Newbie 2120 - Poetry | Post Game

[Alianna]

Roses are red,
Violets are violet,
VOTE: No Execution,
No need to be violent

yet

!

[Alianna]

Good morning, I'm town
VOTE: eektor
We should prob talk about ourselves, so:
1. Timezone?
2. Experience of forum mafia? Any other experience of mafia?
so
yeah
1. GMT
2. played 2 forum games, diff site
also played chat mafia on pokemon showdown, p high standard for chat, but low standards for forum (undergoing a huge forum rebuild)
gl everyone!

1. MDT (Mountain Daylight Time), GMT-7.
2. I have 8 completed games on this site, 1 scumgame and 7 towngames. All of my mafia experience comes from this site. I am not in any way good at this game.

[Alianna]

@Kanin - you should get yourself an avatar.

Also UNVOTE: because my vote was a joke and an actual no-execution is mathematically bad for town. I'll explain if anyone wants.

[Alianna]

not a good reason (commentating on post 11)
forum hands out really random ranks when we reach a certain number of posts, so we don't really need to pay attention to that
it's rvs and you're new so I will let it slide
ccan't be bothred to qoute or to cehck my speling

Yeah, the ranks are based on post count:

0 - Watcher
1 - Ninja
2 - Townie
100 - Goon
1000 - Mafia Scum
5000 - Jack of All Trades
10000 - Survivor

[Alianna]

Mint's vote is fine.

[Alianna]

Those endgame situations have so many different names lol. I'm pretty sure most people use ELo (Execute/Eliminate or Lose) and MeLo (Misexecute/Miseliminate and Lose), but I've heard LiLo and MiLo, LimLo, YeetLo, XLo, Final 3, 4, 5, etc., some that still use LyLo and MyLo even though that's outdated, and now VoLo.

[Alianna]

VOTE: iamveryhappy

Seems like an odd defense to make, clearly this is a scum pair in iamveryhappy and Alianna.

Timezone; AEST
History; Plenty of old Mafiascum games.

What do you mean by a defense?

[Alianna]

Ah. I thought you were referencing the mechanics since we'd both mentioned that and I was prepared to post an essay.

I agree 15 is a little odd.

[Alianna]

In fact, I'll jump on the wagon.

VOTE: iamveryhappy

[Alianna]

Yep, you got me! Might as well turn myself in.

VOTE: Alianna

[Alianna]

In a scummy way, or do they just not sit well?

[Alianna]

I'm not. My question is more aimed at geting an understanding of ClarkBar's mindset.
If I were that concerned about the optics of self-voting (which I've done more than once as both alignments), I just wouldn't do it.

[Alianna]

I'm not. My question is more aimed at geting an understanding of ClarkBar's mindset.
If I were that concerned about the optics of self-voting (which I've done more than once as both alignments), I just wouldn't do it.

VOTE: Alliana

I just don't like the idea that town would vote for town. Unless they weren't town.

There are some other baiting/later game strategy stuff that I could accept, but that is not where we are. Plus, I feel RVS should be nearing its end at this point.

To be frank, and this is admittedly thin, the "I do this stuff no matter my alignment" thing also isn't helpful.

If I'm not town, I can't be town voting for town.

I think this goes without saying, but there was absolutely nothing strategic about post 30. I suppose it generated some discussion and altered people's view of me in the game. But those were more anticipated side effects than things I was trying to achieve.

You might not find it helpful, but it is verifiably true.

I will put the vote back though. happy's 15 had a bit of a forced vibe to it and it's not like I have anywhere better to vote.

VOTE: iamveryhappy

[Alianna]

@Alliana

6 is weird, and then we have 14 which corrects it. I hate to seem like I'm tunneling you, but what is the point of suggesting an action that is scum-orientated? If I were paranoid (I am) I would think that the last sentence is designed to make you some kind of player of trust. I would assume, to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are trying to test the waters on a no-lynch?

Are you operating off the assumption that everything I post has been meant seriously or semi-seriously? It hasn't. The game is poetry-themed, so I posted the first piece of bad mafia-related poetry that I could think up and it happened to involve a no-execution vote.

[Alianna]

@Alliana

6 is weird, and then we have 14 which corrects it. I hate to seem like I'm tunneling you, but what is the point of suggesting an action that is scum-orientated? If I were paranoid (I am) I would think that the last sentence is designed to make you some kind of player of trust. I would assume, to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are trying to test the waters on a no-lynch?

Are you operating off the assumption that everything I post has been meant seriously or semi-seriously? It hasn't. The game is poetry-themed, so I posted the first piece of bad mafia-related poetry that I could think up and it happened to involve a no-execution vote.

I'd also like to add on that I was the first person who mentioned that a no-execution is bad for town. I unvoted in 14 because Kanin voted with me and I didn't want people to think it was actually a good course of action. If I were testing the waters on a no-execution, why would I be the first to point out that it's a suboptimal move and why would I not wait for more reactions before unvoting?

[Alianna]

Holy fuck this is confusing. There’s so many vo’s- anyhow, uhhhh- how was everyone’s evening/possibly morning/whatever? Also I’ll get a pfp, yeah.

You’ll get used to it lol.
I’m not sure if this helps, but if you click the ISO button on a post, you can see just that player’s posts. That can sometimes reduce the noise and confusion and make it easier to go back to things.
And my day’s been alright.

[Alianna]

Post tags? (post)15(/post) but use square brackets and change the number.

[Alianna]

You can’t call someone a lurker for having one post 4 pages and 24 hours into the game.
Kanin is completely new to the game, kind of understandable that he doesn’t have any substantive content yet.

[Alianna]

One last thing, and I apologize for the string of posts. I just had some stuff to address and I like to avoid big walls of text. I don't believe how often somebody posts or the value of the content are great indicators of alignment at this point. If this were not a newbie game I would feel differently, but I think it's worth remembering that for some this can be overwhelming what with the acronyms, pacing, formatting etc. At a certain point I'll be much less charitable, but for now I'd suggest letting some get their feet wet.

^
This is completely true, good post.

[Alianna]

Since there seems to be some confusion around my entrance, let me clarify:

Roses are red,
Violets are violet,
VOTE: No Execution,
No need to be violent

yet

!

This is a joke.

@Kanin - you should get yourself an avatar.

Also UNVOTE: because my vote was a joke and an actual no-execution is mathematically bad for town. I'll explain if anyone wants.

This is serious.

Ah. I thought you were referencing the mechanics since we'd both mentioned that and I was prepared to post an essay.
I agree 15 is a little odd.

In fact, I'll jump on the wagon.

VOTE: iamveryhappy

These are semi-serious. Not well-reasoned, I don't actually want a happy execution, but not jokes either.

Yep, you got me! Might as well turn myself in.

VOTE: Alianna

This is a joke.

Everything after that is either serious or semi-serious.

[Alianna]

Holy fuck this is confusing. There’s so many vo’s- anyhow, uhhhh- how was everyone’s evening/possibly morning/whatever? Also I’ll get a pfp, yeah.

I am at +5:30. This is my first game. I am going to see how things play out before voting.

Do either of you have any thoughts on the discussions so far? Any reads or anything yet?

I’ve been reading and I do agree that even if they were joke votes, this all does seem pretty scummy. However, this whole situation is not sitting right with me, I don’t know.

"This all does seem pretty scummy" is a scummy phrase.
Not something I think is worth voting at the moment, but I would like to hear more from you as well. It would be good if you could share some more reads.

[Alianna]

Speaking of defending me from eektor...

UNVOTE: ratrat

VOTE: Alianna

I think Alianna's play has been reactionary to others and not actively hunting scum. She voted for happy and when Jason said she was bussing, she changed her vote to herself. When Clark found it scummy for her to be voting for herself, she goes back to voting for happy. Comparing the 3 SE's, I think Jason and Clark have been moving the game forward and out of RVS, while Alianna has just been reacting to what people are posting about her.

P.S. How do you quote specific posts? I see the quote tag and there is a post tag

Use of clichéd tells (proactive vs. reactive dichotomy) - I'm not a fan of the approach but it's probably NAI.
I'm pretty sure I'd already said this at this point, but not everything I had posted (or that everyone else had posted) was serious. Did you actually think I thought Jason was seriously accusing me of bussing there?
You imply that I took the self-vote off because I was being accused, but what else was I going to do? Leave it there? I had to do that at some point regardless of whether I was getting scumread for it or not.

