Newbie 2125 - Postgame

[Deltabreedy]

First

VOTE: ChicagoTypewriter

[Deltabreedy]

Eh, I do this all the time in my games.

[Deltabreedy]

If I weren't busy getting burned to a crisp on what I think was the last day of British sunshine this year, I'd be drawn to the same conclusion as BBMolla.

The only counter is arguably they're town hunting, but that comes from vibes and analysis not proactivity and asking questions.

Dragon - Scumlean - derailing RVS, not scumhunting.
Molla - Townlean because I agree with them

UNVOTE: Chicago
VOTE: Dragon

@Chicago: How did you feel about being at E-2 so soon?

@Camel: Can you explain why you're unvoting and waiting for a response to your question on OP's before sharing thoughts on what is developing here?

[Deltabreedy]

Also I think they're referring to this post, which goes over a few basics and includes links to further reading material on the game, Camel.

Egix do feel free to correct me on that.

[Deltabreedy]

@Camel: Neither of your posts (#36 and #41) actually answered my question.

Can you explain why you're unvoting and waiting for a response to your question on OP's before sharing thoughts on what is developing here?

I'm referring to BBMolla and I's push on Dragon, in case it's unclear.

[Deltabreedy]

What you described there was reactivity, not proactivity.

Also, there's nothing to question but you generated a whole spiel on BBMolla when it came to your #13? What you're saying and what you're doing don't marry up.

My vote stays on Dragon for now. I'd encourage more to vote here as well.

[Deltabreedy]

@Chicago: How did you feel about being at E-2 so soon?

Hmmm. This

is

only my third game, but it is kind of weird, though I don't know how much attention people pay to RVS to know that it was putting me to E-2. If Egix96 was going for an early mislim and try to pass it off as a mistake ... I don't know, it doesn't seem like a smart scum play. Of course, it's not exactly a smart town play either, that's the kind of joke you pull as a second vote, a third vote is a bit suspicious. SmarzLeek's counter play is fairly standard. Of course, I'm still at E-3, so it's now two serious votes away from E-1, which is a position to be in one Day 1, certainly.

Are we out of RVS stage yet?

I wanted to know how you felt about it on more of an emotional level to be honest.

[Deltabreedy]

What happened to 'My vote stays on BBMolla'?

/ninja'd:

In reference to the blue text:

You say that there is nothing for you to question, but in your post 13 you managed to conjure up a whole-ass argument against BBMolla and justify a vote against them. You've since abandoned the wagon for what feels like very tenuous reasoning after committing to it and seeming to scumread BBMolla which feels like you're performatively aligning to counter what we're saying about your proactivity in scumhunting.

The issue I have is that you're trying to take credit for ending RVS early, when to be honest everyone was talking about Chicago being at E-2 before this exhange between you and BBMolla heated up - and that you're trying to claim ownership of pushing us out of RVS feels like a performative attempt to score townpoints.

[Deltabreedy]

Why are you defending Dragon?

[Deltabreedy]

So again, why are you defending Dragon?

[Deltabreedy]

For context I will keep asking until you actually answer the question.

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah

[Deltabreedy]

So again, why are you defending Dragon?

Because I thought a lot of the reads against him were somewhat bogus? I feel like my defenses of Dragon speak for themselves no?
Do you seriously think it's Me/Dragon?

Was in response to this

Yeah

[Deltabreedy]

You're defending Dragon whilst trying to say you don't town or scumread them.

All I've done is ask why.

[Deltabreedy]

Kinda silly and goofy that it's illicited this reaction.

[Deltabreedy]

You're putting your fingers in your ears and holding your breath because I've asked you why you're defending dragon.

A better question: Why aren't you scumcasing Bazuf/Camel according to your scumreads? All you've done is defend dragon - you aren't even voting for one of your scumreads.

[Deltabreedy]

Quote for notification

You're putting your fingers in your ears and holding your breath because I've asked you why you're defending dragon.

A better question: Why aren't you scumcasing Bazuf/Camel according to your scumreads? All you've done is defend dragon - you aren't even voting for one of your scumreads.

UNVOTE: Dragon
VOTE: KatyKimFanClub

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah kinda keen on your thoughts Chicago.

[Deltabreedy]

Best way to find out is to vote them and find out, Chicago.

[Deltabreedy]

You're defending Dragon whilst trying to say you don't town or scumread them.

All I've done is ask why.

You're pretty deliberately refusing to connect the dots here and I have no interest in continuing this conversation because of that.

Also isn't it weird that so soon into the game Katy is looking to discontinue the discussion rather than engage with it?

Am I supposed to now be convinced of your townhood? Here's why I think you're scum:

- You've gone ahead and chainsaw defended someone
- You've gone on to show that you don't even TR them, instead painting them as null
- You've indicated two people (Bazuf/Camel) that you think are scum, but aren't drafting a case on them or really doing anything to clarify your read
- You're trying to discredit my arguments against you without anything to back it up, and you're hiding from the fight.

