Newbie 2118 | Terrieresque! - Day 4

[T3]

Can everyone share:
1. Where are you from (or what time zone are you in)?
2. Your experience in Mafia?
3. Your preferred faction in Mafia and why?

1. i'm from Massachusetts - GMT -4
2. i've been playing forum mafia and chat mafia for a per years
3. scum

content coming soon

[T3]

Gets us talking, gets us out of random voting and into the good stuff. RVS is a fundamentally useless stage of the game and the sooner we can break out of it, the better.

Scum would would RVS to continue for as long as possible to mitigate the amount of healthy, productive conversation we can all have.

I can't believe that this trope still hasn't been defeated yet. RVS will naturally end, most of the time. You don't need to be a troll to end the thing. You're just trying to gain townie credit in a very greedy and kinda overly defensive manner.

i'd be inclined to believe that delta is just being an overzealous towny

[T3]

Gets us talking, gets us out of random voting and into the good stuff. RVS is a fundamentally useless stage of the game and the sooner we can break out of it, the better.

Scum would would RVS to continue for as long as possible to mitigate the amount of healthy, productive conversation we can all have.

I can't believe that this trope still hasn't been defeated yet. RVS will naturally end, most of the time. You don't need to be a troll to end the thing. You're just trying to gain townie credit in a very greedy and kinda overly defensive manner.

i'd be inclined to believe that delta is just being an overzealous towny

Then why so much defensiveness?

It seems to me that Jason is mischaracterizing Delta’s points and actions. I think Delta’s level of defensiveness is appropriate given the situation. At this point it seems like Jason and Delta’s argument boils down to them yelling the same points at each other.

[T3]

I think Delta is town and Jason is scum. Scum want to win arguments, town want to find scum. I liked to way that Delta backed down in MafiaSSK. Jason is mischaracterizing Delta’s points and latching on to semantics. It doesn’t seem like Jason is truly trying to understand Delta’s mindset. Rather, Jason is attacking Delta because Delta doesn’t fully conform to the way that he believes town plays.

[T3]

I think Delta is town and Jason is scum. Scum want to win arguments, town want to find scum. I liked to way that Delta backed down in MafiaSSK. Jason is mischaracterizing Delta’s points and latching on to semantics. It doesn’t seem like Jason is truly trying to understand Delta’s mindset. Rather, Jason is attacking Delta because Delta doesn’t fully conform to the way that he believes town plays.

And you're not backing that up with a vote because?

I usually don't place a vote until much later in the day, unless I'm very confident in my scumread.

[T3]

Oh so you can clearly point out where Delta has been finding Mafia and not just tunneling in a little fit?

While I don't think that Delta has been doing a lot of active scumhunting, his progression on MafiaSSK seemed natural.

[T3]

They townread me but I don't see anything beyond null in terms of their content. There's no work on gamesolving or questions, just statements on the game so far. It's not necessarily AI, but I get the sense that either town or scum could post #69 or #100 and #101 and it wouldn't take any great effort from either alignment.

That's valid - this is very frequently what people say about me as both alignments.

[T3]

I think Delta is town and Jason is scum. Scum want to win arguments, town want to find scum. I liked to way that Delta backed down in MafiaSSK. Jason is mischaracterizing Delta’s points and latching on to semantics. It doesn’t seem like Jason is truly trying to understand Delta’s mindset. Rather, Jason is attacking Delta because Delta doesn’t fully conform to the way that he believes town plays.

And you're not backing that up with a vote because?

I usually don't place a vote until much later in the day, unless I'm very confident in my scumread.

Wait why aren't we talking about this? I also feel like there used to be a not a vote tag. Something like point or something. Why do you feel there's danger with your vote?

I could [verbatim]UNVOTE: UNVOTE: [/verbatim] but that doesn't do anything.
I don't feel there's danger with my vote at all.

[T3]

oops ig verbatim tags don't work here

[T3]

VOTE: deltabreedy


Im catching up on my phone but his posts are not making me feel he is genuine. I have this bad feeling about everything of his I have read so im going to chase this feeling.

just gut at this point? Would love to see if there's anything more to this vote than that, otherwise this kinda looks sus

You're almost becoming to scummy to be scum which I hate.

