Newbie 2125 - Postgame

[ChicagoTypewriter]

First

VOTE: ChicagoTypewriter

Eh, I'm willing to let bygones be bygones if you are.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

VOTE: ChicagoTypewriter

You are obsolete.

Also, does

no one

on this site appreciate a classic? smh.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

@Chicago: How did you feel about being at E-2 so soon?

Hmmm. This

is

only my third game, but it is kind of weird, though I don't know how much attention people pay to RVS to know that it was putting me to E-2. If Egix96 was going for an early mislim and try to pass it off as a mistake ... I don't know, it doesn't seem like a smart scum play. Of course, it's not exactly a smart town play either, that's the kind of joke you pull as a second vote, a third vote is a bit suspicious. SmarzLeek's counter play is fairly standard. Of course, I'm still at E-3, so it's now two serious votes away from E-1, which is a position to be in one Day 1, certainly.

Are we out of RVS stage yet?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

VOTE: ChicagoTypewriter

You are obsolete.

Also, does

no one

on this site appreciate a classic? smh.

Just outta curiosity, are you saying that you are a classic? That your name is? Or...?

this is scum choo choo

The heck? I sincerely have no idea what they mean, so I asked a question. Why is that scummy?

The object itself, the eponymous 'Chicago Typewriter' is a classic. Just to clarify.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I would say we are out of RVS since people are voting with backed reasoning.

*some people

[ChicagoTypewriter]

@Chicago: How did you feel about being at E-2 so soon?

Hmmm. This

is

only my third game, but it is kind of weird, though I don't know how much attention people pay to RVS to know that it was putting me to E-2. If Egix96 was going for an early mislim and try to pass it off as a mistake ... I don't know, it doesn't seem like a smart scum play. Of course, it's not exactly a smart town play either, that's the kind of joke you pull as a second vote, a third vote is a bit suspicious. SmarzLeek's counter play is fairly standard. Of course, I'm still at E-3, so it's now two serious votes away from E-1, which is a position to be in one Day 1, certainly.

Are we out of RVS stage yet?

This, and the overall lack of decisiveness or even any kind of opinion in this post, is scummy.

VOTE: Chicago

It's not even been 36 hours, and I've been at E-2

twice

. Fantastic. Do you want an opinion? My opinion is, to paraphrase a certain Southern gentleman detective Benoit Blanc: "Y'all are dumb." Some people are genuinely trying to scumhunt right now, (Deltabreedy, for one) but that some people

aren't you

. I don't even know what your RVS/not-RVS on BBmolla was, but you now seemed to have abandoned that to decide that my very passive engagement to being joke-voted three times was 'scummy'.

Let me elucidate to you how I work. It's not even two days into Day 1. There has been slightly over two pages of interactions, with maybe one page of that meaningful. I will post a read list at some point in the near future, when I feel capable of it, but beyond that, I will save my serious actions for when we're out of RVS.

I wanted to know how you felt about it on more of an emotional level to be honest.

I don't care. It's RVS; and I don't think anyone here is foolish enough to accidentally hammer me, or worse, deliberately hammer me. The analysis isn't even so good on this, honestly, because I have to apply Hanlon's Razor to it.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

@Camel: Neither of your posts (#36 and #41) actually answered my question.

Can you explain why you're unvoting and waiting for a response to your question on OP's before sharing thoughts on what is developing here?

I'm referring to BBMolla and I's push on Dragon, in case it's unclear.

Up until Dragon's vote on Chicago I was thinking that Dragon is town and that BBMolla was more on the scummy side for me (though I didn't wanna commit to it).

Now I'm not really sure on Dragon either since, like you pointed out, he said he would stay put on BBMolla.

Anyway I'm gonna pull an Egix and VOTE: Dragon

Sensible.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Yeah I mean I have no clue why how people are on this DragonEater bandwagon. Like it's been two days and three pages and we think he's scum because he asked a question in RVS? Why don't we mull things over some more?

I have two minds about this. One the one, an E-1 is too early for Day 1, certainly. The scumhunt has only gotten into swing and there's not enough player-player interactions, so its a little early for this. On the other hand,

really

? Let me rifle through DragonEater70's iso a bit.

DragonEater70 voted on BBmolla at post 13, and while unclear if it was RVS or not (57 implies it is), it's definitely not by post 27, being referred to as a 'wagon'. After acting

very

defensive for a while (44,45), he decides to go after me with what is frankly a poor scumread. The poor justification is:

I sincerely believe that Chicago is either actively avoiding expressing a concrete opinion, or is not really engaged in the game, and I want to push that.

which came a solid, oh, 48 hours or so into the game. Yes. That is

definitely

enough time to judge someone for adequately avoiding expressing a concrete opinion.

In short, DragonEater has voted twice seriously at this point, both on flimsy pretexts. I see a very good reason to scumread DragonEater70.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Oh, also, I know this isn't the best coming from me, but, ah @KatyKimFanClub? Would you mind interacting with the rest of us? You see, you have all of four posts right now. We have you voting for me, defending your vote for me, unvoting for me, and then defending the DragonEater70 pileup.

Now, a suspicious man might think you were lurking; and perhaps you only set up a second vote on me to bait a reaction for DragonEater70 to scumread; perhaps seeing the two of you as a scumpair. Of course, I'm not a suspicious man and I would never think such a thing.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

set up a second vote on me to bait a reaction for DragonEater70 to scumread

I'm honestly confused about this because I've never scumread anyone based on votes on you? Unless you mean scumreading Egix which Leek did first.

My

reaction

. Remember this?

This, and the overall lack of decisiveness or even any kind of opinion in this post, is scummy.

VOTE: Chicago

[ChicagoTypewriter]

DragonEater70 voted on BBmolla at post 13, and while unclear if it was RVS or not (57 implies it is), it's definitely not by post 27, being referred to as a 'wagon'.

1. It was half-RVS.
2. There's such a thing as wagons in RVS? Maybe I used the wrong terminology? I was definitely NOT intending to lim BB, I was intending to generate content and reactions. I know you guys are gonna say "this sounds so performative, if you really wanted content and reactions then why are you not commenting on anything but just reacting defensively?" but that's kinda how I play? I just bait a reaction and then forget about it.

Anyhow, it seems I've dug myself into quite a soup, and I'm not quite focused. I will read the game tomorrow, beginning to end, and see if I can contribute some more reads (I really don't know what's so bad about having a vibe read on Delta but whatever). Meantime, goodnight!

Yeah, this is why you've dug yourself into a hole. You're half-baking everything. It's serious when it's convenient and RVS when it's not. No one likes fence sitters.

How in the seventh hell do you think that I set up your undecisive reaction? I had no way to know you'll react like that, I had no way to know you would even be asked this question. This theory makes zero fucking sense.

Now, a suspicious man might think you were lurking; and perhaps you only set up a second vote on me to bait a reaction for DragonEater70 to scumread; perhaps seeing the two of you as a scumpair. Of course, I'm not a suspicious man and I would never think such a thing.

Why so defensive? Pretty sure I said I would never think such a thing.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Yeah I mean I have no clue why how people are on this DragonEater bandwagon. Like it's been two days and three pages and we think he's scum because he asked a question in RVS? Why don't we mull things over some more?

I can't put my finger on it but something about this post seems scum.

Did I say anything in my summary post that was incorrect?

How is my saying that the Dragon bandwagon is bad not an original thought?

