Newbie 2122: DRAGONS! | Game Over

[Deltabreedy]

Right-o.

43 pages is a lot to catch up on.

Can I get people to catch me up on major themes of the game so far, things I should look out for and that?
I saw Black being friendly with Shea/Aureal and then it got a bit aggy, but beyond that is there anything I should focus in on before I get cracking?

UNVOTE: Whoever my slot was voting

I see Patch is at -1. What's the case on them in brief?

[Deltabreedy]

@Happy
Why do you care what my opinion is of you and leek specifically?

Its the first thing you prioritise - bit quirky.

[Deltabreedy]

@Happy & Leek, both of you give me 1 or 2 lines on what the craic is between you both?

It's getting towards nighttime for me atm, so would be good to have abridged things to skim through so that I can get caught up and some discussion in nice and quick before we have only 24 hours left.

@Mew, Mint, Merlyn, Black - same for you with the Patch wagon. 1-liner on why cheers

[Deltabreedy]

Yes, but I want to be fully caught up and contributing in the next 24 hours, so catching up and being useful is made easier by having people summarise key parts of the discussion so far.

Cheers!

[Deltabreedy]

@Happy
@Leek

Do either of you TR Patch?

[Deltabreedy]

I mean

Are they?

You're intimating to me here that you're not going to vote for a scumread at L-1. Not to influence your vote without having caught up but it reads more as you stalling a wagon. Happy's reaction felt kind of okay to me and there's evidence of scumhunting. I'm not currently seeing that from you, Leek?

And Happy, whilst the meltdown is a thing and I'm not in a position to critique it - I dont see your case on Leek tbh. Like you're just calling out things they say and assigning numbers to them as well as chatting about what I can only describe generously as non-gameplay-related content, it's not like you're currently adding much to the gamestate.

[Deltabreedy]

Why exactly -do- you SR Patch?

[Deltabreedy]

Also, after a brief ISO what's the craic with your Mew read?

Keen on a readslist from you if that'd be okay?

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah nah please don't troll though.

[Deltabreedy]

Hi Patch, I'm JZ

[Deltabreedy]

Also they did give a lot of maybes, but they also gave you an answer.

[Deltabreedy]

I mean I hate the usage of self-referential meta so like

I get it

, but I also (and I'm about to use meta, get ready folks) get the vibe that Patch plays off the back of a lot of emotion like me - how they feel about things informs their scumreads and how they look to solve so I get the vibes that this frustration is genuine and I don't think Patch is scum based solely off this.

I think the associatives between Leek and Patch are quirky. Why is Leek SR'ing Patch heavily but keeping them around for 'content'? It's weird, wouldn't you rather lim an SR?

I'm in two minds over a Patch lim because the vibes aren't there but then I also agree with the notion it would bring in a lot of information.

I am keen on understanding the game in full first before committing myself, and I'd additionally appreciate no hammers for like 24 hours or so at least.

[Deltabreedy]

Don't tell me what to do. 'For real'.

[Deltabreedy]

I'd appreciate a rebuttal of my points, but being a dick isn't likely to be the most effective way of convincing me of your points now is it?

[Deltabreedy]

@Smarzleek:

I'm finding it real suspect that you've arguing heavily and leaning on someone that you nailed-on think is scum, whilst simultaneously pushing a nothing-wagon and failing to hammer a scumread.

You have a lot of maybes, patch. It's more difficult for scum to claim someone is scum.

It's quite clear that you have a strong scumread on Patch, to the point where even when they fulfil your requests, you find something to back up your theory.

I don't particularly like Patch's play, lord knows we've clashed in the past but I get the vibes that this is genuine frustration coming from Town that's frustrated with confbias/throwing shade/lack of meaningful inter-player engagement, over Scum that is feigning an emotional defence.

--

My question is this: If you're so sure that Patch is scum, why haven't you declared intent to hammer?

- You haven't entertained the notion of hammering a

strong scumread

- Happy clearly isn't happening today, there's no sway in it but you're holding up the wagon
- Would you declare intent with 24 hours to go? 12? 6? 1? What's the limit at which hammering a scumread becomes more important than chasing a nothing-case?

Important to note that the above is questions only at present - not an invitation to action.

Ninja'd: Hi Patch! I'm keen on hearing your reads on Happy/Mew as well, but if you want to take an hour away, breathe and decompress before coming back, we're still a way aways from the deadline so I can chill for a bit.

[Deltabreedy]

'I'm not so sure about Patch'
'I intend to hammer'

VOTE: Szmarzleek

[Deltabreedy]

But you scumread them, right? Cause it's real weird that you didn't declare intent to hammer before Black unvoted. Like REAL weird.

[Deltabreedy]

Also hi Black!

[Deltabreedy]

Who fancies sheeping my half-caught up vote on Leek?

Show of hands, please.

--

But yeah, I'm typically the person involved but it'd be good if we could tone down the rhetoric. Mistakes made all sides (

not me, tee hee

) and let's just get on with things.

[Deltabreedy]

Mint. Thoughts on Leek's flipfloppiness?

They say they didn't see the unvote because they were writing but like - the forum has a neat feature where if someone posts before you click post it tells you so idk

[Deltabreedy]

The Patch wagon doesn't feel good to me and I'm inclined to suggest that with Black re-reading she may well agree, plus Leek hasn't painted themselves in a good light here.

I think Leek is more likely to go through today, and as a cherry on top I think is more likely to flip red.

If not, then we still learn a lot from who did and didn't transition from other wagons.

For me, it's the optimum play, and if nothing else it will at least cut noise from the game in terms of this back-and-forth arguing which is more ad homenim-y and aggressive than actually productive.

[Deltabreedy]

Ok

It was the last bit of a post about why I think you're the optimal play and then at the end there's the bonus of making us as a playerbase more cohesive and targeted in scumhunting.

