Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[catboi]

[catboi]

VOTE: Menalque

totally frozen right now

[catboi]

Oh look. A game is happening.

We are Hirsute (werewolf miller)

VOTE: well done

mafia goon spotted

[catboi]

God, can we please just skip the RVS?

prob town

[catboi]

VOTE: catboi
Serious vote

Sweet
Join me on catboi then

The one experience I have with you is you having very good reads (and also, he didn't respond to me when I said hi to him), so I'm tempted. If it's a serious vote, can you explain the reason?

Oh sweet! I vaguely remember your username as being pleasant to play with? Gonna have to go back and look at the game we were in at some point, a boost of confidence is always nice

catboi's entrance feels very... limp? Make a few small comments, kinda game related but noncommittal, so you can't say he's not talking about the game but he's not actually moving anything forward. It's what I'd post if I wanted to start the game without eyes on me.

PEdit: yes, sorry, posting on phone, it likes to glitch

Hi kondi~

so, here's a question: what exactly are you expecting out of page 1 posting?

[catboi]

VOTE: norwee

[catboi]

Hi kondi~

so, here's a question: what exactly are you expecting out of page 1 posting?

I'll always be disappointed that my first mark on this site was from when I was 13. Not that I'm any better now <3

I don't really know how to answer that tbh! Lots of people do lots of different things early. Some people are gonna mess about, some people are gonna try to start something useful, and some people are gonna try to avoid getting pressure.
How about you?

In general in the early game I joke around and banter, maybe float a serious read if something strikes my fancy, but otherwise hang back and observe until I find things more readable.

Which is why it came across as strange that you're accusing me of being "noncommittal" and "not advancing the game", because...I'm not sure what you're expecting

on page 1

?

[catboi]

VOTE: catboi

hasn't solved the game yet, must be scum

That's my towntell actually

[catboi]

In general in the early game I joke around and banter, maybe float a serious read if something strikes my fancy, but otherwise hang back and observe until I find things more readable.

Which is why it came across as strange that you're accusing me of being "noncommittal" and "not advancing the game", because...I'm not sure what you're expecting on page 1?

When I read your posts it feels like you

want

me to think you're advancing things though.

This is giving you that impression?

Spoiler:

VOTE: Menalque

totally frozen right now

Oh look. A game is happening.

We are Hirsute (werewolf miller)

VOTE: well done

mafia goon spotted

God, can we please just skip the RVS?

prob town

A gif, two

entirely

joke votes, and a snap townread?

[catboi]

VOTE: Menalque

totally frozen right now

Although now I see this it would be rude not to return the favour

VOTE: catboi under 10 pages catboi lim? I believe, make my dreams reality for when I awaken on the morrow

OMGUS, totally caught

[catboi]

Compared to everything else in the thread, yeah.

PEdit hiii Menalque

*shrug*

Feels like a serious reach to me.

[catboi]

VOTE: catboi

He seems defensive. My previous vote was a good vote as well.

Yes, when someone makes an accusation against me I tend to defend myself.

[catboi]

Compared to everything else in the thread, yeah.

PEdit hiii Menalque

*shrug*

Feels like a serious reach to me.

what exactly are you expecting?

I'm not "expecting" anything - I'm trying to evaluate whether klick's reasoning is genuine or not.

[catboi]

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

[catboi]

VOTE: sword of ducks

feels like a decent bet

[catboi]

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

seems pretty basic

What exactly are you expecting?

[catboi]

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

Meant to respond to this.

That doesn't have to be a bad thing if you're a werewolf.

Why did you specifically mention werewolves?

[catboi]

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

seems pretty basic

What exactly are you expecting?

a d1 catboi quicklim

you?

To play the game of mafia

[catboi]

Because scum is basic, but werewolf is fancy and exotic. We don't usually see that around here.

dumb but my first impulse was to go "is that a faction slip?"

[catboi]

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

seems pretty basic

What exactly are you expecting?

a d1 catboi quicklim

you?

To play the game of mafia

bahahaha

I know, sometimes I have really stupid ideas

[catboi]

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

This seems like appeal to emotion and OMGUS.

If you say so!

[catboi]

VOTE: bnuuy

OMGUS's are scummy.

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

This seems like appeal to emotion and OMGUS.

In these posts, it doesn't feel like you are actually considering whether these things make the person in question scum. You're just going down a checklist of tells to call out to look like you're hunting.

Unfortunately I do not believe this is a scumtell for him

[catboi]

The main impression I get from catboi's latest posts is that he's actually rather uncomfortable with the votes on him

I mean, yeah, I generally dislike being pressured!