So, is this a summary or is this an original thought?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

So, question for the group - Deltabreedy vs KatyKimFanClub - is this town v. town or scum v. town?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

KatyKimFanClub's 94 is where he claims to address his defense of DragonEater70, and it's not great. It's mostly offense against people scumreading DragonEater70; and doesn't address 57

at all

. He's not really interested in interacting, just throwing up a front to justify what seems to be a bad call. I do not like this. Scum? Perhaps.

Deltabreedy, right now, is behaving as either a town trying to scumhunt someone who's shady or a scum who has a townie with a mistake in his sight. Either explanation works, this isn't town-unique behavior; but there's nothing that makes me think he's scum either.

I wouldn't say that this is certainly tvs; no, but I'm more null/slight town-reading Deltabreedy right now and scum-reading KatyKimFanClub. I'm also kind of wondering where DragonEater70 has been for this conversation, I'd like his input as well.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Best way to find out is to vote them and find out, Chicago.

But do I really want to put DragonEater70 back at E-1 so early, though? Maybe KatyKimFanClub, we'll see.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

The main reason I'm so pressed is because I'm reading Dragon's messages and

I genuinely do not see what 4 other people are voting for

. It's like some feverish town hysteria thing going on FMPOV. In post 27 doesn't he literally say he's willing to change his vote if it doesn't get traction? I think if he's scum, he'd either sit on the vote for a bit to lay low or be a little less pragmatic with wagons this early in the day.
...

My defense of Dragon is pointing out that he's not nearly as scummy as he seems

because a rereading of his posts shows that a lot of the original wagon pretenses seem to be misread. I don't have to think he's confirmed town or anything to defend him,

I just need to think that this vote is worse than other votes we can have today

. If we cann't make the logical connection that my earlier posts were a defense of Dragon then honestly we have someone acting in bad faith (DeltaBreedy) and someone sheeping them for some unknown reason (CT).

You're telling me no one can read my comments and understand why I'm defending dragon?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'sheeping', so I'm going to assume 'herding' here, but, sure, I can have this discussion. Ignore Deltabreedy for the time being, just respond to me because whether I vote for you right now depends very heavily on whatever you respond to this.

I need a straight answer from you, and I'm not getting that. Let's talk about engagement. I've laid out a pretty solid case for why DragonEater70 can be scum-read in my post 71, a post by the way that you haven't interacted with at all. You've interacted with 86 (in 94), but you're wrong and you seem to acknowledge it too. DragonEater70 hasn't been clear on whether the vote on BBmolla was RVS or not and bailed to vote on me at the first opportunity. You yourself even call this 'half-baked'. Half-baked is

bad

. Half-baked is

scummy

. RVS? Fine. Vote to fish a reaction? Fine. Vote and then backpedal your explanation several times? Not exactly fine. And he hasn't really

done

anything to dig him out of that hole as of now. If you don't understand that's why people are finding him scummy, this is going to be a rough game going forward.

Now, let's go onto you - your defense of DragonEater70 is kind of suspicious. No one's saying you can't defend someone who you think is town, but your interactions with Deltabreedy aren't great, the two of you aren't talking with each other, just at each other. 94 is mostly you looking at scumreads and saying 'don't like, don't like, don't like'. Is there something about DragonEater70 you do like? And if so, can you tell me?

Because, lastly, here's the thing - you're pulling the same half-n-half that I accused DragonEater70 of doing. Observe the bolded text. In this post I'm quoting from you, you are implying that a) there's no reason for anyone to vote for DragonEater70, b) okay, maybe he's a little scummy, but not as much as you guys make him out to be, and c) yes, fine, it's acceptable to vote for him but there are better targets out there. Then you vote camelCasedSnivy; which is weird, because your main issue with him (if I recall correctly) was him voting for DragonEater70. Why him and not Bazuf, who is genuinely lurking right now?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Post Edit: I mixed you up with SsmarzLeek, you voted for Bazuf. No questions there. The rest stands, though.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

At worst I'm just someone who uses flowery language that he probably shouldn't be using.

Yes, very probably. Also that particular shade of blue makes my eyes hurt when I view it on sepia.

Okay. I do think what we have here may be a breakdown of communications. I'm going to double-check your ISO, but it does actually seem like you're defending DragonEater70 from a position of null-read rather than a position of town-read.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

if I'm right, this is a perfect situation for scum, two stubborn townies who hate each other already, scum can just hide in lair and wait for town to devour itself, adding fuel to the fire

I have been thinking this for a while. We have time left in Day 1 to move past this.

I know this is perhaps a weird thing to advocate for, but Deltabreedy, would you mind stepping away from the game for a few hours to cool your head and try to de-escalate the situation? Also, KatyKimFanClub, kind of the same to you, though I get you didn't start this.

We have bigger fish to fry, starting with a number of unresponsive players. Specifically, I'm looking at DragonEater70 and Bazuf.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

We have bigger fish to fry, starting with a number of unresponsive players. Specifically, I'm looking at DragonEater70 and Bazuf.

Also BBmolla. Can't forget about him.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

And insinuating that I've started something is pretty disingenuous. I've just been asking questions with natural progression, and that's kind of how the game is played.

If someone refuses to answer your questions or refuses to engage with you, either move on or appeal to the crowd and try to wagon. You're the one who kept trying to get the answer you wanted when it was clear to everyone you weren't going to get it.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

So you're deliberately ignoring the progression in my questions?

I'd actually like to see the progression in the useful information you got from KatyKimFanClub, if you don't mind.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

The narrative that I'm asking the same question over and over is false. I repeated a question once, when it wasn't answered.

If someone refuses to answer your questions or refuses to engage with you, either move on or appeal to the crowd and try to wagon.

Now who's being misrepresented? You are missing my point. I do not care what questions you have asked him, I never said I did. You could ask him what the airspeed velocity of a European swallow is. The point is not what question you are using, the point is what answer you are getting.

You should vote for KKFC now.

No. Again, it's too early in Day 1 for elimination, especially with the lack of player interaction.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Okay, I've got a good amount of information. I'm posting a readlist.

DragonEater70

: For reasons I've explained earlier, I have a scumread on him. He also seems to not understand my witty banter for someone who was engaged in it for too long.

Bazuf

: Lurking hard, and I don't have great scumreads in the active player base.

KatyKimFanClub

: Mostly nullread, with a slight lean to town, I think. I'm not happy with the shouting match between him and Deltabreedy, but at this point, I've come to believe that its probably TvT. Probably.

SzmarzLeek

: Townread. SzmarzLeek has been a very cool head for the entire game so far and snapped down the E-1 on DragonEater70.

camelCasedSnivy

: I don't like the scumread of KKFC right now, and his reads aren't great to me. I'm not willing to vote for him right now, but let me mull it over and I might be persuaded to join a wagon.

Egix96

: Nullread. Not a lot of interactions, and I kind of like his interaction to the KKFC v Delta fight. But his vote for camelCasedSnivy with the justification of 'see Leek's reasoning' isn't great, especially with it coming out of nowhere. There's no rush right now - wait until you can post your reason to vote.

Deltabreedy

: Seriously, lay off of KKFC and interact with someone else. You're tunneling right now, and have been doing so for like 20 posts. I don't think you're scum because scum would do something smarter, but you're not very townie right now.

BBmolla

: You've posted nine times and wound up voting for Bazuf, which is just vanilla. That isn't itself a condemnation, but it's not great when you take it into context that it's pretty much all he's done.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

So, question for the group - Deltabreedy vs KatyKimFanClub - is this town v. town or scum v. town?