@Everyone: What would be the motivation for Town!Katy to shut down this discussion? Me suspecting them is only going to continue - why not engage and nip it in the bud? I don't see why Town!Katy would disengage in this way specifically. It reads to me more like Scum!Katy evading the fight and hoping that people just don't put much credence in it.

Anyone else feel like getting in on this action?

Ninja'd

Yeah Nah Chicago I was totally referring to Katy

[Deltabreedy]

How can it be 'feverish town hysteria' if you scumread two of the slots on the wagon?

Scumslip detected

[Deltabreedy]

Well that's not what you said, is it now?

[Deltabreedy]

Theres that sense of humour, nice and intact Leek

[Deltabreedy]

I asked them why they were defending
They responded with a critique of the people that were pushing on Dragon
I asked them again, since the answer wasn't a response to my question
They answered
I moved onto another line - why they weren't putting together a case.

That I had to prompt them each time to illicit an answer, and that they tried to shut down discussion in between those events suggests to me a non-town-aligned motivation for their posts.

[Deltabreedy]

If you're going to attempt to denounce my argument, please do work to ensure that it's derived from an accurate timeline of what happened and when.

[Deltabreedy]

Apologies, that was a dickhead of a post by me. My bad

[Deltabreedy]

Nothing I've said is false.

Shutting down discussion:

*snip*
You're pretty deliberately refusing to connect the dots here and I have no interest in continuing this conversation because of that.

Yeah, you explained why you're defending Dragon - here's the thing:

I think you're lying.

So no, I won't fuck off as you've so impolitely asked - get a grip of yourself. Appeal to emotion won't work on me and I doubt (read: hope) it won't work on others.

Every question I've asked you has been direct, to the point, and has been an extension of points previously asked about. You're getting pissy because I've held you to account on answering my questions.

[Deltabreedy]

lmao

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah go on then - I'll back myself in a wagon against you. I don't throw my toys out the pram when I get a question I don't like:

[Deltabreedy]

I don't hate KKFC, but for some reason they've taken exception to being asked questions.

It's horrendously immature and it's led to this whole 'is this [insert education here]?' trope. It's a nice screen to be honest.

@Camel: Since you scumread KKFC, fancy voting for them?

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*
I know this is perhaps a weird thing to advocate for, but Deltabreedy, would you mind stepping away from the game for a few hours to cool your head and try to de-escalate the situation? Also, KatyKimFanClub, kind of the same to you, though I get you didn't start this.
*snip*

No.

And insinuating that I've started something is pretty disingenuous. I've just been asking questions with natural progression, and that's kind of how the game is played.

Trust me, if I needed to cool my head, I'd go and do it.

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*
Apology accepted. I get that it might have looked to you like I wasn't doing the work, but I did try.

Cheers. Yeah nah like I say the progression was moving from why they defended to why they weren't scumhunting or advocating for their scumreads.

[Deltabreedy]

So you're deliberately ignoring the progression in my questions?

I can point it out for you (as I have done in a post for someone else already), or you can go and find it yourself. Which would you prefer?

[Deltabreedy]

Or even better, I want you to quote every question I have asked and tell us all exactly how I was searching for a different answer.

If you're going to misrepresent me, you're going to have to show your working.

[Deltabreedy]

I get the sense that you're not willing to put the work in to read my posts Chicago. No worries. I'm an amiable chap, so here you go:

I asked them why they were defending
-

'Why are you defending Dragon? #91

They responded with a critique of the people that were pushing on Dragon
-

#94

I asked them again, since the answer wasn't a response to my question
-

#94 wasn't a why, it was more objective. I wanted to know quite specifically, why they were defending Dragon. #96 & #97

They answered
-

'Because I thought a lot of the reads against him were somewhat bogus?' #99

Some stuff inbetween - KKFC tries to discredit (and also tries what looks like a fake townslip) by insinuating that what I suspect (Dragon/KKFC team) would be daft. Like cool but that doesn't prove anything? They then start this spiel of me not engaging with them, despite my posts on them having quite clear progression. They're getting a bit antsy for whatever reason so I reiterate in #107 that all I have done up until now is ask them why they were defending Dragon.

They make an attempt to shut down the discussion in #110, backing down from the conversation whilst attempting to discredit my character - claiming that I'm refusing to connect the dots. I don't know why they did this. Maybe it's scum!KKFC looking to disengage because I've hit the spot, it could well be town!KKFC looking to avoid TvT, but the reason I lean scum is because the misrepresentation of my questions has been prevalent basically since I started asking them, and it's kind of annoying that this narrative has taken hold. It's a false narrative.

Every question I asked them has had progression from the one before it.

I moved onto another line - why they weren't putting together a case.
-

So here I call them out in #111, by asking them why they aren't developing their scumreads on Bazuf and on Camel. They've at this point put a lot of energy into discreditting my perfectly legitimate questions without at this point doing any scumhunting.