[catboi]

i like bnuuy more

VOTE: bnuuy

mmm if you want to go for a random lurker poke I think tictac would be better

[catboi]

The main impression I get from catboi's latest posts is that he's actually rather uncomfortable with the votes on him

I completely agree with this. The reaction was very much not what I expected.

PEdit: @save the dragons, I get what you mean, but I feel like a town response to the wagon would have been more along the lines of "lol how silly", and less "scum are TOTALLY HOPING FOR A QUICKLIM GUYSSSS"

(paraphrasing accuracy not guaranteed)

I discount pretty much nothing given the thread vibes at the time. I think it's absolutely possible to try to encourage a memey shitposty environment as scum (and have done so myself in a game when I felt it was beneficial). In the first NQN there was an early wagon on town who was, uh, trolling, and iirc a fair number of scum tried to join that wagon. I think if the opportunity presents itself scum are going to try to get an easy wagon to happe, and I think a decent starting point is to look through the people and see whose actions seem opportunistic.

Also, paraphrasing me in all caps feels like...you're trying to strawman me here by making me sound more panicky than I actually am?

[catboi]

i like bnuuy more

VOTE: bnuuy

mmm if you want to go for a random lurker poke I think tictac would be better

it's not a random lurker poke

bnuuy barfed in the thread with a useless post just to say something and then omgus'd i kinda want more

mmm, point taken

[catboi]

Only did a cursory skim of his scumgame in a mini normal, but I think butterchurn is town here.

[catboi]

Thanks for the explanation. In my observation of games here there seems to be much more tendency to over-analyse than randomly limming someone so I'm not sure how likely it is that scum here would expect an early wagon on you to actually result in a lim (also as one vote on the wagon in a game this size I know I at least am acutely aware of my insignificance!).

whilst the paraphrasing was not intended to be precise, "panicky" was indeed the impression that your posting gave me.

general tendency sure but things can change on atmosphere - in the last game town got pushed to E-2 on page 10. I think that even if it was...unlikely that I actually get speed-limmed, if I look at the pile of votes on me, I don't expect it to be entirely organic. I think that's honestly really basic analysis.

[catboi]

If I was in a neighborhood, would y'all wanna know, or would it be best to hold off on that for now

Only if you think someone in the hood is scum?

[catboi]

Lol

[catboi]

if I look at the pile of votes on me, I don't expect it to be entirely organic.

sure, but "don't expect it to be entirely organic" is different from expecting scum to be hoping for a quicklim

Gosh darnit, and i was hoping for a quicklim.
Foiled again by you meddling kids.

epic combo

[catboi]

I don't feel like the neighborhood reveal and the catboi wagon are coincidentally timed.

I think they were just jealous that catboi was getting all the attention and not them

false, i was getting the suspicion off of catboi.

thanks scumbuddy knew you'd have my back

[catboi]

Hey catboi, why did you not respond at all to my response to responding to my werewolf miller claim?

I don't know what I expected you to say, but was surprised that it was actually nothing at all.

My attention wasn't on the game thread when you posted it, ad when I came back it wasn't interesting enough to respond to. My vote on you was entirely non-serious, I believe you're being truthful with the roleclaim.

Actually, if there's a Mafia Miller, they should claim.

Multiball games generally have semi symmetrical setups, not exact, of course, and if there's a Werewolf Miller claim, then there should be a Miller. If there isn't, I say we power tunnel Well Done.

last setup had both a mafia miller and a werewolf miller, I'd expect similar symmetry here - I also expect that being a miller is entirely unrelated to alignment. Last time had a mafia miller who was actually mafia. (he didn't claim at all)

[catboi]

tracer scum for not trying to murder me yet obviously

[catboi]

nah but really he's town

[catboi]

Can someone remind me.
Doesn't malefactor need to be alive to win with scum? Or do they just win as long as any maf wins?

check your role PM again

[catboi]

So Titus, what do you think of catboi and his wagon

Early wagon, passive votes on wagon. Good for VCA.

As for Catboi, I lean town there.

why am i town

[catboi]

How is this game at 11 pages already.

hot take: commenting about the page count is >rand scum

[catboi]

Catboi bussing his n00bscum on page 1

classic

the trick is I'm trying to spew him town after I get crosskilled

[catboi]

How is this game at 11 pages already.

hot take: commenting about the page count is >rand scum

is this actually true or is it just something people say so much that they believe it to be true

low lvl scum struggle to keep up with hyperposting

[catboi]

I've played with Sword before and he is just kind of Like This

When have you played with Sword before? This appears to be the first game that that account has played.