It just feels like throwing shade for the sake of throwing shade, you know? Like how can you even read either Delta or Katy as scummy here? And Chicago never even explains why he suspected Katy in the first place, only that he doesn't like a

later

post (94). Also, is it just me or is he continuing to be extremely indecisive in everything except his tunnel on me? Like why ask town if it's TvT or TvS instead of making up your own mind?

KatyKimFanClub's 94 is where he claims to address his defense of DragonEater70, and it's not great. It's mostly offense against people scumreading DragonEater70; and doesn't address 57

at all

. He's not really interested in interacting, just throwing up a front to justify what seems to be a bad call. I do not like this. Scum? Perhaps.

Deltabreedy, right now, is behaving as either a town trying to scumhunt someone who's shady or a scum who has a townie with a mistake in his sight. Either explanation works, this isn't town-unique behavior; but there's nothing that makes me think he's scum either.

I wouldn't say that this is certainly tvs; no, but I'm more null/slight town-reading Deltabreedy right now and scum-reading KatyKimFanClub. I'm also kind of wondering where DragonEater70 has been for this conversation, I'd like his input as well.

I do, in fact, explain why I scumread KatyKimFanClub in this post. I also go in-depth into what I think of whether tvs or tvt. And I go into what I think of Deltabreedy. And you've quote-mined that to make me sound like I have no opinions of my own.

DragonEater70, are you looking to actually find the scum or justify your vote on me? Because you've got to pick one.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

You're funny.

I've asked them three questions and I have then had to continually correct the misinformation and the false narrative that they and others (including yourself) have put forward since.

Do better.

...kay, but you literally lied about me and I corrected you back in 172, which you haven't interacted with.

Also you asked them (let's see, 91, 111, 121, 123, 126); so five questions; not counting the duplicate times you pressure for a defense of DragonEater70, so that's 96, 97, 107, which, wow, kind of seems like a lot, doesn't it? That's not counting the times you appealed to other players

So, when you say 'misinformation and false narrative', I do not think that word means what you think that word means.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I've never lied about you, so you can correct the record on that nice and sharpish. #170 was directed at the whole town, not just you - you've got some real bad main character syndrome if you're thinking it was about you.

It's an extension of 162, which was directed at me.

So yeah, you're spreading a false narrative that I'm tunnelled on KKFC because I could have sworn you said I've been at them for 20 posts.

Yes, and...? I'm sorry, do you think you haven't been tunneling KKFC?

Are you arguing with me in good faith or just because it's something to do - you've got 3 scumreads right now but you're dancing around generating a full case on them or trying to sort them out. You haven't even put a vote down yet. Why?

I'm not actually certain anyone is capable of arguing with you in good faith. As to the vote ... well, I simply think voting at this stage is either premature or I won't achieve anything by it.

You also include KKFC as a scumread, but then later on in #182 you have them as one of 2 marginal townreads. What have you seen that I haven't, because you offer no explanation here as to why KKFC has gone from Scumread to Townread.

128, 132, 136
He's defending out of null-read. I have no quarrel.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Still ignoring #169 by the way.

Answer 168, and I will

gladly

give you the response you think 169 deserves.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Are you doing this deliberately?

As opposed to this account being run by 1,000 monkeys? No, I'm

Chicago

Typewriter, not

Shakesperean

Typewriter.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

BBmolla - Not really seeing much in the way of justification. The vote on Egix I find a bit weird - I think they're using their vote for pressure but with no real channel to direct that pressure, making it a bit of a null endeavour.

was Dragon not the leading wagon for a while?

Did Bazuf not post immediately after I voted them?

Did Egix not replace out immediately after I voted them?

idk why ya'll are acting like I'm not doing anything, I'm trying to get all the variables here so we have the whole picture.

UNVOTE:

I mean, yeah, that's great and all, but
a) You voted the man without giving a reason at all, just a 'real vote' notice so people wouldn't think it's RVS. You didn't wagon. Don't claim credit.
b) Yes, Bazuf posted but correlation doesn't equal causation
c) What kind of nonsense is that? Egix is V/LA; he didn't replace because you voted him.
d) We're acting like that because you aren't. You've barely interacted with anyone and you're acting like all you need to do is just vote people and it solves all the problems in the game.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

1.02

Votecount 1.02

DragonEater70 (E-1): BBmolla, Deltabreedy, camelCasedSnivy, Bazuf
ChicagoTypewriter (E-2): KatyKimFanClub, Egix96, DragonEater70
Egix96 (1): SzmarzLeek

Not Voting (1): ChicagoTypewriter

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an elimination.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2023-06-27 12:40:45).

Okay, I'm going to just grab this here. It seems to me very, very likely that there's at least one scum in the DragonEater70 wagon at this point. Honestly, that's an assumption on my part and I'm willing to admit it, but what scum wouldn't love to be part of an early Day 1 elimination while not being the one who hammered? And, even without it, there's kind of a consensus that DragonEater70 is a little scummy, because how else would you get to E-1 at this point in the game? Also, I've got nullreads/townreads on most people out of the voting group, so let me focus in a little.

BBmolla: You is scum. See my prior post for a detailed explanation, tl;dr is that voting is not interaction.

Deltabreedy: Null-read. Currently.

camelCasedSnivy: I think he's on a few people's scumreads. Good interactions for the early D1, but that's the most positive aspect. Voted for Dragon on the sole reason that Dragon switched from BBmolla to me ... eh. Not the best justification, but if the intent was pressure, that's fine. Took initiative and unvoted DragonEater70. I don't like 135 though. He should have a scumread on BBmolla based on his earlier posts, but seems to have forgotten that and reads SzmarzLeek as null. Is fine with Deltabreedy wagonning KKFC, barely contributes to the attempt, though. His scumpair is thoroughly uninspired at this point in the game, it's similar to what I called out BBmolla for when he just voted Bazuf - it's such a safe play.

Bazuf: Black hole. Very suspicious black hole, mind you, but a black hole. He did throw up the fourth vote on DragonEater70, which doesn't seem like a smart scum move. The reasoning was good for like, a second vote on someone, but not a fourth vote. Beyond that, he also (maybe) reads the scumpair of DragonEater70 + KKFC.

Okay. I think, right now, camelCasedSnivy could use more votes on him.
VOTE: camelCasedSnivy

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Oh, to clarify, I don't mean that I think BBmolla is definitely scum, I mean I find him very scummy right now.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I think it's early enough in the day that it's justified. I'm not scumreading KKFC right now, I Santa to focus on other players.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Just look at what actually happened in the Dragon wagon. There was not a lot of legitimate reasoning and that gave me all sorts of alarm.

Yeah, but I think even you can admit that you were a little overzealous in his defense. If you want a good example of what you should have done, Szmarzleek had a concise post on the subject and he's getting townread because of it.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

On a more objective level - it's optimal for town to lim D1, even if it's a mislim. Not limming means that on a semantic level, scum retain total control over the first kill and can guide the narrative from there, but also on a mechanical through a series of mathematics that doesn't feel intuitive means it's significantly more likely for us to find ourselves in a lim-or-lose scenario much easier. An SE with some more experience than I can flesh that out because I can't recall exactly how that works.

Ah, so basically as I understand it, it comes down to a question of confirmed town and semi-confirmed town. In an elo situation with 2 confirmed town and 1 scum, the scum loses. Obviously. In an elo situation with 2 very scummy-looking town and 1 town-looking scum; the scum has a good chance of winning.