Misrepresenting that as being the basis of my vote only reaffirms my desire to take you off the board.

[Deltabreedy]

Hey, it works for me!

I don't know mate, I think that's more for you to work out and convince me that someone else is today's lim. If you had a compelling case I'd listen.

Do you have one?

[Deltabreedy]

I asked you to provide a compelling case on Patch.

You instead doubled down on defending yourself.

What am I supposed to think? Help me help you here because you're digging a bit of a hole.

[Deltabreedy]

25 hours remaining. Patch will not be getting my vote today. I encourage votes on leek, personally.

@Leek:

The whole of your case seems to rest on Patch getting riled up emotionally, which is fed by you and the manner in which you've conducted yourself so far.

Do correct me if I'm wrong because I'd be misrepresenting you but if I'm telling you to convince me someone is scummier than you and you refuse, help me - how should I react to that?

Should I be thankful that you're not helping? Cause all I see is someone with 24 hours of (borrowed) time to go left in the game sticking their fingers in their ears and holding their breath to prove a point, and I would like to believe that you're better than that.

Manage my expectations - when can I expect a compelling case from you on Patch?

[Deltabreedy]

Your last 14 posts (more than 10% of your total) haven't said anything of value.

I think Patch has a point.

I wouldn't throw stones if I were you, people in glass houses and all that.

[Deltabreedy]

Patch honestly please chill out with telling Leek to go fuck themselves - you're getting super aggressive and personal. I get why, but it doesn't make it okay kind of thing and I would rather you deal with it yourself before someone comes in and deals with it for you if you get me?

Ninja'd: Uh

[Deltabreedy]

@Patch: What I wrote wasn't a slight on you, for context. There's ways and means of reacting and I really want you to be able to stay in the game. I understand that you were provoked and it's perfectly valid to be angry and upset, but it's not okay to be telling people to go fuck themselves as the sole purpose of several posts.

I want you to be able to stay and play and enjoy the game, so that's why I want you to feel like you can chill, if that makes sense.

[Deltabreedy]

I just really don't think Patch is today's lim.

@Aureal: Can you summarise this on Mew? I've not got a handle on that because I've been preoccupied with Happy/Leek/Patch.

[Deltabreedy]

Im off to bed but I'll have a look at this in the morning.

For me today it's between Leek and potentially Mew, we'll see if I see what you see.

How do you feel about Happy?

[Deltabreedy]

Why are you voting Happy whilst advocating for Mew? They're both pretty unlikely at this point - are you more inclined towards Happy than Mew?

[Deltabreedy]

I've caught up and I'm kind of down for a Mew wagon. They've coasted through the game, not really engaged in any kind of scumhunting, just throwing out reads and non-justified claims. Having fully caught up I'm inclined to say that because Leek/Patch both stalled at E-1 that they aren't scum. I mean others can tinfoil if they want and say they're both scum but I don't see it.

Patch was really limmable, off the back of vibes I don't think that many people would have been overly against a Patch lim 48 hours ago so it would have been quite easy for scum to hammer. Of course, it might be that they have a partner that was off the wagon and I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on this. I do get the sense that whilst there is a number of good reasons for a Patch lim that the wagon was started in bad faith so I'm inclined to move away from Leek/Patch.

You can also apply the survivalist attitude that is being used against Leek to Mew as well, since they've TR'd Leek basically all game but now want to lim them without any justification other than raw self-preservation.

UNVOTE: Leek
VOTE: Mew

[Deltabreedy]

Why do I think Happy tried to fake a township or hunt PRs out of the gate today

[Deltabreedy]

Lots to catch up on.

-I thought it was E-2 not E-1 so, sorry Mew I guess
-Happy wtf?
-not vibing with this Patch/Mint argument
-I was in V/LA from mid-Wednesday onwards.

More to follow when I finish work and get in front of a computer to properly tap out my thoughts

[Deltabreedy]

My kneejerk reaction is that Happy is scum - honestly this just comes off the back of vibes and that. I dont see a world in which Town!Happy pulls shit like that then softs a PR.

VOTE: Happy
E-1

[Deltabreedy]

WTF, happy. You're not likely going to fool the Mafia with this beating around the bush about tracker results. They know whether results are accurate or not. You're only going to confuse town.

From the JK confusion I'm thinking it's just a poorly thought out ploy, if not scum motivated. But if that really is a real tracker result, you should expect to be dead tonight anyway, so you need to clearly tell us so we can act on it.

hypo gone wrong lol
anyways...
I know who my scumpair are.

Cool - who? Cause you're voting Leek but you say this in D2 with a shitey soft/retract/softclaim and then you don't make clear who else this is.

How does this come from Town, why aren't you pushing hard on the two - why are you being so cryptic because it does absolutely nothing for us.

Either you're scum who slipped up on a crap gambit or you're town that seems to be deliberately working against our interests with some of the most wildly anti-town play.

I don't see a scenario where you don't leave the game today to be honest - I can't wrap my head around why you'd do any of this if you were town.

In spite of the fact that I don't think scum would do this because rationally it brings in too much attention, I don't see the town rationale for doing any of this either and it feels less likely to come from town than from scum, because scum could play the WIFOM game on it.

So yeah, pretty happy with a happy lim today.

[Deltabreedy]

Personally, I've been waiting to see what direction Delta was going to go.
Because I raised an eyebrow at his day one positions.
I really didn't like that surprise hammer.
I don't like at all that he has been so quiet day two- I haven't actually played with him before but I get the impression he's normally a hyper poster.
I think if he'd actually accidentally hammered he would have opened with some sort of mea culpa, not shrugged it off with minimal fanfare after I asked about it.
I think the fact that Black was the NK isn't a great look for him, because he'd be particularly wary of her catching onto him from past experience.
And I really don't care for how he's apparently going after the low hanging fruit in happy now, after letting half the day go by to see what sort of pushing might occur.