Calling her play reactionary seems disingenuous given that it was (i mean she was actively reacting to me), but not in a scummy way, i don't see any way it can be read other then a bit of banter.

Going to a joke vote in RVS, not scummy.
Replacing your joke vote with your more real "Random" vote, not scummy.

And comparing us as SE's makes no sense, at least not this early on when all we have been in is RVS.

Alianna was actively reacting to you and Clark. Reacting is passive, not actively looking for possible scum. That is scummy.

Going to a joke vote in RVS, not scummy.
Replacing your joke vote with another joke vote of voting yourself, scummy.
After getting called out on it, and going back to your original joke vote, scummy.

I believe we are out of RVS. We have enough information to start getting our initial reads on people. Also, I compared the SE's because they are the ones with the most experience in the game. Like for instance I expect the SE's to be better at moving this game out of the RVS than some of the newer people.

I don't get how you're simultaneously calling my votes joke votes (i.e. completely non-serious) and saying that my motive for changing my votes has to do with other players scumreading me (a serious and game-related motivation).
Something doesn't add up here. These posts don't seem thought through or consistent. I'm keeping an eye on you.

I'll decide if I want to change votes when I'm done my reading. I'm trying to organize my thoughts into a primitive readslist, but I'm posting as I go.

[Alianna]

I guess that's fair enough. I still feel like something is off with eektor's reasoning though.

[Alianna]

Reads are approximately this. I don't think I'm going to move my vote at this point.

{ClarkBar, JasonWazza, MintChippo}

{Merlyn, ratrat}

{iamveryhappy, KaninIGuess, eektor}

[Alianna]

A good part of it is gut, but it's also the explanation for their vote on me and the reconsidering of my slot (is "reconsidering" the right word?). The reasoning in these quotes is pretty detailed and it doesn't feel like there's any agenda behind them. Clark is just trying to make sense of my slot.

Spoiler: quotes

I also don't like that you used Alianna's post 30 as part of your justification of your vote. That was pretty clearly sparring sarcastically with Jason, suggesting his reasoning for calling her part of a scumpair with IAmVeryHappy weak. NAI to me.

Maybe NAI to you, but worth following up on for me.

If I were testing the waters on a no-execution, why would I be the first to point out that it's a suboptimal move and why would I not wait for more reactions before unvoting?

Fair.

I want to be clearer than maybe I have been about my motives for voting Alianna. Firstly, I don't like self-votes one little bit. Secondly, the suggestion of a no-execution. I appreciate it was done in a light-hearted manner and I can accept that it ultimately wasn't an actual attempt to promote that idea. Finally, I have had experience with people manipulating their meta so that any kind of behavior of theirs can be declared NAI. Alliana didn't go too far with this, but I had to acknowledge it when I read 34.

Individually these things might seem small and NAI. Combined though I felt they warranted a vote and a conversation about my concerns. Also, I don't like an extended RVS, and had non-random reasons to place a vote. I am going to read through again and get a bit more caught up before I decide if I am going to move my vote.

Calling her play reactionary seems disingenuous given that it was (i mean she was actively reacting to me), but not in a scummy way, i don't see any way it can be read other then a bit of banter.

I don't think it's unfair to accuse her of not actively scum-hunting. I think eektor made a valid point. However, it is early in the game, and I don't know what tactics Alianna uses. For all I know she could be scum-hunting very actively, but I just don't know her well enough to recognize it.

ClarkBar's posts, on the other hand, strike me as a little more strange.

I will endeavor to be more clear. I can be a little wordy, and sometimes my meaning gets lost. This happens regardless of my alignment.

I appreciate RVS and its function. It just so happens that after my first read through I had a real vote to place. And Alianna responded gracefully and that's been helpful in my efforts to sort you all out. I know it might have seemed early, but me placing a random vote when I had qualms with a player would have been disingenuous.

[Alianna]

I can also see what you're saying, I'm just not reaching the same conclusion.
That is a good point about their vote, though.

[Alianna]

UNVOTE:

I don't mind the happy wagon, but I don't want E-1 until we're actually ready to execute someone.

[Alianna]

@Merlyn - I'll respond to your post but I forgot what my reads even are this game. One second.

[Alianna]

Disclaimer: I'm tired and probably don't make too much sense. I can try to clarify things tomorrow if I need to.

eektor: So, I was fascinated by Alianna's first post- something like that is designed to generate conversation and as soon I read it, I decided to keep a look out for anyone who might use it as an opportunity to start a wagon (which is why Clark is sus to me). Her next five posts aren't content at all, just helping newbies and answering the starting question by happy. Her subsequent vote on happy is a good one, starting some pressure from a post she and others found odd. I don't agree with the concerns raised about her self-vote, which I explained in an earlier post. So far, all town vibes towards Alianna.

But, post 101 doesn't sit right with me- Alianna was very kind to other newbies before this, but suddenly goes harder on eektor:

Something doesn't add up here. These posts don't seem thought through or consistent. I'm keeping an eye on you.

I don't think this is true- I don't agree with eektor's case against Alianna, but I understand it and I don't see how it's inconsistent?

The inconsistency was the thing that Jason pointed out to me and I walked back on a bit.
What I still take issue with is right here:

I'm pretty sure I'd already said this at this point, but not everything I had posted (or that everyone else had posted) was serious. Did you actually think I thought Jason was seriously accusing me of bussing there?
You imply that I took the self-vote off because I was being accused, but what else was I going to do? Leave it there? I had to do that at some point regardless of whether I was getting scumread for it or not.

eektor's post made some pretty reachy assumptions about my motives, assumptions that feel almost unrealistic to make. I guess I understand the part about me moving my vote back to happy on a

very

superficial level, but I still don't think it's strong. And the reasoning about the initial self-vote? Just...what?

Couple this with

I guess that's fair enough. I still feel like something is off with eektor's reasoning though.

'Fair enough' refers to Jason's comment that eektor's point is actually sound. 'Something is off' is a pretty nebulous response, it's not great reasoning itself.

I don't love this, but so far it's the only concerning thing in her posts. Slight town read.

I didn't interpret 102 as saying eektor's point was sound, only that mine wasn't. Jason even said afterwards that he didn't think eektor's reasoning was great.
I'll grant you that 103 wasn't well-reasoned. I have difficulty putting words to my thoughts sometimes, so "something is off" is sometimes all I have.

@Alianna, can I hear the reasoning behind your first townread in post 104. I know you already explained Clark, but everyone else.

I'm too tired for this today and I don't actually remember. I probably just skimmed their ISOs and thought "this passes a vibe check." Might talk more about those slots tomorrow.

[Alianna]

UNVOTE:

I don't mind the happy wagon, but I don't want E-1 until we're actually ready to execute someone.

Do you truly expect a hammer?

This is why an early E-1 push can be very informative.

I didn't think it was likely, but it's not exactly unheard of.
I'm not a fan of early E-1s on principle. I don't think there's a good reason to put someone that close to execution unless we're actually okay with it happening.
It's also possible for a player (especially someone newer) to see they're at E-1 and claim when they don't have to.

[Alianna]

I'll grant you that 103 wasn't well-reasoned. I have difficulty putting words to my thoughts sometimes, so "something is off" is sometimes all I have.

So then i'll see if i can get this clarified properly for others.

"Something is off" basically refers to "i got a gut feeling that something isn't right here" correct?

Semantics i get it, but this discussion is basically turning into a confusion of different types of semantics.

Pretty much. More accurately, "something is off, but I don't know how to explain it yet."

[Alianna]

In fact i think the something that is off, is that they are sticking to the vote, without really adding much of substance. (note yes, i actually think i have the same gut feel for this that Alianna has even though i understand the logic line.)

Though admittedly there is a few that aren't really doing a whole lot of consequence while acting like they are (or at least that's how it feels.)

I didn't notice that, but it is a good point (at the time anyway).

I'd kind of expect them to respond to 101.

[Alianna]

Instead of re-evaluating/giving more thoughts on me after my response to them, they just asked other people for theirs.
That feels sus but I need to finish catching up.

[Alianna]

I'll grant you that 103 wasn't well-reasoned. I have difficulty putting words to my thoughts sometimes, so "something is off" is sometimes all I have.

So then i'll see if i can get this clarified properly for others.

"Something is off" basically refers to "i got a gut feeling that something isn't right here" correct?

Semantics i get it, but this discussion is basically turning into a confusion of different types of semantics.