Ultimately, the mafia have two objectives - remove town power roles and remove confirmed towns; and town power roles is halfway because town prs can confirm townies or confirm scum. In the hypothetical event of no town elimination during the day, the mafia get to control four kills before elo and they will always choose to eliminate the most townie / most pr-likely candidates. However, if the town gets to choose two of those kills, even if those aren't mafia kills, as long as they eliminate the most scum-looking players, they have a better chance in elo (and so on and so forth).

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Okay, can someone who isn't just going to bury their head in the fucking sand step up and help us all out with what KKFC has said that's true?

Yeah, but you're not going to like it.

44
Dragon's reasoning in 44 is sort of what I'm talking about. I'm not sure there's a reasonable response as town to a page 1 "real vote" OMGUS.

So again, why are you defending Dragon?

Because I thought a lot of the reads against him were somewhat bogus? I feel like my defenses of Dragon speak for themselves no?
Do you seriously think it's Me/Dragon?

The main reason I'm so pressed is because I'm reading Dragon's messages and I genuinely do not see what 4 other people are voting for. ... My defense of Dragon is pointing out that he's not nearly as scummy as he seems because a rereading of his posts shows that a lot of the original wagon pretenses seem to be misread. I don't have to think he's confirmed town or anything to defend him, I just need to think that this vote is worse than other votes we can have today.

Continuing on to the second part of your paragraph. I'm sort of obligated to defend DragonEater if I don't scumread him and he gets put at E-1. I personally wasn't seeing a lot of the reasons for voting Dragon that others were claiming and it also bothered me that people were sheeping those opinions (thus, the comment on collective town hysteria). Yes, there is a lot of "I don't like this" in my previous posts, but hopefully when you understand what I'm doing from my perspective those "don't likes" make more sense. There's a lot about this wagon that doesn't add up to me and I'm trying to poke holes in it before I move on to producing other reads. Why did I do that? I guess because I felt urgently that we needed to talk more about the votes and because Dragon was much less scummy to me than everyone else in the game.

tl;dr KKFC think DragonEater70 isn't scummy and doesn't like the reads of people who do. He has remained very consistent on this fact, though he doesn't really seem to tr DragonEater70 either, it's more of a 'there are more scummy people out there' kind of a thing.
If you're looking for 'true' in the sense of 'reads you agree with', you aren't going to be getting anything from that.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Only scum attempts to gaslight, thus DeltaBreedy is scum. QED.

eyeroll

And only Sith deals in absolutes, thus KatyKimFanClub is scum. QED.

I genuinely don't think you're scum, but I think we have a much better chance of finding the scum if we explored more options. Deltabreedy thinks you might be slightly scummy. Who cares? He's one player, accept it and move on.

And, speaking of moving on - can you discuss BBmolla with me?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Yeah sure. My opinion of him has increased slightly as the day has gone on.

Okay, but why? Is it just because he townreads you? He spent a lot of the early day lurking and just throwing votes around. I have a scum read on him because of that.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Question CT, why is your vote still on camel?

I had sufficient cause to put it on; and I currently have insufficient cause to take it off. I explained my reasoning earlier when I voted, you can have a look at that in 219. camelCasedSnivy is doing a little better now, and I like the pressure on BBmolla, but again, it kind of follows what I'm criticizing him for - just very safe and neutral plays right now, following the wagon. (And, yes, technically he's the first vote, but BBmolla has been scum-read for a while now.)

That said, it's just a suspicion, if and when viable wagons do come up today; if they're not on camelCasedSnivy, I'll definitely think about joining one.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

That's it?

As far as I can tell, yup. Told you that you weren't going to like it. It's not a reveal and it's not a gotcha. It just is.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

What do you think of KKFC's posts today?

Do you see them coming from a mindset of 'I'm town, I want to go out and find scum', or do you see them in another light?

What do you think they are looking to achieve here?

Hah, no. If KKFC is scumhunting he is doing a terrible job of it. His only other scum read is Bazuf, and I don't really see the scumteam being you and Bazuf right now (though weirder things have happened.)

Would I vote KKFC? Maybe. Depends on whether or not I get that ISO of BBmolla.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Out of Camel/KKFC/BBMolla who is the most likely, and do you see any of these as potential pairings?

Sheer probability? BBmolla.

Maybe

a BBmolla / Camel scumteam, though I doubt it. My votes still on camelCasedSnivy, though - see my previous post for an explanation, I'm too lazy to go through with it again.

P-Edit: No, but high enough that I feel comfortable keeping the vote there. I can always change it in the event of a serious wagon.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

kk
suprisingly there is like no pressure on me given that you said you sr me

Now. If KKFC gets limmed today and turns scum, on the other hand, it will be a very different story.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

and at least one (I swear it was two?) going kkfc+me

One was kind of me, I withdrew the theory.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

it's literally not, I have a town role pm and you're voting me, your reads are bad, it's that simple lmfao

Ah, I see. You have a town role pm. Nevermind, I'm 100% convinced of your town status. I was on the fence before, but I guess now that you've said that not only are you town, you have a town role pm, I am convinced -

convinced!

- that you are not scum.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

We need CT around, they've been gone almost 2 days

Sorry, my attention was slightly diverted, but I'm slightly caught up now.
Currently, I'm actually kind of happy keeping my vote where it is. I'm not saying I don't scumread BBmolla right now, but I'm not sure that's my preferable elimination today. I'd rather eliminate someone who generates the maximum information for us, and that isn't BBmolla. My better picks for elimination is probably iamveryhappy, KKFC, or camelCasedSnivy. I'm going to do an iso of iamveryhappy/DragonEater70 and decide whether or not I'm willing to switch my vote.

Also, BBmolla,

pot

.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Okay...? Not sure why no one else is doing it, but, uh, first vote of Day 2 I guess.
VOTE: BBmollla
You wouldn't happen to want to explain that quickhammer of yours, would you? You hammered camelCasedSnivy within, what, half an hour of being at E-1 with no justification and no prior scumread?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

the soft as well

Wait, are we considering 606a soft? I don't even know what that is, but I don't think it's a soft. Or is there another soft I missed?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

What BB did was kinda irrational for scum if you think about it. Why reveal yourself like that when there was a happy lim on the table?

So, 1) WIFOM and 2) I wasn't aware behavior was too-scummy-to-be-scum. I'm not saying vote on him, I am saying that I want to put pressure on him to interact with the rest of us.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Gonna claim, checking something

If you're making the intent to claim, I'll withdraw to stop a flashhammer, but it's going right back on once you get CC'd or just vague claim.
UNVOTE: BBmolla

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I’m a mason

Can out my mason buddy if needed

That’s why I hammered, mason buddy and I thought it was the best bet

Okay, literally anybody want to contradict that?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I'd request outting of the partner, 2 basically Innocent Children right now is a good place to be.

Oh, yeah, because the Mafia needs two easy targets right now.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

You realize it lowers our lim pool, and if fake means 1 person counter's and we win right?

No one should counter until the second Mason is named.

I'm sorry, you're saying that no one should do anything until a second Mason outs themselves right now? You sure that's a good idea? Listen, I'm all for the power of confirmed town, but a lone Mason claim is just as good on D3 (because CC'd means elimination) so the Mason claim does not need to happen now to be fully effective.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

You realize it lowers our lim pool, and if fake means 1 person counter's and we win right?

No one should counter until the second Mason is named.

I'm sorry, you're saying that no one should do anything until a second Mason outs themselves right now? You sure that's a good idea? Listen, I'm all for the power of confirmed town, but a lone Mason claim is just as good on D3 (because CC'd means elimination) so the Mason claim does not need to happen now to be fully effective.

You are assuming that we Lim scum today, just FYI.