VOTE: Deltabreedy

Bad post.

I wasnt the only person that thought it was E-2.
Black has never sniffed me out to be scum, why would I be worried more about that than anything else?
Whats the point in 'apologising'? What happened, happened.
Happy's play is objectively scummy. Me finding it scummy, because it's objectively scummy, is somehow scummy.

Neat

[Deltabreedy]

I thought Mew was scum, I was wrong.

Sorry, would you like me to feign being apologetic, to make you feel better about me being wrong? No-ones kicking myself over it more than me - not even because it was a mislim but because I thought I was putting them at E-1.

The post you made there feels like you're forcing reads from kind of nothing.

Also I've been quiet because I was V/LA for two days, as I regularly am. If I was being quiet then I'd have copped a prod.

[Deltabreedy]

Ignoring things that are objectively scummy in favour of manufacturing an argument out of nothing really damages my TR of you - why do you need to fabricate an argument?

As it happens I arrived home in front of my computer able to tap out posts with regularity today, about 30 minutes ago. I do apologise that I haven't played mafia to your schedule.

[Deltabreedy]

Nice reaction. Answer my question?

[Deltabreedy]

That's what you focus on?

[Deltabreedy]

I said it was a bad post, because it was a bad post. Your arguments are based on nothing and honestly have no basis in truth - I don't really need to discredit them but I do love locking horns with people so:

-You're very deliberately playing the WIFOM game when trying to do this NKA. You're very focused at the tail end of the game and that does make sense - it was an unfortunate hammer. Here's two other people who were demonstrably unsure about the votecount:

I think Mew is at e-1

@Mew, I think you should claim

vc por favor

--

- I'm not concerned about anyone this game. Nice try though - if you read into my post history as much as you indicate you have, you'd also know that I place very very little faith in meta, especially self-referential meta.

- Your case on me feels like it's based on a lack of contrition post-hammer. What does it achieve if I say sorry to everyone for making a mistake that at the tail end of that arsehole of a day was pretty easy to make? Again, you're playing the WIFOM game and losing.

- Yeah, I think that the following is objectively scummy:
- Fakeclaiming
- Encouraging a Mass/Hypo claim
- Retracting
- Softclaiming
- Not adding to the game state
- Refusing to convince people of your scumread in favour of self-defence and then giving up.

Consider this my scumcase on Happy, btw

And if I didn't think it was a hammer, how could I possible consciously 'wander off' like no-one notices? It happened, dwelling on it attracts attention to me that is best placed elsewhere. Unfortuantely, being apologetic doesn't win us the game. It'd be pretty great if it did.

I still townread you, but you're really, really stretching with this argument.

---

And no, I didnt get testy or dismissive. I was surprised that your focus was first on a post that game after my own, when I would have thought that a response from someone you scumread would illicit a reaction before anything else. How am I suppose to know you're at work or what your schedule is? Daft thing to get aggy over tbh

[Deltabreedy]

How is Leek mechanically confirmed

[Deltabreedy]

You didn't mention the word trust once...

[Deltabreedy]

Out of interest - can you fully articulate why you suspect myself and Merlyn now, when yesterday you were super-duper convinced it's leek?

Cause you've softed, you've asked for a massclaim as part of what I can only imagine at this point is searching for a PR and now you're suspecting two people who are simply voting you with what seems to be very little justification.

So I'm curious what generated these reads.

[Deltabreedy]

So they disagree with you

Ok

[Deltabreedy]

I think Happy's referring to the hammer in D1, where I was one of three people who were unsure on the votecount.

[Deltabreedy]

I think Happy's referring to the hammer in D1, where I was one of three people who were unsure on the votecount.

Oh, that makes sense.

While I have you, could I get an answer to 1454/1423?

Sure - the softing and the ask for claims are two different things, albeit quite close together.

Let’s hypo
Tracker stay safe
If I’m tracker I got a red result on leek
Anyone else wanna counter that they got a green result from black?

Happy here suggests that there is a Tracker, then also drops 'If I'm Tracker'.
Why would Town!Happy think to do this? No benefit to claiming and exposing 2nd PR, there's also no benefit to the gambit that they pulled other than to draw out the 2nd PR.
Would PR!Happy do this? I mean, they themselves in their last few posts are confessing to trolling so I guess?
Would Scum!Happy do this? Sure! It makes a tonne of noise, it potentially draws out a PR and I would imagine that Happy is the goon, keeping their more powerful scummer safe.

oh yeah
my bad
we are confirmed to b in the b column
didn't see friendly neighbour can be paired with jailkepper
I'm blind
wdyn scum lol

So there is an intrinsic assumption that it was a Tracker, but Happy 'Forgot' that Jailkeeper was possible also. Again, since Town!Happy simply wouldn't or oughtn't do the whole thing - the 'mistake' feels quite backtracky. I did something similar in my only game with them where I was scum and they were town. It almost worked.

The only way this assumption is made is if Happy is committing to the bit in their Tracker soft, if they're actually Tracker or if they're scum. Ask yourself, does a Tracker come out the gate and immediately ask for a massclaim? Fuck no!

Well, I do have the guts to gambit.
Gambits are fun!

Conveniently, it was all a gambit! We can rest easy everyone, Happy was pulling a gambit!

To do what exactly? Eh, well it 'failed' so we'll never know!

part of me was going the baiting kill thought
part was the troll
and then there was the assumption that you guys would know what I was doing which did not work shrug

Does Town!Happy admit they we're trolling here?

Happy admits openly that they're trolling, Scum!Happy is aware of their meta and plays into this, believing that we'll let them off the hook.

--

Frankly, I'm up for limming Happy today and I can honestly, hand on heart say I don't care what alignment they are. Happy is supremely limmable - do we want someone that is this limmable, this easy to be drawn to as a vote in a Lim-Or-Lose situation?

