Newbie 2127: game over

[Bazuf]

Hey guys.
4th game in this forum...

VOTE: JasonWazza
This guy's dangerous...

[Bazuf]

You only say that because you have only seen scum game Bazuf.

That's true
This is really RVS, but I have played two games with scum!Jason.
Hope this one we have a town!Jason.

How is he dangerous?

He's a very experienced player.
If he's scum, he seems to be a very townie scum...

[Bazuf]

I think there’s no issue putting someone this early at E-1.
I mean, it’s not like anyone is going to hammer, because who does will get limmed on the next day.

I think Delta was overreaching saying HighFlyingDwarf was fishing for a claim.
He just said that if it came to it, he should roleclaim before getting limmed.

Also, I don’t read anything from Chicago posts. He’s a very conservative player.
The reaction from PC was much weirder to me, it seemed overly defensive and even reaction voted on Chicago.
But I’ve never played with PC so don’t know if this is normal or not.


UNVOTE:
VOTE: Deltabreedy

It is still very early, but right now I’m a bit suspicious on Delta and PC.
Either way, I think it’s worth pushing there…

[Bazuf]

The reaction from PC was much weirder to me, it seemed overly defensive and even reaction voted on Chicago.
But I’ve never played with PC so don’t know if this is normal or not.

How was it defensive, he pointed out the flaw in CT's thinking (CT is calling out PC but not me) and voted accordingly.

It is 100% correct to call out CT for pushing PC and not even batting an eyelid at me doing what i did.

Who played with CT before is aware that he sure takes his time to place a vote.
We can argue if that’s bad or good playing style, but it is his playing style.

From a previous post I was under the impression that PC has played with Chicago before, so I guess he knows this.
I believe that Delta has also played with him before, so possibly knows this too.
So using the lack of vote from CT as an argument that he’s scummy, is a bit forced…

However, I agree that it is suspicious that CT has pointed the E-1 vote of PC and not Jasons.
He'll have to explain that.

[Bazuf]

Bazuf, even without the contradiction of CT not calling out Jason for the exact same thing, there's a logical mismatch between them saying they'd find it scummy and them proceeding to not vote for it.

I couldn't give a toss if someone's conservative or not - the fact of the matter is that what CT said and what they're doing don't tally up and it is the most interesting thing on the board at present.

I'm always cautious of people who are quick to townread people, I find it pretty alarming to be honest that you have 3 reads you would describe as

strong

townreads - it feels informed but it also doesn't, just gives me the creeps.

I think it's just a playstyle difference between you and I tbh

I might be misreading this, but isn’t this contradictory?

So you disregard CT playing style and say that his lack of voting doesn’t match with his posts.
However, you also say that you find alarming that Jason has 3 townreads, but here is playstyle differences.
So shouldn't you be pressuring Jason the same way?

How do you set the difference between each argument?


To be clear, I’m not “parking” the vote on you. It’s just there because it is the best case I have so far.

[Bazuf]

*snip
If this is the best you have at present, can I check you've read the thread to date?

I did read the whole thread, and yes, at the moment you seem the scummiest to me.

*snip
Wagons are fun, and I like things that go very fast, so VOTE: Vestrea
*snip

UNVOTE: Vestrea
VOTE: HighFlyingDwarf

You voted Vestrea, because wagons are fun, but when Vestrea went to E-1, you switched to HFD (for poor reasons in my POV).
Wagons were not fun anymore?

And then you made a case against CT which I could maybe understand, except for the fact that we both know his playing style.
Instead of arguing why CT believes PC was 80% scum (which I’m more interested to know), you went for the fact that he didn’t vote.

So, I’m not really seeing who you suggest for a better wagon at the moment, but you’re welcome to clarify.

[Bazuf]

Sorry, that was pretty shitty.

I feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall which isn't healthy for page 4 but it doesn't justify shitty comments like that. MB

No need to apologise, your comment wasn’t that harsh.
Maybe my comment came the wrong way, but want I meant was that I don’t think you have that much of a strong case against CT.

*snip
Okay, because this is getting misinterpreted, full context is above. I am not saying PC is 80% scummy. I am saying that a player should not put someone else in E-1

with intent to force them to roleclaim

early in Day 1 unless that player feels there's an 80% chance or better that the player is scum.

I was definitely reading that differently, so I’m glad you clarified it.

You only say that because you have only seen scum game Bazuf.

That's true
This is really RVS, but I have played two games with scum!Jason.
Hope this one we have a town!Jason.

How is he dangerous?

He's a very experienced player.
If he's scum, he seems to be a very townie scum...

Can you link to one or both of those games or provide the number? I'd like to look at them.

I meant games 2125 and 2123.

Clapstick, can you share some reads already?

[Bazuf]

This KKFC vs PC just really got out of hand.
Now that things have calmed down…

KKFC, do you maintain your scumread on PC?
Is it purely based on his misunderstanding of CT comments?

And PC, you said “the whole from ct is just scum overall”.
Is this just based on him questioning your intent on the Vestrea wagon, or do you find any other of his comments to be scummy?
Since your vote is on KKFC, do you think that the scum team might be KKFC/CT?


Also, I want to point out that we practically haven’t heard from Claptastik and Vestrea.
Care to share some thoughts?

[Bazuf]

The last posts of KKFC sound very weird to me....

First, you question Jason for asking more from Clapstick, which is very legit because he has said practically zero.
The argument you use for this is that "he should give more info himself before asking for info"... why???
Besides, he has already gave plenty of his reads, so this doesn't even make much sense...

Also, you said that you got in an argument with PC without giving much information yourself.
Isn't this contradictory?
And what exactly did you get from that argument with PC?


And why exactly do you think Clapstick is town?? I'd be ok with a null read, but a town read??

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Clapstick

I think this is E-1, so kindly share more of your thoughts.

[Bazuf]

*snip
Well yeah, I realized that exactly. My plan was to not give my reads (why I said i was null on both) to get PC's reads first so I could evaluate them. I read Jason as scum initially for doing this, then I realized we were doing the same thing.

Idk, one of Claptaskiks posts read as town. I don't think that means I townread him.

I'll clarify something here since Bazuf and Jason both talked about it.

My main issue with Jason at the time wasn't that he scumread Claptastik. It was that he asked for reads without giving his own. I was under the impression at the time that this could be scummy, but I realized that I did it earlier myself in my conversations with PC.

So, let me get this straight… You scum read Jason because supposedly he asked questions before giving his own reads, but then you noticed that you did the same thing, so he’s not suspicious anymore…
But according to your initial thought, that’s a suspicious behaviour, and since you did the same thing, should we scum read you too??

Although I think the initial premise is bogus, using your own logic, this makes me a bit suspicious of you.


Also, what exactly do you find townie from Clapstastik posts?
Anything in particular or is this just a feeling thing?

@Bazuf:

Why are you ending a round of questions towards KKFC with a vote on Clapstick?

Why not?
It’s not like these things are exclusively used together…
KKFC has been responsive, so I think I can ask him questions, while using my vote to put pressure on Clapstick so he can give us something more…
I think it is working honestly.

The last posts of KKFC sound very weird to me....

First, you question Jason for asking more from Clapstick, which is very legit because he has said practically zero.
The argument you use for this is that "he should give more info himself before asking for info"... why???
Besides,

he has already gave plenty of his reads, so this doesn't even make much sense...

Also, you said that you got in an argument with PC without giving much information yourself.
Isn't this contradictory?
And what exactly did you get from that argument with PC?


And why exactly do you think Clapstick is town?? I'd be ok with a null read, but a town read??

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Clapstick

I think this is E-1, so kindly share more of your thoughts.

Kudos for you for recognizing that depsite the low post count, my posts do have significant content.

But, if you're not voting me for supposed lack of production, I guess you're voting me for my reads. Where do you disagree with them?

Claptastik, just to clarify…
The bolded part of my comment refers to Jason. He’s the one that has given his reads…

My vote on you is exactly because you have made some posts and asked some questions, but we still don’t know your thoughts of the game so far.
I couldn’t disagree with your reads even if I wanted, because you have not shared them yet.
So please tell us objectively who you think is scum and why.


At this point, I’m leaning scum on:
-> Claptastik for seemingly avoid to share his thoughts and not contributing for town finding scum.
-> KKFC by association. I mean, let’s not even get into his reasoning for finding Jason scum and pulling back, only because he noticed he was doing the same thing.
KKFC finds some of Claptastik posts to be townie, while Claptastik also thinks that KKFC is townie, both pushing the idea that PC is scum.

*snip
KKFC does come off as frustrated town. I also think it's likely TvT (as noted earlier),

but there's a possibility PC is scum

. He wasn't as genuine as KKFC, and some scum love to get into a 1v1 early to get town reads.