Fair enough. Still not sold on the concept, but ultimately, it's up to whoever the Mason partner is to out themselves or not.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Okay. And then there were five, huh?

ChicagoTypewriter
KatyKimFanClub
iamveryhappy
JasonWazza
Bazuf

Hmm. I've got fifty-fifty odds, then. Well, last time that went well for me, so let's hope it works this time as well. I'm going to need to run a few isos, I'll check back in a bit.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

One of these is true:

two scum were voting CT in that first votecount
CT is scum and their partner was bussing them
CT is scum with Bazuf
Bazuf is scum with someone on the CT wagon

Okay, I might be wrong about this, but I feel like there's merit to bringing back the iamveryhappy(DragonEater70)/KKFC scumteam reads? The question is which of them do we pick so that in the worst-case scenario they roll green, we assume the other one is town?

I think maybe iamveryhappy then? If they're town, no way a scum goes out to expose themselves like that defending them.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Also, knowing that iamveryhappy is or isn't scum gives some good analysis value to the Day 1 iamveryhappy wagon.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Happy/KKFC would have to be that team I think that's the only way I could make that make sense

Maybe. iamveryhappy being scum doesn't mean it's KKFC for sure, but it's definitely a move in the right direction. I'd like people's thoughts on this before we move forward, though.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

What pairing are you giving for Happy that isn't Happy/KFC?

If the assumption stands that they are both capable of being town, then the assumption must stand that KKFC may be town independent of iamveryhappy being scum though, again, it would be interesting. It is unlikely to be Bazuf, but actually, I find myself mildly suspicious of you for prioritizing a KKFC elimination over iamveryhappy repeatedly.
However, given you put iamveryhappy in E-1, this is not supremely likely.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Ah. Pagetop. Excellent.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

y'know, can you guys decide on the method of elimination?
yes I know it's by vote but
after I get voted what happens to me

Spanish Inquisition .

[ChicagoTypewriter]

This read feels a bit too bouncy for my taste, like they want to Town read KFC because it's their partner, but don't want to rule out the bus.

Okay, let me clarify this, and also put some of the earlier posts in the corrected order

72: Early slight scumread of KKFC.

118: Clarified position, still slight scumread.

136: Based on interactions (132), switched to a slight townread.

182: Slight townread

264: At this point, I shifted to nullread. 270 provides a little context for that, but basically I think I overreacted to shifting off the scumread and went for a townread when I should have gone to null.

304: Literally just an observation, has nothing to do with my reads.

325: Shifted slightly back to a scumread when Deltabreedy points out that KKFC hasn't been scumhunting well. Also based on lack of KKFC scumhunting since 182.

334: Literally just an observation, has nothing to do with my reads.

587: (Note the gap) I missed about 130 posts here, and while working on catch-up, determined I may be willing to vote for KKFC. Didn't actually vote, though.

I went from slight scum -> slight town -> null -> slight scum. I am currently at slight scum. Does that clarify things?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

587: What happened to the scumread on Bazuf from 182? I understand it was a while ago but what made camel a better vote at that point? I guess it would be the reasoning in 219 which is... good? (well, at least I had the same reasoning).

At that point, because of a lack of meaningful Bazuf interactions, I felt the useful information gained in the event of a green flip would be minimal.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

VOTE: JasonWazza. I knew something was up.

Hmm. I won't admit that isn't tempting, but I think I'll abstain from voting for now. I don't have anything to currently give me a concrete scum read on JasonWazza; and I'm currently debating the pros and cons of putting iamveryhappy up to E-1 to see what happens. But I think it's still a little early in the day for that.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

like
everyone says the chance of me being scum as an individual is high
question: HOW high? I don't really get why I'm so scummy

I think at least 60% of it is leftover reads from DragonEater70. I feel you, honestly, but a game's a game.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

The plot requires thickening.
VOTE: iamveryhappy

[ChicagoTypewriter]

UNVOTE: iamveryhappy

Not before the masons say so.

And suddenly my scumread of you and iamveryhappy has increased...

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Yeah it's not at all like you just enabled either KFC to hammer or Happy to selfhammer with that vote.

We are waiting for the Mason's, you jumping the gun here isn't a town move.

blink

Okay... your concerns about iamveryhappy self-hammering is just weird to me. (Why is it

ever

a good idea to self hammer and why are on people on this site obsessed with it?)

I'm genuinely not sure why you think that we shouldn't put someone at E-1 today. It's not a useful self-handicap from my perspective, it limits the amount of interactions and the amount of data we can get.

I imagine scum!Jason to easily let this slide and leave it be, so KFC could hammer, for example.
And then if happy flips town, would cause a mislim improving Jasons probabilities to win.

Ah, but this is true only

if

Jason were scum and iamveryhappy is town. Thus, if iamveryhappy flips green, we now have very good evidence that JasonWazza is town. However, a very good logical conditional to currently have.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

kkfc, ct, happy please provide lists from like Jason did

from town to scum spectrum

I'm not really working this a spectrum here so much as a probability chain of 'if X is scum, then these players are likely town and this player is likely scumpair', and my paranoia is getting to my ability to flesh out townreads. I'm going to need to do a deep dive to manufacture a proper list.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I've said that in my opinion a Scum!Jason would benefit from a hammer right now, whatever is the alignment of happy.

Your belief, not mine. If it was KKFC who hammered, then we wouldn't necessarily target him on Day 3 elimination, at least I certainly wouldn't.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

In fact I'm just thinking that if happy actually flips green, I'd much rather prefer that we lim Chicago on D-3 and go to EoL with KKFC and Jason...

Well, all things considered, I like this plan except I'd like to lim you at elo instead of me so we have a chance at Day 4. But I think that's just a case of personal preference.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

CT is very much trying to add Happy/JasonWazza as a scum team, and the obvious reason for this is that CT scum is in a bad place here, and needs to try and get any team they can added back to the list.

On the contrary - I'm in a very

good

position here. That maneuver of mine gave me some good information and allowed me to eliminate a few possibilities.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I really don't think you realize the situation that is actually happening, especially given what is likely going on in the mason PT.

Probably, I've never played in a mason game before. But I don't think you realize why I put iamveryhappy at E-1.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Ah. Okay, finally I have a good analysis. Let's crack this open. From my perspective, there are six possibilities of who the scum pair is. (It can't be the two Mason, I myself am eliminated. Thus, four players remain.)

• JasonWazza / Bazuf
  : Unlikely. In this case, JasonWazza would keep the vote on iamveryhappy and not have unvoted just now, as Bazuf pointed out.

• KatyKimFanClub / JasonWazza
  : Even less so. JasonWazza wouldn't have unvoted from the vote count just now, and this works under the assumption KKFC would have gone out of his way to shield iamveryhappy (DragonEater70) from an early elimination, despite being scum and drawing attention.

• KatyKimFanClub / Bazuf
  : Unlikely, see above on my note of KKFC's interaction with iamveryhappy. It make no sense if he's scum.

• iamveryhappy / KKFC
  : The OG theory. There's a lot that checks out with this one. And, honestly, I feel it's the most likely.

• iamveryhappy / JasonWazza
  : According to Bazuf, JasonWazza would be willing to bus-for-towncred here, keep silent, and allow KKFC / myself to take suspicion moving on. It's certainly true that a hammering KKFC, even on scum, would look like a bus-for-towncred attempt and would be a valid strategy. I'm not sure I would do it, but I'm not JasonWazza. More analysis needed, not certain of it.

