contrary to what Deltabreedy thinks, I think it's more difficult for a scum to tag townies so quickly and that's what AurorusVox did with great freshness, mentioning his first impressions naturally and quickly. However, I agree with catboi that labeling Bella as townie with her first post is weird.
*snip*

If you're being honest here and you say that you agree with Bella's assertion that I'm more convincing than Patch, how do you go on in the same post to contradict that and say that you think completely to the contrary?

I'm feeling some pretty negative vibes from the last few posts that Omi has made - and when I look at the interactions between Patch and Omi (Patch claiming in #8

(the 4th post in the game)

) the following:

*snip*
nope he has the same energy as before, definitely townie
*snip*

I can't help but to feel that there is a minimum of one mafioso in Patch and Omi.

I am more confident in my read on Patch than I am on Omi at this point, so my vote will remain on Patch, but the contradictory nature of Omi's #69

(nice)

when it comes to the AurorusVox section and the clarification of their Bella read above don't sit well with me at all.

@Omigron: Can I get more detail on your read on Patch? You don't really seem to have acknowledged the conversation so far beyond a very shallow, high-level read list which I don't feel said much, but with lots of words?

[Deltabreedy]

Newbie 2113 is a game-in-progress which I understand it is strictly forbidden to discuss.

[Deltabreedy]

Forgive me for pressing the point Patch, but you said that in Post #8 as a response to Post #5, Omi's sole post in the thread at that point.

Saying it's because of the style of posting and not that first post is demonstrably untrue.

[Deltabreedy]

We've got a reasonable bit of gameplay in now PoD, welcome.

Manage my expectations - when can we expect an update on your views on what's happened so far?

Ninja'd: yeah cool that works

[Deltabreedy]

Right, that's a little to unpack. I'll be back to share my thoughts in the next 2-3 hours.

Long and short from a brief glance, holy sh*t that's scummy. More to follow.

Ninja'd:
Stuff on Vox uhh I'll have a look in a bit

Ninja'd Twice:
More stuff on Vox

Ninja'd Thrice:
Ahhhhhh

[Deltabreedy]

TL:DR:

Intention to Hammer Omigron

.

After what we've just witnessed, it's going to be easy for Scum to be on the wagon. Omigron is extremely limmable right now, and I've spent a good while deciding whether to declare intention to hammer. It's going to conjure more townie points to be on the wagon than off it, if Omigron flips scum.

Part of me sees the motivation in asking the question, in terms of trying to trip a percieved newbscum up (not that I'm saying you're scum PoD, or a newb for that matter) - but that is also alternatively and overweighted by what Vox pointed out - it's PR hunting. Town PR's will naturally play slightly differently (and one would imagine in a more pronounced way in a newbie game) than would a VT or a Mafioso, and by asking the question it really is an off thing to do.

My gut tells me that hammering this early would be perhaps not the best idea, I think there is pages of valuable discussion and insight to be taken from D1, but I fear that most of that will be overshadowed by what has taken place above.

For me, I think the buddying from Patchwork, the actions taken by Omigron and the lack of real scumhunting questioning from either suggest to me that there is no-one better as a suspects in my opinion.

With that said, @Omigron: consider this my

intention to hammer

in the next 24 hours pending activity. I'm aware that they aren't online as of writing so not keen to set a stringent timescale on it at present.

If Omigron flips scum as I believe they will, I want to hear who people believe would be a viable partner for them, since I'm quite conscious that I've had a very narrow focus so far this game and I am open to critique of the logic on my Patchwork read. The fact that I think the read is solid irregardless of Omigron's alignment indicates to me that there may be a flaw I haven't seen, and that it's potentially tunnelly.

Terminology edited

[Deltabreedy]

I agree.

Manage my expectations on this everyone - can we commit in the next 16 hours or so to a readlist and an overview of the game from everyone, and an indication on what you think the next course of action should be.

[Deltabreedy]

From me, I think I've been reasonably clear on who I think the Mafia are. In terms of townreads I'm perhaps a little more cautious, less cavalier but I don't have an overt townread on anyone, everything is quite slight.

I'd say I am null on PoD, Catboi & Kawaii, leaning town on everyone else to an extent but nothing more beyond 'a smidge more than null'.

Ninja'd:
I mean I'm calling it as I see it Patch.