*snip

I think it's reasonable for CT to think PC is scum after more interactions.

It’s starting to sound like a team working together…

[Bazuf]

Before I continue reading I just want to say the people pushing a Claptastik/KKFC team need to remember the meta from last game. Maybe I switched things up but if you put yourself in my shoes, you would think I would be very careful to not interact in any sort of overly defensive ways with my partner D1? This is just WIFOM I guess, but to tell you the truth last game felt really bad, as my game basically ended D1, so I'd like for people to keep that in mind if they care about meta.

This comes to me as bit of overly defensive…
I was the only one to entertain the idea of a Claptastik/KKFC team, so this post kinda feels like you felt the need to defend yourself without much reason for it.

Right now, I think town has better players to push, but your behaviour is hitting me as a bit scummy.
First the reasoning for the Jason vote, and now the need for defend yourself against a Claptastik/KKFC team… Its just feeling suspicious to me…
These might be important things to revisit later in the game...


Its nice to have all players on board.
@ MikhailTal, despite your post being elaborate and all, to me it’s just coming as annoying really. I’m sorry.

Please be more objective on you think is scum (apparently me) and why.
I’m really tempted to change my vote for you, but on the other hand I think Claptastik has not really given us much, so my vote will stay on him for now.

@ Claptastik, although I understand what you mean by not giving too much info so the scum can’t adapt their responses, you also need to think that if we all play it like that, we ultimately won’t have any information to work with, and this will benefit scum even more.
Besides, withholding reads at this point means we taking at face value that you’re town, which none of us obviously can.
So yeah, we need more from you, otherwise you might get limed.

[Bazuf]

@ Mickhail: I’m sorry but the way you write sounds obnoxious and a bit arrogant.
English in not my native language either, but writing in simple English shouldn’t be an issue.

You’re just writing in a very pompous way without actually saying anything.

Care to justify your vote in me in a way that all players can understand?


Also, I can’t understand Claptastik.
Why do people come play this fucking game to just bitch and moan when they’re not getting it their way??
Specially, someone who said to have played it before…

If you don’t like the site, just go with your life…
If you don’t like this specific game, just ask for a replacement and try again…
Don’t fucking throw a tantrum like a toddler…

My vote will stand on Claptastik, who I now believe to be a frustrated scum who just gave up on the game.
And I think his partner might be Mickhail, both slots who haven’t said a fuckin thing!

[Bazuf]

Sorry for the rant, but it is really frustrating to think that these slots might actually be town and they're just lurking without helping find scum at all.

[Bazuf]

@KKFC, honestly asking... Since you seem to comprehend what Mikhail is saying in his posts, can you please enlighten us?
Did you understand why he finds me scummy?

What other reads have you taken from his comments?

[Bazuf]

If Bazuf also requests that then I'll think about it, I'm not overly enthused with the idea though.

Bazuf what are you hoping to get from KKFC on this?

Two things...
If in fact KKFC actually understood something from Mikhail or if he's just sayin it so...
And the actually reasoning behind Mikhail's comments.

I'd be OK waiting until KKFC says something, or until Mikhail actually explains his reasoning.
We do have time for this.

Meanwhile, we're also waiting for Claptastik replacement, which will also have to share his thoughts, because I'm seriously scum reading this slot. Maybe he'll join in the meantime.

[Bazuf]

VOTE: Mikhail

We need people to help us find scum, not to be describing personalities in the most possible obnoxious way...


Thank you KKFC, your translation really helped understand Mikhail, but this is very counterproductive for town...
Also he's views are still a big handful of nothing.
He's not looking for intent, he's just describing players and how he feels about our posts.

He's just being so annoying, that I'm coming to the conclusion that claptastik actually quit because of him...
Probably pulled the same shit on the mafia PT and he just had enough...

[Bazuf]

Delta -> much calmer than usual. This might be NAI, but who have played with him sure feels different.

KKFC -> Some inconsistent reasoning on D-1 (scum read Jason, and then town read him when found out that the reason he was scum reading him applied to him too)
Also town read Claptastik for no plausible reason.

usesPython -> came much stronger than Claptastik, which is always good for the game.
Is also town reading KKFC based on meta. This is obviously relative.
All players evolve, so I’m sure that if KKFC was scum he would certainly play differently than he did before.

HDF -> look forward to hear the masons theories.

PC / CT -> I honestly don’t have much on these two slots.
They have been pretty null to me, so I’ll have to ISO them and then share my conclusions.


For the moment, my suspicions are mostly with KKFC/usesPython.
They appear to town read each other for very arguable reasons.
Although before placing my vote, I’ll ISO PC and CT and see what we have there.

@PC you voted CT right of the bat on D-2, and no one seem to have addressed that…
Care to explain your vote?

[Bazuf]

The whole Delta vs. KKFC/UP kinda makes me believe that UP is scum, and that Delta has made some good points…

Even before that, I scum read Claptastik for basically avoiding giving his reads and even quitting in a way that appear to be frustrated scum.
UP came into the game and seriously pocketed KKFC.
From a town perspective, I really don’t understand the need to defend someone else so hard.
Specially, based in meta, but in a very short meta… I mean, from my understanding KKFC has played one mafia game.
And from what you said, he was obviously playing differently than usual, so don’t you think that he would adapt his game this time?

Personally, I think meta can be important to evaluate in some scenarios, but is not such a decisive factor to know if someone is being town or scum.
I have to believe that everyone has the capacity to adapt their game in accordance to their role, otherwise, this would be too easy…


Regarding KKFC, rereading some of his posts, it’s definitely coming across as LAMIST.
I guess it may be his playing style, or maybe is kinda paranoid over past games, but I kinda have to agree with Delta here…
I don’t think a townie player has to worry themselves that much about appearing townie.
They should mostly be worried about finding scum, even if they have to get limmed in order to help town win.
KKFC sounds very worried about surviving, and this is usually a scum worry.

But KKFC/UP interactions would make them such an obvious scum pair, that I can’t believe it’d be true. I have to assume that one of them is just being pocketed.


Then Delta… D-1 Delta felt kinda different, I haven’t seen him pressuring like usual, but this can be motivated for outside reasons…
I don’t think we can take any conclusions from the Mikhail lim, because honestly, I agree it was best to get him out of the game at that point.
D-2 Delta is somewhat seeming more like the usual Delta, but something still feels kinda off.


CT and PC have been kinda null reads to me… Honestly, still didn’t had the time to ISO them, but the way PC seems to be tunnelling on CT, makes me believe that they couldn’t be both scum.


So this is my take-away…

KKFC / UP / Delta -> one might be scum, but not two
CT / PC -> one might be scum, but not both

At this point, I think it’ll be harder to figure out which is scum from CT/PC…
So we have to address the trio KKFC/UP/Delta. I think if we hit a scum here, the other two will be confirmed town.

I’ll take a pass on KKFC for now… I don’t want to think that he’d be sticking his neck this much as scum…
And between Delta and UP, somehow I find Delta less scummier than UP.

VOTE: usesPython

[Bazuf]

*snip
I mean to my understanding PC/Bazuf/Delta all had Problems^TM with KKFC's posting and I thought he was really obviously outside of his scumrange.

Talk to me about the KKFC meta read, why do you think he can get over the scum jitters with only a single recent games worth of experience

-A

You can’t be seriously townreading a player just because of “scum jitters”….

I mean, I can accept using meta to make a point in some ways, but in this case you’re using one experience and assuming that a player will play in the exact same way.
First, “scum jitters” are VERY relative… some may have it, some may not, I don’t think you can base a read on this…
Secondly, you are assuming that a player wouldn’t evolve from one game to another…
KKFC may have played once as mafia, but he played a lot more as town… I think he also has a lot of experience playing this game outside of this forum…
So he might have played a lot more times as mafia…
And while one game might have not gone his way, it doesn’t mean he’ll play exactly the same way in the next one.

What I believe is this… Best way for scum to play is to mimic their town game, so players can’t find differences between their town and scum play.
KKFC knows exactly how he plays as town, so even though he might have had one game that didn’t go his way as mafia, I’m absolutely positive that in the next one he’d do better.

So, what I’m actually wondering here is… are you using this argument just to pocket KKFC (knowing he’s town), or are you actually defending this as his scum partner?

I honestly can’t believe this way of thinking coming from town, who don’t know who’s who, and who are generally more distrustful of other players.
You are giving a free pass to KKFC based solely on meta, which shouldn’t be that easy for town to do…

Also talk to me about Delta, I think he's pretty heavily in his scum game rn and none of his pushes have been +town this game

-A

Can you elaborate on why this is his scummy game, without using any meta?