I've played a couple games with him on our homesite - a couple games where I was town and he was scum, and a game where I was scum and he was SK

so yeah, haven't seen his town game but in my experience he does tend to post like this even when it's not really strategically optimal, so i am not sure it's an intentional strategy / alignment indicative

I will stand by that I think he will become easier to read as the game goes on tho

Do the games on that site tend to be more casual?

[catboi]

How is this game at 11 pages already.

hot take: commenting about the page count is >rand scum

is this actually true or is it just something people say so much that they believe it to be true

low lvl scum struggle to keep up with hyperposting

that doesn't answer my question

okay let me just crunch the numbers in my spreadsheet to see if it's true

[catboi]

How is this game at 11 pages already.

hot take: commenting about the page count is >rand scum

is this actually true or is it just something people say so much that they believe it to be true

low lvl scum struggle to keep up with hyperposting

that doesn't answer my question

I do not put any weight to this scum tell personally. I have been accused of it multiple times and I was town in each instance, :shrug:

i mean, like

you remember how NQN1 went, right

[catboi]

i know you're being sarcastic but that's literally what i was asking for

Interesting project, but one that goes beyond the scope of this game

[catboi]

I've played with Sword before and he is just kind of Like This

When have you played with Sword before? This appears to be the first game that that account has played.

I've played a couple games with him on our homesite - a couple games where I was town and he was scum, and a game where I was scum and he was SK

so yeah, haven't seen his town game but in my experience he does tend to post like this even when it's not really strategically optimal, so i am not sure it's an intentional strategy / alignment indicative

I will stand by that I think he will become easier to read as the game goes on tho

Do the games on that site tend to be more casual?

Depends on what you define casual as.

I mean like, a lot more random bandwagony, sheepy, people voting for jokey reasons, more reliant on mechanics like investigative roles than making social reads

[catboi]

UNVOTE: sword of ducks

might be missing on the playstyle


VOTE: malcolmtucker

[catboi]

i mean, like

you remember how NQN1 went, right

Also, @ catboi, yeah I do remember how NQN1 went

Spoiler:

My first post:

Hello. It is page 8 already

VOTE: T3

And Ydra calling me scum for it

Luke felt a little stilted on entrance as if he was like "hi I don't know what to say oh wow haha eight pages!"

well shit, guess I have to selfvote

[catboi]

UNVOTE: malcolmtucker

Convinced that's a lazy read on my part.

VOTE: Titus

reaction to tracer was over the top and defense of me felt white knight-y - despite the early BW I don't actually feel like my play this game has been particularly AI so far

[catboi]

Well Flavor leaf is not pinging town, and they aren't town reading each other evidently.

It'd be more concerning if Flavor Leaf was pinging town right now.

[catboi]

Well Flavor leaf is not pinging town, and they aren't town reading each other evidently.

It'd be more concerning if Flavor Leaf was pinging town right now.

stop pocket

nya

[catboi]

How is this game at 11 pages already.

hot take: commenting about the page count is >rand scum

is this actually true or is it just something people say so much that they believe it to be true

I don't have data or anything if that's what you're asking

Though this made me want to go look at Malcolm's past large games to see if he's complained about the same thing before. There's only been one large so far, but the vibe doesn't feel the same so good enough for an early gutread

Spoiler:

Subject: Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

Lot to catch up on here, will do a readthrough of what I've missed so far.

You know, I did the

exact same thing

- although there was less grousing from him in that other game, if you look at the timestamps it was slightly earlier, and he only got out a few posts before stopping and coming back much later. probably really did have to sleep, don't think his intro to this game is AI.

still awarding you credit for process anyway

[catboi]

Long day today, need some time to catch up, not sure I'll get through everything tonight.

- I'm not really vibing with the wagon on monkeyman - to me it feels like he's getting voted for having

weird

or

irrational

opinions, not necessarily

scum-motivated

ones. The stuff he says might seem bizarre but I feel like he actually believes what he's saying. The pressure on him feels opportunistic in nature.

- actually feel like mala's entrance to the game, has more energy than I'd expect if she rolled scum here.

Yo, very important to note:

I am a Beloved Princess

.

No, seriously; no joke; this is a realclaim. (I can fullclaim the wording use, but I've reason not to.)

Obviously, this needs to be said since eliminating me during the day is a Very Bad Idea. (I'll need to ask a question to the mod about Vigs tho.)

I may or may not be feeling like playing tonight but it'll either be shortly or not until tomorrow-at-earliest.