What else would it actually be at this point other than gut? If you think anyone other than scum have more than "gut" to go off on D1 right now, then I've got some beach front property in Wyoming to sell you.

"too scummy to be scum" lol what? What are you trying to say by this?

Yes, there is more than gut. Have you not been paying attention to the people actually trying to do analysis? sidenote: interesting fallcy there, choosing to straw man, rather than trying to actually defend

On D1, there is only gut. Stop pretending there is more to D1 than there is. I'm looking at each post with zero knowledge of alignment trying to decide if this feels town or this feels scum. There is nothing else any town person can do to go beyond that. There is not a magic formula of "e=mc^2 so a+b=scum" - it's a gut reaction to all of it. D2 is when town actually have knowledge and can use more than gut. D2 generally has at least 2 flips. NOW you can actually analyze things and say "oh person a was town and had this opinion, so i can trust this opinion was a town POV, look how person b pushed person c, person c also flipped town maybe person b is up to no good with that"

There will be nothing you can say to change this fact about the game. ESPECIALLY in a newbie with no other mechanics available to town that can give them anything additional information before the first lim and nk.

there is stuff that town and scum statistically do more often.

[T3]

Kowahbunga - #82 stinks. Not because they disagree with me, but because of the last sentence. 'Don't expect a lot of reads from me D1'. It's concerning too that Jason doesn't jump on this even though it's an admission that they won't offer much (potentially for the next 9 days), and the lack of justification for the reads smells off to me.

Merlyn - The thing that I find odd is the vote and immediate unvote on me. It was justified when I commented in #56 that Jason is today's lim and in #60 that this is what I can only construe as a scumread because I declared that I had a big ol' scumread on Jason. The unvote after it being pointed out that I was at E-2 suggests a lack of confidence in that read, and the weird disconnect between #83 Pointing out that what I've done is the most suspicious thing in the game so far, and then in #89 they go on to vote Mewtaph with what seems like much weaker reasoning. If they thought I was scum, putting me at E-2 would be a good thing - the rapid retraction in case of a mistake doesn't read as coming from town for me. Kind of interchangeable with Mafia below for me.

MafiaSSK - I think there's some very weird elements here that make me lean null-scum over null-town. The OMGUS in #15, the accusation of trolling I took to heart really badly because it's objectively false in #37 and I've been mulling this one over for a while because I can't tell if it's objectively scummy or if I'm just a bit bothered about it. In #38 and in #47, Mafia starts to really echo Jason which didn't help my reaction to events, but as I outline below, this is in a period where there was nothing else to actually talk about. Apparently I was stifling discussion as Jason put it by circling content, but I can't tell if this is a reaction from buddying Jason and being a partner with the most aggressive chainsaw defense going, or if it's coming from a townie that is genuinely concerned about being put to E-2. As several people have said, if 2 people hopped onto the wagon and hammered in pages 1-3, we'd have headed into D2 with a limpool of 5, not 7 because that would damn near confirm 2 scum on the wagon. I understand the concern, but it's really hard to read because of how much it aligns with Jason's POV. Mafia makes reference on several occasions to how their and Jasons' POV aligns and it's just a bit too much for comfort, pushing this read from concerned null/town to null/scum.

Jason- I've gone over this several times. Town don't have to lie and misrepresent in order to develop a case. Jason has done this as I outlined in #41 Jason's language has been passive-aggressive and designed to provoke with fabricated arguments and very deliberate misrepresentations of my intentions. Trying to insinuate that my vote was random when I was very, very open about the intent behind the vote and then doubling down on semantics.

Delta's top four scum reads as of this post were all people who had either voted him or called him scum. Funnily enough, of these four I was the last one to vote him, and now that my vote is there, I'm really scum to him suddenly.

while I see what you mean, I don’t think that necessarily indicates he’s scum? To me it seems more likely that he’s town who’s upset and confirmation biasing.

[T3]

Kowah voted with their gut, but now that they've been called out for it they're backtracking and 'finding' reasons to vote me. Town!Kowah wouldn't have to do this.