[Bazuf]

*snip

Also talk to me about Delta, I think he's pretty heavily in his scum game rn and none of his pushes have been +town this game

-A

Can you elaborate on why this is his scummy game, without using any meta?

You mind if we wait until 609 happens before we talk about this?

-A

OK, but put a pin in this because I’d like to hear your thoughts without any meta data.

Like I think there might be a misconception here: The KKFC meta read has very little to do with playstyle and actions (Which can be mimic'd even by weaker scum), it's primarily a vibe and toneread (Which is extremely difficult to mimic by weaker scum)

-A

OK, I think I now understand this is more of a vibe read, taking into account KKFC last game as scum…
Still, I think you’re giving him an easy pass, and plainly underestimating KKFC.

As a townie, I want to believe that anyone playing as scum would play the same way as town, in terms of style and tone…
At least, I have to keep my head straight and not easily trust someone based solely on this.

Although meta is in fact a topic of analysis, it is just one of many others…
I think that interactions and actions in the game are more revealing…

Bazuf do you have any off-site scum experience in forum mafia?

-A

Just so you know, I’ve played mafia like many years ago (+10 years), and I’ve played as different town roles, different scum roles and also as a Serial Killer.

I got a bit nostalgic and remembered I had lots of fun playing this and I signed up in this forum.
So, I’m a bit rusty, but I’m getting back on track…

But I think this was a more interesting question to ask KKFC, before tonereading him based in one scum game. Don’t you think?

[Bazuf]

*snip
Our meta case gets stronger if KKFC has scum experience off site because it indicates a long-term trend of not being able to vibe town as scum as opposed to a short term skill issue

-A

I don’t really agree.
Would it be possible that that one scum game of KKFC just went wrong for him?

Well, ALL of us can’t really say, because he only played ONE scum game here, and we don’t know if/how he played mafia on other places…
So again, this is all subjective talk…

I'm not in the headspace to sort Delta this dayphase and want to shoot in PC/CT/Bazuf rn

-A

Can you elaborate who town should lim between those three?

Instead of painting me as the bad guy why don't you answer Bazufs question still?

I'm not buying this AtE, it's crocodile tears - and it distracts from the fact that they still haven't answered #610!

WE FUCKING ANSWERED 610 WE LITERALLY SAID WE THINK THIS FIGHT IS HAPPENING OVER A DIFFERENCE IN DEFINITIONS AND THAT WE CAN'T SORT YOU TODAY, IN WHAT FUCKING WORLD IS THAT "YES WE'RE STILL ACTIVELY SCUMREADING DELTA"?

Let me get this straight…
You said this was a scum!Delta game, and I asked you to elaborate on it without any meta data…
But now you’re saying that you can’t sort him out, and this is probably a “difference in definitions”?

Do you see where your logic is kinda falling apart?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve only seen you said that KKFC is town because of meta, and Delta is scum because of meta…

[Bazuf]

Well, now I'm confused.

x2

Second time this slot is replaced...
If this is a scum slot, the partner should be pissed...

[Bazuf]

Claptastik is being pressured… quits the game
usesPython is being pressured… quits the game

Frustrated town or frustrated scum?

[Bazuf]

*snip
2) Am I right in assuming that your read on me gets more town as the post progresses?

No. That progression makes me think your less scum than Delta/UP.
But it doesn’t make me think your town.
In fact, if UP flips red, I’ll still entertain the idea of a UP/KKFC team.

I think the logic in here makes sense. If you want evidence that this is an intentional decision by me check this quote from Jason that I have saved.

Also just a note: KFC you played fine, if i was town i absolutely would have been defending you way more, you were so clearly town, but i had to allow this town to have blinders, because apparently they are too stuck in their own exact holes of how people play Mafia.

Why did you save this quote?
It’s sounding like you had it prepared for another LAMIST argument.

*snip
Like, I am getting the most immense sense of Deja Vu. Last game I gave up trying to look town because I felt like it was over. This game I clearly tried too hard, but don't you think it's pretty clear I've been more productive in general, Bazuf? (CT feel free to chime in here). I know I am leaning into the LAMIST play while people are still suspicious of it, but I'm just saying, if you look at last game and then this game, my adjustments make sense if you think that I decided to make them before I even got my role. All in all, I understand that this boils down to me saying "trust me, I am town who also decided to highlight the town things they were doing more because they had a bad experience last game", but there's a lot of corroborating evidence that I think matters here. I'll talk about the first piece next.

You kinda answered your own question…
Most of your posts have been LAMIST.
From my POV, your more worried in proving yourself town that proving someone else is scum.
You think this is productive for town?
Well I don’t. I certainly can’t take at face value yours arguments, when all you’ve done is using them to tell us “See? SEE? I did this, so I’m town…”
You could have done exactly the same things as scum, that’s why I’m really trying to get a grasp of you on intent more than on LAMIST arguments.

*snip
A piece of evidence that matters a lot is that I had an easier way to play scum thsi game. I am taking a big risk in changing my playstyle considering I was town last game. It would be easy for me as scum to do things like refuse to give evidence behind reads, or hard defend the another player (I guess I did that but it was more over semantics/policy this time rather than anything more substantive) and have people go "oh, this is KKFC's town playstyle" or "KKFC did this last game, we can sort him later" or even "KKFC is just not a strong town player because he struggles to give reads". In a sense, I'm asking why I would put a target on my back by saying "hey everyone, I'm saying I'm doing a lot and I want you all to read my posts more carefully".

Another subjective piece of evidence…
As scum, you could play exactly the same and use that as an argument to tell people your town (which is kinda what you’re doing).

*snip
Another piece of evidence I have (more specific) is that I don't think a me/UP team would make sense at all. If UP's defense on me is entirely based on meta, then that might imply I took an intentional playstyle line to "look" different than my scum games. The thing is though, that UP is a replacement. How could we coordinate something I definitely started Day 1 when they weren't in the game? It's possible they're just a smart player who identified a way to defend me, but surely it's less probable when we consider they're a replacement. I think the idea that they looked at my game and were like "hey, this is an easy way to defend KKFC" gives much more evidence to them pocketing me.

I’d have to reread your interactions with Claptastik.
But UP being a replacement doesn’t mean that you couldn’t be a team.
He might have been trying to pocket you, but it is definitely weird how basically he just defended you and attacked Delta based on meta and nothing more.

[Bazuf]

I don’t really agree.
Would it be possible that that one scum game of KKFC just went wrong for him?

Wait you know I won the game as scum right?

Actually, from context, I thought you’d lose

In that case, UP arguments make even less sense to me…

[Bazuf]

Honestly, I feel like I should hammer here. Worse case scenario we do go to ELO, but that all but confirms Deltabreedy and it saves Skygazer the problem of subbing in a replacement into this slot, which is probably going to get limmed anyway.

Hear me out. We should be voting outside Clap/UP vs. Delta because we will struggle in endgame if we don't get info from the replacement.

I would understand you asking to hold the vote until the replacement comes (although I don’t agree with it).
But you suggesting shifting the entire voting to other player, don’t think that’s a town move… unless you justify it pretty well…

[Bazuf]

@Bazuf, I also wanted clarification on a couple of things from Day 1:

At this point, I’m leaning scum on:
-> Claptastik for seemingly avoid to share his thoughts and not contributing for town finding scum.
-> KKFC by association. I mean, let’s not even get into his reasoning for finding Jason scum and pulling back, only because he noticed he was doing the same thing.
KKFC finds some of Claptastik posts to be townie, while Claptastik also thinks that KKFC is townie, both pushing the idea that PC is scum.

*snip
KKFC does come off as frustrated town. I also think it's likely TvT (as noted earlier),

but there's a possibility PC is scum

. He wasn't as genuine as KKFC, and some scum love to get into a 1v1 early to get town reads.

*snip

I think it's reasonable for CT to think PC is scum after more interactions.

It’s starting to sound like a team working together…

I just wanted to make sure that you read 232 correctly. I was making that comment about how I think ChicagoTypewriter should think PC is scum based on PC misinterpreting CT for 32 and 33. My logic there is that I would be really pissed if PC hard pushed on me for something PC themselves misread. I would be thinking whether PC is scum trying to either 1) cause chaos or 2) get an easy day 1 miselim. I'm not saying that I think it's reasonable for PC to be scum, and it should be clear that I thought that because I didn't push on PC after the argument.

Yeah, this was clear and it was address before…
I think you understood it first, but then CT explained what he meant and it was clear… Still PC insisted on it, which was kinda weird at the time…

*snip
Either way, the main thing I want clarification on is just that you have used meta and it clearly has weight when it comes to how you make decisions on things.