• iamveryhappy / Bazuf
  : Maybe. Bazuf is townreading JasonWazza and promoting a iamveryhappy elimination, so I guess the gameplan would be D3 iamveryhappy -> D4 ChicagoTypewriter/KKFC -> D5(Bazuf, KKFC/ChicagoTypewriter, JasonWazza)? Plausible. But Bazuf was part of the E-1 group to iamveryhappy, having parked there quite early and not backing out despite several good chances to do so.

Oh, by the way, so I don't feel left out, let me do myself to.

• ChicagoTypewriter / Bazuf
  : No, he's trying to eliminate me in the event iamveryhappy flips green. Why go for that when JasonWazza is also a target?

• ChicagoTypewriter / KKFC
  : Same problem any KKFC/non-iamveryhappy has, moving on.

• ChicagoTypewriter / JasonWazza
  : If so, we did a horrible job of coordinating in the last few posts. Also, again, why would Jason unvote here?

• ChicagoTypewriter / iamveryhappy
  : (Somehow I think this is the most likely one here?) Hmm.

Where I am now:

I would like to see iamveryhappy eliminated today, he's my most likely target to be scum. In the very unlikely event that he flips green, I think (as

weird

as this sounds) that I would like to eliminate KKFC next, as of the remaining six possibilites, the most likely two involve him: KKFC/Bazuf, KKFC/ChicagoTypewriter (and, yes, I know its not me but that discussion can be saved for final elo). The other four: KKFC/JasonWazza, JasonWazza/Bazuf, ChicagoTypewriter/Bazuf, ChicagoTypewriter/JasonWazza; are all unlikely given the recent course of events.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I think that's pretty comprehensive...

[ChicagoTypewriter]

thank you Chicago, nice post, I'd love to hear more from happy and KKFC in similar manner

spoiler: I doubt you're going to get one from iamveryhappy. His interactions today have been basically non-existent and very shallow, I think he's trying to avoid giving away who he's partnered with by way of interaction.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Happy, why do you even play forum mafia?

what else do I do on a kindle? books are expensive, I'm poor.

You can most pre-copyright books for free via various source, like the Gutenberg project - for instance, the entirety of Arthur Conan Doyle and Jules Verne.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

2119. go there.

Okay, OOC serious moment:
1) The comment I made was intended to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, I did not mean that you should quit the game by it. If it caused offense, I apologize.
2) Part of the reasons 'no IRL' rules exist is so that we don't get into personal attacks with those kinds of justification and defenses. It doesn't end well for anyone involved.
3) If you genuinely aren't having any fun at this site or this game, maybe you should reconsider this or try to join a different time of game on this site. But I wouldn't recommend walking out on the game now - try to play it to the end.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

KKFC why are you clearing Bazuf? Is it based on your happy suspicion?

I was wondering about this too, actually.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Stop ninja'ing me you guys.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Scum to town:
happy
jason
bazuf
ct
masons

I'm flattered, but you still have Bazuf above JasonWazza? Can I get a reason for that?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I’m ready to go to night, did you guys want a few more days?

My vote was a last ditch effort to generate engagement, but I'm not sure what else I can do now. My vote stays.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I'm ready.

Medice, cura te ipsum

[ChicagoTypewriter]

@KatyKimFanClub

I think you're on the chopping block right now. What say you about this turn of events?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Yeah, so I guess we can wait for KKFC thoughts, then Jason, then I can share what myself and BB thought? You fine with that guys?

I'm fine with that.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Actually before we get Leek's thoughts, CT i don't honestly think we have a clean version of what you think, obviously KFC is Choice 1, who is Choice 2?

I think you are at this point, honestly. My analysis of iamveryhappy/Bazuf is that it wasn't a likely pairing given Bazuf's voting history; however JasonWazza/iamveryhappy ultimately has little in the way of definitive objections. However, this is assuming that KKFC flips green.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Actually before we get Leek's thoughts, CT i don't honestly think we have a clean version of what you think, obviously KFC is Choice 1, who is Choice 2?

I think you are at this point, honestly. My analysis of iamveryhappy/Bazuf is that it wasn't a likely pairing given Bazuf's voting history; however JasonWazza/iamveryhappy ultimately has little in the way of definitive objections. However, this is assuming that KKFC flips green.

Also, obviously, I'm not voting off the cuff on Day 4.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I literally told everyone my reads for tomorrow since it seems like I'm still getting voted today.

KKFC do some work too, c'mon man.

I think he means a deep analysis, not just '75/25'. For instance,

why

do you scumread me?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

If we're not using the quality or inherent truthfulness of my reads to establish whether I'm scummy or not why does it matter? The only thing that's relevant is the conclusion.

No, we are using the quality, I'm not sure why you think we aren't. The quality of your scumread on me is highly questionnable though and when I say 'highly questionnable' I mean we have this:

I remember Dragon/CT's first few pages seeming forced.

This is only post of yours which scumreads me after you townread me the highest of the remaining players:

Scum to town:
happy
jason
bazuf
ct
masons

Listen, if you

are

town, which it increasingly is seeming you aren't; then you want to win as town, which means giving the town the best possible chance at winning and that means leaving behind a read list. If you have a quality scum-read on me: then by all means say it.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Disagree. If I'm not around tomorrow either sheep me or ignore me those are really the only two options. If there's a chance I am though then I'll explain why I think CT is scum.

There will not be a chance for you to be around tomorrow unless you present a case, and if it is good, you may survive. That's why you haven't been eliminated yet, because both Bazuf and I want to hear what you have to say.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

... This is kind of weird. No, honestly, it's very weird. I don't understand JasonWazza at all.

The pushback here, honestly, isn't really called for - we have absolutely no reason to think that SzmarzLeek is lying about this, he is

literally

a mason, the point of being a mason is that we trust them on this call. Also, what is this nonsense about 'one player' - this is only a democracy when it comes to eliminating players. If an argument is good, it is good. If it is bad, it is bad. Why is there this weird obsession otherwise? I don't care how many players are masons either, but one or a million, it doesn't matter as long as the argument is coherent. Similarly, I don't care if a player flips town, this does not mystically make a bad argument sheep-worthy.

JasonWazza, you put iamveryhappy at E-1, true. But here's something I'm going to point out - you did it for a grand total of

11 hours

, between 7:42pm and 6:10am CST. That's not a lot of time and it's during a period of inactivity for a number of players - I personally wasn't even active then. More so, you switch from BBmolla to the iamveryhappy/DragonEater70 wagon claiming that you only did so

because

you weren't going to get the BBmolla lim you want, then you switch out of it

back

to BBmolla

when nothing has changed

, which as far as I'm concerned is troubling suspicious. You may talk the talk, but you haven't exactly walked the full walk.

But let's talk about you right now. Right now, you have a very simple call to make. Do you think I'm more scummy than KKFC? If the answer is yes, and judging from your frankly absurd reaction to BBmolla, than why not go for me right now? Or is it that you want the KKFC elimination today with the ChicagoTypewriter elimination in the pocket for elo?

Bazuf? BBmolla? Is JasonWazza's behavior here normal to you, or am I the only one who thinks the reaction here is a little overblown?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

On phone so not going to respond to everything, but I've made it clear i think it's about 60/40 between you and KFC, so slightly better then a coin flip, obviously I'm going to question behaviour that i think can lose us the game.

I'm going to wait for you to say everything you feel like, then. We've got time left in the day.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I played decent I believe. Me and my mason partner survived d1 and n1 + it was the firstly time ever I had a towny role. At least 7/10 play by me for a newbie.