@everyone: The line of reasoning I'm calling attention & potential critique to is this, in descending order of argument strength:

The use of definitely on page one (post 4 of the game) when describing someone's alignment and being serious (as demonstrated by their #34) and the lack of any genuine scumhunting indicates to me that there isn't any town-aligned motivation behind their posts.

My next point I think may suffer a bit from confirmation bias:

In Patch's post #127 it feels like a post designed to appeal to all. It reference's Omigron's original post RE: the golden rule, appears to stymie a potential hammer without any call for constructive conversation, but then also critiques PoD for mentioning a hammer? It feels very much like 'I'm a good townie, and this can be shown because I didn't want a speedlim' which I get but it also feels... off.

Finally, and this is potentially my shakiest point:

A huge reliance on meta. The usage to me seems to be as follows: {Player} did X in Y game, therefore similar behaviour must mean they are X in this game! There's elements of this as above with their early read on Omigron (which has now been rescinded), but also in the read on Vox, which looks to me like an attempt to throw suspicion away from the wagon by referencing a time that Vox was scum.

The issue with this is that I think it provides a strong platform for them generating reads easily without relying on scumhunting skills - I believe this allows them to generate reads and justify them without needing to risk exposing prior knowledge of alignment, and can be very easily manipulated. I am, however, aware that my own playstyle and distaste for meta justifications.

Terminology replaced - Nexus

[Deltabreedy]

The wagon is L-1 on Omi, I've declared intention to hammer on Omi.

Getting uber defensive and using weak justifications like 'Im a newbie' is disingenuous at best, and painting my argument as coming from a place of pure subjectivity is a wild misrepresentation of my argument.

The thing that keeps coming up is that you're being entirely defensive in a scenario where you aren't the person at L-1. There is still seemingly no effort put into scumhunting, no questions or conversations and an ISO of your posts shows that #128 is quite literally the ONLY time you have asked a question of someone else. I see no effort put into asking questions to clarify your leads, I see that a vast amount of your posts are self-serving rather than town-serving be they defensive posts or

[Deltabreedy]

EBWOP:

...be they defensive posts or simple clarifications of townreads. Nothing that you have done so far appears to come from a genuine place of active town-aligned posting because there is no apparent motivation to find scum, and I think if it wasn't for OMIGRON's... thing that you still wouldn't even have a clear scumread on anyone that was communicated to us.

@Patch:

Who do you think would be Omigron's partner should they flip scum? This can be a pool of people, but I'd like reasoning behind it.
What do you consider to be a reliance on meta? Because you refuted it and then in the next 'rebuttal' if it can be called as such, said:

i said vox liked to bus in response

which is a direct reference to a player's meta from another game.

Help me to see what you think I'm not seeing here, because at present I could go for a Patch elimination over an Omi elimination and feel confident of a scumflip.

Terminology replaced - Nexus

[Deltabreedy]

My bad - poor habit from playing in other places. I'll work to remove that from my language here and if it comes up again please call me out on it.

[Deltabreedy]

Can anyone give me good reasons to shift my train of thought away from Patch for a D2 elimination?

[Deltabreedy]

And uhh yeah don’t chain lims delta. There’s plenty could happen between now and d2

Yeah this is why I'm courting critique on my thought process.

[Deltabreedy]

I... don't understand how you can have already played Newbie games here and not know how the Newbie setups work. It's pretty prominent in the queue thread, nevermind the fact that you've played at least one already.

My gut says that Omi is newtown having an absolute arse of a day one because of a weird gambit. Scum would at least make an effort to defend themselves in my opinion. I don't think there's been an overly productive 24 hours from Omi in terms of progressing but in my mind a mafioso would at least make reference to the wagon? My issue with that is that the play is so obtusely anti-town that it only benefits the mafia, because I can see this being a point that we labour over again and again and again going on until game end. Part of me wants to be up for a policy elimination but I just don't think we're there yet.

Did anyone else notice how fast Patch jumped from suspecting Omi and latched onto Cat's Vox case? Pretty wild turnaround with zero justification.

Ninja'd:

To be fair Bella, I get your reads but not your reasoning. A quick ISO and I'm none the wiser. Post #163 states that you have 'questions about all the rest!'. When will we hear them all?

[Deltabreedy]

I lowkey forgot Kawaii was playing.

It's been about 48 hours since they last posted in this game, and they're active across other games since.

[Deltabreedy]

Cat why do you think Patch is town?

[Deltabreedy]

@Cat

Why do you think Patch is town?

[Deltabreedy]

Omi if you're scumreading Bella why aren't you voting them?