Also, I don’t read anything from Chicago posts. He’s a very conservative player.
The reaction from PC was much weirder to me, it seemed overly defensive and even reaction voted on Chicago.
But I’ve never played with PC so don’t know if this is normal or not.

You only say that because you have only seen scum game Bazuf.

That's true
This is really RVS, but I have played two games with scum!Jason.
Hope this one we have a town!Jason.

How is he dangerous?

He's a very experienced player.
If he's scum, he seems to be a very townie scum...

Delta -> much calmer than usual. This might be NAI, but who have played with him sure feels different.

I know UP is replaced out, but Bazuf, if you read my ISO from Mini 2303 as well as the Mafia PT, you will see where UP is coming from. If you hold all meta views in equal weight, I think you will come to the conclusion that I am town.

I didn’t say that meta was useless.
I said that meta is just another factor between many, and certainly there are other factors more important.

I’ve acknowledged that CT and Delta have a specific playstyle, which is verifiable in many of their games…
Probably, even if they play town or scum…
Although this is acknowledged, I wouldn’t use it to make a case they’re town or scum.

UP made a case saying that you once played as scum, and it was different than all your games as town.
This doesn’t mean that you can’t be scum again and play just the same as you play as town.
It’s a fallacy.

[Bazuf]

Honestly, I feel like I should hammer here. Worse case scenario we do go to ELO, but that all but confirms Deltabreedy and it saves Skygazer the problem of subbing in a replacement into this slot, which is probably going to get limmed anyway.

Hear me out. We should be voting outside Clap/UP vs. Delta because we will struggle in endgame if we don't get info from the replacement.

Interesting. Who do you propose?

I want to see how Bazuf responds to my most recent post, but I have a few things that make me skeptical of town!Bazuf.

1) He's mentioned a few times that players evolve and that's why he doesn't trust his meta on me. Then why is he pushing so hard a possible me/Claptastik team? Would that not be exactly the same thing I was mis-elim'ed for last game? This push seems tenuous.
2) He said he doesn't care about meta that much but he used it to try to sort you very early in Day 1.
3) The combination of 1) and 2) makes me think he wasn't responding to UP's argument in sorting me as town in good faith.

4) I'm suspicious that Bazuf was scumread by Tal and then turned and made an easy push on him for a policy lim.

1) Don’t really understand your question there… How does my comment about players having the ability to evolve does not make possible for a KKFC/UP team?

2) That’s kinda a stretch… Again, I’ve pointed two players playstyles, I didn’t say they were town because of that… Which is very different from what UP said.

3) You continue to be more worried that I sort you as town, and the fact that I’m not doing it seems to be eating you up inside.
I asked UP to make a case on another player that was not based on meta, and he quit without giving me an answer.
UP was obviously worried in proving that you were town, more than anything else, which is vey fucking weird.
So no, I’m not town reading you at all… Everything you and UP have said that you’ve done to be so townie, you could have done it the same as scum,

4) To this day I still have not understand one single read from Mikhail… So if you know why exactly he was scum reading me, let me know and I might be able to explain. Otherwise, all I’ve read was that I was scum based on a feeling…

[Bazuf]

Honestly, I feel like I should hammer here. Worse case scenario we do go to ELO, but that all but confirms Deltabreedy and it saves Skygazer the problem of subbing in a replacement into this slot, which is probably going to get limmed anyway.

Hear me out. We should be voting outside Clap/UP vs. Delta because we will struggle in endgame if we don't get info from the replacement.

Interesting. Who do you propose?

Who do you propose?

KKFC, come on be serious… you were the one who made the suggestion and now you’re trying to get one out from CT.
Why would you want to shift the voting intentions from UP/Delta??
Who would you like to vote instead??

[Bazuf]

KKFC you continue your LAMIST posts and asking other players if they find you town.
You need to understand that this makes you sound like scum (at least from my POV)

It’s sound like you have all the arguments prepared to say “I did this and that, so I’m so townie”
It’s like scripted.

Although some players may find it NAI, I just can’t see why a town player would do this, specially to this length…

I’ll try to go past this, so please tell me:
What do you think town must do to figure out who is scum, and please justify.

[Bazuf]

Contrary to popular belief, I don’t see what town will gain from waiting for a new player…
Claptastik seemed scum, UP seemed scum… Do you think a new player is going to make us thing this slot is town?
Won’t all of you be suspicious even though this new player seems town?
What exactly do you expect to achieve from this new player?

I’d honestly prefer to lim UP.
If he town flips, then probably KKFC is town and Delta is scum.
If the scum flips, then probably Delta is town and we’ll have to review KKFC/CT/PC

[Bazuf]

I don't think it's as binary as that.

you didn't elaborate much on that comment, so should I think you're expecting UP to flip town?
So it wouldn’t be binary in the sense that in that case you want us to think you're town too?


Also PC, in more than one occasion you’ve mentioned that I should townread you based on your ISO.
Why??
And why exactly did you find laughable about a hypothetic PC/Delta scum team?

[Bazuf]

*snip
At this point I just think you're being skeptical of anything I present. I am desperately trying to show you that I made an intentional choice to be LAMIST as town because of my experiences last game. If you choose to read this as scum and any further attempts to justify it as scum then we will just never make any progress. Yes, everything is subjective, but I have no objective way to prove to you I am town. I am also getting really tired of the arguments saying that I am not trying to hunt scum. 1) If I can get townread as town, I can simplify the gamestate enough that we can win. 2) I have been driving a lot of the conversation today, so clearly I'm trying to help town...

Finally, I'm not saying that me/UP couldn't have been a team, I'm saying why would I set this playstyle up as scum when UP wasn't even my teammate Day 1. Setting up a wildly different meta Day 1 makes no sense when I didn't really appeal to it at all to show that I am town. All I did was play more LAMIST than usual but I didn't appeal to it or use it to say "hey, look how different my meta is". The ONLY meta I used at all Day 1 was saying "look how similar Day 1 was to Newbie 2125 where I flipped town". The people in Newbie 2125 were you, Jason, Delta, and CT. If anything, wouldn't that point to a team of me and someone from that game?

You are presenting the same arguments and trying to get me to give you a different answer…
You saying that you’re purposefuly being LAMIST does not make you town. That’s fucking stupid!

Answering the underlined parts:
1) That’s a pretty comfortable place to be as scum, being town read by everyone and discarded as a potencial thread (by the way, no one will ever do that!)
2) Again, pretty comfortable place to be as scum, driving the conversation and flow of the game

*snip
I won as scum in 2303, so my playstyle would be more similar there.
I got misvoted as town in 2125, so my playstyle would be more different from there.

WHY???
You want us to take your word that you have a playstyle for scum and other for town??

Also, I'm skeptical of the idea that you thought we lost as scum in 2303, it seems like a slip honestly.

How the fuck would me not reading your game be a slip?!

Newsflash for you… I don’t go read past games, my comment on CT and Delta playstyle is based on my experience playing with them…

UP made a case saying that you once played as scum, and it was different than all your games as town.
This doesn’t mean that you can’t be scum again and play just the same as you play as town.
It’s a fallacy.

OK BUT WHY CAN'T CT BE SCUM AND BE PLAYING THE SAME AS HIS TOWN GAMES? DUDE.

Who said CT couldn’t be scum???
That's exactly my fucking point! Despite he's playing style, he can be either scum or town!

There it is, you’re not really understanding a fucking thing I’m saying!
Playstyle alone is irrelevant to draw conclusions on peoples alignment.
And that’s what UP was defending, and you seem to be defending too!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: KatyKimFanClub

Reasons:
- Keeps insisting that we all should townread him based on his meta alone. (sorry, not going to happen)
- Mutual defense of UP based on the same arguments (before you’ve also defended Claptastik – 243, 292).
- Previous interaction with Jason where he scum read him for something that he actual did as well (225, 243)


And no, I don’t want to go read your past games (don’t really have the time for that).
I want you to focus on this game and help me find scum.

Who should town vote for and why?

[Bazuf]

*snip
At this point I just think you're being skeptical of anything I present. I am desperately trying to show you that I made an intentional choice to be LAMIST as town because of my experiences last game. If you choose to read this as scum and any further attempts to justify it as scum then we will just never make any progress. Yes, everything is subjective, but I have no objective way to prove to you I am town. I am also getting really tired of the arguments saying that I am not trying to hunt scum.

1) If I can get townread as town, I can simplify the gamestate enough that we can win.

2) I have been driving a lot of the conversation today, so clearly I'm trying to help town...

Sorry, these were the underlined parts

I'm not asking for you to take my word. I'm saying logically, I would continue to play the same way as scum in a game I won and change my town playstyle in a game I was mis-elimed.

Sorry, I’m not buying that logic… You want me believe in that, and I think that’s convenient for you…

I'm saying it's a slip because UP literally said we won the game and then you claimed I lost it previously.