Also not to shit on your parade, you and your Mason buddy decided not to lim the Roleblocker D1, to flash hammer a townie, and have basically sat on your Conf-Town status and done nothing with it, this is not a 7/10 play.

Like if town wins, it's in spite of the Mason's, not because of.

I am increasing believing you aren't town-aligned. Not, like, in the sense of scum (although we will see on KKFC's flip whether or not that's the case) but more of the fact that your behavior today isn't great. You have not a lot of places to start crowing about how great you are and how great you've played. Your current claim to fame is an 11 hour vote on a mafia Day 1. That's not brag-worthy.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

All the ad hominem attacks do nothing to further the gamestate, and if you are town, acting like KKFC has already been eliminated and flipped green

today

, on Day 3; instead of properly saving the argument for tomorrow is poor play. You are solving nothing.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

The POINT is seeing how the people who might not know my alignment react to my posts. You literally said you were going to take time to collect your thoughts and then hammered me 30 minutes after I got put at E-1. You do you.

Honestly, I sympathize with your play here. It ended up being a little too passive for the position you're in, but I respect the game.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

You know what? Screw it. Day's over, I'm achieving nothing right now by fighting. I'll save it for tomorrow if we have one, post game if we don't.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

And shouldn't have hammered before that was the case but that's a discussion for postgame.

You

do

understand how that sounds coming from someone who placed KKFC in E-1, right?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I expected Leek to actually GIVE information, so yeah i put KFC at E-1, Leek made it sound like they were going to actually give information, and not just overall thoughts

So you're whining about how little Leek is doing on the one hand, yet you were perfectly content to leave the day's decision up to his discretion. Do you not see how that comes across as slightly hypocritical?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Okay, so are we going to discuss things...? I'm willing to take a deep breath, step back, and iso; but I'm not going to do it if people are just going to go straight in off-the-cuff.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Okay, so from my perspective, both of you were on the DragonEater70 E-1 bandwagon for Day 1, so by necessity, one of the scum was in fact voting for the roleblocker, which seems a little odd, to be certain, but once you have eliminated everything else, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth.

I'm be very surprised if the Day 1 nightkill was anything other than an attempt to eliminate town pr. Why wasn't BBmolla targeted? Well, there's a number of likely reasons for it, so I'll keep that assumption, and then the Day 2 and Day 3 nightkills were bog-standard once the Masons came out, so nightkill analysis will get us all nowhere, I think we can agree on that.

It seems somewhat weird for Town!CT to need to talk this out, but Scum!CT would want to keep his options open in case I decide to turn onto Bazuf.

I'm not actually sure this is weird, I think it's very standard for town to want to spend time during elo. There was no chance of me voting you off the cuff, unless you decided to come at me first, but given that hasn't happened, I suppose it's elo time.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

So, if you're ok, I'd like to hear your theories/questions first, and then I'll present my own.

I feel like I want to hear from you first, given that JasonWazza and I have both approximately tripled your post count. I don't have a lot to go on and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the current gamestate.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Parked vote on Camel for D1.

I still think it was an appropriate move under the circumstances, though I don't appreciate the flash-hammer that the Masons pulled.

Vote and unvote BB start of D2 (i did the same thing so this is kinda a non-issue)

Yup. Vote was appropiate.

Placed Happy in self-hammer range with a vote.

I'm not sure why you're using 'self-hammer' as a euphemism for E-1, but whatever. I stand by that vote too, it let me determine that iamveryhappy was scum.

Also regarding this part specifically, Happy was always going to be my backup wagon, if BB doesn't quick hammer, and we play that out normally, there is a decent chance Happy gets limmed D1 instead.

Interesting. I iso'd you, but that wasn't the impression I got that iamveryhappy was your backup wagon. Could you clarify this?

More relevant to think about are the exchanges between Chicago and Dragon.
Dragon voted on Chicago (maybe still kinda RVS??)
And Chicago said that there were plenty of reasons to find Dragon scummy.
If they were scum partners would they do that?

While this, Dragon is being put to E-1 and Egix doesn’t say anything…
And Jason enters the game, and votes Leek, not addressing the wagon on Dragon/happy…

I remember thinking the Leek vote was very odd, but I chalked it up to JasonWazza being a newcomer to the gamestate, and now I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't have. It's certainly odd, but not definitively odd.

Jason you said that happy was your backup wagon, and that seems a fairly convenient thing for scum to say.
I honestly was not seeing much of a case for a BB wagon and the chances were fairly better for a happy wagon.
So at this point I’m leaning towards a scum!Jason.

Chicago, what do you think?

I have the same concern about this that you do, this seems to be a rather safe assertion at this stage of the game without much evidence, though that evidence is an E-1 vote; while BBmolla was active and scumreading iamveryhappy, risking a possible hammer (though the vote was withdrawn). Still, all things considered and by that I mean JasonWazza's behavior on Day 3 especially, I'm leaning towards a scum!Jason.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Like seriously, you all need to start using your vote more.

No, I don't think so, though this might be a playstyle clash. One of my concerns right now is some behavior of yours which is coming across as scummy to me might just be a playstyle variation.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Also why are you so focused on trying to work out if CT is onboard with Jason!Scum rather then just going based on your read?

Are you worried that CT might end up voting you instead of me?

Why do you not want Bazuf and I to discuss things?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

VOTE: Bazuf

Not scum, called it.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

VOTE: Bazuf

Not scum, called it.

Sorry, by that I mean

I'm

not scum. Obviously.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

After this there it's hard to definitively say where things would have gone had BB not quick-hammered, but unless there was major support in a BB wagon, Happy is my preference for who gets limmed in this case.

Okay, but you don't really indicate this that much. Your reads more paint happy in the picture of 'fine if limmed' not 'second choice to wagon'. Here's my perspective:

And since i should probably commit to my reads at some point, no ordering is present outside of the groupings
...
Null:
CT
Happy

Lean Scum:
KFC

Scum:
BB

I think our readlists mostly align at this point, if you were to bump CT up a notch, Bazuf down a notch and Happy into lean scum.

Most of these are fair, just curious though with the Happy read, is this based on the slot itself, or mostly partner equity?

Just did a count of where it feels like votes are going to parcel out, and i don't think i'm getting the BB lim i want in any world.

UNVOTE: BBmolla
VOTE: iamveryhappy

This is E-1

@Delta, we really need to do BB first, i don't like how this is looking at all, i'm fine with Happy tomorrow, but BB is misrepresenting everything so bad it ain't funny

UNVOTE: iamveryhappy
VOTE: BBMolla

See what I mean?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Also what exactly from my Day 3 is that scummy?

Okay, let's talk your Day 3, which is by far the largest reason I scumread you right now. You essentially act all of Day 3 like I'm the scum at the game to the point where it seems like you're obstinate that it's not possible that I wouldn't be scum if KKFC flips green and you also spend part of the day at Leek's throat without actually providing a good counterargument and being downright antagonistic to anyone not within your worldview, which is everyone else at the table. I'm also not happy with you voting for KKFC, but so did Bazuf, so I hold that equally against you two.

Also, am I just blind, or did you ever properly explained why you scumread me on Day 3?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

But if you check Bazuf, there is a new issue, Bazuf is on the wagon, 2 votes, and with how he was lurking D1, he came back to Happy having already been at E-1 and having no real way to change his options and posts the following.

Bazuf's E-1 post is interestingly scummy in nature, the assumption being that a hammer wouldn't occur and thus it being perfectly safe is interesting, and then alongside the theory that Bazuf simply was never active while a good time to pull the vote was there is interesting, but you would think a scum would be a lot more careful about that prospect, especially with a roleblocker partner.