Scum would.

Ninja'd:
@Aureal - I'll get to everything shortly but fuck you for trying to intimate I'm gaslighting anyone. That is such a fucking shitty comment.

[Deltabreedy]

Apologies for that reaction, I would appreciate you retracting that.

[Deltabreedy]

I think it's disgusting you'll throw terms like that around so easily.

Yeah, you're right - I jumped the gun. It's called a mistake not gaslighting. Bringing shit up like that to support your argument when a simple clarification of the facts is all was needed is condescending, horrible and transcends the boundaries of the game.

[Deltabreedy]

Sorry folks, I got super agitated at the gaslight comment for a few reasons that aren't to do with the game.

Wasn't appropriate for me to fly off the handle like that, I was red-mist posting and wasn't very fair on Aureal.

UNVOTE: Happy

[Deltabreedy]

I've not got a lot of energy after my little moment, committing some time to this now.

[Deltabreedy]

For me, the players are as follows:

Me

- Uh

Merlyn

- I find our opinions matching at times now so it feels good to TR them, coming at the game same way as me.

Happy

- I scumread them stupid-heavy coming into D2 and up until the claim. With no counter, I have to mechanically confirm them as town. I do think that the trolling and daft gambits have contributed in a way to us both forcing a claim from them and to us all losing a bit of interest in the game, although the latter is for each of us to really take blame for.

--

Mint

- Still struggling to get to grips with this slot. I don't find Mint's gameplay hugely alignment-indicative which kind of concerns me? #1403 kind of rubbed me the wrong way but I can't put my finger on why.

Aureal

- I think the push on me came in bad faith, which dropped them down my reads a bit. I think there is some gamesolving in there and I don't think they're scum but I am questioning what I thought was a TR previously.

--

Patch

- I wouldn't find the lim talk so scummy if it wasn't for the fact that Patch went on to cover off on why they wouldn't have killed Black over Mint. It felt a bit forced and to me it looks a bit like Patch explaining away that a Black lim wouldn't have done anything for them.

But it would - Black did mention that there would be a lot of information from a Patch flip that it probably would be advantageous to keep quiet since none of it was expanded upon - and as Patch has pointed out, Black did indicate a willingness to pursue Patch to this end.

Leek

- This is more vibes than anything else and it's mitigated to an extent by my current read of Patch - but certain posts don't strike me as being from a town mindset. #1213 for instance, in which there's a lack of willingness to 'grill me' and a pure focus on self-defence over working to find scum. I think that #1371 is a fake townslip as well.

At present, I think this is where I'm happiest.

VOTE: Szmarzleek

[Deltabreedy]

I mean, the role PMs are all on page one to read, so you're asking us to accept on faith that you didn't townslip through ignorance

[Deltabreedy]

I mean I appreciate that it's your first game - it'd be disrespectful of me to 'go easy' on you for faking a townslip since you're clearly pretty decent already.

I don't think it's a genuine townslip, I think your attitude D1 and D2 contributes more heavily than this anyway and it's telling now that you're focused on self-preservation and refuting my argument than convincing me of a lim on Patch.

Ninja'd: Appreciate you Patch - I hope you're feeling well now or soon, at least.

[Deltabreedy]

Happy, do feel free to drop the attitude.

[Deltabreedy]

@Happy:
That's not pushing anyone though it's -just- being a dick. It doesn't apply any pressure at all.

I want you to write a post for me. No moaning about being on a kindle or anything like that.

I want a few paragraphs, don't have to be huge, on why I should keep my vote on leek. Back it up with quotes and analysis rather than just childish, trollish jabs.

Who knows, you might convince some others to vote your top scumread as well! But snide jabs like above? Nope - that's not convincing anyone.

[Deltabreedy]

Can you justify that with anything?

Two of those are confirmed town. I think we've hit scum here but I don't see the value in that post.

[Deltabreedy]

In the unlikely event that Patch flips town, I don't know what I would think about Leek tbh.

[Deltabreedy]

Like was it all a bus, was it smoke and mirrors?

[Deltabreedy]

Idk, something to ponder.

[Deltabreedy]

Sooooo

[Deltabreedy]

nah, tell us who's scum, don't act like an grumpy old lady

then I'll go to the parking lot with you

You can fuck off with this.

[Deltabreedy]

And you might as well case me now Leek

[Deltabreedy]

Why are you so condescending?

My name isn't Tommy.

I will tell you to fuck off when you're being a bellend to other players in the game. Regardless of Patches alignment (and like you, I think they're flipping scum), you don't get to treat people like this.

Nothing to do with nerves - I'm asking you to be nice, and I think you probably owe Patch an apology in post.

[Deltabreedy]

If that's the bit you're focusing on then you need to invest some time in self-reflection. You've achieved the lim you wanted and you're still badgering Patch who frankly I think you've been awful to - which isn't part of the game. Instead of rising above the emotions of the players involved and the outbursts, you've made a concerted effort to goad people into reactions.

I think if Patch is scum then you're town, but god I'd love to remove you from the game. It'd be a much nicer D3.

Whatever, it's not my job to tell you how not to be a c*nt to others.

[Deltabreedy]

Nice one. I apologise if my language was a bit more forceful than is appropriate.

[Deltabreedy]

Having a fun time deciding whether or not to just report Leek's post.

I'm not scum. Do you seriously think that Patch would TR their partner and paint a target on them coming into D3? Whilst I find their style to be erratic - I don't think they're so bad at the game as to, at the death, say 'It's

definitely

not this guy! *Points*'. lt's significantly more likely that they buried their partner in their less green reads.

Seriously?

You're also prefacing your vote with the 'incorrect lim' marker - I don't think you actually have any conviction in your read. The reason I had my vote on Leek was because I believed in that read more.