...I am incredibly annoyed if Ceph actually put a goddamned beloved princess in his game, but I have absolutely no reason to believe mastina would lie about this or claim it in her first post. Also just, uh, generally feels better than her scumgame, although it's early and if she fades down the stretch it'll be evident.

- norwee kind of feels like he's overplaying the mastina paranoia a bit

Every day that goes by without Catboi trying to kill Mena I become more convinced they are on the same team

- 520 from STD is self-contradictory but in a way that I feel like scum wouldn't post it

[catboi]

This is more of me echoing Well Done's concern that the mod might not put a beloved princess in to be randomized in this setup

That is not our stance

We said that we have doubts whether a beloved princess would be aligned with the mafia/werewolf factions

My belief is that in general mastina does not fake claim, regardless of alignment, except for in extreme circumstances. They claimed beloved princess? That's their real role. Now figure out their alignment. We are against eliminating the beloved princess.

Dw.

I’ll just persuade Catboi to vig her for real this time

sigghhhhhhhhh

the stupidest thing is the mold claim scared me off


not that it would have mattered because scum had a doc

[catboi]

Relying on percentages is moot because we don't know if everyone was an opportunity for each role. Some roles may be locked to a certain faction (i.e. A seer and an alpha werewolf exist, seer can be any alignment but alpha is forced to be ww)

That said those percentages are for a 3 person monastery or masonry correct?

UNVOTE:

VOTE: megazumarill

scummy pop-in

[catboi]

@catboi Idk what you mean exactly regarding 520 but I’m just gonna trust it anyway

meh in general I think he's decently towny so far (I think as mafia he'd try to play more in the background while here he feels like hes at the front of things). That particular post felt like it was working out a set of complicated feelings about the mastina claim - had a similar reaction to me ("does ceph really put such a terrible role in his setup", except obv it's a little more personal for him), and talking about wanting to elim her but feeling like she's more likely town feels more like an authentic thought process

I mean yadda yadda scum can have authentic thought proces since it's multiball but it looked less like a post scum would make to me

[catboi]

This is probably an all scum hood. Sigh.

What is “this”?

FoS: MonkeyMan

I have to ask, why the FoS on monkeyman? Did you not want to move your vote off Save The Dragons, and if so, why not?

[catboi]

I feel like the discussion about mastina's roleclaim is kind of pointless, since roles are likely randomized. The mod specifically said he wanted to incentivize day play, probably to discourage exactly this kind of speculation.

So having said all that, I'm surprised no one has mentioned anything about mastina and her reads coming into the game.

Why are some RVS votes town, another scum, and yet another classified as "town?" in 426 and 428?

that's the mastina experience

it's the most null intro possible. she will give you an explanation, it will probably not satisfy you, probably better to wait for more from her to read her

[catboi]

- I'm not really vibing with the wagon on monkeyman - to me it feels like he's getting voted for having weird or irrational opinions, not necessarily scum-motivated ones. The stuff he says might seem bizarre but I feel like he actually believes what he's saying. The pressure on him feels opportunistic in nature.

I can't speak for everyone who is voting him, but I don't think that's an accurate assessment of my scumread on him, at least. It's certainly not about his opinions. I think the way he responds to questioning is slimy. He has consistently made statements that appear confident, but when asked about where the basis of each statement is coming from, he has at times weakly defended it, or clearly made up a reason to justify it, or dodged the question, until finally usually coming back to say that the original statement was a joke or that it shouldn't be taken seriously. Saying that about an RVS vote is fine. But about reads made on page 20 of a game? And even if that is the case, why take the extra step of trying to justify it initially? The approach just feels scummy to me, like he cares more about his own appearances than about whatever it is he's saying.

I did feel a little hesitant, since he is the highest postcount player so far (mostly due to the pressure on him) and so maybe there's just more things to pick on, and maybe he would have been more likely to quiet down and let things blow over if he were scum. I could see some of the votes like tictac sticking around from RVS being opportunistic. But that could always come from the opposite scum faction. I still like the chances of it being scum.

I just remember he was limbait every game on NoPowerOverMe for being annoying and this feels more or less similar to that. I don't think him having crappy justification for reads is scummy.

[catboi]

Malcolm looks like he's genuinely solving

[catboi]

i like bnuuy more

VOTE: bnuuy

mmm if you want to go for a random lurker poke I think tictac would be better

What is the purpose of expressing a pref, while scorning both actions?

Ahem
VOTE: catboi

that's not what I was doing, but looks like I struck a nerve

VOTE: tictac

[catboi]

Malcolm looks like he's genuinely solving

Not necessarily a town tell in multiball, but i am not caught up at all so I’m not really defending/going against Malcolm right now.