Pretty much. More accurately, "something is off, but I don't know how to explain it yet."

Actually, it could be both.

[Alianna]

Unofficial VC for my reference:

iamveryhappy (E-2): JasonWazza, MintChippo, ClarkBar
eektor (2): iamveryhappy, Merlyn

Not Voting (4): ratrat, KaninIGuess, Alianna, eektor

[Alianna]

I kind of want to leave happy and Clark alone. They've got major partner equity but I don't think they're actually maf.

VOTE: eektor

E-2.

[Alianna]

Sorry about my spamposting.

@mod

- Kanin needs a prod.

[Alianna]

I kind of want to leave happy and Clark alone. They've got major partner equity but I don't think they're actually maf.

VOTE: eektor

E-2.

Wait, scratch that. They might be.

[Alianna]

Who’s sus? ඞ

[Alianna]

There are two maf in this game so you should probably share both suspicions.

[Alianna]

Hey, just needed to step away for a bit as this game can get intense. I'll respond to Jason's post about me later.

Instead of re-evaluating/giving more thoughts on me after my response to them, they just asked other people for theirs.
That feels sus but I need to finish catching up.

I wonder why Alianna is talking about me in the 3rd person to everyone else and then expects me to reply to them?

@Alianna Do you have any questions for me?

What I don't understand is why only 2 people have asked me questions directly. Jason and Merlyn. I will respond to anything asked of me directly, but I will choose to respond to whatever I want if nothing is asked of me. I'm sorry if that sounds direct, but I'm a direct person. No offense to anyone.

193, the post you are referencing, was a continuation of the thought process in 192. The point in those two posts (which I already stated, but I'll repeat) was that you didn't express any thoughts on me after I posted 101, which was a response to you and a defense of myself. I would expect a town player to respond to the points I made about their posts, and to explain whether or not their read has changed on me. Instead, you went and asked a bunch of other people how they felt about me, as if you were scum trying to not-so-subtly gauge if I was still a viable wagon.
The point about not responding to posts not addressed to you is fair...except for the fact that the majority of 101 was, in fact, addressed to you and written in the second person.

Spoiler: long quote

Speaking of defending me from eektor...

UNVOTE: ratrat

VOTE: Alianna

I think Alianna's play has been reactionary to others and not actively hunting scum. She voted for happy and when Jason said she was bussing, she changed her vote to herself. When Clark found it scummy for her to be voting for herself, she goes back to voting for happy. Comparing the 3 SE's, I think Jason and Clark have been moving the game forward and out of RVS, while Alianna has just been reacting to what people are posting about her.

P.S. How do you quote specific posts? I see the quote tag and there is a post tag

Use of clichéd tells (proactive vs. reactive dichotomy) - I'm not a fan of the approach but it's probably NAI.
I'm pretty sure I'd already said this at this point, but not everything I had posted (or that everyone else had posted) was serious. Did you actually think I thought Jason was seriously accusing me of bussing there?
You imply that I took the self-vote off because I was being accused, but what else was I going to do? Leave it there? I had to do that at some point regardless of whether I was getting scumread for it or not.

Calling her play reactionary seems disingenuous given that it was (i mean she was actively reacting to me), but not in a scummy way, i don't see any way it can be read other then a bit of banter.

Going to a joke vote in RVS, not scummy.
Replacing your joke vote with your more real "Random" vote, not scummy.

And comparing us as SE's makes no sense, at least not this early on when all we have been in is RVS.

Alianna was actively reacting to you and Clark. Reacting is passive, not actively looking for possible scum. That is scummy.

Going to a joke vote in RVS, not scummy.
Replacing your joke vote with another joke vote of voting yourself, scummy.
After getting called out on it, and going back to your original joke vote, scummy.

I believe we are out of RVS. We have enough information to start getting our initial reads on people. Also, I compared the SE's because they are the ones with the most experience in the game. Like for instance I expect the SE's to be better at moving this game out of the RVS than some of the newer people.

I don't get how you're simultaneously calling my votes joke votes (i.e. completely non-serious) and saying that my motive for changing my votes has to do with other players scumreading me (a serious and game-related motivation).
Something doesn't add up here. These posts don't seem thought through or consistent. I'm keeping an eye on you.

I'll decide if I want to change votes when I'm done my reading. I'm trying to organize my thoughts into a primitive readslist, but I'm posting as I go.

[Alianna]

I'm not going to ask specifically for a response to it now, but I am curious to know where you stand on me aside from the unvote.

[Alianna]

The point about not responding to posts not addressed to you is fair...

On second thought, idk if I want to say this exactly. Like, it is fair in a sense, post what you want, but what you choose to respond to is alignment-indicative and I'm wary of things like that being used to justify scummy patterns.

[Alianna]

Plurality isn’t a thing in the Newbie Queue. If nobody is hammered before deadline, nobody gets executed.
Also, can we cut the claim talk?

[Alianna]

@Alianna Looking over the post again, the only questions I see sound rhetorical to me and not really looking for an answer. As for why I was asking questions about you and happy was I wanted to look for anything that could be a possible partner for you and him. Because I didn't think you and him could be partners. If I was scum looking for votes, happy was dropping a lot of scummy posts and that would have been an easy wagon to join. Just look at how quickly it happened.

Right now, I have you as null. Mostly because I haven't seen you doing much scum hunting and I feel you have been a little quiet lately.

The part about my questions sounding rhetorical is fair.
I find it a little strange you think I’ve been quiet, given that I’ve been the top poster all game.
The partner thing is interesting but I’ll get to it later. I need to actually review the posts.

[Alianna]

you wouldn't get it
my claim talk has a strategy which I will tell you postgame

You’ve softclaimed both PR and VT.

[Alianna]

I should take my own advice though and not discuss it further.

[Alianna]

I might at least chip in on my thoughts regarding this game at this point, i honestly have a serious feeling that there might not even be active scum players right now (Happy still reads as scum/troll to me, though i also don't really consider him active to a certain extent, given he still hasn't really given proper opinions on anyone).

Clark, Kanin and ratrat not being active kind of makes this game hard to judge with anything useful.

In reality we are missing like half of everyone's interactions with other players, so it can be hard to gauge actual motivation for the most part.

For example, outside of happy and clark, i have no definitive pairs that i could think up, and that means more then likely there is at least 1 scum member in {Clark, Kanin, Ratrat} if not potentially even 2.

I do think there's a good chance of inactive scum here.
This is kind of a prodge. I'll talk more later, just busy at the moment.

[Alianna]

2 AM readslist time!

MintChippo

Most of their posting is solid (even if I don’t agree with all of it), generally good vibes, in the townbin they go!
My only issue here is with the framing of 69 as trying to stop discussion. I don’t see it as anything other than them disagreeing with Mint’s read.

Merlyn

Basically the same reasons as Mint.

ClarkBar

This read is not as strong as it was, but it is still a TR for the reasons stated in 106.
As much as I disagreed with the E-1 on happy, the read was fair.
Unless happy actually flips scum. Then, I will have questions.
I am interested in more thoughts from them.

JasonWazza

The initial vote on eektor was good, switch to happy was alright.
127 doesn’t make any sense though.
Up to 163 is fine, but the read on eektor there feels a little misrepresentative, considering that eektor very clearly asked three people their reads on me.

the new eektor wagon seems meh, will look more into it

happy, you're voting for me, so the wagon you are talking about on me is Jason, right? You're town reading him, what makes him town to you? Also, what are your thoughts on Alianna?

@Merlyn what's your opinion and read on happy and Alianna?

@Clark

I appreciate RVS and its function. It just so happens that after my first read through I had a real vote to place. And Alianna responded gracefully and that's been helpful in my efforts to sort you all out. I know it might have seemed early, but me placing a random vote when I had qualms with a player would have been disingenuous.

After that, what is your read on Alianna? Are you still reading her as scum or null or town? If you are reading here as null or town, why is your vote still on her?

I don’t see why Jason needs to say “one person” there.
Rest of the ISO is fine.
This read is objectively pretty null, but there's a bit of a gut feeling that moves it upwards in the list.