[Deltabreedy]

Patch who do you think is scum?

Cause it looks like you really want to vote Omi, but you're voting Vox for voting for Omi?

Ninja'd:

Right no more indecision or inviting critique, because I'm a bit done with the awful case on Vox and I'm not seeing Omi!scum at present.

The only scumread that has both gained in strength and been consistently reinforced by their posts is Patch.

This isn't a tunnel, this isn't town on town. This is me v scum and I won't be happy at this stage with anything but a Patch elimination.

[Deltabreedy]

Patch is smarter than this - the current 'confusion' is so painfully an act that it's obvious, and I'm growing increasingly frustrated that they've managed to turn several of you into saying it's town v town, when

every single one of the points I have made

has gone broadly uncontested or very weakly referred to as tunnelling.

If I were tunnelling, I wouldn't have invited critique numerous times. If I were tunnelling, I wouldn't have declared intent to hammer Omi.

What do you all need from me by way of convincing? I'm happy to sit down in the next 24 hours and draft a wall if that's what it takes.

[Deltabreedy]

Also we need more from Kawaii and Dio, particularly Kawaii, given all they've done is pop their head in.

[Deltabreedy]

'You can't read me as scum, I've acted pretty town!'

You've floundered since your first post contained a scumslip. Your questioning of others has been bare-bones at minimum, you have commented on things happening in the game but rarely if ever contributed to them, you're flip-flopping all over the place in terms of reads and now say you have none? Like how?

The only way I see that happening is by you being part of the mafia. Everyone else is town apart from your buddy, so it's hard to generate scumreads because you have to falsify them.

When it comes to being subjective - yeah? No-one (except mafia) have any objective information to go off of. All anyone can go off of D1 is their subjective interpretation of what has been objectively posted in the thread. Trying to shout down my argument by saying 'it's subjective!' isn't a defence, it's a fact of the game?

---

I appreciate you may be neurodivergent, but that's not something that I can really take into account in a game of mafia. How do I integrate that into my opinions? All I can do is judge ones read in-game by their words, and I won't be changing my read as a result of what you said. I'll try and be mindful of it but I can't promise much else.

I'm enjoying this game, but I'd hate to think my gameplay is disrupting someone's enjoyment of the game so I'll mitigate that by iterating clearly that this is a game, none of it is personal and none of it is personal attacks or owt.

--

@Ninja'd: Will get back to you in due course Vox, just want to get this post out & I'm on the phone tippy tapping this out.

[Deltabreedy]

@delta, what has omi done to make you think he’s not scum now? Ie what has changed since your declared intent to hammer?

*Snip*

Broadly, I think that Scum!Omi would have floundered and defended themselves more rather than double down on analysing people.

I think their play is still pretty poor, as pointed out by the contradictions in their reads but I've fairly rapidly had my gut change from scum!Omi to a null read.

I have stronger scumreads, so Omi is no longer a priority of mine.

@Vox:

Back at you, would you be opposed to a Patch elimination? If so, why?

Ninjad: Patch this was literally my original argument against you.

Terminology changed - Nexus

[Deltabreedy]

My bad - apologies.

@Nexus: Can we have a Edit By Way of Mod?

[Deltabreedy]

The vast majority of Patch's gameplay so far has been summaries, reactions and defending themselves OVER any kind of proactivity in finding scum.

Tell you what Patch, give me a viable case on someone to follow, one that has justification and that I can follow the logic on and I'll switch vote.

If you are unable to do this on anyone scummier than you, I will tunnel on you and do everything I can to make sure you're eliminated.

[Deltabreedy]

Remains to be seen.

Manage my expectations: who do you think it'll be on, and when will you have it for us all?

[Deltabreedy]

I think that's a good post.

I don't think it's for me to necessarily correct or strengthen your read (as a gut feel I don't fully agree), but I get your reasonings.

In the meantime, why don't you have a scumread on Patch?

[Deltabreedy]

As an addition to all of this, I think we're sleeping on Kawaii here. They're active in other games across the site, they've been active in online users several times and have absolutely coasted in this game.

I'm starting to turn my null read into a scum/policy lim read.

[Deltabreedy]

That's cool - give me a deadline that you're going to be accountable to.

In the meantime I'll go back to exploring other options. Best of luck on the assignments.

---

Everyone, what do we do about Kawaii?

