Newbie 2113 - Shea it ain't So! | Game Over!

[KawaiiKame]

Take a second and think what might have happened in the last game that has encouraged me to make posts like that

Besides, my opinion on RVS hasn't changed. I have said as much in this thread already (can't find the post but it is there).

I remember well what happened but I still don't see why would you change your game then. You received heat especially from one player, you defended yourself well which gave you a good amount of cred (imo) and at the end of the day the player that tunnelled on you was voted out by the rest. A loss from the point of view of the game because in the end it was town vs town but I think you can see it as a validation of your gameplay.
So what should I get here? You didn't really think what you expressed on those initial posts?
Also I feel that in this game you have been trying to move the conversation away from you by just trying to push other players, which I also don't think you did on the previous game. Do you agree with this? And if so, was that also an concious attempt?

But I want to stress that his is not about your early game RVS but the fact that I see a very different way of playing than when I saw you playing as town

Why the sole focus in how dio changed his playstyle? A change of playstyle is not indicative of a change of alignment, different game different way to play, it's not productive to hold a player to their meta unless it's so fundamentally different between them

[KawaiiKame]

Take a second and think what might have happened in the last game that has encouraged me to make posts like that

Besides, my opinion on RVS hasn't changed. I have said as much in this thread already (can't find the post but it is there).

I remember well what happened but I still don't see why would you change your game then. You received heat especially from one player, you defended yourself well which gave you a good amount of cred (imo) and at the end of the day the player that tunnelled on you was voted out by the rest. A loss from the point of view of the game because in the end it was town vs town but I think you can see it as a validation of your gameplay.
So what should I get here? You didn't really think what you expressed on those initial posts?
Also I feel that in this game you have been trying to move the conversation away from you by just trying to push other players, which I also don't think you did on the previous game. Do you agree with this? And if so, was that also an concious attempt?

But I want to stress that his is not about your early game RVS but the fact that I see a very different way of playing than when I saw you playing as town

Why the sole focus in how dio changed his playstyle? A change of playstyle is not indicative of a change of alignment, different game different way to play, it's not productive to hold a player to their meta unless it's so fundamentally different between games

EBWO2P

[KawaiiKame]

Kawaii I think had a little (shallow) depth to their thought that was hard to see and normally when you are fakesolving you want people to see your solving.

How do I deepen the depth of my thought?
In confusion with me being #2 town yet potentially fakesolving

[KawaiiKame]

Wake up babe, new page dropped

[KawaiiKame]

Kawaii I think had a little (shallow) depth to their thought that was hard to see and normally when you are fakesolving you want people to see your solving.

How do I deepen the depth of my thought?
In confusion with me being #2 town yet potentially fakesolving FYP0V

EBWO2P

[KawaiiKame]

Empath is on the upswing in feeling town to me, shifting away the dio tunnel, focusing in on patch/beowulf/fruitive
Logically though it's hard to dismiss how calculated this all feels, Empath goes all in on dio (potential bussing gambit) thunderdoming dio only to back away when a vote push on patch builds, switching between them and dio finally landing on patch, even not accepting my dio vote deal to unvote empath/patch, unvoting patch in the night to wait on bewolkt, then voting back patch when bewolkt defends them, simultaneously moving away the emp + dio votes to the patch vote with fruitive + bewolkt

It's potentially feign an all in gambit against dio w/ thunderdoming, switching between dio/patches, unvoting patches, waiting on the new slots, vote patch, gun in on the new slots, achieving dio + emp heat being taken off while scapegoating patches and lining up votes on bewolkt/fruitive

[KawaiiKame]

TBH you're influenced really easily. You shouldn't sheep people you SR even if they make a compelling case. It can get rather ugly from experience.

Being influenced by compelling logic is a fatal flaw I have, if someone's logic is sound I play into it, just because someone reads scum to me doesn't mean I dismiss their logic, anyone's logic can be good and should be used
I am heavily guilty of sheeping b4 but Idk if this is a complete sheep, I made note of the anticipated defense painting a bleak pic of bewolkt but the meta focus on dio is why I fos them

[KawaiiKame]

TBH you're influenced really easily. You shouldn't sheep people you SR even if they make a compelling case. It can get rather ugly from experience.

Being influenced by compelling logic is a fatal flaw I have, if someone's logic is sound I play into it, just because someone reads scum to me doesn't mean I dismiss their logic, anyone's logic can be good and should be used
I am heavily guilty of sheeping b4 but Idk if this is a complete sheep, I made note of the anticipated defense painting a bleak pic of bewolkt but the meta focus on dio is why I fos them

[KawaiiKame]

I Was saying there was a little hidden depth to your thought and if you're fakesolving you're going to want people to see your solving. You should only be a townlean probably actually.

Makes sense, I took this in a negative light, though I had a feeling you meant I have slight depth, who's the #2 town in your eyes now?

[KawaiiKame]

TBH you're influenced really easily. You shouldn't sheep people you SR even if they make a compelling case. It can get rather ugly from experience.

Thank you though, I will keep this in mind

[KawaiiKame]

VoteCount 1.9

patchwork [ 4 ]

BluebloodedToffee, furtiveglance, dionysus, empathice

If patchwork flips town I feel there there is at least one wolf here

Alternate theory: Wolves split between voting/not voting Patch, one wolf in each voting base/camp, town thought is divided between seeing patch as wolf/inno so this divide is easy to slip into/exploit, though the wolves is potentially in the patch vote, might be dio/emp only feigning an all in gambit only to move united against patch, the scapegoat vote

If the alternate theory exists it can be bewolkt/fruitive, seeing town being divided by the patch vote fruitive would go in defending patch while fruitive would be against patch while not voting patch, instead focusing in on dio

I realize now patch/bewolkt is most likely if bewolkt is wolf as Empath stated, wolves would benefit in hammering patch in this if patch is not a wolf

[KawaiiKame]

I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth. I engaged in good faith.

Yes because I'm town and I think there is scum in patches/emp/kawaii. I don't see why this would be suspicious? The objective of the game is generally to move heat from you onto players you think are scum. Besides the push on me is based on nonsense imo.

I didn't say you said it. I asked a question. I wanted to know to which extent that was influencing your game.

And the suspicious part comes from the fact that from my view you didn't act this way in the other way, and not only on the rvs.

But I will drop it for now because it might be true that I am getting fixated in that and it's not fair to the others that weren't there. I will give it a vote of confidence but I'm not fully convinced

It isn't, you have a readlist informed by this game alone?

[KawaiiKame]

I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth. I engaged in good faith.

Yes because I'm town and I think there is scum in patches/emp/kawaii. I don't see why this would be suspicious? The objective of the game is generally to move heat from you onto players you think are scum. Besides the push on me is based on nonsense imo.

I didn't say you said it. I asked a question. I wanted to know to which extent that was influencing your game.

And the suspicious part comes from the fact that from my view you didn't act this way in the other way, and not only on the rvs.

But I will drop it for now because it might be true that I am getting fixated in that and it's not fair to the others that weren't there. I will give it a vote of confidence but I'm not fully convinced

It isn't, you have a readlist informed by this game alone?

Thank you with backing away dio's meta btw

[KawaiiKame]

Still you although Dion is just below you.

Why the change of mind of dio being wolf w/ patch to being #3 in town?

[KawaiiKame]

dio made that post stating that he changed his style and then I replied to it to get more info on that, I didn't "continue to hound". It's perfectly reasonable in the same way it's perfectly reasonable for me to notice it and question its reasons

Questioning is not inherently hounding, I question a lot too so I see your perspective in continuing to question, I thought this was set up to aggressively pursue dio again since that's what I've been seeing all game, I falsely assumed you'd continue the aggression against dio, it was endless until it ended with the patch vote gaining steam, blinded by bias with previous patterns of behavior

I find them very different. But you're right that is not productive in general for others so I'm taking a step back on this for now

Thank you with seeing this in my view, how do you want to pursue this day? Hopefully you have a good foundation to deeply analyze

[KawaiiKame]

Because my case on them doesn't work and outside of that they're townish. Also I don't have many towns ATM.

How doesn't it work? I must've missed the hole in your logic thing, lemme reread. Do you not have many town since you see many slots as null/scum? What causes you to think someone is town? Like how do you determine who is town?

[KawaiiKame]

Scum
Empathice
dio

Your thinking semi aligns with mine, I've been thinking it's between Empathice/dio a long time, even that it's both of them, why do you think scum is among them?

[KawaiiKame]

patchwork

- I very much believe their 264 comes from town.

I would be very surprised if they are scum.

Having said that, they are indeed not contributing and I understand other's frustration with that

you have a readlist informed by this game alone?

As of now:
Town
Black
skitter
furtive

Unsure
Kawaii

patch

Could go either way and I'm not sure if I will get any more info
bbt

Scum
Empathice
dio

Not meaning that I think the scumteam is dio/empa because I rn I don't see them together. But I think there's scum between them

Does not compute.

EBWOP

Logical contradiction detected, mind explaining why bewolkt?