That I had to prompt them each time to illicit an answer, and that they tried to shut down discussion in between those events suggests to me a non-town-aligned motivation for their posts.

Now with post links and context in Bold!

--

You should vote for KKFC now.

[Deltabreedy]

Again for those of you in the back:

The narrative that I'm asking the same question over and over is false. I repeated a question once, when it wasn't answered.

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*
@Delta, who's your number 2 for scum?

If it's still dragon, who is the scummier of the two?
*snip*

I reckon Dragon is the partner off what I've seen so far.

Tbh I could take a lim on either of them. I think I'd lean more towards a KKFC lim right now, because they've worked real hard to spread a false narrative about me continually asking questions and manufacture conflict where to be honest, there was none.

They've gone through the spectrum from misrepresenting my questions, to attempting to shut down discussion, to getting a bit lairy and unpleasant in a pretty poor appeal to emotion to what, voting for someone they apparently don't scumread?

None of it screams town motivation to me. It just doesn't make sense.

--

*snip*

Deltabreedy

: Seriously, lay off of KKFC and interact with someone else. You're tunneling right now, and have been doing so for like 20 posts. I don't think you're scum because scum would do something smarter, but you're not very townie right now.
*snip*

You're funny.

I've asked them three questions and I have then had to continually correct the misinformation and the false narrative that they and others (including yourself) have put forward since.

Do better.

[Deltabreedy]

I've never lied about you, so you can correct the record on that nice and sharpish. #170 was directed at the whole town, not just you - you've got some real bad main character syndrome if you're thinking it was about you.

91 - Question to KKFC
111 - Question to KKFC
121 - Question to everyone that isn't KKFC which is pretty obvious.
123 - Rhetorical: They scumslipped. The question wasn't one that was to be answered - it made my point clear.
126 - Continuation of the discussion which was following on from my questions

Each one was a development on the last - I wasn't looking for a different answer to the same question, I was asking a different question after getting an answer.

So yeah, you're spreading a false narrative that I'm tunnelled on KKFC because I could have sworn you said I've been at them for 20 posts.

If you want to go on about ignoring stuff, your response to #169 was basically 'No'. Nothing more, not pointing out holes in my logic, just no.

Are you arguing with me in good faith or just because it's something to do - you've got 3 scumreads right now but you're dancing around generating a full case on them or trying to sort them out. You haven't even put a vote down yet. Why?

You also include KKFC as a scumread, but then later on in #182 you have them as one of 2 marginal townreads. What have you seen that I haven't, because you offer no explanation here as to why KKFC has gone from Scumread to Townread.

[Deltabreedy]

'not certain anyone is capable of arguing with you in good faith'.

Say what you have to say.

Still ignoring #169 by the way.

[Deltabreedy]

Are you doing this deliberately?

[Deltabreedy]

What do you hope to achieve with this pompous persona you're playing to?

169 is a response to 168. I laid it out nice and clear for you since you were unwilling to look at the substance of my progression.

[Deltabreedy]

And again, say what you have to say. You're obviously pretty intent on getting into a ruckus so you may as well get it all out your system now.

Ninja'd: Perfect.

[Deltabreedy]

Chicago I asked you why you're not casing your scumreads. What are you looking to gain from this immature bit of chat?

You've also not really told me any reasons to not go for KKFC, either by poking holes in my case or by casing someone else - what is your game here?

[Deltabreedy]

Here's where I stand at present, in order.

Town

Me

Egix/Jason - Not really had any bad vibes from this slot. The interaction with me in #140 and #160 felt inquisitive and natural. Jason I'm less sure of because they just exude town vibes even as scum but I'm content for now in this read.

Szmarzleek - The vibes are there but their reads are damn near opposite to mine so that winds the read back from town to just above null.

Null

BBmolla - Not really seeing much in the way of justification. The vote on Egix I find a bit weird - I think they're using their vote for pressure but with no real channel to direct that pressure, making it a bit of a null endeavour.

Bazuf - Yeah nah need more

Camel - I feel like their contributions are absurdly minimal for the volume of posts they've put out.

ChicagoTypewriter - I get the sense that they're just trying to pontificate and show off that you're better than people. I don't know what your problem is but you're currently being as useful as a chocolate teapot. I assume you're going to calm down with it and come back to the game having gotten this little streak out your system but when you do - it'd be good if you stop deliberately ignoring my arguments and looking to cause shit.

Scum

Dragon:
This 'Townread' is too powerful for page 2, feels like Dragon is informed (therefore, Mafia).
The post where I state that I think they're playing for townpoints.

KKFC:
This post outlines much of my case on KKFC.

--

Can someone come at me with a -reasonable- argument and not just ad hominem or pseudo-intellectual conjecture as to why I should re-evaluate my Dragon and KKFC reads?