[Deltabreedy]

They did, so a prod won't be due for at least another 24 hours. That said, the post was minimal, and prior to that they had a lot of things to say in other games. This sits incredibly poorly with me.

[Deltabreedy]

Bit defensive there?

A quick ISO and I'm not much clearer on where you stand on most people. Has your opinion of Omi shifted, do you have any bad vibes from anyone else etc?

[Deltabreedy]

Just subscribe to the topic. We shouldn't have to beg for your attention.

Whilst you're here - can you catch up on everything real quick and toss us some thoughts?

[Deltabreedy]

As a trend, Townie players are often a bit more cavalier in my experience.

Flip-flopping votes and latching onto other cases is a good way to seem productive and townie without actually doing anything. I think you all know my stance on patchwork and their gameplay so far.

[Deltabreedy]

I think you're wrong, PoD. I also dislike how Kawaii is happy to bring Omi to E-1 without contributing anything of any real value since game start.

Honestly?

FoS: Kawaii

Active lurking, preparing to jump on a bandwagon with low-no value posts and no justification?

One thing stinks for a similar reason that I wasn't townreading Cat. Cat said early on not to expect too much which I've long-seen as a justification for active lurking, but they've been here and present?

Kawaii has been very active in games across the site, has come in and not contributed anything except preparing to jump on a wagon, and then had the gall to essentially say 'if you want me to pay attention, vote me'. Honestly, even if that's not scummy to some people, I don't think it's deniable that it's inherently anti-town behaviour and worthy of intense scrutiny.

[Deltabreedy]

Cat, lets have your thoughts on Patch following your vote with little justification from themselves please.
PoD, the same from Kawaii bearing in mind what I have said above in #297.

[Deltabreedy]

EBWOP: The same regarding kawaii, PoD.

[Deltabreedy]

The only way you incur meta is by making reference to other games - I've not looked at the other games in any detail other to confirm that they're posting, actively. I could even tell you that Kawaii is active because I check the activity tracker every time I post at the bottom of the main page and they're frequently there, without posting in this game. The lack of activity is one thing, the lack of contribution during bursts of activity speaks much more.

We're not flipping Omicron today.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm divided with reading 0mi, potentially outing prs is usually an auto vote to me though I feel 0mi is curious, the way 0mi communicates/questions pings semi town to me, I'm not opposed to his reasoning even though it is confusing me at times, Idk how much value/utility flipping 0mi gives, though delta's absolute defense of 0mni has me on edge he's being protected by a potential partner

Delta is swinging in hard with aggressiveness, I like the aggression to me now, rightfully calling me out and wanting pursuing me since I've failed to engage, I do not like him saying town is not flipping 0mi today, that's up to town, I'm also uncertain why Delta was down to flip 0mi and is now suddenly not, is it because I implied I wanted to put 0mi at E-I? Maybe

*snip*

*snip*

Broadly, I think that Scum!Omi would have floundered and defended themselves more rather than double down on analysing people.

I think their play is still pretty poor, as pointed out by the contradictions in their reads but I've fairly rapidly had my gut change from scum!Omi to a null read.

I have stronger scumreads, so Omi is no longer a priority of mine.

*snip*

For the record, if you want to have a look at someone defending Omi absolutely, Have a look at Patchwork's #202 onwards, from which in the space of 4 minutes Patch overturns their viewpoint 180 and sheeps behind Cat on Vox.

We aren't eliminating Omi today because as I say, there is significantly better targets for a lim, including you @Kawaii. In your own #328 you do say yourself that Omi is pinging town so I don't follow why you would argue against someone saying we aren't doing that? It feels like a semantic point at best.

*snip*

Delta - *snip* I also feel like in #290 you are sort of contradicting your patches read slightly? You say townie players are generally cavalier which I think is a word that can definitely be applied to patch?

*snip*

Not really, there's cavalier, and then there is sheeping. They aren't the same activity, and being cavalier typically to me suggests a proactivity in generating content and cases on scumreads, it suggests intention behind what you're doing, neither of which they have done.

Honestly, yeah at this stage it's tunnelling, but apart from @Kawaii there's no-one else at the moment that jumps out at me in any overt or meaningful way and my read on Patches has developed organically from what I see as an initial slip, right the way through the day thus far.

From scumslip
To flip-flopping on votes
To Sheeping easy arguments and blindly following someone I nullread
To Misrepresenting my arguments
To Promising analysis but never delivering

There's worse things to be than tunneled on scum.