Mislim Bait

I’ll give this one time.

iamveryhappy

Once again, I don’t believe that 69 was trying to stifle discussion and I don’t like that that’s how the playerlist has framed it.
81, however, is a little overboard (also, Mint had already said what they had against Clark?). I can see it pointing to happy!scum regardless of Clark’s alignment.
119 is an oof, but I don’t think it’s AI.
Reads in 131 and 134 are meh.
The rest is mostly self-defense and PR talk.
Speaking of the PR talk, it’s concerning. Not sus concerning, just concerning. It’s probably best that I save the elaboration for postgame, but for now, I’ll say that it’s likely not as strong of a strategy as you think it is and can easily backfire.
Also, can we mention the fact that happy has not changed their vote since RVS? @happy - do you scumread anyone? Is eektor an RVS vote turned real vote, or do you just not know where else to vote?
I understand most of the case here, but I also see the world where this is reckless, chaotic newbtown who isn’t really reading. I could be persuaded to vote happy, but it’s not my first choice.

eektor

I’ve already talked a fair bit about this slot, so I won’t repeat what I already said, but I don’t think that much has changed.
Their posting has improved slightly, but I don’t think any of it is that hard to fake. It also all feels kind of…wooden? I think that’s more a posting style thing than an alignment thing though.
I also wonder if Jason's push on them is making them look a bit better.

KaninIGuess

Inactivity and confusion are not AI in themselves, but I have seen mafia try to hide behind those things, promising content and then not delivering.
I also see a contradiction between 202 and 206. In 202, Kanin said he was deciding between two suspicious parties, but in 206, after I said “who’s sus?” and asked to hear both suspicions, he said he needed to think about it and he’d have an answer later. This suggests to me that he may not have actually had two suspicious parties in mind, and was making that up to look like he has reads and then stalling for time.
That and I stand by my previous statement that “this all does seem pretty scummy” is a scummy phrase.

I'd be fine with switching back to eektor (maybe happy or Mislim Bait if I need to), but I want to pursue this lead on Kanin for now.

VOTE: KaninIGuess

P-edit: This doesn't account for the most recent posts. Also don't expect responses from me right away, as I said, it's 2 AM and I need sleep.

[Alianna]

KaninIGuess

Inactivity and confusion are not AI in themselves, but I have seen mafia try to hide behind those things, promising content and then not delivering.
I also see a contradiction between 202 and 206. In 202, Kanin said he was deciding between two suspicious parties, but in 206, after I said “who’s sus?” and asked to hear both suspicions, he said he needed to think about it and he’d have an answer later. This suggests to me that he may not have actually had two suspicious parties in mind, and was making that up to look like he has reads and then stalling for time.
That and I stand by my previous statement that “this all does seem pretty scummy” is a scummy phrase.

I'd be fine with switching back to eektor (maybe happy or Mislim Bait if I need to), but I want to pursue this lead on Kanin for now.

VOTE: KaninIGuess

P-edit: This doesn't account for the most recent posts. Also don't expect responses from me right away, as I said, it's 2 AM and I need sleep.

Alianna, assuming that Kanin doesn't suddenly show up and become active, how do you plan to pursue this lead on them?

I had some optimism that they would return. Perhaps I was wrong.

[Alianna]

Mega oof.

[Alianna]

Reads are approximately this. I don't think I'm going to move my vote at this point.

{ClarkBar, JasonWazza, MintChippo}

{Merlyn, ratrat}

{iamveryhappy, KaninIGuess, eektor}

I kind of want to leave happy and Clark alone. They've got major partner equity but I don't think they're actually maf.

VOTE: eektor

E-2.

I kinda of want an explanation of what changed in between these posts cause you went quiet for awhile

196 was based on a really stupid tinfoil theory that would be even more stupid to talk about.

198 was the realization.

[Alianna]

*Regarding Eektor*
I also wonder if Jason's push on them is making them look a bit better.

Huh? what does this mean?

When a scum (or anyone really) gets pushed or questioned for less-than-solid reasons, they can defend themselves easily in a way that makes them look townier. Could just be a bias I fall into though. I thought of it because I got fooled by something like that in my last game.

[Alianna]

Reads are approximately this. I don't think I'm going to move my vote at this point.

{ClarkBar, JasonWazza, MintChippo}

{Merlyn, ratrat}

{iamveryhappy, KaninIGuess, eektor}

I kind of want to leave happy and Clark alone. They've got major partner equity but I don't think they're actually maf.

VOTE: eektor

E-2.

I kinda of want an explanation of what changed in between these posts cause you went quiet for awhile

196 was based on a really stupid tinfoil theory that would be even more stupid to talk about.
198 was the realization.

Alright but I saw your latest read list and happy went to null like above eektor and kanini
did happy say something that made you feel better?

I couldn't quote you a specific post. I just get the vibe that they're chaotic and don't really know what they're doing regardless of their alignment.

[Alianna]

@mod - Limited access until Thursday.

[Alianna]

timing
but I was about to say that alianna votes aren't bad
They haven't really push people much like most of their posts are just replies
and their strongest scumread is a lurker who havent posted for like many days

Yeah, I know the timing's not great. Life is what it is though.
At a glance, Python's ISO is much townier than Kanin's was, so I won't leave the vote sitting there.

UNVOTE:

[Alianna]

Here for a bit.
@Merlyn - I only see one question, where's the other one?
Re: 379 - I think I said it already, but Python is looking better than Kanin did. I do like how they didn't immediately jump to scumreading limbait!happy. Probably

about here

if I did another list.

@Jason - Quite frankly, I didn't see the point. If I respond, there's me being concerned about my optics again (look, I'm doing it again in this post!). If I don't respond, then I'm ignoring a case. And either way, I don't think it would actually matter because the essence of my response is "you are scumreading me over a playstyle difference." If you want a response though, sure, give me a minute.

[Alianna]

I don't think I saw it, unless it was the one I responded to in 314.

[Alianna]

Spoiler: Jason wall

How is it always the case where the highest posters are only ever there with non-content based posts.

Re-Reading Alianna, the issue i now have is that they are super focused on their own optics, rather then actively looking for scum.

And the early reads seem... really odd the more i look at them.

Reads are approximately this. I don't think I'm going to move my vote at this point.

{ClarkBar, JasonWazza, MintChippo}

{Merlyn, ratrat}

{iamveryhappy, KaninIGuess, eektor}

I'm not sure entirely what makes me think this reads list is bad, probably a mix of Kanin and Eektor being that low, and Clark being that high.

It feels like a reads list who's aim is to get as many people out of null as possible, rather then having real reads.

I didn't talk much about Kanin, but I did explain my eektor and Clark reads (eektor before the list, Clark after you asked). Do you not think posts such as 101 and 106 were real?

There's also this fairly consistent thing that they are posting to try and alter optics (or at least that's how it looks to me)

Disclaimer: I'm tired and probably don't make too much sense. I can try to clarify things tomorrow if I need to.

P-edit: This doesn't account for the most recent posts. Also don't expect responses from me right away, as I said, it's 2 AM and I need sleep.

Maybe that's NAI and they do it often, i'd have to check other games to check that, for now i'm leaving it here as a note for myself.

There's also this weird backpedaling of a statement, that reads as Scum not wanting to rule things out on themselves.

I kind of want to leave happy and Clark alone. They've got major partner equity but I don't think they're actually maf.

VOTE: eektor

E-2.

Wait, scratch that. They might be.

And hell even this new reads list has a way to not rule people entirely out

This read is objectively pretty null, but there's a bit of a gut feeling that moves it upwards in the list.

Unless happy actually flips scum. Then, I will have questions.

This is on 2 of their 4 town reads, and the fact that she is so focused on making sure the town reads are able to be removed from town is very concerning.

UNVOTE: iamveryhappy
VOTE: Alianna

That's one way to frame it.
The other way is that I'm town, it's D1, I don't have any info, my playstyle isn't all that confident or aggressive, and my reads just aren't that strong.
I see you saying stuff like this: "i believe it's better to confront someone with confidence even while you don't actually have said confidence." and so it makes sense why you have that read of me, and I don't find you suspicious for it, but you have to keep in mind not everyone is going to approach things the same way. I don't exaggerate my reads at all, and I account for the fact that my D1 townreads aren't usually all town and my scumreads aren't usually all scum.
There is absolutely scum motivation to do what I'm doing, it's just that that's not the only motivation.

[Alianna]

I see eektor's at E-1, that's probably a good thing, let me read their recent posts.

[Alianna]

On a skim, my read there remains unchanged. I'd normally declare intent to hammer and ask for a claim, but I'm not sure if we'd rather wait for a Clark replacement before we execute anyone?

[Alianna]

I come back and we're E-1ing happy?
I am...not optimistic about this, to say the least.