[KawaiiKame]

"Dion created a SR on a slot only after he was questioned about his vote on said slot. This means he didn't care about whether or not he was scumreading scum.

You saying he made up a sr on herata on the spot only after I questioned him about the vote? That is what happened, you saying not caring about scumreading scum is an assumption?

[KawaiiKame]

Because my case on them doesn't work and outside of that they're townish. Also I don't have many towns ATM.

How doesn't it work? I must've missed the hole in your logic thing, lemme reread. Do you not have many town since you see many slots as null/scum? What causes you to think someone is town? Like how do you determine who is town?

I Didn't bother explaining that yet but "Dion created a SR on a slot only after he was questioned about his vote on said slot. This means he didn't care about whether or not he was scumreading scum." is slightly presumptuous.

Why did it take you...this long...to realize this...?
Least you see why the logic is flawed now

[KawaiiKame]

Also what does EBWO2P and EBWOP mean?

EBWOP: Edit By Way Of (Double) Post

[KawaiiKame]

You're quoting a post in which I'm commenting on page 11 of the game as I was reading it. We're now on page 50. In the meantime I've become more confident about townreading other players. I still find their way of posting genuine and I think it comes from town but I also agree with others that he's not doing the best to collaborate which still gives me pause

Least I'm above patch, that's a win, what do you think of the patch push?

[KawaiiKame]

Town
Black
skitter
furtive

Why skitter/furtive? I see them thinking alike so it makes sense if it aligns with your own town thinking, I have the same town read on skitter as you, I'm uncertain on furtive though

[KawaiiKame]

Town
Black
skitter
furtive

Why skitter/furtive? I see them thinking alike so it makes sense if it aligns with your own town thinking, I have the same town read on skitter as you, I'm uncertain on furtive though

I don't think like skitter but I do see her thinking as town

[KawaiiKame]

Town
Black
skitter
furtive

Why skitter/furtive? I see them thinking alike so it makes sense if it aligns with your own town thinking, I have the same town read on skitter as you, I'm uncertain on furtive though

I don't think like skitter but I do see her thinking as town

[KawaiiKame]

Holy shit, a 43 page D1 in a Newbie.

I don't want to read the last 15 pages or so...someone give me a quick run down?

Read and give reads, why have you become a ghost?

[KawaiiKame]

D1 has passed it's sell by date. Time to move forward.

Time to move D1 forward, you can help by continuing to give your insight

[KawaiiKame]

Why are you uncertain on furtive?

furtive's thinking mirrors skitter's thinking slightly too much

[KawaiiKame]

Mostly this and I feel their style of posting is +town

I'm with you on the playstyle, it's defensive yet offensive at the same time, I like it

[KawaiiKame]

Mostly this and I feel their style of posting is +town

I'm with you on the playstyle, it's defensive yet offensive at the same time, I like it

I like her committing against dio yet being willing to pursue separate slots

[KawaiiKame]

My preferred candidate is patchwork, my second is Dionysus.

As I said to Empathice, I'm willing to pursue the Dionysus vote, if patchwork is unvoted I will unvote Empathice, us both voting Dionysus

May you please say why you want to vote Dionysus as #2?

[KawaiiKame]

I'm not a fan of it because it'd like to push other people honestly

Who do you want to push? I imagine dio/emp

[KawaiiKame]

Can we talk seriously about today's elimination?

My preferred candidate is patchwork, my second is Dionysus.

empath/dio to me

[KawaiiKame]

I'm not a fan of it because it'd like to push other people honestly

Who do you want to push? I imagine dio/emp

Yes with empa as my first choice and keeping in mind that I am very wary about bbt so why not VOTE: bbt

I hope this inspires bbt to wake up so you vote empa w/ me...

[KawaiiKame]

You specifically said you didn't want to eliminate Patch after you caught up. Meaning your read on Patch did not significantly change during catch-up. You specifically indicate the difference in pages as a reason for your read changing.

This is...true

[KawaiiKame]

I'm not a fan of it because it'd like to push other people honestly

Who do you want to push? I imagine dio/emp

Yes with empa as my first choice and keeping in mind that I am very wary about bbt so why not VOTE: bbt

Hoping this is a temp vote since the day is going down into night, I feel the focus needs to be elimination, ideally we both pursue empa in union, we have all of DP2 to pursue bbt

[KawaiiKame]

Can you scumcase me please?

It took you a long ass time to realize your own logic against dio is flawed, you spent so much time against pursuing dio only to realize the hole in your logic when patch is at e-I with the new slots flooding in, the timing is way too convenient in my eyes, looks like you feigned an all in gambit against dio only to back out at the best moment, I want to know what you made you realize the hole in your logic against dio being presumptive with the herata vote, like you build a whole ass case against dio holding him to this one mistake most of the game only to be like, (my logic) "is slightly presumptuous" in #1226

You abandoning your foundational case against dio, one that you've spent Idek how long pursuing, because you find it

slightly

presumptuous?

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: herta

Why you vote herta?

their entrance is scummy

Herta didn't even go into the game at the point you voted them...

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[viewtopic.php?p=13660000#p13660000][/20]

^ I've fos dio since this, this set off the chain reaction of dio being pursued most of the game by empath, I was the catalyst, skitter was the igniter, empath was the pursuer, initially I thought skitter/dio dialogue was town vs. mafia/mafia vs. town based on feeling, eventually being dissuaded that feeling alone is sufficient enough to believe dio is mafia though the relentless pursuit on dio kept him fos in the back of my mind while simultaneously feeling bad 4 dio, being the "main character" of the DP, I didn't find it productive to town to be hyperfocused on dio...now dio is making patch the "main character", pursuing patch relentlessly like empath did to dio, saying patch contributes nothing in 46 pages of dp...dio was pursued because of the way he plays, now dio is pursuing patch because of the way they play, I feel dio would be empathetic to patch no, 0, doesn't make sense to me

[KawaiiKame]

why dio for you?
Sorry if you have already said

^ The above is why Dio to me

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: herta

Why you vote herta?

their entrance is scummy

Herta didn't even go into the game at the point you voted them...

[viewtopic.php?p=13659752#p13659752][/14]
[viewtopic.php?p=13660000#p13660000][/20]

^ I've fos dio since this, this set off the chain reaction of dio being pursued most of the game by empath, I was the catalyst, skitter was the igniter, empath was the pursuer, initially I thought skitter/dio dialogue was town vs. mafia/mafia vs. town based on feeling, eventually being dissuaded that feeling alone is sufficient enough to believe dio is mafia though the relentless pursuit on dio kept him fos in the back of my mind while simultaneously feeling bad 4 dio, being the "main character" of the DP, I didn't find it productive to town to be hyperfocused on dio...now dio is making patch the "main character", pursuing patch relentlessly like empath did to dio, saying patch contributes nothing in 46 pages of dp...dio was pursued because of the way he plays, now dio is pursuing patch because of the way they play, I feel dio would be empathetic to patch no, 0, doesn't make sense to me

It's let you experience what I experienced in place of let me stop you experiencing what I experienced, victim - bully mindset in place of an empathetic mindset

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: herta

Why you vote herta?

their entrance is scummy

Herta didn't even go into the game at the point you voted them...

[viewtopic.php?p=13659752#p13659752][/14]
[viewtopic.php?p=13660000#p13660000][/20]

^ I've fos dio since this, this set off the chain reaction of dio being pursued most of the game by empath, I was the catalyst, skitter was the igniter, empath was the pursuer, initially I thought skitter/dio dialogue was town vs. mafia/mafia vs. town based on feeling, eventually being dissuaded that feeling alone is sufficient enough to believe dio is mafia though the relentless pursuit on dio kept him fos in the back of my mind while simultaneously feeling bad 4 dio, being the "main character" of the DP, I didn't find it productive to town to be hyperfocused on dio...now dio is making patch the "main character", pursuing patch relentlessly like empath did to dio, saying patch contributes nothing in 46 pages of dp...dio was pursued because of the way he plays, now dio is pursuing patch because of the way they play, I feel dio would be empathetic to patch no, 0, doesn't make sense to me

It's let you experience what I experienced in place of let me stop you experiencing what I experienced, victim - bully mindset in place of an empathetic mindset

I feel town will have an empathetic mindset...

[KawaiiKame]

I feel town will have an empathetic mindset...

Why would they have an empathetic mindset when they are confirmed town to themselves and you are not confirmed town to them?

Excellent point

[KawaiiKame]

I feel town will have an empathetic mindset...

Why would they have an empathetic mindset when they are confirmed town to themselves and you are not confirmed town to them?

Also the correct word here is sympathetic I believe.

Empathy is when you feel someone's pain, sympathy is when you feel bad on someone else's behalf, I was sympathetic to dio/patches, I thought/felt dio'd be empathetic to patch, not so merciless, defensive at least, maybe I'm only thinking how'd I feel

[KawaiiKame]

The mafia are the victims in this game.

dio/patches had/have victim mindsets...