[Deltabreedy]

BBmolla - Not really seeing much in the way of justification. The vote on Egix I find a bit weird - I think they're using their vote for pressure but with no real channel to direct that pressure, making it a bit of a null endeavour.

was Dragon not the leading wagon for a while?

Did Bazuf not post immediately after I voted them?

Did Egix not replace out immediately after I voted them?

idk why ya'll are acting like I'm not doing anything, I'm trying to get all the variables here so we have the whole picture.

UNVOTE:

I mean - Bazuf posted after they were prodded.
Egix has siteflaked and gone on V/LA so I don't think you can really say that means anything.

Dragon was the leading wagon, sure - but the others? I mean sure you could argue that your vote had an effect but I think that'd be factually misleading.

I think Jacob's reasoning is perhaps faulty but your vote was originally for pressure - can you expand on why the leek vote has pinged you to the point of re-voting them so soon?

Can I get your thoughts on KKFC and your thoughts on CT?

[Deltabreedy]

I'll case them for you tomorrow.

If you disagree, can you commit now to pointing out where and why?

[Deltabreedy]

You know that you have to back up why the reasoning isn't legitimate, right? You can't just say it's illegitimate and have that stand as God's honest truth.

CT oughtn't have to coach you in what is a good townie post - it should be natural but all you've really done is:

Defend Dragon without holding a scumread on them
Double down on a defence when challenged
Attempted to cut off discussion on the subject by swerving into an antagonistic argument, and also through an apparently frustrated appeal to emotion
Voted for me out of what seemed to be frustration, but now you scumread me for... what exactly?

I get the sense that there's no effort going into scumhunting here, but I'll with-hold that as a direct critique of your play until after you explain why you scumread me.

--

On a more objective level - it's optimal for town to lim D1, even if it's a mislim. Not limming means that on a semantic level, scum retain total control over the first kill and can guide the narrative from there, but also on a mechanical through a series of mathematics that doesn't feel intuitive means it's significantly more likely for us to find ourselves in a lim-or-lose scenario much easier. An SE with some more experience than I can flesh that out because I can't recall exactly how that works.

--

@BBMolla: Jason is making some really good points and I'm starting to see what they're saying. Can you lean into giving us more of a view on why you're doing what you're doing because it does feel like you're actively lurking.

@Happy: Can we get a readslist once you're all caught up? For context, at present I think your slot is scum alongside KKFC.

[Deltabreedy]

My questions were different each time, exploring a new part of what I wanted to ask. I've pointed this out numerous times.

--

I'm scumreading you because you're doing things that I think are very scummy.

You're scumreading me because I disagree with you and I asked you a few tough questions.

--

So far, you've used several logical fallacies and rhetoric devices in place of any genuine scumhunting or any reasonable analysis.

Appeal to emotion
Appeal to majority
Discrediting my character as idiotic
You've also attempted to continually reinforce the narrative that I asked you the same question over and over.

If you are town - like genuinely if you're town, just consider how damaging this gameplay is and how badly it's getting in the way of good scumhunting. None of what you've posited this game has come from a place of arguing in good faith.

Honestly if you continue with this I'll advocate for a lim on you and not care which way the flip goes, because you being in the game and continuing on this path is distracting at best and an outright blocker at worst.

Ninja'd by everyone: Lmao okay I think KKFC is just a troll

[Deltabreedy]

Nah okay I'll nibble:

It's crazy the number of things I can say that are correct that people just ignore because they think I'm scummy or they're just scum. Shouting out into the void in this game.

List the things that you have said that are objectively correct. I'm nice and open-minded and if they are verifiably true I'll pay them the appropriate attention.

If you're BS-ing then I will actually tunnel you into the ground until one of us is limmed.

[Deltabreedy]

'Ive said a lot of things that are correct but I can't list them or point them out'

In what world does this comes from town?

[Deltabreedy]

In your own words I'm refusing to read between the lines

So for context I'm asking you to make it easy for me to see where you're coming from

And you're refusing to make the things you've said that are true easy to read for everyone

--

Are you okay?

[Deltabreedy]

My words speak for themselves.

Oh honey

They really don't

[Deltabreedy]

Okay, can someone who isn't just going to bury their head in the fucking sand step up and help us all out with what KKFC has said that's true?

[Deltabreedy]

I've argued from logic
I've extended an olive branch
I've even said I'll consider what you post with an open-minded eye

--

I don't see why Town!KKFC would refuse the 2nd and 3rd parts of this. The first one can be stubbornness and god knows I've been there done that, but I just don't see why Town!KKFC would disnegage from me asking for clarification.

[Deltabreedy]

From memory we've played two games together

In the first game you tunnelled me until I claimed tracker as tracker
In our second game you replaced in as scum

I don't know if you have enough of a wide band of experience with me to say you normally have a good read on me tbh

[Deltabreedy]

KFC: can i get your reads on the other people in the game, since your not really trying to interact super hard with anyone, surely you have pretty solid reads.