The best counter I've seen so far is that (as a generalisation) 'the vibes are town' - please correct me if I may have missed anything on Patch.

[Deltabreedy]

/in before another 'you're wrong, tunnel exit that way, this is boring' post.

[Deltabreedy]

Is that just a gameplay preference or is there anything to it? I'm unclear.

[Deltabreedy]

@Patch what is your current read on Omi?

Ninja'd Patch: Oh jeezy peeps Patch, you townread Omi but you're telling Kawaii to push the vote to E-1

How am I the only one seeing this

--
Ninja'd Kawaii: Town also wants to control the votes and put them on mafia, if you took Omi to E-1 and someone hammered, I strongly suspect they would flip town. Oddly, I think it'd be better to hit mafia.

Don't get me wrong, I think as town you should always be advocating your strongest read and voting it, but the fact that you withheld putting it on Omi suggests that you're either cautious scum or unsure town. Personally, I lean scum on this since I think you're being cautious as a result of the talk about E-1 and things like that earlier and the active lurking earlier. I also get the sense that Omi would have been an easy wagon to join had I not been so vehement in saying that it's not today's play.

Where is your vote going now then? Because it's the single strongest tool you have (if you're town), and you're not using it.

[Deltabreedy]

I mean I'll take it on faith that you misspoke there, but what you said was

if you don't like it just hang omi

[Deltabreedy]

One of Patch or Kawaii for me today. I could be persuaded to hop off Patch.

[Deltabreedy]

I don't think that's an overly strong case myself - when I read it it looks like the pair of you are inviting a load of WIFOM and I just don't see either argument.

The only sentence I agree wholeheartedly with is PoD saying that Omi's flip would give us a lot of information, but you could say that of any flip so even then it adds nothing really to the discourse.

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*I would like to undertand what is the A LOT OF information you can get with

my death

. Please give me an example.

A flip, not specifically your death.

When someone is flipped and their alignment is revealed, that's the only publically-available objective information that everyone can see. With the information from that alignment, you can infer certain things about people's arguments leading up to the elimination, and you can revisit their arguments to see whether in hindsight they stand up to scrutiny.

[Deltabreedy]

Read my #385 again. I've already covered this there.

I dont really think either your or their argument holds much merit but I'm also really struggling to get scumvibes from PoD on this. I'll dedicate myself to an ISO later on today and have a ganders at the argument in full but honestly I think it's just a WIFOM hole.

[Deltabreedy]

I'd agree with that, when I look at the post now actually I do see that it says a lot of words without really saying anything at all?

Like yeah, we'll get information, but then PoD goes on to push a load of WIFOM eventualities that is a pretty nasty post.

Slight scumread on PoD after that, down from null.

[Deltabreedy]

Counterpoint, vote for Patch

[Deltabreedy]

I'll be honest, I couldn't give a flying fudge what you did in previous games.

You're never going to convince anyone by basically saying 'I'm better than you'.

[Deltabreedy]

In what world did you think #396 would land well?

[Deltabreedy]

You're here to convince the others of your argument, and a certain amount of tact is required in that.

When it comes to it, I have stronger reads with better justification and you'll have to do better than 'I'm better than you at this' in order to actually convince me that PoD is today's lim.

Out of interest, why aren't you interested in a Patch or Kawaii lim? I've made my case and your #395 honestly makes no sense except for 'well they weren't scum in other games?'.

[Deltabreedy]

On that - @Patch still waiting on the 2-3 analyses we were promised.

[Deltabreedy]

Can you clarify your stance on Patch because #395 didn't make too much sense unfortunately.

[Deltabreedy]

This is nothing to do with ego or anything, it's about how you approach convincing people of your argument.

I declared intention to hammer you, I've had my vote on someone other than Patch recently and I've actively considered your argument. Saying that doesn't let me see a wide panorama is objectively a misrepresentation of what's happened.

Now please, clarify your stance on Patch.

[Deltabreedy]

When you look at the content of their posts, barely any original thoughts have emerged. It's easy to post a lot without actually making any real change to the game.

Also, what is it about Dionysus' 16 posts that you think makes them town compared to the activity of both Kawaii and PoD? You've literally disproven your own point and suggested that you're making an easy argument.

Ninja'd by Kawaii: I think that's the first thing we've agreed on all game.