@Kowah, why didn't you lead with these justifications?
@Jason, have you read through Kowah's ISO yet?
@SeeEmpty, how does this weigh up against your read on SSK?

I'm defending myself against you. Your approach is obviously "I'll scream that you're the bad guy louder than you'll scream I'm a bad guy"

I'm town. I'm not afraid to be limmed today. You are. That's why I get the feeling we don't have the same wincon.

Why do you say that this is Delta’s approach? I don’t really get that impression, if anything it seems like he’s making more of an effort to engage with other people’s points than anyone else in this argument. I do see what you’re saying about Delta being afraid to be limmed.

[T3]

I'm fully caught up. I don't really have a whole lot to say. I buy Delta's claim, and I think SeeEmpty is town.

[T3]

VOTE: JasonWazza

[T3]

Personally, I'm eyeing the {Jason, Mafia, Kowah} trio. There is something in their interaction that doesn't feel town to me. In the early game, Mafia's interaction with Jason feels off. Scum trying to buddy up with someone? Jason's post 178 where he jumped in and attempt to justify Kowah's vote also doesn't look right to me, and then there is post 194, kind of helping out Kowah for an explanation. Why not let Kowah address to the matter himself?

I really really liked this post and I was thinking a similar thing but I was having trouble properly articulating it.

[T3]

i think that Jason is attacking Delta for how he

thinks[/i] town should play and what he

thinks

the motivation of town should be, without looking properly into the psychology behind Delta's posts

[T3]

oh come on

[T3]

i think that Jason is attacking Delta for how he

thinks

town should play and what he

thinks

the motivation of town should be, without looking properly into the psychology behind Delta's posts

EBWOP

[T3]

very lurk heavy

FWIW I don't lurk.

[T3]

I really liked Merlyn's most recent analysis of Delta, it felt like a town progression.

[T3]

The biggest red flag for me is how they've avoided voting someone for a ridiculously long amount of time.

that's not a scumtell in of itself, i usually don't vote a lot and i know several other players who place a total of one or two votes during day 1 as either alignment

[T3]

Town should be considering that Scum are always claiming a role, but neither of them did.

i'm townreading delta for reasons other than the claim

[T3]

3) Do you think scum would push for a claimed PR lim? I feel they would not want the negative association on D2 of having lead that mislim

Yeah, I've done this as scum before. If the player is scummy enough I'll try to force the lim through quickly, and then blame it on the person who hammered.

[T3]

@Everyone - do you see any change in Jason's play before and after the wagon on him? If yes, what is your opinion about it?

Jason's definitely more on the defensive and less on the offensive, but that's to be expected

[T3]

Kinda concerns me that you managed to find that in 6 minutes.

I get the logic behind this, but I think the way Jason expresses this scumread is bad.

[T3]

Kinda concerns me that you managed to find that in 6 minutes.

I get the logic behind this, but I think the way Jason expresses this scumread is bad.

What about it is bad??

Let me put this another way- how could he have phrased it that would make it 'good' in your eyes?

Jason said that Umlaut's ability to find it in 6 minutes "kinda concerns me," but Jason doesn't say exactly why it concerns him and Jason skirts around explicitly scumreading Umlaut

[T3]

T3, subtlety has it's place, telling Umlaut the exact issue, gives him the option to find an excuse.

What were you trying to achieve by posting it subtly?

[T3]

VOTE: Alianna

This probably flips town

[T3]

VOTE: Jason
I have nothing to say about the setup.

[T3]

Will also point out this, SeeEmpty's read on Alianna can't be trusted at all, because they refused to post before hammer, so of course they are going to make up some reason that Alianna is town, and as scum they would know that.

What do you mean by SeeEmpty ‘refused’ to post before deadline? Did he not say that he would be away?

[T3]

VOTE: Jason
I have nothing to say about the setup.

This is

E-1

btw

[T3]

Umlaut - hard town
SeeEmpty - i really liked his post about Jason and i agree with most of it
Kowahbunga - i agreed with alianna's meta case and i like the way he interacted with jason

PoE:

Merlyn
Mewtaph

Scum:

JasonWazza

[T3]

VOTE: SeeEmpty

Let's try this. I have trouble imagining Jason as scum playing the way he has so I may as well be on the counterwagon.