Scumreads: on Bazur and Deltabreedy
Kinda scummy-ish: camel
Mixed: on Dragon/iamveryhappy
Town: Leek, Egix/JasonWazza, CT, Bb (at this point I think Bb is just a little town leaning)

Cool, you going to post what you said that was true yet or are you still cooling off?

Jason can you ask him for me, might mean more coming from you

[Deltabreedy]

Okay, can someone who isn't just going to bury their head in the fucking sand step up and help us all out with what KKFC has said that's true?

Yeah, but you're not going to like it.

44
Dragon's reasoning in 44 is sort of what I'm talking about. I'm not sure there's a reasonable response as town to a page 1 "real vote" OMGUS.

So again, why are you defending Dragon?

Because I thought a lot of the reads against him were somewhat bogus? I feel like my defenses of Dragon speak for themselves no?
Do you seriously think it's Me/Dragon?

The main reason I'm so pressed is because I'm reading Dragon's messages and I genuinely do not see what 4 other people are voting for. ... My defense of Dragon is pointing out that he's not nearly as scummy as he seems because a rereading of his posts shows that a lot of the original wagon pretenses seem to be misread. I don't have to think he's confirmed town or anything to defend him, I just need to think that this vote is worse than other votes we can have today.

Continuing on to the second part of your paragraph. I'm sort of obligated to defend DragonEater if I don't scumread him and he gets put at E-1. I personally wasn't seeing a lot of the reasons for voting Dragon that others were claiming and it also bothered me that people were sheeping those opinions (thus, the comment on collective town hysteria). Yes, there is a lot of "I don't like this" in my previous posts, but hopefully when you understand what I'm doing from my perspective those "don't likes" make more sense. There's a lot about this wagon that doesn't add up to me and I'm trying to poke holes in it before I move on to producing other reads. Why did I do that? I guess because I felt urgently that we needed to talk more about the votes and because Dragon was much less scummy to me than everyone else in the game.

tl;dr KKFC think DragonEater70 isn't scummy and doesn't like the reads of people who do. He has remained very consistent on this fact, though he doesn't really seem to tr DragonEater70 either, it's more of a 'there are more scummy people out there' kind of a thing.
If you're looking for 'true' in the sense of 'reads you agree with', you aren't going to be getting anything from that.

--

That's it?

It's been a constant since they answered my questions earlier that they don't find Dragon scummy.

That's not an objective truth though, it can just as easily come from scum as it can town.

Is that the big 'gotcha' moment? I'm kind of disappointed.

--

I'm getting pretty majorly fucked off now at KKFC trying to say I'm gaslighting now, especially so that they seem to have wilfully misunderstood my whole spiel this game and misled others.

They're either scum or chronically unhelpful Town in which case they're a danger in the late game anyway, I probably won't accept any other lim at present.

--

*Snip*
Sure it's not been a lot, but i also had you pegged in I’m the Real Tracker very early, and while yes i was scum, you still oozed town in that game (i just didn't act on it because i was scum.)

Something feels different.

I wasn't thinking of 'I'm the Real Tracker' as I replaced out with a bereavement and I don't know if that game is ongoing.

The games I am referring to are:
This one (Tunnelled me when I was tracker up until after I replaced out) and this one. (Replaced in as scum v Town!me)

Idk why your vibes are off, maybe it's because I'm taking less shit from players that are happy to manufacture unproductive arguments and actively impede the game.

[Deltabreedy]

Either way Jason, not sure why your vibes are off on me.

Can you narrow it down to any posts that I can walk you through my thinking on?

[Deltabreedy]

@Happy:

Do you think it comes from a town-mindset when a player:

- Defends someone they 'don't know the alignment of'
- Attempts to shut down discussion
- Creates unproductive arguments
- Refuses to engage with productive contributions
- Suspects only lurkers and those who disagree with them
- Hides behind ad hominems, appeals to emotion, appeals to majority and misrepresentation, to the complete absence of scumhunting?

Vote for KKFC.

--

This is an example of a leading question configured towards an answer that I want, by the way - as opposed to what was (again), productive and probing questions with development each time earlier in the day.

[Deltabreedy]

What do you think of KKFC's posts today?

Do you see them coming from a mindset of 'I'm town, I want to go out and find scum', or do you see them in another light?

What do you think they are looking to achieve here?

[Deltabreedy]

Also it's quite telling from KKFC - they're voting me but are yet to develop a case or convince others of my scumhood because it came off the back of an OMGUS vote and I'm not letting them push the false narrative RE my questions.

[Deltabreedy]

Absolutely stretching to allegations of baiting and gaslighting.

I think the partner is one of Dragon/Happy or BBMolla, with a lean towards Happy ATM.

@Camel, Bazuf, Szmarz - who is the scumteam in your minds?

[Deltabreedy]

Your vote is currently on Camel.