[KawaiiKame]

also this is an... extreme and quite ungenerous interpretation.

Maybe I'm going too far with saying you have a victim-bully mindset, you haven't been kind to patches tho, maybe it's you being real

[KawaiiKame]

ok but i've been pretty brash the entire game
what makes dion's posts rude while mine arent
actually he did try to tell me i wasnt burnt out earlier so i can see that
but that was a one time thing at least + not a thing you can sr someone for

Tbf you have, I've forgotten you being aggro like when you said it was dumb of dio to townread you in the opening

[KawaiiKame]

What is unkind about pushing someone I think is scum? I mean I don't think patches has been especially kind to anyone tbf. I think they've been quite rude most of the game, actually! So not sure why I'm being singled out here.

Could be that I just think they're scum, maybe?

Fair is fair, patches has acted quite aggro/potentially scummy in this game, you're justified in pursuing patches, I apologize with accusing you of a bully mindset, I found saying patches contributed nothing in 46 pages to be mean but I see why you see it as true

[KawaiiKame]

Why are you uncertain on furtive?

furtive's thinking mirrors skitter's thinking slightly too much

i dont think so
iirc skitter trsme and furtive doesnt
and even if they have the same reads it's not inherently a bad thing unless the content is blatantly recycled from each other

Emp is right, furitive mirrors Emp, not skittle

[KawaiiKame]

also this is an... extreme and quite ungenerous interpretation.

Maybe I'm going too far with saying you have a victim-bully mindset, you haven't been kind to patches tho, maybe it's you being real

What is unkind about pushing someone I think is scum? I mean I don't think patches has been especially kind to anyone tbf. I think they've been quite rude most of the game, actually! So not sure why I'm being singled out here.

Could be that I just think they're scum, maybe?

I saw patches as being treated unfairly but all is fair when you're pursuing scum, what I said was uncalled for, maybe they did have it coming to them with how they acted b4

[KawaiiKame]

I'm not a fan of it because it'd like to push other people honestly

Who do you want to push? I imagine dio/emp

Yes with empa as my first choice and keeping in mind that I am very wary about bbt so why not VOTE: bbt

is this a vote on activity?

I hope so, looks like it

[KawaiiKame]

The mafia are the victims in this game.

dio/patches had/have victim mindsets...

I Should probably look at Dion again but my 0% tunnel accuracy is foreboding.

Low odds, Idk how much stake you should put into %s, but since you looking into Dion again maybe I should too

[KawaiiKame]

Why? You know you can push whoever you like and don't need to be guided by other players, right?

I do, thought it was time to rethink my position of you as potential wolf, but you right, I am too guided by other players

[KawaiiKame]

Why? You know you can push whoever you like and don't need to be guided by other players, right?

I do, thought it was time to rethink my position of you as potential wolf, but you right, I am too guided by other players

I need to forge my own path

[KawaiiKame]

dio/patches had/have victim mindsets...

i don tthink either of us did actually

Your long posts say otherwise...
You want to scumhunt?
Idk if you saw my scumhunting post

[KawaiiKame]

Why don't you reconsider patches

I am, they slipping into scum, though I don't want to hammer a potential scapegoat

[KawaiiKame]

Why don't you reconsider patches

I am, they slipping into scum, though I don't want to hammer a potential scapegoat

I don't want this day to end... yet

[KawaiiKame]

Why don't you reconsider patches

Why do you feel patches is scum?

[KawaiiKame]

Why are u so convinced they're scum again?

You have updated reads skitter?

[KawaiiKame]

OK I am gonna potentially he a bit of a hypocrite, but as patches' other game has just ended we can now acknowledge it. In 2112 patches was town and their ISO is here: viewtopic.php?t=90446&user_select%5B%5D=36976

They are clearly trying to solve the game from the beginning in a way that they just haven't in this game yet and it is page 52. Like this is not a question of playstyle at all. Their style is very similar in both games. But in one they are hunting scum and in this one they're not.

0nly skimming they pushing/being aggro as town when in this game they heavily defensive, I see what you mean, feels opposite

[KawaiiKame]

Why don't you reconsider patches

Why do you feel patches is scum?

are you seriously asking me this

No, I know why, I will IS0 you

[KawaiiKame]

OK I am gonna potentially he a bit of a hypocrite, but as patches' other game has just ended we can now acknowledge it. In 2112 patches was town and their ISO is here: viewtopic.php?t=90446&user_select%5B%5D=36976

They are clearly trying to solve the game from the beginning in a way that they just haven't in this game yet and it is page 52. Like this is not a question of playstyle at all. Their style is very similar in both games. But in one they are hunting scum and in this one they're not.

0nly skimming they pushing/being aggro as town when in this game they heavily defensive, I see what you mean, feels opposite

Haven't read fully myself yet either lol (literally just noticed the game was over when I made my post) but they did more to hunt scum in their first 20 or so posts than they've done in nearly 250 here.

I was looking at you to post something like this when asking why b4, thank you, I will read this in depth but Ik it's opposite even now

And yeah they pursue scum-hunting straight up out the gate instead of dancing being avoidant, I dislike holding players to their meta but this is so fundamentally different it's hard not to see how town patches plays vs. how in game patches plays

[KawaiiKame]

Probably bewolkt/skitter for their partner.

You think skitter is wolf now? Why?

[KawaiiKame]

Probably bewolkt/skitter for their partner.

You think skitter is wolf now? Why?

Genuinely surprised with the skitter scum-read

[KawaiiKame]

though i still stand by my view of analysis > information. basically what i was saying is that i wasn't going to post a readlist yet because i wanted to analysis of every player, but i didn't have the time to iso every player and do it in-depth. that's how the push on me started.

I will give you time to IS0 every player in-depth in analysis, please do this

[KawaiiKame]

we have three days and i have no motivation for anything

three days is plenty of time to analyze in-depth, what will motivate you?

[KawaiiKame]

we have three days and i have no motivation for anything, what makes you think it would be physically be possible for me to do that
like i might be able to complete the players who have posted more sparsely but what about the slots that are actually controversial

If you not having fun you can /out and someone else can /in this slot

[KawaiiKame]

I can't really do more than skim the last several pages atm but I will admit that Empath's content has looked better now that he's using more words and explaining his progressions. Still my top Sr I think but at this point it's for a lack of other good srs

I'm going to try to read the last several pages tomorrow and get a better feel for the other options before getting too close to the deadline

Yee I'm with you on empath upping in being town, sadly empath stays as top wolf to me like you

[KawaiiKame]

ill try but there's no guarantee ill get more than two players done

Ty, even if it's only one contro player that will help immensely

[KawaiiKame]

also kawaii what is it with you and buddying black lol, i can't tell if you're genuinely agreeing with her or if you're just trying to pocket her...

I stated b4 that empath is my top mafia and they on the upswing as town...

[KawaiiKame]

we have three days and i have no motivation for anything, what makes you think it would be physically be possible for me to do that
like i might be able to complete the players who have posted more sparsely but what about the slots that are actually controversial

If you not having fun you can /out and someone else can /in this slot

I think this is technically against the rules

Hopefully I get to stay in the game

[KawaiiKame]

Can i get a tldr of the last 15 pages?

Since page 40?

[KawaiiKame]

Can i get a tldr of the last 15 pages?

It's basically been the patch show up until this point, the 2nd patch push is deadlocked and we shifting focus back to dio/emp again
Patch dropped a big analysis on BBT's IS0

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

DO NOT VOTE DION.

0kay, fruitive didn't even agree to my deal

[KawaiiKame]

Dionysus is individually scummy

Why is Dio individually scummy?

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

I'm going to IS0 Empath to see if I see Empath in a new light

[KawaiiKame]

Creating a reason for voting someone after being questioned about your vote. If you were town and actually hunting, you would not presuppose that something about Herta is scummy when questioned.

There would be a chance that you conflated a read on Herta with your RVS vote, however that is not what you said. You said you looked for a read on them after you were questioned.

I Don't believe TWTBAW (Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf) applies in this case either IMO.

This is Empath's foundational case, so long as Empath believes in this foundation this case needs to be pursued

[/quote]

Except in post #65 you say that you formed your read on Herta only when questioned on your vote. Giving your existing read on Herta when question about a RVS vote is certainly believable, but I can't see you, as town, forcing a scum read on Herta when questioned about your RVS vote.

Extending the case

Evidence? All I have is my case. Although if you want to help flip him be my guest.

I Didn't notice any vibes myself.

Committing to the case in the opening is town ai

My current is like dio + herta/hadrian

Herta is absolutely never aligned with Dion. They would be more aware of their partner and their interactions with their partner. It could have been intentional distancing but I probably wouldn't buy into that even at f3 so good for them if it is.

In isolation in the case building, though it does eliminate a possible wolf/wolf, showing empath is thinking about this game systematically

Same question to you, empathice. Your scum case against me seems entirely down to a dumb ill-thought mistake during rvs. Or is there more?

How about this then-

Black, empathice, patchwork and probably bbt are town
Dio is scum
And a partner in the remainder imo

This ia my present view of the game

Why are you so sure of me?