Yeah I know but I dont think the votes on him are particularly good either

[catboi]

i like bnuuy more

VOTE: bnuuy

mmm if you want to go for a random lurker poke I think tictac would be better

What is the purpose of expressing a pref, while scorning both actions?

Ahem
VOTE: catboi

that's not what I was doing, but looks like I struck a nerve

VOTE: tictac

no? What is incorrect? "Random lurker poke" isn't derisive or poke on me isn't preferred to poke on bnuuy from ur pow?

I think random lurker pokes are perfectly fine and bnuuy's posts to that point felt fine. Yours felt like mildly scummy disengagement.

[catboi]

Why does me being mildly scummy mean a lurkerpoke on me is better idea? What is the purpose of lurkerpoke if 8ts not encouragement to post more?
Why vote me just now if I was scummy then? What is the nerve u think u struck?
Pedit at catboi

I like my vote on sword of ducks more. That doesn't stop me from outing a gutread on you. Your irritation at being mentioned in this context is actually really scummy.

[catboi]

I don't mind being scumread. The combo of "lurkerpoke" and me being a better target than bnuuy is weird specifically cause 8t didn't feel like expressing a read

That's because it's a suggestion for pressure on a weak read, which is going to be most reads on page 6 of a large theme game

[catboi]

Malcolm looks like he's genuinely solving

uh

where?

Don't like the initial vote on monkey but although underexplained 418 is a start, and 491 to 648 looks like he's trying to actually analyze and figure out monkeyman rather than blindly pushing him. That kind of progression can be faked but monkeyman is still a wagon, could easily keep pushing it, instead forcing himself to give other thoughts. The immediate evaluation of Norwee unprompted in 653 looked like he saw someone and decided to investigate, like he's pulling at threads to see what comes out. And again similar where he digs up a cassowary post in 658 when it's not being discussed by anyone, and it's interesting, thoughtful analysis picking at someone's post. Not necessarily on board with a hypocrisy case but the reasoning feels more detailed than you typically get from noob-scum

For a newer player it's fairly decent, hasn't felt like he's making pushes in a dishonest way, and is looking for things to analyze. Don't get the hate? I get he annoyed you by pushing you but I don't think it looked ill intentioned.

[catboi]

Hey what's up

[catboi]

I see my good friends are throwing me a party in the latest votecount

[catboi]

i meant tracer

sorry not bc

damn avatarsss

also is catboi just a policy lim atm

...are you shitting me right now? I've not been gone from the game for 24 hours, what the fuck are you talking about?

[catboi]

...oh, for a minute I thought you said JUICY policv lim, lmao. I was like, "What did I ever do to deserve this from you!?"

[catboi]

Catboi & Mena are mafia together btw

we start with the dangerous one first

VOTE: Catboi

my scum list currently is:

Catboi
Mena
Flavor Leaf

I had 3 other scumreads but I forgot them because shit for memory

See, here's the thing about this: Tracer Bullet is pooky. And yes, pooky co-won paragon last year, etc. But pooky is developing some extremely bad habits.

He dosen't scumhunt, he

headhunts

. He just pushes players out of fear of their scumgame rather than reading their alignment. He did it to me and skitter in that game. He was right on skitter, but wrong on me, because it was inconceivable to him that I could possibly be playing any differently.for reasons other than my alignment. Frankly I'm not sure he actually cared.

It's a shit way to play and completely insufferable. And whatever happened, good riddance if he was pulling that shit again here.

[catboi]

Boy this dickwaving contest is extremely fun to read I tell you what

[catboi]

Catboi & Mena are mafia together btw

we start with the dangerous one first

VOTE: Catboi

my scum list currently is:

Catboi
Mena
Flavor Leaf

I had 3 other scumreads but I forgot them because shit for memory

See, here's the thing about this: Tracer Bullet is pooky. And yes, pooky co-won paragon last year, etc. But pooky is developing some extremely bad habits.

He dosen't scumhunt, he

headhunts

. He just pushes players out of fear of their scumgame rather than reading their alignment. He did it to me and skitter in that game. He was right on skitter, but wrong on me, because it was inconceivable to him that I could possibly be playing any differently.for reasons other than my alignment. Frankly I'm not sure he actually cared.

It's a shit way to play and completely insufferable. And whatever happened, good riddance if he was pulling that shit again here.

What’s the point of this post though?

I agree with you that the style of play wasn’t great, but I’m not sure why you felt this post was necessary to make, particularly with Tracer having replaced out.