Personally i don't really read that as a townie being happy that their scum read is being limmed, this reads more like scum having seen what's occured after the fact, and kind of just accepting that they are going to lose their partner.

Okay, but why post it though? Kind of reads like a convincer to me that other people should vote for happy.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I actually agree, no need to promote a hammer when the final decision of the day should come from the masons...


I imagine scum!Jason to easily let this slide and leave it be, so KFC could hammer, for example.
And then if happy flips town, would cause a mislim improving Jasons probabilities to win.

Next day I’d be probably be targeted, causing a second mislim and a scum!Jason win.

I don't see why would scum!Jason argue against this, unless the scum team is happy/Jason, which I find highly unlikely.
And even so, I think scum!Jason would let this roll, because probably next day we’d target KFC, and EoL would be Jason/CT/Bazuf and in that scenario I’d probably vote on CT…

So this makes me believe that Jason is town.

Bazuf, I present to you your own argument as to why JasonWazza is town and I shouldn't vote him. What say you?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I'm not rushing CT at all just to be clear, he has all the time he needs.

Let the record show that, in fact, you definitely are, not in word but in deed.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

941: Wait is your point that i was trying to protect Happy?

The fuck are you on about?

You were trying to push a KKFC/CT scumpair on Day 3. Just saying.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Just to be clear, me voting is not rushing anything, if anything it's to give who i believe is town more time to analyze from a confirmed nature.

... okay, I'm really starting to think we aren't playing the same game here.

No.

It is literally the

opposite

of that. The optimal strategy for town to win in Mafia is to

generate meaningful social interactions

to drive out the scum. Elo interactions with every player attempting to figure out the scum generates these because (optimally) the scum will try to use tools to get both players to vote for each other while trying to look like they are scumhunting or else laser lock on one player and paint them as scum.

When you vote, you have

stripped

the game of that. I am confirmed town, so now scum!Bazuf and town!Bazuf currently have

identical

interactions with me. You have done nothing to further the game, you have locked it down now to what is currently on the board and nothing can be done to further it. This is bad.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

But again, my paranoia is in overdrive because I know I'm town, and I think I need to fully re-analyze this game from the start because of that.

You know what, i might regret this call, but i'm going to make it, CT reads more town to me right now, and like he is actively trying to work out who is town and who is scum, whereas Bazuf feels like he is just trying to see who is agreeable, and BB/Leek have made me question my CT read enough that i'm gonna make the call.

Well this is my playstyle, I don't see the need to drag an ELO on like you 2 seem to, if I feel I know who scum is, I am going to vote (and to be clear, scum me would also vote at around the same time, I'm not saying this vote timing is actually indicative of anything).

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Just to be clear CT, I don't think Scum!Bazuf and Town!Bazuf would be the same here either, one is trying to deceive you, one isn't, and also one can give a Town motivated reasoning for all their actions, and the other can struggle with this fact.

Currently, moving forward, the play is identical. Any question I asked will be town justified and anything about you will be scum-indicative. It is simply analysis of the prior gamestate, and I will be blunt here - I don't have enough analysis of the prior gamestate; and both of you were perfectly willing to put the Roleblocker at E-1.

You see what I have to deal with? I'd rather the scum have voted for me so I wouldn't have to decypher this.

Fine. Questions. Let's get this game solved.

@JasonWazza: Why would Bazuf put a Roleblocker at E-1 and keep his vote there for the entirety of E-1? Why would Bazuf argue strongly that you were town when there was the almost inevitability of an elo with [CT, Bazuf, JasonWazza] and then turn around and try to make a play for

you

when you've clearly been scum-reading me the previous day?

@Bazuf: Why would JasonWazza put a Roleblocker at E-1 when there were clearly players willing to hammer (i.e. CT, BBmolla)? Why would JasonWazza limit his options and just vote directly for me?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Post 3: Still the damn truth.

Links, plz. Show me the elos where you voted quickly.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

keeping it there and lurking ends up being good cover for both mafia members in the case that one of them gets limed.

Okay, so you admit that voting for a mafia while at E-1 is good strategy. Just checking.

That play was basically required due to Leek coming out that the Mason's thought it was me, he doesn't have a free stroll into a win because of that, because if he does decide to just go for the vote on you, it potentially backfires if i start reading into CT town, so he has to start gauging who is more likely to vote who, rather then who is scum.

Required? Are you joking? Bazuf started off arguing

against

me back in Day 2 that you were town, which isn't something smart for scum, I would have been perfectly content eliminating you

yesterday

given the right circumstances. As for the masons: a) Who cares? and b) So what?

You

argued the masons were lying about me, why wouldn't Bazuf just make use of that.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

because if he does decide to just go for the vote on you, it potentially backfires if i start reading into CT town, so he has to start gauging who is more likely to vote who, rather then who is scum.

This kind of feels like what happened to you, to be honest. You went for the CT elimination, then Bazuf scumread me, so you backpedaled.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

OK so this took longer then i thought to even find one game, forgot an annoying quirk in my style in that i tended to be shot a lot as town.

You know, it's kind of funny because I found this as well:
viewtopic.php?p=13806060#p13806060

Seems like we have a precedent for you voting early and scum victories. Just saying.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Okay, real talk though:
@JasonWazza: Either sell me on why scum!Bazuf doesn't try for the CT elimination or get limmed.

@Bazuf: See prior questions.

No rushed answers, I'm going to disappear, do an analysis maybe, and come back here in like ... let's call it 36 hours or so to check up on this.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

That's absolutely arguable.
If I was scum, I'd NK Chicago and would go to ELO Bazuf/Jason/Leek… Leek/BB thought it was Jason, so he probably vote for Jason on ELO too.

He's clearly misrepresenting Leek/BB conclusions... they didn't cleared Chicago, they scumread Jason, which is kinda different.

Oh, you're around. Good.
Elo like that seems a bit risky given how textbook of an elimination Leek is and that would put suspicion on you. Then again, you could always argue WIFOM that scum!JasonWazza pulled a substandard elimination in order to do that.
Hmmm...

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Okay, in lieu of anyone updating, I shall now cast my vote as it lies.

JasonWazza, your early game was commendably townie, however, let us face the facts - your behavior in Day 3 and Day 4 weren't. It's not that your posts don't make sense, it's that you seem to flip flop positions on a consistent basis with little justification for the switches. You scum-read me hard all of Day 3 with little justification, fought the mason on it, and after seeing that Bazuf wasn't going to scum read me, you pulled a 180 on Day 4 and tried to rush him. On top of that, you claim that this helps my position - it does not. The game is locked right now to a tug of war.

Bazuf, for his part, had easier ways of scum victory if he was scum. He might have chosen this one, but if he did with good ol' WIFOM logic I'm not going to try and guess that.

Ultimately, for me anyway, what it comes down to is just a reading of the current gamestate, and like I stated earlier, JasonWazza - I just don't find you town right now.

Once more, I shall cry

alea iacta est

!

VOTE: JasonWazza

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Thanks for covering for me, BB! Bazuf might have gone after me without your backing.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

And BB/Leek put me into a shit spot by calling out that CT was clearly town, without giving much info, and i assumed that you could read and find how CT was town (i thought it was fairly obvious that CT was town, whereas not so obvious that you were town.)

I'm not actually sure why this is? I mean, I knew I was town, but I didn't vote for iamveryhappy until it was basically obvious that he was going to get limmed.