Why me = Fry me.

You've already heard our cases. Insinuating that they are weak without a reasoning is a bad idea. Especially since scum are known to almost always care much more than town about people's reads on them.

Continuing to link the case to being why Empath believes dio is scum

Insinuating that they are weak without a reasoning is a bad idea.

actually, shouldn't you back up your claims with evidence? obviously dion has bad vibes (for me at least, might just be the instinctive OMGUS) but i don't think they've done anything explicitly scummy yet

Evidence? All I have is my case. Although if you want to help flip him be my guest.

I Didn't notice any vibes myself.

wait, where's the case?
to me the vibes feel a little off. like its been jumping around a lot for me, i dont' like how abrubt they are when it comes to swithcing around on things + never evidences his claims so its also like. a little annoying. so i read them as town first, then null, town who likes to tunnel, then maf, and then back to null (because i'm paranoid he's just tunneling and it's not actually ai)

#156 #182 is the majority of it I think.

Although if you want to help flip him be my guest.

also what does this mean

Help eliminate him so we can check his alignment. :p

Cites the case twice, advancing the thesis that the case needs to pursued

Black wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:11 pm

The case on Dio has more holes than Swiss cheese. Empathice I don't think you are as sure about Dio's alignment as you act like you are and I'm having a hard time believing someone with a town perspective would tunnel this hard on such weak evidence


Why me = Fry me is a strong tell if you don't like my main case.

Continues to pursue the case

The one you are voting him for?

Right. Newbie. Except a newbie would be the last person to create a read on demand wouldn't they?

Dio was asked about his read and he gave it. To me it looks like he thought herta's entrance was scummy, so he accidently attributed his vote to that, not remembering that he joke voted before herta's entrance. It was obviously a quick response because kawaii asked him why he voted in 37 and he responds in 38 less than a minute later. Herta's entrance in 20 was probably fresh on his mind. Seems like a pretty newbie mistake to me

He's telling people what things like RVS and FOS are so I don't think he's totally new.

I agree that he's not totally new, but your link didn't say "don't use this logic if they are totally new", it said don't use it if they are inexperienced. Do you think asking to explain reads is alignment indicative?

Also what is your mafia experience?

I Discussed that angle already. Read #65 with what you just said in mind and you will understand my case.

Continuously cites/pursues the case

Phase II:

Yes it is

I think with the exception of one post, maybe two I'd have to check, all their posts have been about me and the push has been quite aggressive. The closest they've ever come to entertaining someone else was a fluff vote on you which was immediately retracted (no commentary from you tho on what the purpose of it was tho. Weird). But since then: Dio Dio Dio Dio. No focus elsewhere. Not interested in thinking they might be wrong. Dio Dio Dio Dio.

How is that town behaviour? Some verbose way of saying "because I agree with them" is not an acceptable answer to this question either. Tell me why they are town

Reading you correctly doesn't make me win. Eliminating you makes me win.

This is NAI, all alignments need to eliminate to win, the aggression feels/reads town though

Yes it is

I think with the exception of one post, maybe two I'd have to check, all their posts have been about me and the push has been quite aggressive. The closest they've ever come to entertaining someone else was a fluff vote on you which was immediately retracted (no commentary from you tho on what the purpose of it was tho. Weird). But since then: Dio Dio Dio Dio. No focus elsewhere. Not interested in thinking they might be wrong. Dio Dio Dio Dio.

How is that town behaviour? Some verbose way of saying "because I agree with them" is not an acceptable answer to this question either. Tell me why they are town

Reading you correctly doesn't make me win. Eliminating you makes me win.

eliminating me will only help you win if you're scum. So on that I guess you're right: getting rid of me will make you win.

Would you like to thunderdome? One of us gets eliminated today and if they flip town we eliminate the other tomorrow.

This is the turning point, the point where Empath crosses the Rubicon officially going into Phase II of play, looking back this is a natural extension of pursuing the case, upping the stakes to the next level in a I v I, logically this is a pursuer pursuing the case to its natural end, an all out vote, equivalent to a prosecutor taking his case against the defense to court

Empath fulfilled the need to pursue the foundational case against dio until ceasing to believe in the case

Still you although Dion is just below you.

Why the change of mind of dio being wolf w/ patch to being #3 in town?

Because my case on them doesn't work and outside of that they're townish. Also I don't have many towns ATM.

Because my case on them doesn't work and outside of that they're townish. Also I don't have many towns ATM.

How doesn't it work? I must've missed the hole in your logic thing, lemme reread. Do you not have many town since you see many slots as null/scum? What causes you to think someone is town? Like how do you determine who is town?

I Didn't bother explaining that yet but "Dion created a SR on a slot only after he was questioned about his vote on said slot. This means he didn't care about whether or not he was scumreading scum." is slightly presumptuous.

This realization ends the need of Empath to pursue the foundational case against dio

VOTE: Dionysus

I'm honor bound to unvote Emp/vote Dio now, lemme wait on the official vote b4 voting
UNVOTE: Empathice

DO NOT VOTE DION.

This signifies the logical conclusion/endgame of realizing the foundational case against dio is logically unsound

In Closing:
Empath pursued the foundational case against dio like they needed to do, only ceasing to pursue the case against dio when finding the case against dio logically unsound, once the case lost logical sense in empath's eyes he stopped pursuing dio, defending him
Systemically pursuing a case to its logical end and concluding a case is illogical following the above ^ is town ai

[KawaiiKame]

The only things I dislike with empath is attempting to out the masons + how long it took empath to realize,

"Dion created a SR on a slot only after he was questioned about his vote on said slot. This means he didn't care about whether or not he was scumreading scum." is slightly presumptuous.

I do like Empath realized this, happy I realize the case, I do not feel this is a gambit in this point, I failed to realize the case

[KawaiiKame]

My view on Empath's fundamentally changed with the IS0

[KawaiiKame]

I may sleep soon, hopefully I give reads b4 falling asleep

[KawaiiKame]

BTW I was wrong my case doesn't have a hole. I Expressed my case just before I flipped around in a way that assumed that they are not careless town, which made me think my case had a hole, but my case was built off the sole idea that a town would not be so careless so my case is sound.

Creating a reason for voting someone after being questioned about your vote. If you were town and actually hunting, you would not presuppose that something about Herta is scummy when questioned.

Except in post #65 you say that you formed your read on Herta only when questioned on your vote. Giving your existing read on Herta when question about a RVS vote is certainly believable, but I can't see you, as town,

forcing

a scum read on Herta when questioned about your RVS vote.

The case is built on dio presupposing Herta is scummy when questioned/forcing a scum read on Herta when questioned, is the carelessness implied? It's not mentioned in the case itself and ideas besides carelessness exist in it

[KawaiiKame]

What e-x is patch at?

[KawaiiKame]

I'm willing to hammer patch at this point, delaying the game isn't good to game health

[KawaiiKame]

I'm willing to hammer patch at this point, delaying the game isn't good to game health

Do what you have to do ig. Maybe I can get caught up overnight

Do you want to catch up in the day/in the night?

[KawaiiKame]

rip
bye guys, sorry for sucking this game

You good, hope to see you again

[KawaiiKame]

Everyone thinks we should end the day now but me so if you want to hammer then go for it

Anyone you want to pursue b4 we hammer? No one but us has the will to continue, I don't want to fall into group think but it's close to unanimous

[KawaiiKame]

I would also not have a problem going on. I understand that I've come in later so it's not the same and I understand it (and also I'm not happy with this lim)

A minority voice, who do you want to pursue? bbt? Idk if that's even viable, if you wanted to push a lim you needed to push empath w/ me b4 my IS0

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: Empathice

We can definitely do this instead of patch

Read Empathice's IS0, give me a detailed analysis on it, I want to see what you think of Empath's case/the pursuit of the case

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: Empathice

We can definitely do this instead of patch

Read Empathice's IS0, give me a detailed analysis on it, I want to see what you think of Empath's case/the pursuit of the case

IM0 I feel Empathice's case/pursuit of the case is town but I want to see what you think, feel I have an epiphany reading it

[KawaiiKame]

Two wagons with claims is pro-town IMO.

The problem is that it's just way too late in the Day to do that. Had we pushed a wagon decently around page 20, when I suggested it, we would have had time to then reevaluate and create more information with a separate wagon if we felt like that's what was needed.

All we have managed to do so far is be split among a few different wagons without any actually being pushed to where it will be useful to look back on later in the game.

We have enough time to push either wagon

[KawaiiKame]

Furitive if this is town i'm pushing you tomorrow

^ I don't like furitive's bloodlust when I'm talking w/ Black...