I didn’t claimed it, I understood it that way… can’t see how that is a slip…

You clearly townread CT earlier this game because of playstyle alignment. I am pointing out that there's a discrepancy there.

I said CT is having the same playstyle, and we shouldn’t read anything from there, because Delta was telling that CT should vote on PC and wasn’t…
Dont’ see any discrepancy there…

I currently scumread you the most, but honestly PC is starting to concern me too.
I don't see any of the frenetic energy I saw Day 1 or in his previous games as town. I think he's coasting.

Please make a case for me and PC

@Bazuf: Keen on having you answer #729 which is a followup to #718 please.

Honestly, I didn’t have anything to ask Delta.
I pointed that he made some good points in his arguments and I was more focused on having answers from UP

[Bazuf]

Fairly interesting how you didn't mentioned me as scum all game and how suddenly now I'm your lead scum read...
Really look forward to hear your arguments about that...

[Bazuf]

RE: PC post 737 and also further interactions with Snix:

How would Clap/UP/Snix flipping town would mean you and me are scum, since neither Clap/UP never made any case for you and me?
And why didn’t you include Delta in that equation, after that exchange between Delta vs UP, and him clearly showing uncomfort in being associated with a Clap/UP/Snix flip?
Also, why have you constantly had Delta in your scum suspicions, but you never really made a case for him or voted him?
You said yourself in 744 that vote is a way to show intention, but despite voting almost every single player, you always suspected Delta but never voted him…

[Bazuf]

PC do you think Snix is town?

with their opening I'll probably end up voting them over you. Too much dissonance in their posts. too much deflecting. too much trying to bait me into an argument. too much ate while claiming to be hyperlogical.

This doesn't work with what you're saying.

You're suggesting that they have no idea what your alignment is, but if they were scum they would.

Could this be a PC scum slip?

[Bazuf]

At this point I can’t imagine Snix/PC being a team… so here’s my associatives list:

If Snix is scum:
Then KKFC (by direct interaction) or Chicago (by no interaction) might be scum.
While Bazuf, PC and Delta are probably town.

If Snix is town:
Then Delta might be scum.
KKFC probably would be town (since UP made a case for town!KKFC)
But I’m not sure how to position other players, since I don’t think a Snix!town would make Bazuf, PC or Chicago either town or scum.


Teams that I find hard to exist:
KKFC + PC (Due to heated discussion earlier)
Delta + Snix (Due to heated discussion between Delta and UP),
Chicago + PC (Due to PC being tunnelling his vote on Chicago since D-1)
PC + Snix (Due to discussion when Snix entered the game)
Delta + KKFC (Due to Delta kinda scum reading KKFC on different occasions)

Teams that are still a possibility to me:
Delta + PC or Chicago
KKFC + Snix or Chicago
Snix + KKFC or Chicago
PC + Delta
Chicago + Delta or KKFC or Snix


HDF, you’re the only confirmed town atm.
What do you think of this?
Where should the town vote go in order to solve this?

I’ll try to do one for me as well if it helps:
Bazuf + Delta or Chicago (It could be possible)
Bazuf + KKFC, Snix or PC (impossible)

[Bazuf]

@Snix: who do you think is the scum team?

[Bazuf]

Why do you find Delta the obvious choice?
Just because other players are finding him scummy, or do you find anything in his game that seems scummy to you?

I agree that CT has not given much for town to work with, that’s why he’s always a possibility in my mind…
(If you see my post 797 he’s in all my possible scum teams)
But don’t you think it’s curious that in his last post he said that between you and Delta he’d prefer to vote Delta?
And what about the case that Delta has made about CT on D-1 for him suspecting PC but not voting?
Couldn’t you and CT also be a team together?
Or me and CT?

As for me, I don’t see how I have contradicted myself… I just argued that playstyle/meta ALONE are not enough to consider someone scum (or town).
But I can see how you could consider me and Delta a team. Although he was my very first suspicion on early D-1.


Despite my opinion of KKFC, I don’t think it’d be wise of town to lim him today.
So he’ll be left for another day (I’ll have to change my vote eventually).

That being said, we’re basically leaving PC, KKFC, HDF out from the possible lims.
Since you think I might be scum on associations/disassociations, I don’t think I’d be the wisest lim for today either.
However, if the town thinks that can gather any information from my lim, I’d be OK being limed today… but I can only accept that if there’s a logical plan for the next days.

Then it is between Snix, Delta and I’m adding CT to the board of possible lims today.


Chicago, who do you think is the scum team?

[Bazuf]

Honestly, at this point I think we’re fucked…

Between Delta vs Snix, I still think Snix is the scummier one of the two.
But I'm starting to think that this is just TvT and scum is opportunistically riding this wave to win the game.

Snix, I’m really sorry if you’re town, but I just can’t forget how scummy Clap and UP were.
Clap didn’t provide any reads, and when he was a bit pressured he said he was not having fun anymore and quit.
UP made a case against Delta with a lot of holes in it, which I asked him about, and they quit too.

They either are scum that sensed they were going to get limmed and quit, in order for town to rethink their slot with a new player
(I mean D-1 Clap quit and we ended up liming Mikhail, and now D-2 UP quit and we’re considering liming someone else too).
Or they were just awful town players, who have contributed absolute zero for town winning this game.

Clap should have been limed D-1, but unfortunately Mikhail happened.
Which btw, go search his other posts in the forum… he CAN talk like a normal person!
So, he was absolutely terrible as a townie and anyone trying to make him a martir can only be scum trying to get town cred.


And what is frustrating above everything else, is than Snix has made a very good point, that we should all be pressuring CT this day.
He gave absolute zero, he voted Delta, said he had a solid case on him, but time is running out and we still haven’t heard shit from him…
In fact, I’d like to hear from all the players voting on Delta what is their case on him.
Because, honestly, I want to vote him too, but if I’m going to be objective, I don’t really see a reason to…

The day is ending and I really feel like we should have pressured other people.
CT of course, and KKFC who’s been LAMIST all game (I know I’m tunnelling, and this may came to playstyle, but I simply can’t understand a townie playing like that).


So yeah, I really hope Snix flips scum!
Because if he flips town, then town has played this game really bad, specially me.
I should have pushed harder for us to pressure KKFC and CT, who’ve been buddying each other all game and have given shit in terms of scum hunting.
If Snix flips town, I think KKFC/CT are the scum team.
But in that scenario (snix flipping town), on D-3 we’ll probably end up limming Delta, or even me who somehow got involved there by association…


So, yeah, I really REALLY hope that Snix flips scum.
Otherwise, town is pretty much fucked!

[Bazuf]

UNVOTE:

We are 11 hours from the end of D-2.
So for now, I'll hold my vote and won't hammer just yet.
If it comes to it, I'll eventually do it and I'll vote Snix.

But in the remaining time I'd still like to see if we can get CT reasons for voting Delta.
I'm really curious to hear them.

[Bazuf]

Okay, the case on Deltabreedy:

Day 1:
Deltabreedy's day one activity is both weird and atypical Deltabreedy. I say this as having played games with him before, but I'm not scumreading him for that (at least, not currently). Let's take a look.

Clarify me this…
You are not scumreading Delta for what you describe to be “atypical” activity… but then you proceed to make a case for it?

Early Day 1 is an HFD wagon (28) which is justified by saying that HFD is scum-fishing(30). Next is a vote on me (54) for being inconsistent about my PC opinion. Deltabreedy later clarifies in (88) that I claimed PC had done something which was 80% indicative of scum. But both HFD's post and my post weren't doing either one of those things - HFD wasn't claim-fishing; and my post was widely misinterpreted,

by Deltabreedy

. There is a pattern here, and not a good one.

OK, I think Delta saying that HFD was claim-fishing was kinda a long stretch… But I don’t wan’t to believe a scum!Delta would be that obvious… Although I give you that.
Also the misinterpretation is kinda dubious, because I too have understood it differently and actually thanked you for clarifying it, because I too was reading it in other way… And I think this was much widely misinterpreted by PC than by Delta…
So, at the time, why didn’t you vote for PC?

Moving on after a gap, (223) is a new set of reads, but Jason, KKFC, and PC (

who are town

) are kind of pocket reads for Deltabreedy; he doesn't justify town-reading them.

Underlined the most interesting part…
We KNOW that Jason is town… but we don’t know that KKFC and PC are town… So… Why do you think they are town??
Is this TMI?