Out of Camel/KKFC/BBMolla who is the most likely, and do you see any of these as potential pairings?

[Deltabreedy]

EBWOP: Meant to ask:

is camel still your top scumread? You said earlier they were doing a little better now.

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah nah I worded it weirdly. That makes sense

[Deltabreedy]

Readslist please Happy

[Deltabreedy]

So if you think it's KKFC and Happy, can you explain why your vote is on BBMolla?

You said it before and after #217 so your vote at the moment is inconsistent with your position.

[Deltabreedy]

So if you think it's KKFC and Happy, can you explain why your vote is on BBMolla?

You said it before and after #217 so your vote at the moment is inconsistent with your position.

Directed at @Camel

[Deltabreedy]

@Happy:
You've not really done anything to change that suspicion, and the only 'scumhunting' you've done is weakly casing Bazuf and scumreading KKFC but letting the pressure off after 1 'good post'.

I don't really buy it tbh.

Do you still think it's Bazuf/KKFC? Do you see a KKFC/BBMolla team?

Or has that one post which was trying to say that there was a vast difference in gameplay between post 36 and post 52 really sold you on KKFC'S townhood? I ask because you're discrediting the arguments against you as being relatively weak but you're then saying that KKFC's 396 is really strong?

Is KKFC scum, Happy?

[Deltabreedy]

Is KKFC scum, Happy?

Would like a definitive answer on this. You've glossed over the 'Thats a better post' point.

Even if that post is better, do you scumread KKFC?

If so, why are you not voting them?

[Deltabreedy]

Your pushing on camel is really minimal, and again I'd ask why your vote isn't placed there if you think they're scum.

[Deltabreedy]

The votes in the game are at this point still broadly very spread out. We need to start wagoning with 3 days to go of a weekend, we should start looking to get something going.

I'll happily take a wagon on (in order of preference):
KKFC
Happy
BBMolla

[Deltabreedy]

I get the sense that happy is now wilfully misunderstanding you.

[Deltabreedy]

Mhmm.

[Deltabreedy]

I reckon there's a world where they both are. I still have a preference for KKFC first, but wouldn't be opposed to full-throatedly supporting a BBMolla wagon should it come to it.

I think our readlists mostly align at this point, if you were to bump CT up a notch, Bazuf down a notch and Happy into lean scum.

[Deltabreedy]

Bit of both. There doesn't seem to be any impetus to lead, develop or join a wagon and we're two days out - plus the interactions with you RE: BBMolla look weird - playing them off as trolly not scummy could be Molla as a partner or Molla as town, with Happy discrediting the opinions of them and setting up D2/3 potentially.

I don't see Town!Happy writing off Molla in this way, I don't see why anyone would.

[Deltabreedy]

In fact, I've convinced myself.

UNVOTE: KKFC
VOTE: Happy

[Deltabreedy]

@Happy:

- You aren't seriously pushing a wagon in any way.
- Your vote is reactionary rather than being founded off the back of questions, analysis or serious engagement.
- Your defense of BBMolla's play is poor, regardless of Molla's alignment.

Plus, your slot is historically scummy to me because:

- Feigned a townread on me Page 2 for some seriously flimsy reasoning
- Came out the bag and committed to voting BB after some light RVS which I think in hindsight looks like some tactical distancing of slots.
- I don't think Dragon ever really intended to push hard on BB, I think their intention was out of the gate to very loudly distance from BBMolla. Molla does well to have a genuine reason for voting your slot RE: derailing the scumhunting.

---

I think at this stage that the scum team is Happy/Molla because:

- Historic Distancing via votes straight out of Page 1
- Current distancing (Happy referring to Molla as trolling, Molla pulling out fairly niche tells and applying minimal effort to pressuring Happy (As well as voting for Jason whilst saying directly to happy 'I think your slot is scum' - #399)
- Lack of effort in scumhunting on either side
- Vibes

[Deltabreedy]

I want you limmed tbh - put effort in or don't put effort in, its probably a bit late for me like

[Deltabreedy]

Im honestly a bit taken aback that you've just admitted you aren't putting any effort in

[Deltabreedy]

*Snip*
so, delta, what sparked you to change your read from post 320 (limming kkfc) to yeeting me
I don't think I've done anything that might be alignment indicative until the BBmolla trollpost thing
*snip*

Just because you don't think you've done anything scummy, doesn't mean you haven't.

Also you literally quoted my 464, you know my reasoning in full.

--

Also not to backseat mod, but you've been here long enough to know that referring to ongoing games is against the rules, as is being probably random. The second one doesn't quite apply but do us a favour and keep inside the rules? Cheers.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm vehemently against the camel wagon, by the way.

CT and Szmarzleek, can you both rehash their argument against camel and can you both justify it in the context of the Happy/BBMolla associatives?