[Deltabreedy]

So do you see how when Patch is sheeping onto other players' arguments for almost 100 posts, without contributing any analysis of their own that it can only really come from a non-townie position? Scum is laden with extra information on the game, specifically that they know everyone who is townie. My suspicion is that patch is struggling with the pressure of fabricating views, hence the sheeping of Catboi and 'questioning' of Vox.

Also that statement is open to interpretation, and frankly I could see Dionysus saying that irregardless of alignment. It's a weak read at best, so for you to say 'Definitely' townie is pretty wild.

[Deltabreedy]

Omi I mean this with the best of respect but god these justifications are making my head spin.

@Bella: The fact that their arguments aren't consistent suggests that they aren't genuine thought trains or arguments, and are instead completely fabricated. The only people in the game that have to fabricate cases and reads are the mafia. Pop a vote on Patch and let's see how they react. (Still waiting on 2-3 ISO analyses from them btw)

Ninja'd by Omi: Well I think Patch is scum so yeah I'm game to get Patch to L-1.

[Deltabreedy]

I believe Patch is at Lim-3.

@Nexus: Can we get an updated votecount please?

[Deltabreedy]

Cheers Mod.

As a note, I will be V/LA on Sunday, with a job, the F1 and some other bits and bobs. I think Sunday is deadline of D1.

[Deltabreedy]

Why is it so important that you hammer?

[Deltabreedy]

Sorry for my lack of engagement today, I've not had a chance to hop on and go through everything today.

This will take priority for me in the morning with fresh eyes. Additionally, I am no longer V/LA all day on Sunday (The Jeddah Grand Prix is next weekend, not this weekend - cri).

[Deltabreedy]

No counter.

For me I hate Omi's play and frankly I'm done with the writing open letters and holier-than-thou gameplay, but I don't think they're scum.

I'm still pretty rigidly of the opinion that Patch is scum and at this stage I think I'll be happy with a Kawaii or a Patch lim today. Catboi and AV I have nullreads on as it stands so I think a lim on either of them today would be a mistake.

In terms of a pool, top to bottom:

Patch
Kawaii
Av/Cat
Uses
Everyone else
Me

More to follow.

[Deltabreedy]

Having had another look over Users' post, I understand the argument on Cat. I'm still more solid on Patch/Kawaii but I could be swayed onto a Catboi vote after having a fresh look.

[Deltabreedy]

Cat's slot*

[Deltabreedy]

holy shit the dedication i could fucking never, +town for that

Idk, it's just information. I would refrain from reading into it in any meaningful way.

[Deltabreedy]

@Omi why did you flip & flip from Pod to Patch and back again?

I'm revaluating my reads and in an ISO I find the flip from voting patch to voting PoD again really jarring

[Deltabreedy]

Holy hell

@Omigron: What was so conclusive about Uses' argument that you would switch from Av v Cat's slot being Town v Town, to Cat being your top lim target?

I'm really reconsidering my townread on Omi, this seems opportunistic as hell.

[Deltabreedy]

I don't see a lim happening on cats slot and at present I'm torn between Omi & Patch. I'm significantly more solid on a Patch lim, but I don't think I would be displeased with an Omi one after the wagon jumping with literally nothing in it.

[Deltabreedy]

Why's that? What are your thoughts on their flip from catslot!town to their lim target without owt else?

[Deltabreedy]

Patch who do you think is mafia?

[Deltabreedy]

I remember Patch committing to a number of ISOs by Tuesday. It's now Sunday.

I'm firmly in the camp of believing that Patch needs to be our lim today. We then find ourselves in the position of D2 having interactions to work off of and really boil down to who their partner is.

I don't like this interaction between AV and UP.

[Deltabreedy]

I'd like to summarise it with links to posts and at present I'm on mobile. Help me manage your expectations, when do you want it?

[Deltabreedy]

Appreciated.

I can't see the full context of the quote because of the snip, but I recall that the buddying I was calling out was actually towards catboi's slot. Broadly, that in a super short amount of time, Patch hopped onto an easy argument with no justification and (again, drawing from memory) was aligning on the case against AV without saying much at all.

This was up until they committed to ISO's, which never materialised.

[Deltabreedy]

None of that answered my question.

So your logic is that you scumread patch and kawaii but not both and so by PoE cat is your chosen lim target?

Help me help you Omi - this doesn't make sense to me.

[Deltabreedy]

That's madness. Honestly madness. You didn't answer the question at all, so all I can read into that is your pet theory has imploded and you need something else to focus on. You literally have come up with no reasoning for your read.