To demonstrate that no one should take his pushes seriously because he's not actually basing them off of reads but wanting people to be scum

[catboi]

and he should've jumped you for it

but he didn't

so probly scum together

Do you think Menalque's posting re: you having a problem with him was +town?

I agree that Catboi's play has been very ~off~, but I'm not as sure that they're scum together.

Without getting into it, I will say there is a reason for this, but it is largely that I have not had time to commit to this game just yet. I would

hope

that people on this site would understand that it's okay to be patient on Day 1.

[catboi]

What I’m interpreting from this is that based on Pooky incorrectly scumreading you for reasons you thought were bad in a previous game, you are arguing that anything he has said here is invalid.

Yes. There's no reason you should expect him to have caught me as scum here because he's just doing the same headhunting tunnel he did in the other game. He has not learned anything.

[catboi]

Okay, how so?

[catboi]

The TB dustup is just exceedingly gross to read

[catboi]

I think sword of ducks is actually very likely town now. For reasons.

[catboi]

I’m not sure that there is an answer that could be reasonably expected outside of “you just do”.

What if I said that's a shit answer?

[catboi]

I’m not sure that there is an answer that could be reasonably expected outside of “you just do”.

What if I said that's a shit answer?

Then I would wonder whether you asked the question in order to elicit a shit answer, thus dampening the impetus of suspicion against you.

I asked you the question to try to get you to justify your reasoning. It looks like you're having trouble backing up your accusation.

[catboi]

How many games have pooky and catboi played in together anyways?

Too many

[catboi]

More likely you just asked it without really thinking about whether the response would be useful, but this is fun

Well, In the game of mafia, you are going to get accused of being scummy from time to time

Now, some of the time, the people pushing you are just townies who are trying to find mafia as well but as misreading you

But other times, the people pushing you are mafia, and they are doing so for bad reasons, because it is part of their win condition to get you killed

So, you see, generally I do this thing, right

When someone is pushing me I question them to try to figure out if they are suspecting me for genuine reasons or are being disingenous. This is the part of the game called "trying to get a read on people".


What I asked you was a fairly simple and non-threatening question question. You accused me of seeming "panicky". This is an incredibly vague descriptor that doesn't actually say a whole lot. It's easy to throw these sort of catchall attacks at someone - "panicky" "defensive" than it is to back it up. To explain both

why I seem panicky

and further,

why that makes me scum

. I don't really respond well to being wagoned as either alignment - I posted over 300 times in a newbie game where I got wagoned Day 2 on the basis of the claimed tracker faking a "reaction test" on me that I supposedly "failed", and spiraled into an obsessive paranoia-spiraling "solve" that was completely wrong. I was

certainly

panicky that game, and I was town!


It seemed possible at the time you just seem to be hung up on a misconception about me. That would be understandable, and I would not blame you for that. I fully admit my activity has tailed off after the first few days. This game started at a bad time for me. It had remained in signups for a long time, and when it started I had become involved with other activities that commanded more of my attention. So when you say "undrwhelming", sure, I get it, makes sense. That's a plausible misconception. When I come back and you accuse me of being

panicky

, I ask you to explain it anyway, because maybe you're hung up on the wrong idea. I don't think that's a good read, or even an accurate description of my return to the game thread. But it's plausible that you genuinely read it that way.

However, when you give a response of "idk you just do", it looks like you're just stretching to make a bullshit accusation to push a case that cannot be justified. It looks like you haven't actually thought this through and are going after flimsy reasoning you think you can force through. Now suddenly alarm bells are ringing because it doesn't look like you are actually interested in trying to sort me. It looks like you're making a bad faith shitpush using generic words and then using my response to getting pushed by you as justification for continuing the push. It feels like you're not approaching me in good faith.

[catboi]

VOTE: Wallflower

[catboi]

Spoiler:

Why are people complaining about the number of pages (and also complaining about people complaining about the number of pages) and not the fact that there seems to be a number of posts dedicated to arguing what “mafia miller” means?

Does it get any better?

I have to say I did not expect anyone to answer my question in good faith. Y’all are the best. <3

Now I’m up to the BP stuff and it seems like we’re still talking about it but I’m probably going to be with Menalque on this one.

That was a different page

I keep trying to read through the last 10 or so pages but right now my eyes glaze over and I keep forgetting what it is I'm even doing (I am quite tired rn!!) I do have some thoughts, such as being okay with the Malcolm wagon, but also that Malcolm's response to it will be telling. I also agree with catboi re: the MonkeyMan wagon whilst also remaining suspicious of catboi (yes, I cannot seem to just let it go) so that's probably going to need some sorting out at some point, but right right now that's just too complex a thought so it will just be staying there as mafia soup in my mind.