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: Empathice

We can definitely do this instead of patch

Read Empathice's IS0, give me a detailed analysis on it, I want to see what you think of Empath's case/the pursuit of the case

I'm sorry kawaii I'm doing things all day today and can't really do that on mobile. If day lasts til tomorrow (Monday) I can do this but I doubt it will with all the people itching to end it now

I'm willing to wait then, 2 days left, we have time in on Monday, hopefully you do all the things you need to done

[KawaiiKame]

I feel like we should be entering yhe 'wrap it up phase' but that doesn't mean we need to end the day in the next 5 min

^

My hammer is on standby, waiting on Empath's IS0 analysis, if this was the last day I'd hammer in a heartbeat

[KawaiiKame]

Yeah Kawaii, I didn't make myself very clear there at all.

I shouldn't have said time because I don't mean time, I meant more in terms of the Day having dragged on for too long already and us already being at 61 pages which is absolutely insane. It's more like a large than a micro game.

Yes, I get the feeling, you saying the day is in its natural end, I hate to be the one who delays the game and I feel you, it might be best to end the day and move on, but I really want the empath IS0 analysis so I'm willing to extend the day's life time

[KawaiiKame]

@Kawaii - I'm not sure we're convincing anyone that isn't voting for Emp to vote for him tbh. Some of these people don't even see the Emp slot the same way we do and the fact that Emp has earned some town points recently in my eyes doesn't make me feel as confident about him as I used to. Don't feel like you have to wait around on me if you think hammering is a decent option here

Maybe, maybe not, I feel it's worth it to wait until Monday to see the IS0 analysis, I am tempted to hammer tho

[KawaiiKame]

@Kawaii - I'm not sure we're convincing anyone that isn't voting for Emp to vote for him tbh. Some of these people don't even see the Emp slot the same way we do and the fact that Emp has earned some town points recently in my eyes doesn't make me feel as confident about him as I used to. Don't feel like you have to wait around on me if you think hammering is a decent option here

I don't feel confident too, empath is town to me at this point reading the IS0, I want to know if I have holes in my analysis to see if Empath is in fact scum like I initially thought

[KawaiiKame]

IM0 I feel Empathice's case/pursuit of the case is town but I want to see what you think, feel I have an epiphany reading it

I have read your posts on it and I understand from where you are coming from. But I also believe it is possible they took Dio's thing at the beginning and just went with it for all game and didn't really try much to challenge it. Then closer to the end of the day they sort of flip saying they were wrong (maybe anticipating a possible town!Dio flip).
All of this could be town but if you add the Mason stuff plus the way they jumped into Patch's wagon... I don't trust them very much

Empath concludes that the case is in fact right and saying it was wrong is an error, meaning dio = not town if the case is followed to its logical end

[KawaiiKame]

@Kawaii - I'm not sure we're convincing anyone that isn't voting for Emp to vote for him tbh. Some of these people don't even see the Emp slot the same way we do and the fact that Emp has earned some town points recently in my eyes doesn't make me feel as confident about him as I used to. Don't feel like you have to wait around on me if you think hammering is a decent option here

They think I'm townish I think. They just want to give you time.

^

[KawaiiKame]

IM0 I feel Empathice's case/pursuit of the case is town but I want to see what you think, feel I have an epiphany reading it

I have read your posts on it and I understand from where you are coming from. But I also believe it is possible they took Dio's thing at the beginning and just went with it for all game and didn't really try much to challenge it. Then closer to the end of the day they sort of flip saying they were wrong (maybe anticipating a possible town!Dio flip).
All of this could be town but if you add the Mason stuff plus the way they jumped into Patch's wagon... I don't trust them very much

I SR Patch since the beginning and moved them to town only for a short while.

Patch is def viable as scum, but that's the consensus
Idk if the gg guys was town giving up/scum giving up, feels NAI

[KawaiiKame]

It isn't on them, i meant we shouldnt like wait for significant further analysis

I'm not confident enuf to hammer just now but if nobody does like by this evening i will

You okay to wait until Monday?

[KawaiiKame]

It isn't on them, i meant we shouldnt like wait for significant further analysis

I'm not confident enuf to hammer just now but if nobody does like by this evening i will

You okay to wait until Monday?

You

ARE

going to die tonight. It's optimal to claim if you are masons with Dion right now because Dion's absorbing the attention of the thread.
[/quote]

^

This

is why I want to wait on Black's Monday IS0 analysis, Black is consensus town so Monday may be the last time she gets to do this

[KawaiiKame]

IM0 I feel Empathice's case/pursuit of the case is town but I want to see what you think, feel I have an epiphany reading it

I have read your posts on it and I understand from where you are coming from. But I also believe it is possible they took Dio's thing at the beginning and just went with it for all game and didn't really try much to challenge it. Then closer to the end of the day they sort of flip saying they were wrong (maybe anticipating a possible town!Dio flip).
All of this could be town but if you add the Mason stuff plus the way they jumped into Patch's wagon... I don't trust them very much

I SR Patch since the beginning and moved them to town only for a short while.

Patch is def viable as scum, but that's the consensus
Idk if the gg guys was town giving up/scum giving up, feels NAI

It's not giving up I don't think. It looks like ATE.

ATE? Why does it look like ATE? (Idk what ATE is)

[KawaiiKame]

It isn't on them, i meant we shouldnt like wait for significant further analysis

I'm not confident enuf to hammer just now but if nobody does like by this evening i will

You okay to wait until Monday?

You

ARE

going to die tonight. It's optimal to claim if you are masons with Dion right now because Dion's absorbing the attention of the thread.

^This is why I want to wait on Black's Monday IS0 analysis, Black is consensus town so Monday may be the last time she gets to do this

[/quote]

EBW0P

[KawaiiKame]

I'm ok waiting until black can wrap up whatever she wants to do, and then ending

Thank you : )

[KawaiiKame]

IM0 I feel Empathice's case/pursuit of the case is town but I want to see what you think, feel I have an epiphany reading it

I have read your posts on it and I understand from where you are coming from. But I also believe it is possible they took Dio's thing at the beginning and just went with it for all game and didn't really try much to challenge it. Then closer to the end of the day they sort of flip saying they were wrong (maybe anticipating a possible town!Dio flip).
All of this could be town but if you add the Mason stuff plus the way they jumped into Patch's wagon... I don't trust them very much

I SR Patch since the beginning and moved them to town only for a short while.

Patch is def viable as scum, but that's the consensus
Idk if the gg guys was town giving up/scum giving up, feels NAI

It's not giving up I don't think. It looks like ATE.

ATE? Why does it look like ATE? (Idk what ATE is)

A

ppeal

T

o

E

motion.

I feel patch does this a lot... anyone else you see using pathos a lot?

[KawaiiKame]

I feel very confident that black/kawaii are town
Empathice and bbt are probably town

Scum is in the remainder: furitive,patch, dio, and bewolkt

This solve is semi likely, most neutral on bbt tho

[KawaiiKame]

IM0 I feel Empathice's case/pursuit of the case is town but I want to see what you think, feel I have an epiphany reading it

I have read your posts on it and I understand from where you are coming from. But I also believe it is possible they took Dio's thing at the beginning and just went with it for all game and didn't really try much to challenge it. Then closer to the end of the day they sort of flip saying they were wrong (maybe anticipating a possible town!Dio flip).
All of this could be town but if you add the Mason stuff plus the way they jumped into Patch's wagon... I don't trust them very much

I SR Patch since the beginning and moved them to town only for a short while.

A while that ended why? What are were your reasons to start SR Patch again?

Have you read Empath's IS0?

[KawaiiKame]

IM0 I feel Empathice's case/pursuit of the case is town but I want to see what you think, feel I have an epiphany reading it

I have read your posts on it and I understand from where you are coming from. But I also believe it is possible they took Dio's thing at the beginning and just went with it for all game and didn't really try much to challenge it. Then closer to the end of the day they sort of flip saying they were wrong (maybe anticipating a possible town!Dio flip).
All of this could be town but if you add the Mason stuff plus the way they jumped into Patch's wagon... I don't trust them very much

I SR Patch since the beginning and moved them to town only for a short while.

A while that ended why? What are were your reasons to start SR Patch again?

Have you read Empath's IS0?

IK you read my analysis on Empath's IS0

[KawaiiKame]

IK you read my analysis on Empath's IS0

Yes I have as well, but I idn't get much else from it (apart from the thunderdome thing, which I had forgotten)

You willing to analyze anyone's IS0? Someone like dio?

[KawaiiKame]

IK you read my analysis on Empath's IS0

Yes I have as well, but I idn't get much else from it (apart from the thunderdome thing, which I had forgotten)

You willing to analyze anyone's IS0? Someone like dio?

Sure. You want me to do dio's?

Yes please, feel dio's IS0 has value

[KawaiiKame]

IK you read my analysis on Empath's IS0

Yes I have as well, but I idn't get much else from it (apart from the thunderdome thing, which I had forgotten)

You willing to analyze anyone's IS0? Someone like dio?

Sure. You want me to do dio's?

Yes please, feel dio's IS0 has value

Will do it later

Got you

[KawaiiKame]

Can someone hammer before I lose my mind

Hammer is happening Monday, why do you want to hammer so badly?

[KawaiiKame]

I just... Don't see the point in this? This ISO analysis can happen on day 2. It's unlikely to change anything today.