Leek is acting like a PoS for that post but I don't think they're Patch's partner. If they are then idk what to think about the scumteam this game.

Aureal started a bum case on me yesterday from nowhere which is quirky, they abandoned it awful quick once it had no traction. Aureal, you also agree that it 'pretty much has' to be me, yet your vote hasn't gone on me.

Tbh I don't see it being Merlyn, I don't see it being Leek and I think this read from Mint comes out of absolutely nowhere - the question is, is it Aureal or Mint?

Both of them have come up with a fairly manufactured case, neither really seem convinced of their read but I think Aureal is biding time waiting for support to build before a lim.

VOTE: Aureal

I'll reread the game when I'm not on a phone, on a train, with WiFi powered by tiny wee hamsters.

Happy Birthday, StD

[Deltabreedy]

^
Seconded.

[Deltabreedy]

What a time to have a pagetop

[Deltabreedy]

Patch is NO LONGER IN THE GAME

[Deltabreedy]

No, once you die, you lose access to the scum thread, I think.

This is true.

I'll be honest I'm with Merlyn in wanting to say some things right now that would likely be inappropriate so I'm going to take some time to chill.

Day's just started.

@Mint: Neither of you are in the clear fwiw. Patch was the consensus lim D2 and getting to E-1 D1 was more of a fluke than anything else.

Did I get it wrong on Patch D1? Yup. Did I suspect them D2? Also yup. Did I find Leek scummier than Patch, and found the idea of them both being scum not palatable? Triple yup.

It was pretty optimal for Aureal to drop their casing of me and go for Patch in the end. They're a good player and they probably saw that bussing Patch D2 would curry favour with people - like yourself.

When I refuted her D2 arguments on me, she basically just went 'no, you're wrong' but with more words on all of them as far as I could see. The push wasn't defensible.

Read into the motivations behind her D3 post: Sheeping your argument, having her own in the pocket if needed. She thinks I'm scum...

So why hasn't she voted me?

Because she's mafia who needs to make sure there is wider support before limming me, to ensure that it doesn't point at her, to ensure that it's a consensus lim.

The fact that she was on the Patch wagon D2 means diddly squat to me, frankly.

[Deltabreedy]

Aureal can defend themselves thanks

[Deltabreedy]

Maybe Aureal didn't vote you because that'd be E-1. Avoiding lolhammers while we still have time to play. That makes sense to me.

Also, off the back of this you could also agree with me that Aureal is concerned about the optics of putting me at E-1. If they think I'm scum wouldn't they not care about a lolhammer?

[Deltabreedy]

Reasonable =/= Convincing

[Deltabreedy]

You're placing a tonne of importance on the optics of being right about Patch

Woohoo, super - glad we got them limmed. Now why are you not concerned about the optics on Aureal?

It does you a bit of a disservice not to be looking at them intensely regarding the reasoning behind their votes and when and why they placed them (or didn't!).

[Deltabreedy]

Also, will have a full response tomorrow, I'm just dipping in for bits and bobs atm

[Deltabreedy]

Well the wagon was going that way - at least 5 people had them in their top two scumreads - so it checks out for me that forcing a Patch lim gives them town credit for a strong endgame.

There wasn't really any other viable lims. Sure, there was Szmarzleek - but Aureal had already committed to Patch and (assuming Scum!Aureal and Town!Leek) would look really weird to go from Patch to Leek at 3 apiece.

All day though, Patch seemed the more likely candidate to get eliminated. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

--

Ninja'd: Well with your vote on me I'm inclined to agree. You're not scum-hunting with the cases on Merlyn, Leek and I - you're playing to probability. This really works for Aureal, but there's a lack of support so by not voting she's stopped herself from wagoning town.

Do me a favour. If I was the lim today, who would you suspect the most overnight? You're making a mistake if you don't at least consider Aureal.

[Deltabreedy]

'The Towncore'

Aureal is fully just focused on the optics of what she looks like today.

This is a mislim, make no mistake. I'll very happily hammer myself to prove it.

[Deltabreedy]

Preferentially we would remove Aureal from the game today and just win straight-up but ho-hum - if I have to go in order to win.

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*

Tbh I don't see it being Merlyn, I don't see it being Leek and I think this read from Mint comes out of absolutely nowhere - the question is, is it Aureal or Mint?

This is just OMGUS. It's not like I'm making up a story to defend a scum partner, there's only one scum left. Do you disagree with my reasoning for clearing myself and Aureal in 1643 and 1645?
*snip*

Yeah, I fully disagree with your clearing of yourself and Aureal.

Patch was super-limmable in D1. Now I thought that those efforts to lim them in D1 at the time came from scum going after someone who given the gamestate would have been a fairly widely agreed-upon lim. Yeah I replaced in and pushed the wagon away from Patch but at the time, I think the logic was pretty sound.

Aureal not doing the night actions at that point makes sense to me, because Patch was the Mafia PR in the end, and was pretty likely to fall to a lim the following day. Why give whatever PR's we have a chance to find the other scum? Aureal having no night actions N1 makes sense, and to be fair was a pretty optimal play. Being on the wagon D2 doesn't mean much because before Szmarz hit E-1, Aureal had already backed themselves into a corner by going in on first myself and then committing to Patch shade - I don't recall them mentioning Leek a huge amount in D2 so moving off them and saving Patch would have drawn a tonne of attention, but they already started planting the seed of a Delta lim yesterday with a pretty BS case which I maintain was fairly easily overturned.

They've then started D3 with a cautious attitude towards limming a

scumread

. We have, as you mentioned Mint, a spare lim. Why would Aureal be cautious about eliminating their primary scumread? - This is because they wanted to ensure they had support and consensus -before- committing their vote.

There's no motivation for Town!Aureal to do that.