[Alianna]

Also, do we trust town!happy not to fakeclaim for the sake of some strategy that we're not galaxy brain enough to understand?

[Alianna]

Also, do we trust town!happy not to fakeclaim for the sake of some strategy that we're not galaxy brain enough to understand?

Not using that as a reason against voting them, I just think this is a possibility we might want to consider.

[Alianna]

Let me read the thread lol.

[Alianna]

My thoughts on userpython are null. I can't move them to town because they started the discussion on the setup of the game, and I don't see why that discussion is needed on day one and there have been no claims.

Mislim - I'm reading as town.

Mech talk is kind of Python's thing. So yeah, that is null for them.

[Alianna]

Meh, I don't feel like writing an essay, or for that matter, writing anything.

VOTE: eektor

I still prefer this. They haven't done anything that changes my read on them.
Pretty sure that's E-2.

[Alianna]

*contemplates responding with a quickhammer*

[Alianna]

It is a good point though. If happy lolhammers this after 471, we just vote them. 1 for 1 isn't a bad trade.

[Alianna]

It is a good point though. If happy lolhammers this after 471, we just vote them. 1 for 1 isn't a bad trade.

That was in response to 622.

[Alianna]

It is a good point though. If happy lolhammers this after 471, we just vote them. 1 for 1 isn't a bad trade.

You're basically giving them a freebie when they're about to go down anyway

As opposed to the normal freebie of claiming a PR and forcing a cc?

Exactly that.

[Alianna]

happy, that's not going to end well. Don't do it. Especially if you're town.
Can you just claim please?

[Alianna]

And why would that be?

[Alianna]

I'm not about to hammer you, but Mislim likely will. If you're PR, it's better for you to live and get the chance to use your ability (and even if you die, that's info) than it is for you to get hammered.
If you're VT, it should be obvious why your claim isn't the end of the world.

[Alianna]

happy, seriously.

[Alianna]

If you are PR here, you need to claim so that you live and so that your role can help the town. Don't just resign yourself because you don't like how you've played.

[Alianna]

@Mislim - I've seen something very similar from a town PR, actually. Either way, a claim is beneficial.

[Alianna]

Four. Entire. Pages. Of Mislim and Python arguing. Dear god.

Spoiler: Quotes and comments

VOTE: Mislim Bait

Since I bothered re-reading your ISO last night, you mind explaining why after me putting eektor at E-1 in 616 you decided to keep your intent on happy before they even posted anything instead of telling happy to declare intent on eektor when you considered happy thread-spewed and were scumreading eektor for basically the entire day?

Idk about this.
Mislim said they couldn't see happy as having town motivation in 533 and didn't give any indication of TRing them after that. I do wonder what happened to that eektor read though.

If you're reading my isos right then you should notice that the one about happy being threadspewed was a read I made pretty early when I have just read a few pages while catching up.

Then explain why you scumread Mint for sring happy?

And so far to me it looks like you've been pretty chill attacking happy who's like a punching bad that won't fight back.

Like that's not a post you make if you actually sr happy

Can i get a definition on TMI in the context you 2 are using it, i literally don't think it means Too much information, and if it does, i think you guys are losing me real hard.

I'm saying Mislim knew happy was town because they're scum which is why they slipped in posts like

Like how do you go through with a happy elim after posting stuff like this:

This whole thing with python pushing for people to vote happy is giving me serious bad vibes tbh
like they called happy chaotic town and defended them earlier that policy limming them d1 is bad and to poe them midgame is more optimal
then they unvoted eektor calling the wagons dadv
now they're pushing to policy happy d1 after being in an off wagon on alianna

And so far to me it looks like you've been pretty chill attacking happy who's like a punching bad that won't fight back.

When they were supposedly sring happy at those times. This then further developed here into taking an hour and a half to explain why they sr'd happy enough to hammer them over eektor who they sr'd throughout the entirety of d1. Reason that's significant to me is because I think they legitimately didn't have a reason made up for the happy hammer until now and assumed the general consensus "happy sus" that everyone else had would have let them slip under the radar and then had to scramble for a reason in real time and that took them a while

I can see that being a slip on Mislim's part.
Other side of it, though, is that in a short span of time, Python scumread Mislim for keeping intent to hammer on happy,

who they considered thread-spewed

, and also for scumreading Mint for scumreading happy,

who they scumread.

I know that's a bit simplified, the highlighted part is what matters. Mislim clearly didn't scumread happy and consider them thread-spewed town at the same time. I suppose the SR on Mint was a few pages before the intent, but reading back, I see no indication that Mislim's read of happy went up between those posts.
Mislim's defense of it in 700 isn't great though.

Also ???? wdym you never said happy was trolling

Trolling aside you think that happy isn't being anti town?

Hmm...

Again I don't understand this post
I never thought happy was trolling and I never said that

Then justify how you think happy's posting can come from scum

Pretty manipulative of you asking me this now that we all know that happy is town

like you're whole case against me is so shit
you're only pushing me because I voted for happy who is a good elim regardless of their alignment
you talked about thunderdome but you dont even have a case that holds water

As contradictory as Python's case is, they make a couple of decent points. It's definitely more than just that you voted for happy.

Also ???? wdym you never said happy was trolling

Trolling aside you think that happy isn't being anti town?

LMAO

just get this guy out please

Stalling response?

d1 especially I don't mind people having different reads than me

as long as it makes sense for them to have those reads

; clark put happy at E-1 for pressure and got a read on Alianna from it so it's good enough for me to focus on other people for the day

so this is a lie

If you can't justify your read it doesn't make sense for you to have it

This does look like a misrep by Mislim and a distraction from Python's question. The reason to hammer happy actually was lacking/not well-explained so I think it was fair of them to ask for explanation.

Not everything. Just some posts I thought were worth commenting on.

Four. Entire. Pages. Of both sides contradicting themselves.
I can see the SvS theory. At the very least, I think this is a fight that's meant to look like a TvT rather than an actual TvT. That could mean one is scum, could mean both. I'd be willing to vote for either.

[Alianna]

And here's a question for everyone- why do you think Mint was killed last night? I think he was a very interesting choice.

Actually no you raise a good point, if there were several possible obvtown kills I could see happening why was the obvtown with basically 0 reads outside of happy who just got limmed killed instead of someone like Jason/Drew/Merlyn who all have somewhat developed views on the thread?

Mint feels like a bit of a low-info kill, despite being obvtown.
Maybe, since they were primarily scumreading happy, scum wanted to take them out before they could re-evaluate, which they'd have to do. It gives less info and is less potentially incriminating than killing a player who has those developed views.

[Alianna]

Actually no you raise a good point, if there were several possible obvtown kills I could see happening why was the obvtown with basically 0 reads outside of happy who just got limmed killed instead of someone like Jason/Drew/Merlyn who all have somewhat developed views on the thread?

Like with Mint I'd expect a newbie to be worse at scum hunting compared to like Drew (Even though he's shooting 0/2 so far, so sad) or Jason so what reads do they have wrong that'll cause more mislims over keeping Mint alive?

Also most agreed that Mint was here, but not really doing anything. Since replacements no one was really overly lurky, so makes sense to kill the person where not much analysis can happen and hope you hit a PR.

Kinda makes me feel eektor isn't scum, feel like a newer player would kill between who they view as more experienced, since they were almost limmed.

scum!eektor has a partner, so both scum would have to be new for that to apply.

[Alianna]

I don't know what kind of a response you want to 781. It's basically a summary of the entire 1v1. I guess I can look at it and see if there's anything there I haven't talked about that's worth commenting on?

[Alianna]

Why do you want people to take sides? What's wrong with the NK analysis?

[Alianna]

Yeah, I don't want to re-read the entire 1v1 right now. Pretty much, both of you are scummy and I agree that both of you shouldn't live to ELo.

[Alianna]

Guess I'll vote here.

VOTE: Mislim Bait

[Alianna]

I don't recall having ever called Clark scummy.

[Alianna]

@Mislim - I wasn't a sub, and I didn't scumread Python either before today. I am voting you because I think the 1v1 revealed contradictions from both you and Python and made both of you look scummy. There isn't a specific reason I picked you over Python, and I could change that, I just wanted to have a vote down on one of you.

[Alianna]

I'd also like an answer to why you want people to take sides on the 1v1. Feels a little ulterior-motivey to me.