Happy is a significantly better lim than Camel right now, and I think it's telling that the vote moved to camel, whilst 'townreading' KKFC to keep the WIFOM game going and saying that Molla is a null troll slot.

It works perfectly to cover the angles in the case of a Happy lim and sow misdirection whilst simultaneously, they're hopping onto a wagon that as far as I can recall has grown as a bit of a sleeper, rather than being a larger case and ongoing conversation.

[Deltabreedy]

EBWOP 'scumreading'

[Deltabreedy]

Because it's not on one of my scumreads.

[Deltabreedy]

Uh

Why did you put yourself as scum?

[Deltabreedy]

I want to wait until KKFC posts to lend my thoughts to this.

[Deltabreedy]

Thoughts on Molla, KKFC?

[Deltabreedy]

Who knows more than you?

Guh? I'm confused

ninja'd: No.

[Deltabreedy]

@KKFC

If they're better than you, what have you learned from them?

Is it how to active lurk? Cause that's only useful with one of the two alignments in this setup

Point being, I'd caution you against being more receptive to them just because they have a wealth of experience.

[Deltabreedy]

@Happy:

- You aren't seriously pushing a wagon in any way.
- Your vote is reactionary rather than being founded off the back of questions, analysis or serious engagement.
- Your defense of BBMolla's play is poor, regardless of Molla's alignment.

Plus, your slot is historically scummy to me because:

- Feigned a townread on me Page 2 for some seriously flimsy reasoning
- Came out the bag and committed to voting BB after some light RVS which I think in hindsight looks like some tactical distancing of slots.
- I don't think Dragon ever really intended to push hard on BB, I think their intention was out of the gate to very loudly distance from BBMolla. Molla does well to have a genuine reason for voting your slot RE: derailing the scumhunting.

---

I think at this stage that the scum team is Happy/Molla because:

- Historic Distancing via votes straight out of Page 1
- Current distancing (Happy referring to Molla as trolling, Molla pulling out fairly niche tells and applying minimal effort to pressuring Happy (As well as voting for Jason whilst saying directly to happy 'I think your slot is scum' - #399)
- Lack of effort in scumhunting on either side
- Vibes

@Leek

And I have more, come to think of it but let's have your thoughts on this for now

[Deltabreedy]

@Leek:

Can a lot of that be attributed to someone who is getting to grips with the site? I'd argue we can leave that until D2 and Lim someone today who is proactively scummy and not only that, but through associatives should give good information tomorrow.

From what you've said it looks bad, sure - but I'd also suggest that they are in fact answering questions which is good, the next point is maybe a bit of timidity, the third one applies to me too.

'I think Happy is Scum' isn't a hard statement - it just takes into account the subjectivity of the read.

I know happy is scum would be a hard statement, but also not one that is possible to make with any legitimacy, at least not D1.

---

I don't trust BBMolla and KKFC not to force a camel Lim here - it's kind of on you or CT to take a breath and run with the Lim which is better in just about every single way.

[Deltabreedy]

I think your argument is pretty loose when it comes to BB. Their statements are very superficial and rarely have substance behind them.

'Pressure me then' adds absolutely nothing, BB is, through wealth of experience, a player that is likely to be able to withstand pressure so inviting it onto himself doesn't really confer any kind of alignment, but does on the surface appear like it's cavalier town.

Similarly, 'Your reads suck because you scumread me' also might seem direct and confrontational, but where's the townie desire to suggest why?

Broadly, townsfolk want to be as helpful as possible - scum don't. By dropping one-liners and appearing to contribute without really developing a case on anyone, I'd go so far to argue that BB has infact actively lurked the whole day and added almost nothing of real value to the day's discussions.

---

I can see both being scum independently, at present I support a Happy lim more.

The associations with someone else I scumread only compound this view.

[Deltabreedy]

What about 'Pressure me then' and 'Your reads suck because you scumread me' doesn't also apply to your reasoning in #508?

-Reactive
-Doesn't let slip RE: alignments
-Short, snappy posts keep connotations to a minimum
-Doesn't develop cases

[Deltabreedy]

You could replace camel's name with BBMolla there and you could read the post the same, word for word imo

[Deltabreedy]

Nah stay on the Happy train.

[Deltabreedy]

In what way

[Deltabreedy]

So why does that stop a push on Happy

[Deltabreedy]

@Szmarz:

All of those posts could quite easily have come from scum, and they don't really do any scumhunting.

Additionally, BB tried to overhype their contribution earlier, saying that their Egix and Bazuf votes spurred activity when they objectively didn't. Why would town feel the need to do this?

Why does saying 'I think [x] is Town' reflect towniness?

Can you explain any of this beyond just vibes?

--

BBmolla is just posting more, and ducking and avoiding questions, Camel is answering them so no, I don't think their playstyles are the same.

In fact, that's why I townread Camel and scumread Molla!

No-one should be putting camel at E-1 until we've gone through this with Happy. I think there is too many variables for the wrong lim to go through.