Assuming Black lives to day 2...

[KawaiiKame]

I just... Don't see the point in this? This ISO analysis can happen on day 2. It's unlikely to change anything today.

Why wait until day 2 when we can wait to Monday? Monday is close

[KawaiiKame]

Can someone hammer before I lose my mind

Hammer is happening Monday, why do you want to hammer so badly?

Because I need to know.

You will know Monday

[KawaiiKame]

suprised i'm not hammered yet but i just wanted to say that "gg" is absolutely not ate

Is it eat?

[KawaiiKame]

I ATE this game.

snaps fingers

Thanos...

[KawaiiKame]

Sad

[KawaiiKame]

And then after that you'll hammer

No one is bound to hammer

[KawaiiKame]

Empath finally admitting this is good. The tunneling really made me feel like Empath did not have the town's best interests in mind. I'm just not sure if this realization came about as a survival tactic to seem more townie or if it's a genuine thought

I feel it is a genuine thought, Empath pursued the case to its logical end, concluding that it's presumptive to believe Dion didn't care about scumreading scum, the pursuit/conclusion feels town to me, though Empath did negate this in #1532

Logically Empath is town, instinctively Empath is scum, emotionally I'm conflicted since I see Empath as sheep and Empath as wolf pursuing the same case, one as genuine scum-hunting, the 2nd as a long game gambit

[KawaiiKame]

Page 52 - still not understanding why everyone is SRing patch? They just seem like a townie here?

Why don't you reconsider patches

I am, they slipping into scum, though I don't want to hammer a potential scapegoat

Kawaii can you expand on this thought? I might come across it in the next few pages of my read but I'd like to know what patch did specifically that made you think of them as "slipping into scum"

That's me falling into groupthink, being pressured by all sides to believe patch is scum which is exactly why I'm so resistant to hammering patches since it's being pushed so hard, I believe it was the ATE accusation Empath stated but it may have been b4

[KawaiiKame]

[quote=Black post_id=13673059 post_num=1589 time=1677520386 user_id=36961]
Page 52 - still not understanding why everyone is SRing patch? They just seem like a townie here?

patch is the scapegoat, Idek why exactly, that's what scares me, you need to ask dio/empath/fruitive

[KawaiiKame]

Page 52 - still not understanding why everyone is SRing patch? They just seem like a townie here?

patch is the scapegoat, Idek why exactly, that's what scares me, you need to ask dio/empath/fruitive

EBW0P

[KawaiiKame]

Fail

[KawaiiKame]

Probably what he got more heat from. Voting Herta and arguing later that they did it because their entrance was scummy while they hadn't posted yet. He got a bit defensive first ("did I have to") but then admitted to it being rvs (but still somehow maintained that they think the way Herta entered was scummy). During this discussion he mentions tr patch at this point a couple of times. Not much here by itself, I feel the fact that he wasn't more careful with his reason is +town, but also I don't see why would not admit than he didn't have reasons in any case and was trying to initiate discussion (+wolf)

Yeah I'm having a hard time shaking the feeling dio is wolf with this... Empath's case,

Dion created a SR on a slot only after he was questioned about his vote on said slot. This means he didn't care about whether or not he was scumreading scum

Has merit

[KawaiiKame]

Kawaii unvoting Emp on page 56 just to sheep furtive feels weird. Also on this page Empath telling people not to vote for Dion also feels weird. The 180 here from dion being definitely scum to Empath yelling at people for voting him is crazy

I proposed a deal to fruitive to unvote Empath if he voted Dio, so I did, at that point I IS0d Empath and found Empath to be town

[KawaiiKame]

So I will wait it out and see if anyone wants to switch from patch to Empath. If no one does I will drop the patch hammer so we don't reach some awful deadline stalemate

I'm willing to push Empath with you, instinctively I feel it's dio/empath/furtive

[KawaiiKame]

So I will wait it out and see if anyone wants to switch from patch to Empath. If no one does I will drop the patch hammer so we don't reach some awful deadline stalemate

I'm willing to push Empath with you, instinctively I feel it's dio/empath/furtive

patchwork's flip exonerates me

It may condemn you
Even if patch is mafia that does not make you inno, potential bus exists

[KawaiiKame]

So I will wait it out and see if anyone wants to switch from patch to Empath. If no one does I will drop the patch hammer so we don't reach some awful deadline stalemate

I'm willing to push Empath with you, instinctively I feel it's dio/empath/furtive

It's me, you, bewolkt, and patch. We would need someone else like skitter or someone from the patch wagon to join. We can't have two players at e-1 too close to the deadline because we risk not limming anyone and that would be the worst case scenario

I'm good with skitter being the deciding vote, I've had the same thinking with the 4 v 4, you good with skitter deciding?

[KawaiiKame]

So I will wait it out and see if anyone wants to switch from patch to Empath. If no one does I will drop the patch hammer so we don't reach some awful deadline stalemate

I'm willing to push Empath with you, instinctively I feel it's dio/empath/furtive

patchwork's flip exonerates me

It may condemn you
Even if patch is mafia that does not make you inno, potential bus exists

not really tho

Yes really, why would you say patch's flip exonerates you when it doesn't?

[KawaiiKame]

So I will wait it out and see if anyone wants to switch from patch to Empath. If no one does I will drop the patch hammer so we don't reach some awful deadline stalemate

I'm willing to push Empath with you, instinctively I feel it's dio/empath/furtive

It's me, you, bewolkt, and patch. We would need someone else like skitter or someone from the patch wagon to join. We can't have two players at e-1 too close to the deadline because we risk not limming anyone and that would be the worst case scenario

I'm good with skitter being the deciding vote, I've had the same thinking with the 4 v 4, you good with skitter deciding?

skitter could only 'decide' by hammering Empathice in this scenario.

deciding between Empathice/patchwork... it's a decision either way

[KawaiiKame]

I'm not liking furtive's lack of logic, patch flipping either way doesn't exonerate him, skitter will decide both ways with empath/patch
Why is there only one outcome in furtive's mind with the patch flip? Why is skitter's only decision voting empath when she can decide to vote patch too? I'm in confusion...

[KawaiiKame]

We can definitely move both wagons to the furtive slot if everyone is down for that

Down

VOTE: furtive

[KawaiiKame]

So I will wait it out and see if anyone wants to switch from patch to Empath. If no one does I will drop the patch hammer so we don't reach some awful deadline stalemate

I'm willing to push Empath with you, instinctively I feel it's dio/empath/furtive

It's me, you, bewolkt, and patch. We would need someone else like skitter or someone from the patch wagon to join. We can't have two players at e-1 too close to the deadline because we risk not limming anyone and that would be the worst case scenario

I'm good with skitter being the deciding vote, I've had the same thinking with the 4 v 4, you good with skitter deciding?

skitter could only 'decide' by hammering Empathice in this scenario.

I Don't think they would hammer me. Why would they be restricted in such a way?

skitter is already voting patchwork, so she wouldn't be able to decide to hammer them.

skitter is voting Dion.

^

[KawaiiKame]

So I will wait it out and see if anyone wants to switch from patch to Empath. If no one does I will drop the patch hammer so we don't reach some awful deadline stalemate

I'm willing to push Empath with you, instinctively I feel it's dio/empath/furtive

patchwork's flip exonerates me

furitive's flips exonerates you

[KawaiiKame]

So I will wait it out and see if anyone wants to switch from patch to Empath. If no one does I will drop the patch hammer so we don't reach some awful deadline stalemate

I'm willing to push Empath with you, instinctively I feel it's dio/empath/furtive

patchwork's flip exonerates me

furitive's flips exonerates you

Don't flip him then.

If furitive flips town, that's the only way furitive is exonerated

[KawaiiKame]

So I will wait it out and see if anyone wants to switch from patch to Empath. If no one does I will drop the patch hammer so we don't reach some awful deadline stalemate

I'm willing to push Empath with you, instinctively I feel it's dio/empath/furtive

patchwork's flip exonerates me

furitive's flips exonerates you

Don't flip him then.

If furitive flips town, that's the only way furitive is exonerated

Not this patch vote bs

[KawaiiKame]

Skitter will decide who gets hammered between Empath and Patch

It's determined to be Patch then so that's pointless.

Since skitter will not vote you but will vote patch yes?

UNVOTE: furitive

[KawaiiKame]

I wish I could say I was but I'm not good enough to do that stuff. I was joking about wagoning you though. I don't think that's a good idea at all

It isn't, it's too late though
I feel skitter will vote patch

[KawaiiKame]

Kawaii's playstyle is pretty wild. They seem to be perfectly fine with following whatever their top TRs do. I don't necessarily think this is a scumtell because I do this a lot too. When I mindmeld with someone or have a strong TR of them I find myself naturally agreeing with them and trusting their opinions. So I think it's just a new thing and that aligns with my belief that kawaii is just newtown

I had a glimmer of hope but empath killed the fire immediately

VOTE: Empathice

Is patch even going to be online to make this 4 v. 4 when Empath votes furitive again?