[Alianna]

@Mislim - I wasn't a sub, and I didn't scumread Python either before today. I am voting you because I think the 1v1 revealed contradictions from both you and Python and made both of you look scummy. There isn't a specific reason I picked you over Python, and I could change that, I just wanted to have a vote down on one of you.

If your reason for voting me is just because of the whole 1v1 then you have to be more specific

I did selectively comment on some posts in 819, but you might not have seen them because they're in a spoiler. I don't like to bloat the thread with long multiquotes.
I might re-read the 1v1 with fresh eyes tomorrow or the day after though.

[Alianna]

Like if you think that me and python are SvS wouldnt it be better for us when people ignore it?

tell me whats the ulterior motive here of pointing fingers back at ourselves if we're just doing theatre

"Ulterior-motivey" was referring more to the vibe of that comment.
There's absolutely an incentive to do scum theatre like that, though. The point of it is to make it look as if you couldn't possibly be a scumpair, so that if/when one of you flips, the town writes off the possibility of it being the other.

[Alianna]

Was just going to come in and say it feels like we all forgot about eektor. I don't get why people think they're town.

[Alianna]

You know what, there's something else I noticed reading this all back: there's an idea out that a lot of people think the python v mislim fight was SvS, but I have only heard one person say that (Alianna) and one person float it as an idea but not say they've decided yet (Jason). I have flat out said I DON'T think it was SvS.

P-Edit: I'm leaning towards Alianna- I'll get a readslist up today.

• Python - SvT
  
• Mislim Bait - SvT
  
  
• Merlyn - not SvS
  
• eektor - not SvS (TR on Python)
  
  
• Jason - SvS?
  
• Alianna - SvS
  
  
• Drew - Hasn't commented on it yet

Half the people who aren't in the thunderdome who commented on it think there's a real chance of SvS, I don't see why you think this perception of the thread is weird

I never said it was definitively SvS, actually. I said I thought there was scum in there and that it could be one or both.

[Alianna]

One thing to consider if we do that though is whether people should hypo cop/tracker/jailkeeper results, since it's unlikely that they survive long enough to post their info. In that case being able to clearly tell what their results are makes ELO easier and the people giving cover have an easier time keeping to it since the focus'll be on Mislim/Python

Err for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, I'm proposing that everyone post something like:

• If I was cop, I got a green check on happy
  
• If I was tracker, happy went nowhere n1
  
• If I was jailkeeper, I jailkept happy n1

(though obviously don't do this until we agree on it)

The pro is that it makes it really simple to figure out a PRs results in case they flip and can also provide weak "cop hunt clear"s

(Since scum have to kill PRs to not be mechanically locked out of the game, if we have the case of Player A (VT) hypoing a green result on Player B and Player A dies then Player B is probably town. This is because if Player C (VT) gives a green result on Player D (Scum) then scum knows Player C is VT and exclude them from the PR pool they need to be shooting in, meaning that Player A gave a result that makes sense in Player D's world)

The con is that it normally makes it easier for people to slip up and show they're VT (since if you give a green hypo that person has to stay at the top of your readslist until the real PR comes out, same with bottom of the readslist for a red hypo) but in this gamestate I think everyone should be able to keep cover

I'm down to do this if we want.

[Alianna]

Also current d2 prediction: Both scum will put Alianna in the "will settle" pool, Alianna gets compromise limmed and flips green, and we'll still be stuck with this 1v1

If you're predicting that she flips green, she really shouldn't be in your limpool. You can't think of 1 more person that makes your top three lists of suspects that you won't predict is likely town, it's just definitely mislim and drew?

Not just that, but Python said they'd settle, like, three posts before that.

[Alianna]

Merlyn is so obvtown but I'll never trust her again.

[Alianna]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "will settle"?

[Alianna]

That's exactly what you said you would do and what you said you thought both scum were going to do though.

[Alianna]

Yeah nvm I get what you mean. And yes, I did miss that part.

[Alianna]

I wanted to push Python because of Fire and Ice, and thought I could use specifics from that game because I thought their case on me in that game was just scum pushing town for a dumb reason, which I thought I saw Python doing to Mislim here.

But when I read that Python actually was scum reading me in that game I was like 'lets see how they react if I still push him using a bit of flawed logic'. Definitely was a bit of a drunken Drew idea lol, but thought it might be funand their reaction was more calm and logical then I expected, since I was scum reading them. I expected scumPython to really come at me harder. And while I don't agree with them about Mislim, I don't think they are scum either.

Also, thought I read Aliana was at E-1

Are you...and I mean this in the nicest possible way, Drew...drunk right now? Because that post was bonkers. I don't know what I think of it. I mean, I'll start with why Alianna, when the last thing you (very recently!) said about her was 'not feeling good but not enough info' and now thought you were about to hammer her?

PoE mainly, I can't really think of anyone else to be scummy enough to vote for, and yes I would like to hear more from her, but she seems to be ignoring this game and we do seem to be going in circles here.

And fine Python, I could see you or mislim as a buddy(I know I know, I just said you both are town). But there is a world where one of you is trying to muddy things up to hide the fact that Aliana is being lurky. The one post if you saying that you would settle on Aliana pinged me a bit in that regard.

But neither one of those associatives are very strong

Also, not currently drunk haha

Pre Edit: Eektor would be an interesting buddy, could be instructed to lay low and let town fight each other

I just don't have the mental energy for this game, all the hyperposting and talking in circles has been hard to follow.
I'm mostly here because I know Kanin and he wanted to get into mafia, but that didn't exactly work out.

Why are you opposed to an eektor lim though? The only real reason you gave iirc was the NK, but they've got a partner.

[Alianna]

I just don't have the mental energy for this game, all the hyperposting and talking in circles has been hard to follow.
I'm mostly here because I know Kanin and he wanted to get into mafia, but that didn't exactly work out.

Why are you opposed to an eektor lim though? The only real reason you gave iirc was the NK, but they've got a partner.

That's a bummer, bc I enjoyed playing with you however briefly in terrieresque. I also didn't know that about Kanin, why did you guys never mention it?

It just never came up.

Ultimately, though, if you're town I wish you would show up more. It really only hurts town when someone sticks around but doesn't play a lot bc then there's not much to go on with them.

I'm here now if you have any questions for me.

[Alianna]

I mean, it's kind of all in the post. I would have, but I figured the thread would probably want to wait until after the replacement.

[Alianna]

In retrospect, I probably should have hammered lol.

[Alianna]

I suppose that's one way to look at it. I didn't make that post with any hidden motives though.

[Alianna]

I can't say I have a good reason, other than "I forgor." Let me just change that.

VOTE: eektor

[Alianna]

I was going to make one but you beat me to it.

[Alianna]

[Alianna]

I've been WIFOMing over Drew's slot for the last hour, but I'm leaning town.
What's the scum thought process behind posting that readslist with Python as his only real SR (899), pushing them with that test, and then just...absolving them? I don't see it. That whole progression makes more sense as genuine town sorting imo.

Spoiler: the quotes for easy reference

I really feel it is scumPythin here, but don't want to be influenced by emotions from another game where they were scum, so will let it stew a bit.

But my as promised my reads, in tier form, are:

Won't elim today:
Merlyn
eektor

Won't elim, but tinfoil could say otherwise:
Jason
Miselim

The need more info from Aliana, but not feeling too good about her tier:
Aliana

Fool me once:
Python

Again as I said in my little recap, I saw scumPython say a similar thing in Fire and Ice in regards to me supposedly defending another player(not an exact comparison, but the tone and wording was the same).

I went and looked this game up, and I haven't read it all cause it's like 80 pages but it seemed kind of a weird game to do meta on Python with? Like they were attacked so much by a really rude guy that they replaced out in frustration. So not only were they probably not playing the way they normally do, they weren't in the game to completion.

Before all that, they came after me. I will try to find specifically what I am referencing.

Post Edit: Have decided my role based off another player not really commenting on my slot.

Hey python, I interacted with Furt now, so they can't be my scum buddy right?

Can we swap the Bulge/Drew scumteam wagon from Bulge to Drew? This is not townie behaviour:

• Drew tr's Bulge in 534
  
• Drew/Bulge solve gets pushed with a Bulge wagon
  
• Drew starts defending
  himself

If you actually tr Bulge you should be defending Bulge as the town you think they are because Bulge flipping town puts you at 0 risk of getting wagoned, why are you putting all your effort to discredit the Bulge/Drew connection instead?