Then we get to the real kicker of Day 1 - after psyching himself up to not wagon MikhailTal in 334 and 337; Deltabreedy announces intent to hammer Mikhail in 340 despite claiming that 'there's a better than good chance that Mikhail is town'. At this point, I should note, the Snix/usesPython/ Claptastik slot is on the wagon and being replaced. JasonWazza pulls off, and Deltabreedy does not take this well as a result, eventually voting JasonWazza as a result (359). I am not going to lie, I just can't get over this being the stated reason for a hammer.

Deltabreedy also mentions in (858) that there was an olive branch, which isn't exactly a lie, but considering the olive branch was after the hammer attempt failed miserably, it does put some useful context on it.

The Mikhail hammer is debatable. And it makes me very frustrated, because I think clap would have been a better choice and would clarify things better for D-2.

And honestly, I think a Mikhail hammer was necessary because of the player being very obtuse, and if he was still in the game we would be having more troubles now… His presence would ultimately benefit scum, not town.

Mikhail wrote a lot in riddles, kinda like he was trolling us, which made him very hard to understand… and his conclusion was that I was scum, without giving any theory of why he thought that, except on “feelings” or something.

I remember you saying in a different game that the town must discuss things and be open about it, in order to find scum.
So I can’t really blame anyone for being on the Mikhail wagon (also, we have Mikhail himself on that wagon, and a mason on that wagon too… but funnily enough, you and KKFC are not on it).

Ultimate summary of Day 1: Deltabreedy spends early Day 1 voting for players after misinterpreting what they are trying to do. Is this deliberate? Maybe, maybe not. There are a few pocket reads; but that's not so strange (given he's scumreading the rest of the player base) and ultimately a hammer on MikhailTal under the logic of 'well, you may be town, but you're useless town so goodbye'. Any one of the three would be slight scumread on its own; but nothing worth eliminating over. Put all three together, and you start seeing things.

You reached the same conclusion as me…
This can all be read as slightly scum or not, you are just choosing to believe it is scummy, while I think it’ll be too easy…

Day 2:
Deltabreedy starts off arguing for the remaining Mason to reveal themselves, which isn't optimal play; but it's not a huge difference from optimal play. So, again, slight red flag. (Noticing a pattern?)

I notice a pattern of arguable points…
In that scenario, HFD could choose to wait for the game to develop more and reveal himself later…
But, what if he gets NK?
We wouldn’t have any information from what him/Jason (two confirmed townies) were thinking.

And even if he does not get NK, he advances for D-3 but it could be ELO, which it’ll definitely have a counter claim from scum.
HDF revealing himself right away took scum the opportunity to counter claim

So, you can argue that hiding the mason can in a sense benefit scum more than the town.

Day 2 is also where the 'meta' comes really into play here; and I agree with usesPython about this that Deltabreedy isn't sticking to his meta (which Deltabreedy doesn't dispute in 442); but I disagree that it means Deltabreedy is scummy. At least, by itself. I have not problems with players trying new strategies. That said, there's always the question of 'why' in these cases, and since I haven't yet figured out the reason for it (early game I thought Deltabreedy might have been a PR - and in fact, still quite possible), it's a flag for me. Just a little flag. Also, again, weirdly Deltabreedy is back on his meta for me in Day 2, going into page-long 1v1 against other players (which was slightly lacking on Day 1).

You characterize a red flag, which you don’t know why it is a red flag, but you don’t think its scummy… Huh??

This it the thing with you this game.
You’re not committing with your analysis.
You want to find Delta scummy, but you don’t know exactly how, so you’re characterizing little red flags, which you say that don’t make him scummy, but you think it makes him scummy nonetheless.
You’re not making sense Chicago.

I am also not wading through all that again, I spend enough time trying to catch up on the gamestate to go through all that. It's a 1v1 of either KKFC or usesPython, and then Deltabreedy ends up scumreading them both (838).

Day 2 isn't exactly what I would call a dedicated scum-case either; and yet, it's all the little flags right now that are doing it for me. Deltabreedy hasn't been working this game on trying to root out scum through careful and precise playing, he's whacking the gamestate with a metaphorical hammer until something scummy emerges and jumps on it; regardless if a) it's not scummy or b) Delta is the one who caused it in the first place. There's not really another player active right now who has this kind of a trail of chaos and half-a-dozen little red flags behind them.

I give you that…
Delta seems to be a lot over the place in this game and his discussions have escalated for places a bit out of the game analysis.
Do you think that this is scummy?
Well, for me it certainly isn't "normal" town behaviour…
But from the active 7 players, do you think he’s the scummier one? Well, that I don’t agree…

If Deltabreedy flips red, as a scumpair, I'd guess (off the cuff) PC - there's not a lot of meaningful interactions between them until a scumread at (747) which comes from nowhere and goes absolutely nowhere, though I don't have enough time to run pairs right now; that will be a task for tomorrow.

Interesting that you find PC can be his scum partner, when just above you said he was town.
Do you see where I’m having troubles reading you?


CT/KKFC have basically been defending each other all game.
Meanwhile CT all game only provided this kinda faulty read on Delta, was suspicious before of PC but never voted him.
And know in the same post he says that he finds PC town and then he finds him scum…


Honestly, at this point I wouldn’t oppose a CT lim to be honest …

[Bazuf]

@KKFC
I'm not even going to comment on you saying my analysis is generic, like you presented such a solid case on anyone really... Or like your Lamist arguments have to be accepted like unquestionable truths just because you said so...

At this point I think it's KKFC/CT, but could still be KKFC/Snix... But it is definitely KKFC...

And to be clear, I've made my case against you and I voted you, but the game somehow turned into a Delta vs UP/Snix shitfest for some reason...
Don't know exactly what you wanted me to do here...

But if this somehow motivates other players to a speed wagon before the deadline:
VOTE: KatyKimFanClub


@Chicago
What information exactly will town get from a Delta lim.
What do we find if he flips scum?
What do we find if he flips town?

Can you imagine a world where Delta and Snix are both town?

Chicago, if you can explain this clearly, I'll vote Delta.

[Bazuf]

@CT
So, if delta flips scum, then his partner is PC/Bazuf
If delta flips town, then Snix is "probably" scum.
Is this the "useful" information town get from a Delta lim??

Despite the odds, there's a chance that Delta/Snix are TvT.

Lets look at a possible Snix lim:
If Snix flips scum then other partner is KKFC
If Snix flips town, then Delta is "probably" scum, and partner probably is PC/Bazuf.

So how exactly is a Delta lim better than a Snix lim???
They seem the same to me, honestly...

At this point I can conform for a Delta lim, only on one condition:
If he flips town, we vote KKFC on the next day, not Snix...
And that's only because I think KKFC/CT or KKFC/Snix are a possibility, but don't think that Snix/CT are possible.

On the other hand, if you're so sure that Snix/Delta are SvT, let's go with Snix first and Delta second...
What would be the difference?

[Bazuf]

@CT
Well me being cleared at this point is irrelevant, most importantly we have to hit scum, either today or tomorrow, otherwise we lose.


@Delta
I won't say "advocating", more like "compromising".
And it is weird of you to say this, when you previously said that you and Snix were not a "binary" choice...
Are you more certain that one of you is definitely scum?

Me personally, I'd prefer to go with my gut on KKFC than lim any of you, but as it looks it seems I'll have to choose one of you...

[Bazuf]

@Delta
I understand that it is somehow established that the lim is between you and Snix, however I'm not really happy with that...
My scum choice is KKFC, and I'd be much happier to lim him... If not today, tomorrow...

And you didn't answer my question...
Are you absolutely sure that one of you is scum?
Because I'm not, and I think that your whole exchange with UP might have escalated and you are both just TvT...

So why exactly are we limiting our choices to you both?
We now have more extra time, so let's discuss this.
Am I the only one finding KKFC behaviour a bit scummy?
Am I the only one seeing a possible scum team in KKFC/CT?

Because if that's the case, just lim me already and get this going... I might be the one getting overly paranoid...

[Bazuf]

Lets look at a possible Snix lim:
If Snix flips scum then other partner is KKFC
If Snix flips town, then Delta is "probably" scum, and partner probably is PC/Bazuf.

So how exactly is a Delta lim better than a Snix lim???
They seem the same to me, honestly...

How can you say this and then push for a KKFC/CT team? It actually makes no sense? That team is in neither of the two cases you mentioned.

Does this post make sense to you, Delta?

Why should Bazuf want a vote on me today if he thinks, as of 880, that there's one scum between you and Snix, and that I'm not partnered with you?

This is obviously a misrepresentation...
Which only makes me thing I'm absolutely right about you being scum, otherwise you had no reason to be purposely misunderstanding my posts...

I was answering to CT regarding the Delta vs Snix and him saying that town would get more.info from a Delta.lim...
I was thinking aloud about the possible scenarios on a Delta and Snix Lim


I've already said plenty of times that I think that Delta and Snix are TvT.
I'll vote for one of them if it comes to it, but I've also said already that my prefer lim is you (KKFC).
So don't even try to misunderstand that...