Do commit some thought to this because we can wrap this up today.

[Deltabreedy]

'You have to die in order for us to find scum' is an absurd statement.

I've found them, why do I have to die for you to see it?

[Deltabreedy]

If you genuinely think that Patch's play on their partner would be to paint a target on their partner then you're being very deliberately daft, to be honest.

Sure, my vote history counts against me - but can you tell me where, at any point, my logic has been off?

Does anyone genuinely think I'm daft enough to

deliberately

lolhammer as scum D1? I think I'm honestly limbait at this point - which in turn makes it worse for Aureal & Mint that they're going for me. This also leans me more into understanding why Aureal started a case on me yesterday.

[Deltabreedy]

I mean, be aware that I can't speak for Jzhenson's actions. Don't expect me to be able to justify them.

[Deltabreedy]

Aureal doesn't have any case on me by the way. Look at that post.

z_z

Yup, Delta's scum alright.

• Starting off her argument with a very closed statement to try and put across that it's a fact. By being very casual about, it's assumed, yet again they didn't vote for their primary scumread after agreeing with a case and even saying 'It's pretty much gotta be Delta here'.

Town Delta would realize he's got terrible associations with patch;

• See this is something that's true - but I've been saying this already.
  
  Do you not think that Scum!Patch would do what they could as it became apparent that they were the D2 lim to try and cast suspicion on people in the town to give their partner the best possible D3? They even heavily 'scumread' Aureal 2nd only to Leek in their last readslist with this question: 'why in the heck are you still voting delta....?'
  
  Knowing that Patch's reads are from a base of trying to mislead town, do you honestly think that Scum!Patch is going to paint their partner with such a target by saying they're town? This is also another reason why I don't think it's Mint.

Scum Delta realizes his only possible path to victory is going hard through the towncore no matter how ridiculous the arguments he needs to make to try to get there (OMG she didn't vote me to E-1 an hour into the day- clearly fake read?!? ).

• Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
  
  
  You aren't the towncore whether I do or don't get limmed.

Sorry you replaced into such an awkward spot, man. Probably wasn't much else you could've done there, you did need to come in hard to push the D1 lim off of patch. You might've even kept it away D2 as well without Black turning up FN or patch's PR fakeout.

• Nope, this is another bit of fluff that is very much designed as manipulatively persuasive chat. But where's the case?
  
  (A hint: there isn't one).

inb4 OMG now she's voting because I said it was sus for her not to, so sus!

• I called her out, she recognises it and is trying to laugh it off.

---

@Szmarzleek:

Aureal started to lay the groundwork in #1426 which came out of nowhere & #1435 where they doubled down on it. They triple-down on it later but I think they also goaded a reaction out of me with the gaslighting comment and then were very deliberately combative because they weren't expecting a coherent defence of my actions.

[Deltabreedy]

You're coming at it from the perspective that Aureal is completely truthful in what they've been saying all game.

Scum aren't truthful leek.

--

If you were limmed yesterday and flipped town, Patch would have 100% been the lim today, I'd have led the wagon from the start - as I said in my readslist - they were my 2nd choice vote before the wagons developed yesterday.

--

RE: History between Black and I - I tunneled her as town D1 in a game where she was scum. I got overturned on this, TR'd her all game. She played a really good game and we can laugh about it after.

Inferring that there's a history there which is what motivated a Black kill is lazy.

[Deltabreedy]

Where did that even come from? Can you quote the post where that first came up?

[Deltabreedy]

Shock horror it came from Aureal.

Why does it feel like you're just blindly trusting them?

[Deltabreedy]

Like do you seriously not see what I see

Aureal has literally had this in the playbook from the moment they decided to raise suspicion on me. It didn't catch yesterday, and because they had already positioned themselves against Patch in D2 there was no coming back away from that towards Leek, and there was no appetite for limming me.

Now that Mint has come through with this daft bollocks about them and Aureal being cleared (Which is an awful, awful thing to assert as town btw) - Aureal is free to continue with these planted seeds.

Why would I be wary of Town!Black catching Scum!Me? She never has in the games we played together, she's only ever fooled me when she's scum and I'm town. On that point in particular, Aureal has looked the shallowest bit into my meta but has missed the point. If you're going to pin shit on me from my meta? Do the reading.

[Deltabreedy]

I think Mint is coming at it from a game-solving angle - Aureal is piggybacking onto it from a lazy argument D2 and sheeping someone widely considered as town D3.

Don't fall for it.

[Deltabreedy]

I think it's a fairly universal constant in this game that you and patch aren't partners

[Deltabreedy]

But hey you've made your mind up - lim me and then Aureal tomorrow for the win.

Do you want to hammer or should I?

[Deltabreedy]

Promise me that you're going to look at Aureal tomorrow, cause if I'm limmed today pointlessly then I'll be annoyed.

[Deltabreedy]

By the way, shortening my argument against Aureal to 'they voted for me!' is reductive.

I voted for them first
I've refuted every one of their points on me
I've pointed out why she's scum.

Fucking open your eyes and READ IT, either now or in N3

[Deltabreedy]

Because they know in some way shape or form that Aureal's case on me is an absolute pile of crock - entirely manufactured.

I can't say it loudly enough, Aureal is scum.

If yous need me to be eliminated in order to convince yourselves of it - I'm more than happy to oblige.

[Deltabreedy]

@Merlyn

What are your thoughts on all this?

[Deltabreedy]

I don't see a game in which Patch and Leek were scumbuddies. It would actually be quite upsetting to me if they had because that would mean that there's been some skirting of some quite big emotional topics to score points. I don't think that's what's happened here. I'd say that for me, as much as I reiterate I'd be keen on having them gone from the game, Leek is 95% town for me now by virtue of negative associations with Patch.