We learn not a lot from a Camel lim if they're town - we learn tonnes from a happy lim - there's been more conversation around this, they're giving out more content and we can do a significantly more through VCA than we can on camel.

It's just the wrong one Leek - take it on faith

[Deltabreedy]

Jason basically said what I wanted to say.

Typing out and responding post by post is a playstyle, not AI.

I'd also point at the fact that Dragon in those posts says 'Delta is town'
'Delta and Katy are Town'.

Why would Town!Dragon be so quick to clear us and assign townhood to us? Would they not exercise a little caution?

What you're saying are townie posts simply aren't townie posts and I fear this is coming from a place of confirmation bias, that you're looking at these posts from a lens of not wanting to be wrong on Happy/Dragon.

[Deltabreedy]

Delta, what do we learn from happy's lim?
If they flip red and if they flip green?

There's been a lot more interaction.

We'll learn lot more from seeing the alignment and the role and applying that knowledge to interactions through the day than we will from the same with Camel.

I don't want to theorycraft for D2 at this point as we're not guaranteed the result that I'm after for D1 yet.

[Deltabreedy]

Can you explain any of this beyond just vibes?

Why aren't vibes enough

Cause I said so. No need to throw shite around about 'Robot posting', you can fuck that line of discreditting right off.

[Deltabreedy]

ehh

not 100% sure how I want to proceed

I feel like most of what's happening deltabreedy and jason being like "you're not fitting into the town-box I've invented in my head about what town SHOULD do so you're scum"

and then kkfc and camel and myself are like "okay but I am town so that box is dumb"

iamverytown is like "the town-box you guys have is pretty stupid"

leek is like ":|"

Bazuf is like "i somehow seem town when I've only got 17 posts, how do I do it?"

CT is posting snark

This is horrendously reductive, why are you using metaphor to promote a false version of events.

Fuck it, I'll queue lims, I'm going for BBMolla tomorrow more likely than now

[Deltabreedy]

More likely than not.

[Deltabreedy]

So you see how your logic falls apart, right Szmarzleek?

I need there to be appetite for a Molla lim over a shite camel lim before I switch my vote, Jason. My gut says we can definitely achieve a Happy lim today.

[Deltabreedy]

Happy, we need a readslist and we need it now from you.

Please make it as clear as possible, something like this:

Town

[Player] - [Reason]
[Player] - [Reason]
[Player] - [Reason]
[Player] - [Reason]
[Player] - [Reason]
[Player] - [Reason]
[Player] - [Reason]

Scum

[Deltabreedy]

Interesting this, considering i haven't actually given my reads

you're voting me so your reads are bad

I expect more people to start voting this just FYI, this is scummy as fuck.

it's literally not, I have a town role pm and you're voting me, your reads are bad, it's that simple lmfao

Isn't that a claim?

Huh? How are you getting that from that

[Deltabreedy]

So you see how your logic falls apart, right Szmarzleek?

I need there to be appetite for a Molla lim over a shite camel lim before I switch my vote, Jason. My gut says we can definitely achieve a Happy lim today.

Yeah but KFC and BB are both saying they are fine with it, we can switch back if need be, but i think we need to try and gear towards this first, and use Happy as the backup.

I disagree, and I won't be switching in the short-short term at least. I just don't have faith that enough people will vote for Molla.

[Deltabreedy]

Appetite for limming BBMolla:

Me
Jason
Chicago
Camel
Bazuf (Maybe)?

Happy (Maybe) - Probable Partner

Fuck it yeah lets go then
UNVOTE: Happy
VOTE: BBMolla

[Deltabreedy]

Leek your reasoning for not scumreading BBMolla is that scum would be too lazy to put the effort in to controlling a game as far as I see - Jason hits it on the head when that's a playstyle thing not alignment indicative.

What would town!BBMolla have to gain from being so obtuse, so obstructive to constructive discussion?
What does Scum!BBMolla have to gain?

[Deltabreedy]

You're a townread of mine but jesus christ if we don't disagree on damn near every read, god damn

[Deltabreedy]

We need CT around, they've been gone almost 2 days

[Deltabreedy]

You didn't include Camel.

And 2124 hasn't finished yet. 2nd time you've done that.

Given you include BBMolla at the bottom of your list, can we count on your vote for Molla? If so, now is the time to do it.

[Deltabreedy]

Delta, what do you think about Bazuf? Haven't seen you talk about them but they have started to post more.

Null - slight lean town by virtue of not being one of BBMolla or Happy at present.

Your vote should be on Molla by the way, Camel. Why isn't it?

[Deltabreedy]

Jason you had me completely fooled and pulled me off your partner D1.

You absolute beaut well played.

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah I saw that in the Maf PT just now - had you shot BB that could really have worked, just an unfortunate coin toss.

[Deltabreedy]

I do think there should be a modifier that has a different PR maybe for A3 - what's the roleblocker supposed to do?