Let me follow the argument:

When Powerofdeath claimed, I stilled thinking he is a scum.

I mean, there's no counter claims so unless someone's playing an exceptionally sneaky game, or it's a fakeclaim (which I think would have been called out if it were the case by now) this is a pointless statement.

When I did a ISO from AurorusVox and catboi, I get the conclusion: Is a possible Town vr Town.

So we saw in #656 that you think Catboi is Town.

10 minutes after that, you say that Python's post has made your head explode.
5 minutes after that, you vote for cat's slot.

Since then you haven't expanded on your thought process. Even in #711 the SOLE justification of your vote whilst we're bloody close to day end (replacement notwithstanding) is this:

Now, I consider catboi game has been a little bit neutral, now I consired it's a little bit strange he defended me openly when almost everybody was accused me, I asked myself: Maybe catboi defended me because he really know that I'm townie?

That's bloody weak, and the whole post in #711 looks fabricated and forced. Even the actual justification is a question not an 'I think [X] because [Y]'.

[Deltabreedy]

Pfft I clicked submit instead of Full Editor. More to follow.

[Deltabreedy]

The 'don't want to read and understand' line is so unnecessarily aggressive that it also suggests that Omi

knows

there is no substance behind their vote. Lash out and nip it in the bud rather than try and defend an opportunistic wagon hop.

Then let's add the PR hunting fiasco earlier. I almost feel like the scumminess went in a circle as opposed to a straight line of town to scum. They went so scummy that I was like 'nah, scum couldn't possibly do that' and then back to scummy with this whole debacle.

The vibes are dreadful, the attitude sucks, the reasoning for the vote is non-existant and now Omi is at

E-1.

UNVOTE: Patchwork
VOTE: Omigron

@AV & UP, I'll be getting back to you now.

[Deltabreedy]

Right-e-oh.

@UP:

In #137, my accusation of Patch buddying to Cat was derived from this in #56 which was based on damn near nothing. It was a much lighter read at that point than it was later in the posts you linked to.

catboy is towny

Starting with what I believe (and still believe) to be a scumslip in #8 wherein Patch responded to a critique from your slot of Omi's opening post by defending them with meta and saying 'Definitely Townie'. I don't think I need to cover why that is scummy.

At first their defence of this in #28 was that it was a gutread based on meta, backed up by #34 'I can be confident without being scummy'. However, as we've progressed through the game the defense changed to a misrepresentation of my point. Sure, I don't like the use of meta because I know that in other platforms that I play with vocals, I'm very aware of my meta and can play to and away from it. As such I'm really wary of it, but that doesn't change the fact that in their first post talking about Omi, Patch said 'Definitely Townie'.

I cover a lot of my read on Patch in #143, which since then has further developed with the buddy onto Catboi's slots's Vox argument, without any commitment or scumhunting and even the page-by-page analysis they did seemed aimed more at dissuading a push on them than adding anything? I develop my read further in #341. When Cat made their case on AV, Patch did a complete somersault off the Omi wagon and sheeped onto Cat's point without any real visible movement in their read. With the benefit of hindsight and having since seen events developed, I'm now more happy to say that this is also a scumbuddy avoiding their partner.

Patch has also justified active lurking and a lack of proactivity in scumhunting with various excuses; 'I haven't been paying attention' in #436 and 'I'm a student and I'm lazy', with #439. From there, the promised case on Kawaii (which went from Scum to Town, who knows why?) was never delivered, instead a page by page of the first 10 pages.

To sum it up - Patch has consistently failed to proactively scumhunt, they have abandoned reads and switched wagons with little to no justification. They've a massively inflated postcount whilst saying precious little at all that has added to our hunt for the mafia and at this late stage of the day I couldn't tell you who or what they think. Their reads are such a mess that they could probably adopt a new position in D2 and it would make sense when you go back to some point in their post history. I don't see Town!Patch at all and I think at this stage that they're Omi's partner.

Ninja'd by AV:

Omi switching to Patch would at least have been consistent with their posted thought pattern, but by jumping argument with no justification and reacting in the way that they did it does make my scumread on them stronger. Had they voted Patch I can't honestly say I'd have reacted the same.

I'm aware I haven't answered the question you asked me, but I want to get this out so I'll cover that in a new post.

[Deltabreedy]

Ah I think broadly I answered it above.