VOTE: Drew

-A

This is the best post to from that game to illustrate what I mean(there is a whole string of posts similar in vain).

ScumPython here is saying that town should act a certain way, and if they are not acting in the way they believe.....must mean scum.

The same flawed logic I am seeing here.

I didn't really comment on Mislim because the came off as way more towny then you Python, so I more focused on your scumminess.

And it doesn't matter that Fire and Ice was multiball, you are imploring very similar tactics as you did as scumPython did in that game.

Even this move putting yourself up for possible elim is similar to your little gambit in Fire and Ice where you said you would be fine to get limmed if I(or Bulge) didn't flip scum.

Tonally, you are almost identical.

I would prefer Python goes, but I can settle for Aliana.

Congrats you passed the test, thanks for participating Python.

I feel confident it is TvT.

I intend to hammer Aliana.

I wanted to push Python because of Fire and Ice, and thought I could use specifics from that game because I thought their case on me in that game was just scum pushing town for a dumb reason, which I thought I saw Python doing to Mislim here.

But when I read that Python actually was scum reading me in that game I was like 'lets see how they react if I still push him using a bit of flawed logic'. Definitely was a bit of a drunken Drew idea lol, but thought it might be funand their reaction was more calm and logical then I expected, since I was scum reading them. I expected scumPython to really come at me harder. And while I don't agree with them about Mislim, I don't think they are scum either.

Also, thought I read Aliana was at E-1

[Alianna]

The idea of Jason/eektor popped into my head and somehow I don't totally hate it.

[Alianna]

I haven't done the reading to back that up though. I'll follow up tomorrow.

[Alianna]

The idea of Jason/eektor popped into my head and somehow I don't totally hate it.

Update: I hate it. Tinfoil go brr.

I'm still suspicious of eektor, but I have no objections to Mislim getting executed today.

[Alianna]

Is that a CC?

[Alianna]

Easy, what team that includes Python doesn't have Python run the kill?

And why with this information would Mislim keep this day going into a 1v1?

And as i explained in 2118, Tracker is the scum claim you make in like every setup.

idk like maybe with you?

Hear me out if the scum PR is just gonna do the night action anyway why not make him do the kill too?
2 Scums doing 2 different actions in one night just makes it likely for scum to get caught by tracker

Scum visiting someone other than the NK could theoretically get away with a PR claim though, at least for a day.

[Alianna]

Hell here is a list of the teams just FYI;

usesPython - Merlyn
usesPython - eektor
usesPython - Mislim Bait
usesPython - JasonWazza
usesPython - Alianna
usesPython - Doctor Drew

You tell me in which of these possible teams, Python isn't running the kill, like seriously.

P-Edit; And you didn't reconsider that read at all because?

Maybe in Python/Merlyn, but I'm not really sus of Merlyn.
That's...actually a good point. I am tempted to hammer.

[Alianna]

They can get a PR outed and executed though.

[Alianna]

sure it's not 100%, but again, what team with Python doesn't have Python run something?

Because you aren't even considering that Python could be the Roleblocker/Rolecop at all are you?

And Python visiting the kill isn't even an instant outing because;

Friendly Neighbor.
Being Roleblocked.

What do you mean about the roleblock?
If Python were seen visiting the kill, that would mean neither they nor the tracker were roleblocked.

[Alianna]

Best course of action is probably to wait for Python to weigh in before we execute anyone.

[Alianna]

I'll admit that my head hasn't been in the game as of late, but I've given the Mislim claim some actual thought and I've changed my mind. I don't see a good reason why scum!them would claim the result specifically on Python. It's highly counterintuitive to claim a clearing result on a player you're hardpushing, even though a tracker "no visit" isn't a 100% clear. Yes, it's also counterintuitive to hardpush a player you have a semi-clearing result on, but I think scum care more about that kind of consistency than town do. Mislim's claim is also one that draws unnecessary attention if they're scum.
Scum!Mislim in C could just fake roleblocked and pretend to be in column A, provided they knew that "no visit" means their target went nowhere and "no result" means their action failed (and they could easily ask). It might even be the smartest play if they weren't the one who killed, given that they'd have no way to know if they were jailed.
In B, it's a little more complicated, as they have to try not to claim it on a PR, but they should still have a rolecop result to help them out. If they are the rolecop and were jailed, then they just claim "no result." Worst case scenario for them is that either their partner is rolecop and was jailed or that they have a vanilla check on Python.
They still get CCed 2/3 of the time in either column though.
Either way, I think most scum players are concerned enough with having a consistent story that they wouldn't make that claim, and I don't see a situation where Mislim would be forced to resort to it. It's just bad strategy in the vast majority of scenarios, and I think it's relatively easy for a scum player to see that. Occam's Razor says town. Any bloodthirsty comments I made about hammering are withdrawn.

[Alianna]

In B, it's a little more complicated, as they have to try not to claim it on a PR, but they should still have a rolecop result to help them out. If they are the rolecop and were jailed, then they just claim "no result."

If they claim no result in Column B they instantly get cc'd by FN (or worse for scum!Mislim, someone visited by FN) instead of possibly surviving until massclaim, if they knew they were roleblocked (Since being roleblocked implies JK/FN game) they'd be claiming Jailkeeper to force a Jailkeeper cc or Tracker with results to force either a Jailkeeper cc or a 1v1 in ELO with a Jailkeeper who didn't cc them earlier

True, forgot about that.

[Alianna]

True, forgot about that.

You scumread eektor, what do you think about them not hammering Mislim here when Jason put them back to E-1 and then just letting their scum buddy fight it out in 3p ELO?

I can't say I townread them for it, as they could easily have forgotten or just not realized that they should hammer, but I do see your point. They can go in the nullbin for now.

[Alianna]

I never said you should be clearing me for it. Did I imply that?

[Alianna]

I believe Mislim and I'm fine with hypoclaims if we want to do that.

Why specifically 1088?

[Alianna]

UNVOTE: Doctor Drew[/vote]

Merlyn, could you elaborate on this unvote?

[Alianna]

Just jailkeeper and friendly neighbour. Those and doctor are the only two roles that could exist at this point, and there's no point to doctor hypoclaims because they only give info if they get a successful protection and they're probably on the tracker anyway.

[Alianna]

^

[Alianna]

Yeah, the main reason I find Drew scummy was bc of his odd test thing of python, but the only reason I can think scum!Drew would do it was to take heat off mislim. Mislims claim is probably true.

I think Mislims claim can be true, but I still think there is a possibility it is fake. With no counter claims, there is still a possibility that they lucked out and could not be countered. I see that for B2 and C2. I just find it hard to believe with the information Mislim got that python went nowhere that he would be so willing to not even budge on python. Merlyn and I started an Alianna wagon, which I was surprised he didn't join or moved on that when he saw that no one was willing to vote python.

Then if Mislim is really the tracker and is town. Then what are the odds that python is scum. I still don't see python as scum in that situation. So, then I would think that scum would have no problem jumping on the 1v1. Alianna jumped first without much thought and Jason joined Alianna.

So, if i go with Mislim is fake claiming. I think Dr. Drew is the best chance of being his partner and being scum. If I think he is correctly claiming, I see Alianna as scum and I think Merlyn can be her partner.

Can you clarify what you meant by jumping on the 1v1? If you meant jumping on the Mislim wagon, yes, but it was actually me who jumped onto Jason's theory about Mislim/Python being potentially SvS.

Spoiler: quotes

I think I get why this is so hard to read, Python snipping all context out of posts is frankly annoying as hell, and i literally feel the need to click on every single post they quote, because context stripped they sound awful, context re-added they seem fine.

And it's not like there isn't posts of Mislim's that aren't bad enough to use as a case.

It almost feels like a SvS scenario that is trying to get town to split them up by saying it's TvT and I really can't shake that feeling (as either of them could have made cases that include stuff from outside this day, but instead focused on literally only what the other said directly to them right now).

No offense, after what happened yesterday, i'm gonna sit on my vote for a bit longer then normal.

P-Edit: because it's a thunderdome and when one flips scum, the other is town for thunderdoming.

Yeah but in your SvS world the only way I become town is by flipping Mislim and the only way Mislim becomes town is by flipping me, why would we both be making weak cases instead of having say one weak and one strong case with the intention of having the strong case be the one that goes through

It almost feels like a SvS scenario that is trying to get town to split them up by saying it's TvT

Not to mention, why as Town would you not present a strong case?