Why specifically SeeEmpty?

[T3]

How do you believe you aren't a lurker T3?

Like what is your definition of Lurker?

I'm legitimately curious at this point.

Someone who reads the thread but chooses not to post and make content.

[T3]

And just to be clear, you think you are

not

doing exactly that?

I'm trying to make content and find reads, but I'm just bad

[T3]

T3- this is what I wrote in 615, and it hasn’t gotten any better in a day. I have WIFOMed about T3 in my head a bunch, actually. Maybe this is just a townie feeling like they don’t know what to do, like post 640suggests. But- when I go to look at your posts in other games and places, I see that you’re really experienced. I found your (I think most recent) completed townie game here viewtopic.php?p=13670426&f=2&t=90432&us ... #p13670426, and while it’s clear you always make short and sweet posts like you do there, you offer a lot more reasoning and question things more. I’m leaning scum.

viewtopic.php?t=89739&user_select%5B%5D=35441 is my most recent scumgame

[T3]

Why exactly is Jason clearing Mewtaph? Mewtaph was in Jason's null pile for most of the game before flipping to saying that Mewtaph is town.

[T3]

Why exactly is Jason clearing Mewtaph? Mewtaph was in Jason's null pile for most of the game before flipping to saying that Mewtaph is town.

I already had Mewtaph as a town lean yesterday but I can still see they're more overtly towny today. Sometimes people's reads progress.

Yeah but Jason didn't actually explain why he suddenly flipped on Mewtaph

[T3]

Umlaut - hard town
SeeEmpty - i really liked his post about Jason and i agree with most of it
Kowahbunga - i agreed with alianna's meta case and i like the way he interacted with jason

PoE:

Merlyn
Mewtaph

Scum:

JasonWazza

Has this changed at all since the day has progressed or not at all?

not really. i thought merlyn got a bit more towny and kowah dropped a bit

[T3]

VOTE: Mewtaph

pivot?

[T3]

tbh i just want something we can compromise on

[T3]

it seems to me like kowah might be setting up for endgame with the umlaut vote?

[T3]

ISOing SeeEmpty, one thing I do find interesting is that SeeEmpty never actually directly interacts with Merlyn except to ask Merlyn some basic questions or when Merlyn goes and interacts with him. He does interact with everyone else except bekwolt, whom he doesn't mention at all.

[T3]

ISOing SeeEmpty, one thing I do find interesting is that SeeEmpty never actually directly interacts with Merlyn except to ask Merlyn some basic questions or when Merlyn goes and interacts with him. He does interact with everyone else except bekwolt, whom he doesn't mention at all.

it seems to me like kowah might be setting up for endgame with the umlaut vote?

So are you saying you think scum is either Kowah or me?

Also- I'd like to get an answer to my question to you yesterday- why did you suddenly unvote Jason and vote Mewtaph? You said it was to 'compromise' for a lim, but no one was voting Mew- and there was already another wagon on SeeEmpty. Why didn't you compromise by voting there?

i am thinking about who is scum and posting my ideas in the thread. it's not like i have a full solve that i want to push

SeeEmpty claimed jailkeeper, and I was having doubts on Jason.

[T3]

I'm sorry what?

You had doubts literally from SeeEmpty claiming and me saying i think Mewtaph is JailKeeper?

so from this post to this post

You will tell us now exactly which post made you suddenly have doubts.

Note that if it's me calling Mewtaph the person who i thought was Jailkeeper, you must explain how that makes you doubt your scum read on me, and how exactly that means you are now willing to lim someone who i think is Jailkeeper.

SeeEmpty claimed jailkeeper, I decided to reread the past several pages, which led me to reconsider my read on you. There wasn't any particular post, but the main one was 636 and your interactions with Kowah. Yes, I am willing to lim someone who you think is Jailkeeper, just because I townread you doesn't mean that I have to follow all your reads.

[T3]

i don't really have anything to say

i'm town, VOTE: Merlyn