I think Malcolm is town

do you actually know that or is this just a hypothetical of if you told me that?

The first.

okay second question: is this like

knowing

knowledge, or "I really don't think it sounds like koba" knowledge?

I think Malcolm is town

yeah, malc is old news, you should hop on the hot new bnuuy wagon!

I was indeed a bit disappointed when I caught up and realised that my opinion was not that ~different~ anymore.

I still think catboi is scum though. I have a theory regarding their play that I want to sit a bit on before talking about because I need more of a sample size, but it reassures me that Tracer appears to be thinking similarly.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

bad feeling bad feeling!

Can you elaborate

gut read, but I have nothing to trust except my gut this game

why is that specific to this game?

my scum list currently is:

Catboi
Mena
Flavor Leaf

I had 3 other scumreads but I forgot them because shit for memory

probably means they weren't worth remembering

I like those three though. Catboi is the only real scumread for me but Mena and FL are explicitly not-townreads.

I would say Wallflower’s last comment is scummier than TB, though, for the piggyback adding momentum to a townie.

If either of them were scum, I’d base it more on luck than TB actually catching them, though

What if I'm the townie and Tracer is just sheeping me, huh?

but Mena and FL are explicitly not-townreads.

oh, cool, could you expand pls?

What is there to expand on? I don't think anything you've done so far is particularly town-indicative. Do you disagree?

saying that papa leaf is not good at scum is just

sort of baffling

this post is odd given the not-so-serious manner of Tracer's post

but Mena and FL are explicitly not-townreads.

oh, cool, could you expand pls?

What is there to expand on? I don't think anything you've done so far is particularly town-indicative. Do you disagree?

I mean, a bit, given that you and I have never played before

I think I'm being fairly pro-active about pushing the game forward so far having led/banded together support for not one but two wagons, and taken a hand in steering it away from boring-as-shit mechtalk

plus people who have never played with me before tend to townlean me at least when I'm being mostly clear about why I think what I think and not deliberately and arse-ily evasive so it was kinda weird to see you call me out as an "explicit non-townread"

That sort of stuff all seems like things you would do as scum in an effort to be read as town though?

I do want to make clear that even though I don't townread you, I have enjoyed your posts and I agree that it feels like you have had a positive impact on the gamestate. But I'm not really sure that you would play differently as scum.

and he should've jumped you for it

but he didn't

so probly scum together

Do you think Menalque's posting re: you having a problem with him was +town?

I agree that Catboi's play has been very ~off~, but I'm not as sure that they're scum together.

Flavor Leaf is more interested in talking about how he's scum!god than actually catching scum in this game.

Therefore

Flavor Leaf is scum

I don't think this is alignment-indicative tbh

lol

I am not sure on Tracer's alignment here, but a few of us were in a Micro Normal where I know at least in my case I let a negative perception of Tracer wrongly influence a scumread there.

I am seeing some similarities in read leaps and responses here which make me hesitant to see Tracer as scum, especially since there are not enough people here who played the micro game for playing in the same way to be worth it.

PEdit: I've changed my mind. I have a cautious townread on Tracer.

I can't wait for Town Paragon Flavor Leaf to show up on Day 4 with the solution

Day 3?

I think you’re all good as town and as scum.

Meanwhile I have a 0% win rate on this site and I think you should sheep me on catboi

Okay, this is clearly personal, and regardless of your alignment, I think you should stop.

I pushed mena/catboi as a team and voted catboi

mena's been trying to make this shit personal for ???? reasons

I've been trying to get him to explain his townread of catboi

he continues not to.

so like lol sure

keep pretending we're the same

we're not.

I think if you come back to the thread later and read your own posts with a level head you will see that you were the one taking shots at people and making things personal and generally being antagonistic. But you probably already know that, and this was probably intentional to cause chaos and rile things up, so it probably doesn't matter what I say anyway.

I think it’s a tempting idea to think that someone is intentionally causing chaos like this, but I have wrongly thought this about Tracer before.

well that was a fun series of posts to catch up on

I don't really see the case on Malcolm as scum, I think he looks pretty townie to me for now.

No real opinion on any of these meta reads, these do nothing for me, I know none of you. I'm sure you're all very cool and good at mafia. However I do think looking over Flavor Leaf's iso, a lot of his posting has been kind of reactive and/or meta discussion, which is pinging me a little bit.