@Szmarzleek: Do I have a point regarding Aureal? Are you reading my posts at all? I've given you 6 or 7 points. If you're calling for more discussion can I make the request that you actually read my posts against Aureal today?

@Merlyn: Judge the merits of her case against the facts of whats been posted. Her actions now speak significantly louder than what Mint alluded to about her D1 and D2 gameplay.

Ninja'd by Merlyn:
Let them cook - they're slowly waking up to Scum!Aureal. You should too, for the reasons I've stated. Scum!Leek just doesn't make sense any longer knowing now what we didn't in D2.

[Deltabreedy]

It's not me. I don't think it's Leek. Scum!Merlyn could have quite easily hammered by now and there'd be no real issue from any of the others.

It has to be within Aureal and Mint. Scum!Mint wouldn't need to come out of the gate and gamesolve D3, they could wait but they put forward cases. Admittedly, they've put them on the three people that I don't think can be scum but it's effort that's been put in. Aureal hasn't done anything like this. She started D3 by sheeping Mint but waiting to see if there was consensus behind the lim.

Merlyn - Aureal has done the exact same thing you're questioning Leek over. Do consider that.

[Deltabreedy]

Leek I'm just asking you to read my posts. I've pointed out everything you need to know that points to Scum!Aureal.

I'm around right now so lets have a quick AMA.

[Deltabreedy]

I've not said you're missing something obvious - I'm simply requesting that you read my posts.

READ THEM.

I'm here for any questions.

[Deltabreedy]

A summary of my D3 case on Aureal:

Spoiler: #1688

Aureal doesn't have any case on me by the way. Look at that post.

z_z

Yup, Delta's scum alright.

• Starting off her argument with a very closed statement to try and put across that it's a fact. By being very casual about, it's assumed, yet again they didn't vote for their primary scumread after agreeing with a case and even saying 'It's pretty much gotta be Delta here'.

Town Delta would realize he's got terrible associations with patch;

• See this is something that's true - but I've been saying this already.
  
  Do you not think that Scum!Patch would do what they could as it became apparent that they were the D2 lim to try and cast suspicion on people in the town to give their partner the best possible D3? They even heavily 'scumread' Aureal 2nd only to Leek in their last readslist with this question: 'why in the heck are you still voting delta....?'
  
  Knowing that Patch's reads are from a base of trying to mislead town, do you honestly think that Scum!Patch is going to paint their partner with such a target by saying they're town? This is also another reason why I don't think it's Mint.

Scum Delta realizes his only possible path to victory is going hard through the towncore no matter how ridiculous the arguments he needs to make to try to get there (OMG she didn't vote me to E-1 an hour into the day- clearly fake read?!? ).

• Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
  
  
  You aren't the towncore whether I do or don't get limmed.

Sorry you replaced into such an awkward spot, man. Probably wasn't much else you could've done there, you did need to come in hard to push the D1 lim off of patch. You might've even kept it away D2 as well without Black turning up FN or patch's PR fakeout.

• Nope, this is another bit of fluff that is very much designed as manipulatively persuasive chat. But where's the case?
  
  (A hint: there isn't one).

inb4 OMG now she's voting because I said it was sus for her not to, so sus!

• I called her out, she recognises it and is trying to laugh it off.

---

@Szmarzleek:

Aureal started to lay the groundwork in #1426 which came out of nowhere & #1435 where they doubled down on it. They triple-down on it later but I think they also goaded a reaction out of me with the gaslighting comment and then were very deliberately combative because they weren't expecting a coherent defence of my actions.

Spoiler: #1691

You're coming at it from the perspective that Aureal is completely truthful in what they've been saying all game.

Scum aren't truthful leek.

--

If you were limmed yesterday and flipped town, Patch would have 100% been the lim today, I'd have led the wagon from the start - as I said in my readslist - they were my 2nd choice vote before the wagons developed yesterday.

--

RE: History between Black and I - I tunneled her as town D1 in a game where she was scum. I got overturned on this, TR'd her all game. She played a really good game and we can laugh about it after.

Inferring that there's a history there which is what motivated a Black kill is lazy.

Spoiler: #1696

Like do you seriously not see what I see

Aureal has literally had this in the playbook from the moment they decided to raise suspicion on me. It didn't catch yesterday, and because they had already positioned themselves against Patch in D2 there was no coming back away from that towards Leek, and there was no appetite for limming me.

Now that Mint has come through with this daft bollocks about them and Aureal being cleared (Which is an awful, awful thing to assert as town btw) - Aureal is free to continue with these planted seeds.

Why would I be wary of Town!Black catching Scum!Me? She never has in the games we played together, she's only ever fooled me when she's scum and I'm town. On that point in particular, Aureal has looked the shallowest bit into my meta but has missed the point. If you're going to pin shit on me from my meta? Do the reading.

Spoiler: #1697

I think Mint is coming at it from a game-solving angle - Aureal is piggybacking onto it from a lazy argument D2 and sheeping someone widely considered as town D3.

Don't fall for it.

Spoiler: #1713

It's not me. I don't think it's Leek. Scum!Merlyn could have quite easily hammered by now and there'd be no real issue from any of the others.

It has to be within Aureal and Mint. Scum!Mint wouldn't need to come out of the gate and gamesolve D3, they could wait but they put forward cases. Admittedly, they've put them on the three people that I don't think can be scum but it's effort that's been put in. Aureal hasn't done anything like this. She started D3 by sheeping Mint but waiting to see if there was consensus behind the lim.

Merlyn - Aureal has done the exact same thing you're questioning Leek over. Do consider that.

[Deltabreedy]

I don't like the fact that Aureal just "ayy lmaoed" your case today and went with the vote and are gone now. It's weekend so I guess maybe people are busy. In any scenario, time and discussion benefits the town in a potential d4.