I'm conscious that I tend to be a bit headstrong sometimes and I find myself tunnelling easily, that's why consistently I've invited critique on my Patch case. It's as strong as ever frankly, and I'm confident in the read, but Omi pings me so strongly after that last interaction that I can't not vote for that. If I can get one of my scumreads eliminated D1, I'll be happy. I'm confident we'll see red now when Omi flips.

[Deltabreedy]

Cool, it's been 7 days since you committed to it. Is a whole 2/3rds of the game time not enough for you to proactively scumhunt & develop reads & cases? I mean you committed to the ISOs and then your reads have changed but we haven't seen any justification for it.

Start with this: What do you think of the above exchange and Omi being at E-1?

[Deltabreedy]

UNVOTE:

Hello everyone, gonna try and speed read and see what I think of the game.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

[Deltabreedy]

@UP I appreciate that viewpoint, and I'll incorporate it into D2. At present I agree with you that an Omi flip comes first (hence me putting them at E-1).

I think you're onto something with Kawaii.

[Deltabreedy]

What about the last interaction with Omi screams town and not scum at you, Bella?

[Deltabreedy]

@Kowah Can you manage our expectations - when do you think you'll be fully caught up by?

[Deltabreedy]

I think that #748 confirms OMI as scum trying to throw out statements to lead town on a merry old goosechase. The last post is such an invitation to WIFOM.

Whereabouts are we up to Kowah? And I've not seen a pattern with replacements even in ISO - I'll be interested to see about this.

Ninja'd by Omi, Kowah & then Omi again: Nothing much to add on that. I recall the Kawaii post and not engaging with the wording in the second sentence because I was so taken aback at the first sentence - but yeah it is weird wording come to think of it.

[Deltabreedy]

Just wrapped up page 15, I know this game on this site ends up having a lot of continuity in players - but I wish I could manage to convince everyone to leave old games behind. It's a brand new game here, spend more time in this one trying to figure out what's going on here rather than looking for answers to this game in other games.

This is my anti-meta crusade in a nutshell.

[Deltabreedy]

I thought that omis thought process over pod was vaguely townie because I was shocked at the claim, but the fact they won't drop it is weird.

I basically don't want to lim in AV/the cat boi slot, I could do almost anything else

This is weirdly non-committal for 11 days of gametime.

[Deltabreedy]

What are you trying to say with those quotes

[Deltabreedy]

'Omi is scummy'

3 posts later: Votes Kawaii

Give me a bloody good reason why you aren't either hammering or announcing intent to hammer, Patch.

[Deltabreedy]

Are you fully caught up now in totality, Kowah?

Ninja'd: Yeah nah cool, good to see. 32 Pages in under a day is a tonne to digest, so fair play for that.

Thoughts on the current Omi wagon? I don't have faith in Patch to hammer their partner, so would be keen on getting your most up-to-date comments and intentions on the current most pressing events.

[Deltabreedy]

What was the I S thing?

[Deltabreedy]

Ugh goddamn it.

Very well played.

[Deltabreedy]

I had a scumread. I asked several times for commentary and critique and every time there was nothing that swayed me away enough.

[Deltabreedy]

Ugh goddamn it.

Very well played.

Your tunnel Dayy 1 was incredibly ego-driven and damaging for town, try to tone it down in the future.

Disagree with this, you were tunnelling on me pretty hard and just because I was scum and patch was town doesn’t make the play made by either of you any different /shrug

"having a correct scumread is damaging to the game". Okay. That's a wild one.

Again, though, I fairly recognized that I was failing to connect with the other players in the game on a social level and so it did no benefit to me or the other players for me to remain in the game. So tryin to claim I damaged the game with that is really fucking insulting?

No-one passed comment on you replacing out and you simply failed, like I did, to convince people of your read. Both were valid tunnels and both failed. You can choose to be insulted if you want, but trying to say I was damaging town when we had a very similar D1 is what you said, not what anyone else did about either of us?

Not being aggy, I just think there's nothing here to be insulted over

[Deltabreedy]

I mean again, I asked numerous times for critique on my Patch case and nothing was compelling enough to shift me off of it. It's a game of persuasion as much as it is one of deception, and neither of us were persuasive enough to force a lim on our read. Frankly I think the fact that you're trying to blame me when you did the exact same is the 'insulting' bit, Catboi, and it detracts from the pretty great job AV, Dion(pre-replacement) and Python did.

[Deltabreedy]

There's ways and means of giving critique and expressing frustration post-game and I just don't think that's it to be honest.