[KawaiiKame]

Kawaii's playstyle is pretty wild. They seem to be perfectly fine with following whatever their top TRs do. I don't necessarily think this is a scumtell because I do this a lot too. When I mindmeld with someone or have a strong TR of them I find myself naturally agreeing with them and trusting their opinions. So I think it's just a new thing and that aligns with my belief that kawaii is just newtown

I had a glimmer of hope but empath killed the fire immediately

VOTE: Empathice

Is patch even going to be online to make this 4 v. 4 when Empath votes furitive again?

TBH Dion would probably switch. Especially if they're scum.

In an ideal world we'd all be voting Dion

[KawaiiKame]

If skitter plans to hammer patch then why do I even matter? I can only make it happen sooner which doesn't do anything. If you are bored then go do something else besides hitting f5 on this thread all day

skitter is thinking about it, hopefully she comes online today

[KawaiiKame]

Kawaii's playstyle is pretty wild. They seem to be perfectly fine with following whatever their top TRs do. I don't necessarily think this is a scumtell because I do this a lot too. When I mindmeld with someone or have a strong TR of them I find myself naturally agreeing with them and trusting their opinions. So I think it's just a new thing and that aligns with my belief that kawaii is just newtown

I had a glimmer of hope but empath killed the fire immediately

VOTE: Empathice

Is patch even going to be online to make this 4 v. 4 when Empath votes furitive again?

TBH Dion would probably switch. Especially if they're scum.

This is quite the war we're waging

[KawaiiKame]

Kawaii's playstyle is pretty wild. They seem to be perfectly fine with following whatever their top TRs do. I don't necessarily think this is a scumtell because I do this a lot too. When I mindmeld with someone or have a strong TR of them I find myself naturally agreeing with them and trusting their opinions. So I think it's just a new thing and that aligns with my belief that kawaii is just newtown

I Think it's a personality thing. Gemini to be precise.

[KawaiiKame]

If patch flips town there is definitely scum in black/kawaii/Bewolkt.

How does this flip analysis make sense? Saving town = not being town? What?

[KawaiiKame]

My solving has not been careless

at all

. It was careless of me to ask if you were masons with Dion because that confirms me VT.

Guys, patches has already claimed. Atp pursuing someone else is anti-town because they will have to claim as well if they come close to a lim which will help the scum narrow down the PRs. This is not actually helpful atp.

I Already revealed my VT status.

Note that I would only ask masons to claim as mafia in order to towntell or confirm myself as VT.

Does this not concern anyone? He admits that as scum he would only push for a mason claim to confirm himself VT. Well... he pushed for a mason claim and is now acting like he's a confirmed VT...

Empath = Wolf

[KawaiiKame]

If patch flips town there is definitely scum in black/kawaii/Bewolkt.

How does this flip analysis make sense? Saving town = not being town? What?

Dion, why do you think I'm town now?

Dion is scum is why

[KawaiiKame]

He listed two very towny people as potential scum. Also he suddenly pivoted on me with no reason.

Why is dio being so contrarian this late in the day?

[KawaiiKame]

If patch flips town there is definitely scum in black/kawaii/Bewolkt.

How does this flip analysis make sense? Saving town = not being town? What?

If patches flips town then they necessarily have to be hammered, so I'm not assuming saving town = scum. That would indeed be ridiculous. What I'm assuming is the patch lim will go through, but only after days of visible handwringing in an attempt to gain town cred *if* they flip town.

I guess I just don't see the point of this. The chances of a successful pivot atp is so low that holding back on hammering is no longer pro town. It is the very definition of performative.

I feel you fundamentally misunderstand what's happening, the push to vote patches feels like they being scapegoated by the mafia, mainly waiting on skitter to come back and decide what she wants to do with the vote

[KawaiiKame]

If patch flips town there is definitely scum in black/kawaii/Bewolkt.

And if he flips scum?

*they

[KawaiiKame]

If patch flips town there is definitely scum in black/kawaii/Bewolkt.

How does this flip analysis make sense? Saving town = not being town? What?

If patches flips town then they necessarily have to be hammered, so I'm not assuming saving town = scum. That would indeed be ridiculous. What I'm assuming is the patch lim will go through, but only after days of visible handwringing in an attempt to gain town cred *if* they flip town.

I guess I just don't see the point of this. The chances of a successful pivot atp is so low that holding back on hammering is no longer pro town. It is the very definition of performative.

I feel you fundamentally misunderstand what's happening, the push to vote patches feels like they being scapegoated by the mafia, mainly waiting on skitter to come back and decide what she wants to do with the vote

This sounds informed

This is how I feel... how does this sound informed? Furitive is so bloodlusty with the hammer it makes me fear voting/eliminating patch

[KawaiiKame]

If patch flips town there is definitely scum in black/kawaii/Bewolkt.

How does this flip analysis make sense? Saving town = not being town? What?

If patches flips town then they necessarily have to be hammered, so I'm not assuming saving town = scum. That would indeed be ridiculous. What I'm assuming is the patch lim will go through, but only after days of visible handwringing in an attempt to gain town cred *if* they flip town.

I guess I just don't see the point of this. The chances of a successful pivot atp is so low that holding back on hammering is no longer pro town. It is the very definition of performative.

I feel you fundamentally misunderstand what's happening, the push to vote patches feels like they being scapegoated by the mafia, mainly waiting on skitter to come back and decide what she wants to do with the vote

This sounds informed

What, exactly, sounds informed with this statement?

[KawaiiKame]

If patch flips town there is definitely scum in black/kawaii/Bewolkt.

How does this flip analysis make sense? Saving town = not being town? What?

If patches flips town then they necessarily have to be hammered, so I'm not assuming saving town = scum. That would indeed be ridiculous. What I'm assuming is the patch lim will go through, but only after days of visible handwringing in an attempt to gain town cred *if* they flip town.

I guess I just don't see the point of this. The chances of a successful pivot atp is so low that holding back on hammering is no longer pro town. It is the very definition of performative.

I feel you fundamentally misunderstand what's happening, the push to vote patches feels like they being scapegoated by the mafia, mainly waiting on skitter to come back and decide what she wants to do with the vote

This sounds informed

How tf does it sound informed? Tell me everything I've done this game that sounds informed

[KawaiiKame]

I also find it interesting that you're not including skitter in this mix. You only singled out the 3 people voting for Empathice

Skitter has been mostly absent from this discussion which is why I haven't included her here.

Do you think her being absent from the discussion means she's more likely to be town? Or did you just forget about her?

skitter seems to be forgotten in this game...

[KawaiiKame]

I also find it interesting that you're not including skitter in this mix. You only singled out the 3 people voting for Empathice

Skitter has been mostly absent from this discussion which is why I haven't included her here.

Do you think her being absent from the discussion means she's more likely to be town? Or did you just forget about her?

I didn't forget her, nor do I think her silence here indicates anything.

skitter's silence is pretty nai yee

[KawaiiKame]

You told me that I didn't understand what was happening and that the patches push is a scum scapegoat.

You didn't is why, I say that since it seems you didn't know why patches isn't being voted

[KawaiiKame]

VoteCount 1.11

patchwork [ 4 ]

BluebloodedToffee, dionysus, furtiveglance, empathice

Empathice [ 2 ]

black, bewolkt

BlueBloodedToffee (SE) [ 1 ]

patchwork

Dionysus [ 1 ]

skitter30

Not Voting [ 1 ]

kawaiikame

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to be executed.

Countdown to deadline:(expired on 2023-02-28 21:26:00)

No you're not

oh shit well my vote's supposed to be on empath them VOTE: Empath

Feel it's 4 v. 3 now, Empath is E-1 with patch being at E-2 if Empath didn't vote patch yet

[KawaiiKame]

Kawaii's playstyle is pretty wild. They seem to be perfectly fine with following whatever their top TRs do. I don't necessarily think this is a scumtell because I do this a lot too. When I mindmeld with someone or have a strong TR of them I find myself naturally agreeing with them and trusting their opinions. So I think it's just a new thing and that aligns with my belief that kawaii is just newtown

I Think it's a personality thing. Gemini to be precise.

"I'm a Virgo" -Moxxie

[KawaiiKame]

hopefully...

hopefully Empath flips wolf...

[KawaiiKame]

VOTE: patchwork

[KawaiiKame]

I can't believe ya'll ended day like that...

I agree with furtive that it's probably just Kawaii. The buddying, the hammer, the way Dion treated them. I also agree that we should NOT RUSH THE DAY

I'm not here as much on the weekends and this day is crucial so we should take our time

Ending the day with hammering patch is unforgivable, I deeply feared I'd fall like Empath with the building wagon on me, I didn't want us to be down 2 town with me being the eventual endgame vote, I wish I held out and didn't let fear get to me, but my fear costed us 2 vanilla towns, the exact outcome I did not want
If town loses this game it's on me, I've played emotionally instead of my head, logic dictated Empath = town and my fear consumed me into voting patch, I deeply regret voting patch, I wish I could go back and leave them unvoted... staying silent would be better than what I did
Idk how productive it is to beat myself on past mistakes, the game is not yet lost, game on
With Empath I wish I unvoted in time, I was about to, but I held back and BBT hammered him

Dionysus pretty clearly had a guilty on Kawaii, and I should have listened.