Scum reasoning is that they don't want to actually lim that person, but Town reasoning for making a weak case doesn't really exist.

---

Like in a Python/Mislim game neither of us were at real risk today because we'd be able to push through an eektor lim into an Alianna? lim. What's the point of thunderdoming d2 and then having to explain why the thunderdomer is still alive by 3p ELO d4?

And you use this exact reason as to why you were left alive to 3P ELO d4, because you can't be confirmed at all.

Four. Entire. Pages. Of Mislim and Python arguing. Dear god.

Spoiler: Quotes and comments

VOTE: Mislim Bait

Since I bothered re-reading your ISO last night, you mind explaining why after me putting eektor at E-1 in 616 you decided to keep your intent on happy before they even posted anything instead of telling happy to declare intent on eektor when you considered happy thread-spewed and were scumreading eektor for basically the entire day?

Idk about this.
Mislim said they couldn't see happy as having town motivation in 533 and didn't give any indication of TRing them after that. I do wonder what happened to that eektor read though.

If you're reading my isos right then you should notice that the one about happy being threadspewed was a read I made pretty early when I have just read a few pages while catching up.

Then explain why you scumread Mint for sring happy?

And so far to me it looks like you've been pretty chill attacking happy who's like a punching bad that won't fight back.

Like that's not a post you make if you actually sr happy

Can i get a definition on TMI in the context you 2 are using it, i literally don't think it means Too much information, and if it does, i think you guys are losing me real hard.

I'm saying Mislim knew happy was town because they're scum which is why they slipped in posts like

Like how do you go through with a happy elim after posting stuff like this:

This whole thing with python pushing for people to vote happy is giving me serious bad vibes tbh
like they called happy chaotic town and defended them earlier that policy limming them d1 is bad and to poe them midgame is more optimal
then they unvoted eektor calling the wagons dadv
now they're pushing to policy happy d1 after being in an off wagon on alianna

And so far to me it looks like you've been pretty chill attacking happy who's like a punching bad that won't fight back.

When they were supposedly sring happy at those times. This then further developed here into taking an hour and a half to explain why they sr'd happy enough to hammer them over eektor who they sr'd throughout the entirety of d1. Reason that's significant to me is because I think they legitimately didn't have a reason made up for the happy hammer until now and assumed the general consensus "happy sus" that everyone else had would have let them slip under the radar and then had to scramble for a reason in real time and that took them a while

I can see that being a slip on Mislim's part.
Other side of it, though, is that in a short span of time, Python scumread Mislim for keeping intent to hammer on happy,

who they considered thread-spewed

, and also for scumreading Mint for scumreading happy,

who they scumread.

I know that's a bit simplified, the highlighted part is what matters. Mislim clearly didn't scumread happy and consider them thread-spewed town at the same time. I suppose the SR on Mint was a few pages before the intent, but reading back, I see no indication that Mislim's read of happy went up between those posts.
Mislim's defense of it in 700 isn't great though.

Also ???? wdym you never said happy was trolling

Trolling aside you think that happy isn't being anti town?

Hmm...

Again I don't understand this post
I never thought happy was trolling and I never said that

Then justify how you think happy's posting can come from scum

Pretty manipulative of you asking me this now that we all know that happy is town

like you're whole case against me is so shit
you're only pushing me because I voted for happy who is a good elim regardless of their alignment
you talked about thunderdome but you dont even have a case that holds water

As contradictory as Python's case is, they make a couple of decent points. It's definitely more than just that you voted for happy.

Also ???? wdym you never said happy was trolling

Trolling aside you think that happy isn't being anti town?

LMAO

just get this guy out please

Stalling response?

d1 especially I don't mind people having different reads than me

as long as it makes sense for them to have those reads

; clark put happy at E-1 for pressure and got a read on Alianna from it so it's good enough for me to focus on other people for the day

so this is a lie

If you can't justify your read it doesn't make sense for you to have it

This does look like a misrep by Mislim and a distraction from Python's question. The reason to hammer happy actually was lacking/not well-explained so I think it was fair of them to ask for explanation.

Not everything. Just some posts I thought were worth commenting on.

Four. Entire. Pages. Of both sides contradicting themselves.

I can see the SvS theory.

At the very least, I think this is a fight that's meant to look like a TvT rather than an actual TvT. That could mean one is scum, could mean both. I'd be willing to vote for either.

[Alianna]

If I'm jailkeeper, I targeted Merlyn N1.
If I'm friendly neighbour, I targeted Mint N1 and will target Merlyn N2.

[Alianna]

Drew is off-the-charts scummy, but I get the vibe he's about to be our second mislim.

[Alianna]

I'm going to go re-read and try to figure out how much I'm tinfoiling.

[Alianna]

Thanks, was about to do that.

[Alianna]

I saw it in 1152.

[Alianna]

I don't think I would have come out with it like that, but I guess you were probably getting run up anyway.

[Alianna]

I figured it out.

[Alianna]

So, would anyone like to come out as mislim #3, or tell us they exist?

[Alianna]

If anyone's been visited by a friendly neighbour, claim it. If you are the friendly neighbour and your visit wouldn't have been seen for whatever reason, claim it.
Mind you, we did hypoclaims so FN will be pretty obvious if they exist anyway.

[Alianna]

So if both PR claims are legit, possible scumteams look like this:

Python/Merlyn
Python/Jason
Python/Alianna

Merlyn/eektor
Merlyn/Jason
Merlyn/Alianna

eektor/Jason
eektor/Alianna

Jason/Alianna

(Python/eektor isn't on there because Python no visit + eektor jailed isn't consistent with Mint dying)

[Alianna]

From my POV, the team is one of Python/Merlyn, Python/Jason, Merlyn/eektor, Merlyn/Jason, or eektor/Jason. Haven't done too much partner hunting, but I did establish that eektor/Jason is big tinfoil, so...Merlyn, explain yourself.

[Alianna]

Am I right in thinking that makes the odds of python or eektor scum lower than me, Jason, and Alianna?

You are correct.

[Alianna]

From my POV, the team is one of Python/Merlyn, Python/Jason, Merlyn/eektor, Merlyn/Jason, or eektor/Jason. Haven't done too much partner hunting, but I did establish that eektor/Jason is big tinfoil, so...Merlyn, explain yourself.

*unless Mislim is fake.

[Alianna]

eektor was jailed, though, so their FN visit would have been blocked if they are.

[Alianna]

Executing me brings my jester winrate up to 60%.

[Alianna]

You're first though XD.

VOTE: Merlyn

[Alianna]

*assuming eektor doesn't counterclaim

[Alianna]

I

really

hope we're not both town here.

[Alianna]

It's enough time for a CC if there is one.

[Alianna]

If eektor claims FN, I feel pretty confident in 1v1ing them and Mislim.

[Alianna]

Doc is confirmed now because we don’t have a CC.

[Alianna]

VOTE: eektor I'm not going against my two trs for the argument in 1382
This is e-1

Merlyn, that is not E-1.

[Alianna]

Lol this had better flip scum.

[Alianna]

UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

[Alianna]

Please tell me one of you is somehow secretly a tracker who's been hiding in the shadows all along.

[Alianna]

Because that's probably the only way we win this.

[Alianna]

Hmm, what's the chance Merlyn fakes an accidental quickhammer like that as scum?
And what's the chance she actually accidentally quickhammers like that as scum?
Feel like scum would be more careful there.
But I'm nowhere near the point of voting.

[Alianna]

Pagetop.

[Alianna]

Well, dang it. Expected though.
GG everyone, thanks for modding Marashu!

[Alianna]

I have to say this game was so frustrating in how everyone was scum reading me.

Yeah, sorry if I frustrated you. 'Tis the way the game goes sometimes.

[Alianna]

Drew! Can't wait to play with you in a game again, you're just awesome.

Seconding, Doc is awesome. (and so are you! )
You can sign up for this one with both of us if you want! Warning you the setup is a little chaotic though.

[Alianna]

And Aliana, one day I will learn not to always scum read you

Drew! Can't wait to play with you in a game again, you're just awesome.

Seconding, Doc is awesome. (and so are you! )
You can sign up for this one with both of us if you want! Warning you the setup is a little chaotic though.

Alianna you're a blast to play with! Maybe next time I can recognize when we're on the same team lol.

I'm under a curse of suspicion XD. Something about me is just very mislimmable.

.....and one day I will remember to spell your name correctly everytime.

One day.