Yeah, because there's no serious refuting of my points. The fact that she didn't defend them when trying to lim scum and allegedly win the game is because she couldn't defend her side of it. Laughing and dipping buys her 36 hours of time to go away, construct an argument and force this through.

[Deltabreedy]

It literally took me pointing it out for her to even go on to vote for me. Does that sound like town who thinks it 'Pretty much has to be {Delta}?'

[Deltabreedy]

See, there was no off-handed comments like this yesterday when they leaned on Patch. There wasn't even any of this first time she pushed me.

She has nothing, and is trying to downplay how credible my points are with this drastic shift in tone.

[Deltabreedy]

Get Aureal tomorrow.

[Deltabreedy]

On the meta point about my reaction to a 'lolhammer'.

The other game, we were in a 3v2 LILO, and it was an incredibly charged moment because we had been going back and forth for ages. Not really the same as a confused D1 Mislim.

As I've said - I'm essentially limbait at this point. There's no-one else that Aureal can push on this strongly.

But the whole case is really

- Delta made a mistake hammering.
- Delta misread Patch
- Delta's got history with players in the game

Convincing stuff - I'm super glad you're all taken with it.

I'll wait for one last word from Mint then someone can hammer.

Or you know, we can just lim Aureal and win

[Deltabreedy]

I just don't see it being Aureal. I just don't see her springing the trap on patch when it looks like no one else saw that softing. Her defense of herself in these last few posts is strong.

I'm not as sold on her Delta case- it's not super strong. I'll vote for Delta before a non elim, but are we even there yet? We have a couple of days, right? Delta, is there no one else in the game besides Aureal you find sus and would vote for? What are your thoughts on Mint?

Mod, can I get a votecount and a deadline check please?

It's not you, Scum!Merlyn could have hammered a very limmable Delta already.

It's not Leek, the interactions between Patch and Leek point to them not being on the same team.

It's not Mint - they came out of the gate D3 looking to game-solve. They 'cleared' Aureal for a daft reason but they're putting effort in that scum would be hesitant to lest they give owt away.

Just by PoE it's either me or Aureal. If you have to lim me to whittle down the field to me and her, so be it.

[Deltabreedy]

Leek stop being daft and casing Merlyn.

[Deltabreedy]

Do you disagree with my conclusion that it's either Aureal or myself?

[Deltabreedy]

Sorry for the absence.

It's not you, Scum!Merlyn could have hammered a very limmable Delta already.

It's not Leek, the interactions between Patch and Leek point to them not being on the same team.

It's not Mint - they came out of the gate D3 looking to game-solve. They 'cleared' Aureal for a daft reason but they're putting effort in that scum would be hesitant to lest they give owt away.

Just by PoE it's either me or Aureal. If you have to lim me to whittle down the field to me and her, so be it.

Hypothetically, if we found out that it wasn't either of you, then who of the "cleared" three seems like the most likely scum?

None of you. I'm not engaging in hypotheticals in Lim-Or-Lose.

It's Me, or it's Aureal.

I know it's Aureal.

[Deltabreedy]

Honestly that's a pretty pointless question - you can see the reasoning I've come out with above for why it's none of you. Why does it matter how I would rank you?

[Deltabreedy]

Well it will be Aureal, but honestly I don't know.

Probably between you/merlyn - but I haven't put that much thought into it because by POE, by the strength of my read on Aureal and my commitment to this, I don't really need to slap a case together on Scum!Mint, Scum!Merlyn or Scum!Leek.

[Deltabreedy]

Have you considered asking Aureal this question?

[Deltabreedy]

Also for context, my #1668 is me saying that your arguments today against myself, Leek and Merlyn are reasonable - but they haven't convinced me I can tell you that (Probably because your conclusion removes me from the game, and disregards my #1 scumread) - and I wasn't sold on Patch D1 either.

Part of mafia is you aren't going to convince everyone with your arguments - you're doing well to articulate yourself. Don't worry

[Deltabreedy]

If my scumgame is half as good as you think it is - don't you think I'd have coached Patch on it?

[Deltabreedy]

Here, try this:

Vote Aureal

[Deltabreedy]

Aureal hasn't been under pressure the whole game - put her at L-1 and see what happens

[Deltabreedy]

In that scenario I'm trusting Merlyn to make the right decision

[Deltabreedy]

But tbh whichever of you votes her first, I'm trusting the other one to make the right decision.

@Mint: You seem open to discussion but you haven't dropped your vote. Are you tunnelled or aren't you?

[Deltabreedy]

I hate meta, I think it's easy to play to and away from your own meta, but I've seen a few people talking about it so here:

This is my only scum game on MS.

I'm Mafia Goon, I'm eliminated D1 after being suspected by just about everyone except Black, so I fakeclaim a PR and draw out both the Doc (Bella) and the Cop (Comet) in that game.

Black believed that I was town right up until my flip. Black votes against the actual cop following my fakeclaim.

Like, I really need the townsfolk in this game to rally against Aureal for the win here.

[Deltabreedy]

didn't Mint vote at the beginning of the day?

As in, they haven't removed their vote against me

[Deltabreedy]

VOTE: Deltabacon

It's Aureal.

Merlyn, overnight just look at the interactions between Leek and Patch, and just look at Aureal super-quickly came up with a bullshit case tomorrow.

I'm telling you now, it's not Leek.

[Deltabreedy]

Yesterday, even.

Aureal needs to fabricate a case on someone tomorrow. Probably the kill is one of Mint/Merlyn since both of you show a desire to lim Leek, they force a case on Leek

[Deltabreedy]

Ugh, god damnit.

VOTE: Delta

[Deltabreedy]

Hang on

[Deltabreedy]

Why is it Mint, @Merlyn?

Do you genuinely think they bussed all day D1 and all day D2?

[Deltabreedy]

GG

[Deltabreedy]

Cheers. For context you had me fully fooled