[Bazuf]

@CT
There goes your theory that me and Delta are a team...

@KKFC
Would it be better if we came at the end of the day without a lim?
So eventually, if it was a choice between Delta and Snix, I would have to lim someone, right?
Are you being serious now?

[Bazuf]

I've already said plenty of times that I think that Delta and Snix are TvT.
I'll vote for one of them if it comes to it, but I've also said already that my prefer lim is you (KKFC).
So don't even try to misunderstand that...

Lets look at a possible Snix lim:
If Snix flips scum then other partner is KKFC
If Snix flips town, then Delta is "probably" scum, and partner probably is PC/Bazuf.

So are we TvT or are we SvT because you're really insisting that I'm scum either way - first with your vote and 2nd with your insistence that Snix!Town = Delta!Scum

I'm saying your scum with my vote???
Voting KKFC says your scum??
Huh??

Also, I've already explained that post...

[Bazuf]

@KKFC
Two reasons, or instead, two theories...
1. There's a chance the team is still you and Snix.
2. If you hammered and Snix flips town it would look bad for you either way...
It would look forced I think because you were already pushing for Delta, so it wouldnt make sense to switch like that for no reason

At this point hammering without discussing things is not really a town move, I think...

[Bazuf]

@KKFC
I agree it would be an easy lim, but you might have noticed by now that I'm not really for easy lims, otherwise we wouldn't really be having this talk...

Also, your reasoning for Snix applies to me as well...
If I'm scum, why wouldn't I just hammer Snix?
If he was my partner, why wouldn't I just vote Delta and lay low without causing all this fuss?

And you might have noticed that quite opportunistically, Delta has now voted me...
Do you take anything from that?


About PC, from interactions I could only thing of him as scum if he's paired with Delta, because they didn't have much interaction in game...
But I couldn't imagine him with CT or Snix, nor even with you...

[Bazuf]

@KKFC
Hypothetically speaking, if you're town the scum team for me is Delta/PC

[Bazuf]

Fresh new day, I’m thinking about the last posts…

I just don't see how that works, so if Snix were to flip town, I'd be essentially speedlimmed, but you also think it's TvT - but when I flip town Snix gets a pass?

Do you understand why I'm thinking you're setting up to win tomorrow after I flip town in this scenario? It's why you're committing so hard to KKFC now because the lim seems so clearly to be between Snix and I.

Answering this directly, if I were scum why would I advocate for a different lim and not just vote Delta?
Even if Snix was my partner, I would lim Delta today and tomorrow could try to argue for a different lim, or just go with the flow, lim Snix and then go to ELO.
And the same applies if Delta was my partner, I could already have limed Snix...
I don’t see how a scum!Bazuf would benefit from what I’m doing right now…

In fact, let’s imagine we do end up liming another player, as I suggested KKFC.
If he eventually flips town, I’d probably be the one getting limed next, so I don’t really see why a scum!Bazuf would pull this stunt…

Thinking about it, this would mostly benefit a scum team that does not have neither me or KKFC in it…

If Bazuf flips scum as I now think they will, that to me almost confirms Snix as scum that Bazuf was protecting with that nonsensical on KKFC.

I think you're onto something @KKFC

Ninja'd:
With your point two, that's Bazuf insinuating that it is TvT

It kinda seems that Delta is taking this opportunity to his advantage…
He was so sure about Snix being scum, but now he’s changed his vote to me, just because I questioned that there’s some probability that Delta/Snix are TvT.
Something that he has also said before, when he said it wasn’t a “binary choice”.

Again, if I were scum I could easily take CTs case over you, agree with it and vote for you…

*snip
So are we TvT or are we SvT because you're really insisting that I'm scum either way - first with your vote and 2nd with your insistence that Snix!Town = Delta!Scum

Can someone please address this?
How come that my vote on KKFC is insisting that Delta is scum?? This is a fuckin weird comment…

[Bazuf]

Also, it kinda makes sense that a scum!KKFC would hammer Snix, if his partner was not Snix.
So my theory about a KKFC/CT team is not as strong as I thought before, otherwise this day would probably be over already...

In that case, if I’m convinced that KKFC is scum, he could only be with Snix.
And if so, then we would definitely get information from a Delta/Snix lim.

VOTE: Deltabreedy

I guess I’ve convinced myself that this is really the way…
I completely understand KKFC asking me questions, because I've been suspicious of him all game...
But the way Delta has jumped on me, is very fuckin weird. Don't see why a town!Delta would do that...

[Bazuf]

You made me doubt my KKFC/Snix scumread with your reaction to my posts about you and Snix might being TvT.

So my POV now is that your lim will be conclusive.
If you flip scum = Snix is town.
If you flip town = Snix is scum.

So good job on you for making me realize that there’s definitely scum between you two.
And good job on KKFC for making me realize that a KKFC/CT team might be a long stretch, otherwise he would have hammered Snix already…

[Bazuf]

@the worst
I’m sorry for you joining the game at this state, most likely you’ll get NK tonight, but it is still very good to have the analysis of a new fresh set of eyes.


You said that my brain is scrambled, and you’re right… but I don’t think I’m the only one.
Because you yourself are trying to convince yourself of your CT scumcase, while you have many doubts about his partner…
KKFC has been wavering a lot on his reads too.
Snix came to play in defense mode, only to town read PC (who would be a genious move if they are the scum team) and then assumed he’d be limmed.
Delta has been in arguments all around and we never knew exactly who his scum reads were (Actually, could you tell us Delta?)

Only PC has been all game going after CT, but even him at some point switched vote to Snix, and now he’s seeing a chance to go back at CT.

And me believing that scum is taking advantage from a scum trap to think that Snix/Delta is TvT, and they’ll get both limed resulting in a scum win, made me look like scum.
Or even more stupid, made some players believe that me/Snix might actually be a team, after me going after UP and made a whole case about him and KKFC being a team.



Exactly what information will we gain from a CT town flip?
I think we’ll continue to be confused as fuck, and we’ll only get back to this Snix/Delta thing.

At this point, I just don’t think we can ignore the whole Delta/Snix.
I’ve tried to tell town that the scum could be somewhere else, and I got scum read for it, which can only make me believe that scum is within Delta/Snix.

If you prefer, we can do Snix first and then revisit if his partner is KKFC or CT on the next day.
But I don’t think I’m voting anyone else today besides Delta/Snix.

[Bazuf]

I'm not sure about the VC, but I think Snix is now at E-1??

I'm OK to hammer at any time, but I think your insight might be valuable for the next day.

In my mind, I can imagine the following scenarios:
Snix flipping scum = he's partnered with KKFC/CT... PC on a long shot (clears Delta)
Snix flipping town = makes Delta the next lim

Delta flipping scum = I can only imagine him partnered with PC... maybe CT on a long shot (clears Snix)
Delta flipping town = makes Snix the next lim

Both of them flipping town, town loses to a KKFC/CT team or KKFC/PC team (impossible to be PC/CT)

The thing is that if we hit scum on the first try, we have more time to figure out the partner and go to ELO with 3 players.
If we miss, we go to ELO with 5 players, which is not ideal to town.

HFD was a confirmed town and he voted Snix.
You are too and you're going with Snix. Do you think he seems scummiest than Delta?
If so, I'll hammer him eventually...

[Bazuf]

UNVOTE:

We need an updated vote count.
In about 6 hours I'll place my vote.

[Bazuf]

VOTE: Snix

[Bazuf]

At this point I think it's safe to assume that Delta is town...
I don't think his argue with UP would be just scum theatrics... Otherwise, he deserves a fuckin oscar.

Are we really going to forget how KKFC has been buddying this slot, with Clap, UP and Snix??
Really??

At this point I can conform for a Delta lim, only on one condition:
If he flips town, we vote KKFC on the next day, not Snix...
And that's only because I think KKFC/CT or KKFC/Snix are a possibility, but don't think that Snix/CT are possible.

This sets up a non-Snix lim on Day 3; which is definitely troubling. PC is trying to quick-lim me out of the gate; but to be fair, it's PC so trying to quick-lim me regardless of anything is kind of textbook for him. I'm not sure that's worth scum-reading him for.

I see what you mean CT.
I've been back and forth thinking things last day.
I've even considered the chance of a possible TvT between Delta/Snix, which thankfully wasn't the case...

But at the end of the day, I voted Snix while you voted Delta, which certainly doesn't look too good to you...

Also, you need to check my iso and you'll see that I've been after Claptastik and UP... You can't simply evaluate that post and not everything that happened before.

Evaluating intent, I've always had intent on liming that slot, while you never did, and I think that's a much important thing to look at.