This indicates mafia most likely has a framer, it would be so easy to do this, have me investigate guilty, dio does an implied push on me, kill dio to scapegoat vote me, eliminate me, kill the last town and win the game, it's the perfect plan, especially if the patch vote push was initiated to bait me into quick-hammering patch

I'm only certain Black is town, furitive feels bloodlusty town with wanting patch gone DPI, I do not like BBT hammering Empath at E-I, seems BBT was good with patch/Empath, Toffee only wanted an elimination, skitter feels faded into the bg, wolf is definitely BBT in my eyes

Me killing Dion as wolf is objectively bad play, he pursues me, says I'm going to quickhammer patch, I do, then I immediately kill him? Ik I'm bad as town but why would I be so bad as wolf? Killing Dion only implicates me, and that's why the wolves killed Dion, to implicate me

[KawaiiKame]

I can't believe ya'll ended day like that...

I agree with furtive that it's probably just Kawaii. The buddying, the hammer, the way Dion treated them. I also agree that we should NOT RUSH THE DAY

I'm not here as much on the weekends and this day is crucial so we should take our time

Thank you with wanting to slow down the day, if I'm eliminated town loses

[KawaiiKame]

Mafia has a Framer yeah?

It's highly likely, if dio investigated me, and got guilty on me, then the framer used their night action on me

[KawaiiKame]

It was me I'm the Framer

Isreal?

[KawaiiKame]

Kawaii who is scum? Give us some reads

VoteCount 1.9

patchwork [ 4 ]

BluebloodedToffee, furtiveglance, dionysus, empathice

If patchwork flips town I feel there there is at least one wolf here

I feel the same, patch flipped town so I feel scum is BBT/furitive, BBT's been content to hang back until hammering in DPI while furitive was pushing to hammer patch in DPI, both sent patch to E-I in DP2, BBT even called me town in DP2 while wanting to elim patch

Kawaii is town, no?

Also, can we elim Patch now?

I feel this quote sheds some light:

Because scum are more aware of their votes than town are.

BBT went on to hammer Empath and help eliminate patch DP2, being one of the main people to want patch eliminated DPI

[KawaiiKame]

There are no framers in newbie games

Ty with letting me know, Idk why furitive is saying dio found me guilty when he didn't post any results

[KawaiiKame]

Might vote Kawaii but I don't want to lose the game somehow

You will lose the game if town

[KawaiiKame]

If Kawaii is somehow town it's Black and BBT

I am town, I'm confident it's BBT

[KawaiiKame]

The one I want to pursue first today is definitely kawaii.

Yh this looks like a guilty to me

The implication is I am guilty, but this is only a pursuit, if dion got a guilty on me why not say I'm guilty straight up? That would end the need to pursue me and vote me immediately, undoing the patch vote on the spot

[KawaiiKame]

If Kawaii is somehow town it's Black and BBT

I highly doubt it's Black but it is weird how she has yet to be night killed...

[KawaiiKame]

Cops prefer not to claim outright usually

That's opposite to the meta I'm used to, if dio got red on me dio had the power to stop the patch elim, I fail to see why he didn't if he had the info, I feel he didn't

[KawaiiKame]

I highly doubt it's Black but it is weird how she has yet to be night killed...

This is a great point.

Black should have died N1.

Yes, she should have, unless it's a long play to keep her alive so she's eliminated as town at ELo, Idk if scum would play this long game tho

[KawaiiKame]

The one I want to pursue first today is definitely kawaii.

Yh this looks like a guilty to me

The implication is I am guilty, but this is only a pursuit, if dion got a guilty on me why not say I'm guilty straight up? That would end the need to pursue me and vote me immediately, undoing the patch vote on the spot

If they say guilty straight up, then it confirms their death. If it's just a 'push' they possibly get one more check in.

True, I have 0 defense of why dio said this then unless dio didn't investigate me but wanted to pursue me
I do find it weird that despite not saying guilty straight up he was night killed anyway, like someone knew

[KawaiiKame]

Red on Kawaii made him reconsider

It's not possible dio got red on me since I'm green

[KawaiiKame]

You're talking as if D2 was long enough for anything else to happen as well.

It was super quick, not a lot of time for Dion, or anyone else, to say a whole lot.

Thanks to me, admittedly

[KawaiiKame]

If patch flips town there is definitely scum in black/kawaii/Bewolkt.

This is decisive, Black being wolf is making sense to me, especially since they didn't die in NPI, patch does makes the most investigative sense, innoing patch leads dio to want to be pursuing me

[KawaiiKame]

If patch flips town there is definitely scum in black/kawaii/Bewolkt.

This is decisive, Black being wolf is making sense to me, especially since they didn't die in NPI, patch does makes the most investigative sense, innoing patch leads dio to want to be pursuing me

EDB0P

[KawaiiKame]

Fail

[KawaiiKame]

If patch flips town there is definitely scum in black/kawaii/Bewolkt.

This is decisive, Black being wolf is making sense to me, especially since she didn't die in NPI, patch does makes the most investigative sense, innoing patch leads dio to want to be pursuing me

EDB0P x 2

[KawaiiKame]

I don't really think Kawaii is scummy if there's no cop

Do you believe in dio innoing patch NI?

[KawaiiKame]

This game is too hard

That's what makes the game fun

[KawaiiKame]

If Dionysus green checked patch and then said 'it's mafia, you can never be certain' about them I'll be really annoyed.

Uncertain on getting green w/ patch?

[KawaiiKame]

I want to get things moving but I don't want to lose the game like a fool. I'm pretty confident that the team isn't exactly skitter/Black so I'll invite Kawaii to put a vote down on BBT, if he's so confident.

I'm not confident BBT is wolf now, I feel wolf BBT will push to vote me instead of defending me, wolves have all incentive to push me

[KawaiiKame]

I'm not sure i like that idea

I'm with you

[KawaiiKame]

For you not to like that idea, are you saying you think the scumteam is Me/Black?

That's a possibility, have you looked into Black's IS0?

[KawaiiKame]

For you not to like that idea, are you saying you think the scumteam is Me/Black?

I think there's a very good chance you're scum here and i'm wary of you proposing any sort of hammer testing

I feel the same, furitive pushed to hammer patch 2 days, this hammer test failed b4, furitive specifically said patch flipping scum town confirms him, patch flipped town

[KawaiiKame]

Alright that's it, I'm done with this

I'm pretty sure that Dionysus had a red on Kawaii and I'm not sure why people are arguing for a green on patch when Dionysus said 'we can never be certain' or something

VOTE: KawaiiKame

0nly way you win with this move is if you scum

[KawaiiKame]

Alright that's it, I'm done with this

I'm pretty sure that Dionysus had a red on Kawaii and I'm not sure why people are arguing for a green on patch when Dionysus said 'we can never be certain' or something

VOTE: KawaiiKame

I do see why you believe Dio indicated me as red, but it's not definitive, dio didn't say I'm red, it's likely dio said we cannot be too sure on patch to cover his own ass on being cop

[KawaiiKame]

The Cop died screaming your name my friend, it's not a great look

Ik what it looks like, it's reasonable to vote me, I do hope you be willing to unvote since you don't have absolute proof I am scum at ELo

[KawaiiKame]

Also, Kawaii hammering Empath over patch D1 gave them partner equity.
[/quote]

I didn't hammer Empath D1, BBT did, but I did feel I played badly costing town the game w/ how I played

[KawaiiKame]

And even if that was your reading of it: That it was a guilty on kawaii, you voting patch instead of the person who you fyopv has a guilty on them, is extremely bad.

They never claimed Cop, so that was just a guess which was dispelled by the 'we can never be certain' thing.

Also, Kawaii hammering Empath over patch D1 gave them partner equity.

I didn't hammer Empath D1, BBT did, but I did feel I played badly costing town the game w/ how I played
EBW0P

[KawaiiKame]

(kawaii why are you SO bad at quotes lmao)

I always delete the top spot in quotes by mistakes lmao

[KawaiiKame]

What might be mod info is I am incredibly surprised by how town read black was this game.

They were present and reasonable but if you read the ISO they didn't really...Do...anything?

There really weren't any strong convictions or any pushes of note, main thread contributions were just admonishing town for rushing things which is something mafia love to do.

I was convinced Black was town until D3, that's when I believed she was mafia, but too late at that point
Idk how mafia plays in this site meta but realizing Black is mafia D3 was an epiphany

[KawaiiKame]

Kawaii why'd you pop in to the thread only to quickhammer when you were adamant against hammering?

I feared I'd be voted in the end of DP2 like you did at the end of DP1, that was the mistake that cost town the game in my eyes, letting my fear overwhelm me