I've been pretty insistent of a Clap/UP/Snix + KKFC team, and I think that's where town must focus this day.

I think we'll hit scum with a KKFC lim.
If by any chance he flips town, I think we'll go to ELO with Bazuf/CT/PC (because Delta is so town right now, that he'll probably get NK)

So I'll also reread CT/PC iso to see which of them is scummier, But I'm leaning on CT for the shit case he made of Delta, and not really pushing any intent on Snix slot.

[Bazuf]

VOTE: KatyKimFanClub

[Bazuf]

To be honest, I think a vote on me isn't the most unreasonable thing considering Claptastik, UP, and Snix all townread me. I am town though. FMPOV, I think it's down to CT or Bazuf, as I think UP interaction with Delta and Snix interaction with PC clears both of them.

Why is PC cleared though?

Snix entered the game in a slot that was about to get limmed (he even expressed his surprise for not being limmed earlier).
So what exactly would he do as scum that knew was getting limmed?
Getting in an argument with his partner and townreading him seems like a solid strategy...
Because evidently PC is getting town read for it...

I'll have to reread PC because I can't town read him solely for his exchange with scum!Snix, specially thinking that could be theatrics due to the context of it all...

[Bazuf]

I still don’t know how to feel about these last posts from PC.
I’m a bit short on time atm, but I’ll eventually have to ISO them…

However, I’m under the impression that PC basically tunneled CT all game…
And CT has been very low key, and only really made a case on Delta on D-2…


I’m only concerned if maybe I’m also tunneling KKFC too.
Although it would make sense for him to be Snix partner, and also explains why he didn’t hammered him when he had the chance.

PC had his vote on Snix when he was E-1, which could mean something.
While CT never had his vote on Snix/UP, and also made a case on Delta about town learning more from his lim than from Snix (which still doesn’t make sense to me).


@Delta:
I think you agree you’ll get NK.So I want to have your thoughts before the day ends.
I’m thinking you and me are town, and I’m trying to clear one more player. That way, town can lim the other two the next two days and win the game.

What do you think of KKFC?

[Bazuf]

@PC:
A Delta lim is not going to happen today, so make your peace with that… All you’re doing right now is acting scummy and making this game harder for town.

[Bazuf]

*snip
The way I see it, Delta and PC are confirmed to me.
Delta for D2 interactions with UP
PC for D2 interactions with Snix.

Now, the worst also laid a foundation for a PC townread, and honestly I think this gameplay is really weird and arguably at times not town-sided, but I think he's town. I don't even really want to think about the idea that he's scum until tomorrow.

This leaves a pretty easy CT -> Bazuf POE for me personally. I think a CT/Snix team has a lot of potential, as CT pushed on Delta pretty hard yesterday. I could also see the Bazuf/Snix team, as Bazuf didn't hammer Snix and also pivoted onto Delta after some prodding. Then again, this could be said for me too, though I eventually did vote for Snix.

Bazuf kinda hit the nail on the head for me.

Snix replaces in, sees that they're at least in a cross if not likely to be limmed and works to distance themselves from their partner. PC picks a fight with Snix, they distance and they go at it hammer and tongs but when the writing is on the wall, PC is off on the CT wagon whilst inciting the Snix Wagon. It doesn't check out.

You're clearing them based off of the same thing that I'm scumreading them for (one of several, anyway). Can you reconcile your TR of PC with today's events so far, KKFC?

@KKFC:
Your reason for townreading PC doesn’t really make sense to me, because the best play for a scum!Snix was to make his partner look town.
Their interaction could just be theatrics.
And it was different than Delta/UP interaction… because UP while was being pushed, it was still early in the day and we were not sure yet of who to lim, but on the other hand, Snix joined the game almost assuming that he was going to get limmed. And in that scenario, the best to do was to make his partner look town.

Please help me figure this out… can you townread PC on any other instance of the game, besides his interaction with Snix?
Maybe look into his interactions with UP/Clap?


Also, about post 1233, I’m glad you checked my ISO and checked I’ve always been pushing for a Clap/UP lim.
I was going to ask you how I was scummier than PC in a ELO situation, but I’m glad you noticed that wouldn’t make sense…

my argument is and always has been chicago is scum.

Can we get Chicago first and then cross this bridge tomorrow? If you and Delta are truly locked into a S v T (saying hypothetically it's not CT here) then both of you will live to tomorrow anyways.

@KKFC:
What makes you assume that Delta will live until tomorrow?

[Bazuf]

*snip
The only way this works out and PC survives is by limming between CT and I, killing the other one and then playing off of your commitment to PC!Town to force a cross with Bazuf which they'll win if your townread remains intact.

Their vote on me is motivated by raw desire to survive, not desire to lim scum. How do I know?

Because they townread me

.

This is what’s really bothering me…
PC is townreading KKFC (not sure why). KKFC townreads PC (not sure why).
And they both seem to want to go to ELO without Delta and CT, and lim me in ELO…
Now, if this is true, one of them is scum and the other is being played. Not sure who’s who…


Right now, I really don’t want to go to ELO with KKFC.
I confess that I’ve tunneled him, and I’m really sorry if I’m wrong, but the truth is that a scum!KKFC still makes sense with everything that happened in this game.
Since D-1 I imagined a Clap/KKFC team, was right about one and can still be right about the other..

And the thing is, that I feel that in a position of choosing between him and PC/CT, I’ll end up voting him because I’ve always been thinking that he might be scum.
If ELO goes Bazuf/KKFC/CT, I don’t think I’ll be able to look at CT correctly, because I’ve always been imagining a scum!KKFC.
If ELO goes Bazuf/KKFC/PC, I think they’ll both vote me and town will lose.


Delta, I need your help to help me solve this.
I sense you’re not entirely sure about KKFC either, and in this situation this is really bothersome.
We only have to clear one more player, but we still are not sure who..

I have a strategy for ELO up my sleeve, but it will only work if we all assume that scum is within KKFC/CT/PC.
So town will have to assume that me and Delta are both town.
But this should be discussed later in the day, not just yet…

For now, I want to hear from CT and understand what he thinks of all of this.
Do you also townread KKFC?

[Bazuf]

@KKFC:
What makes you assume that Delta will live until tomorrow?

Because I'm never voting for Delta today.

I know that… but what about the Night Kill?

@KKFC:
Your reason for townreading PC doesn’t really make sense to me, because the best play for a scum!Snix was to make his partner look town.
Their interaction could just be theatrics.

I don't think 1038 is fake.

Yeah… I don’t want to think that’s fake either.
But taking into account the nature of this game, you’d have to admit it would be a pretty genius play, right?

Please help me figure this out… can you townread PC on any other instance of the game, besides his interaction with Snix?
Maybe look into his interactions with UP/Clap?

Eh, it's not a strong argument, but off the top of the head sheeping Tal here isn't the worst idea. He was weird but he had a couple of good takes. Don't think he would antagonize me so badly D1 with his partner basically missing from the game.

Hmm, maybe… He has also put Clap at E-1 on early D-1.
Might be NAI because it was early in the game, but still maybe there was some intent there…
I have to look closely at PC interactions with Clap/UP.

But certainly is better than CT, which had basically no intent whatsoever on Clap/UP/Snix…
And also I think there was not much interaction either .

[Bazuf]

At this point, I'm just waiting to hear from CT before advancing anything further...

KKFC is voting CT...
PC, while I don't know exactly what he's doing voting Delta, I believe he's also inclined to vote CT...
I'm also inclined to vote CT...
Delta, are you more certain of a scum!PC or a scum!CT?
Please let me know what you're thinking...


Also, I think we should consider all possibilities here, so I think it would be beneficial for town to express two votes, in case the person we vote today flips town.
This is mainly to take advantage while we still have 5 players, and not "let things to be decided on ELO" when we're just 3 players.

I think this exercise will greatly help town figure out things for ELO, just in case our vote today flips town.

So, for example (this is just an example, since I'm still waiting to hear from CT):
Today's vote -> CT
If he flips town, ELO vote -> KKFC

I kindly ask other players to do the same exercise and share their thoughts.

[Bazuf]

Is that solely based on PC voting you today, or considering all game, you think PC seems scummier than CT?

[Bazuf]

Personally I'm going to wait for CT to come back, but I'm willing to sheep you here pending a personal reread on PC.

KKFC, I'm just going to point out here that you are the only person who was voting for me at this point. That's not sheeping.

Is that all you have to say?

[Bazuf]

Good game everyone!

This one had my head spinning
But glad we managed to get them. Nice one...


Can't help but feeling sorry for CT, which had his partner replaced two times.
And this was kinda telling for me, because really thought that Clap and UP seemed like caught scum.