I kind of see the point on monkeyman that he's acting

weird

but not necessarily scummy. Not sure he's my top suspicion at the moment.

pedit: originally I moved my vote to flavor leaf here but then he made a couple nice posts with detailed reasoning and now I'm conflicted again.

I'm not really sure I see the case on catboi as scum, to be honest. I suppose it's possible but

nothing about their posts is really particularly sticking out to me.

Honestly, you'll have to forgive me for being a bit all-over-the-place at the moment, this is the first time I've played a multiball game

or

a hydra game, so it's a bit tricky to read people in ways I'm used to and it's kind of a lot to deal with, haha. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it with time though.

One game town with the same exact role, two games I played poorly as mafia, and one

fantastic

role madness game as a serial killer.

Just to be clear, you're claiming you've rolled vanilla townie in this game?

And herein lies one of the issues

Does it look like this person actually cares about trying to solve the game? half her poosts are throwaway filler responses to other people, she's just riding off other people's reads, there's no evidence to show she has any thoughts on the game that are her own.

[catboi]

My first game had catboi scum iirc, we lost handily

No, I was just honorary scum in that game who hard tunneled town, including you. Scum team was Save The Dragons and Roden.

But I digress.

[catboi]

As someone who knows who Tracer's main is, and knows that he and I are about the same generation, I honestly don't see them as an asshole, and still don't get it when I see it called out.

Maybe it is a generational thing, but I am probably a bigger dick more often than Tracer is. Nothing he did this game strikes me as being an asshole, and I think he got sick of hearing it.

Tracer slot is a hard town read. I am mildly hopeful he rescinds his request for replacement, if it's even possible (probably not).

I pretty much skimmed everything else.

He was being a huge dick and has a strong grudge against flavor leaf for whatever reason. I also don't actually think it's alignment-indicative for him.

[catboi]

Does it look like this person actually cares about trying to solve the game? half her poosts are throwaway filler responses to other people, she's just riding off other people's reads, there's no evidence to show she has any thoughts on the game that are her own.

What about their more recent posts, including where they listed their townreads?

Assembling a list doesn't tell me anything. The townreads didn't look hideous but scum can give townreads of people easily. The problem is she doesn't have real thoughts. I started to skim her towngame in a recent micro but I'm still trying to catch up on this game.

[catboi]

I've seen bigger assholes (/wave @LLD /wink). Tracer is pretty tame.

Probably don't want to continue this discussion any further.

[catboi]

So, for whole game you used "Scum" 25 times, but now used "Mafia" term.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

prob town.

So, for whole game you used "Scum" 25 times, but now used "Mafia" term.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

That's interesting, potentially a good catch. They seem to have noticed the slip immediately and attempted to correct it, as well.

I like this too

That is probably a town-indicative post for Enchant, yeah

[catboi]

Does it look like this person actually cares about trying to solve the game? half her poosts are throwaway filler responses to other people, she's just riding off other people's reads, there's no evidence to show she has any thoughts on the game that are her own.

What about their more recent posts, including where they listed their townreads?

Assembling a list doesn't tell me anything. The townreads didn't look hideous but scum can give townreads of people easily. The problem is she doesn't have real thoughts. I started to skim her towngame in a recent micro but I'm still trying to catch up on this game.

Do you think there’s a possibility that your suspicion of me is a reaction to me trying to figure you out in a similar way to how you are trying to figure me out?

I don't think you're trying to figure me out. I think you're trying to shitpush me.

[catboi]

I think that you and I have had similar constraints in relation to time able to be spent on the game, and I don’t have the capacity to make a *big post* right now, but the summary of my thoughts is that your play has been strongly affected by suspicion of you, and I think this is done in a way that is scum-indicative (pushes based on positioning rather than generated from a place of solving).

Huh, wow, that's a lot of words that mean absolutely nothing

[catboi]

pretentious alt tries terrible shitpush, gets scared and runs off

[catboi]

Reading bnuuy's ISO. Not drawing any conclusions from it. Kind of seemed fillery, the way they FoSed monkeyman rather that joining the bandwagon seemed odd, like they might have been wanting to contribute to the pressure without looking like they were being opportunistic. Kind of like being more questioning of FL townreading them and not caring much about the scumreads, though. Reference to getting scumread for playstyle, might have to check that out. Still feels aggressively null, could easily be the type of limbait player I frequently misread.

[catboi]

I have more to say on wallflower but I want to actually get a broader view of the game rather than just continuing to yell about them.

[catboi]

It's not really a compromise. I really think MegA has a decent chance of flipping scum and generally feeling meh about the other popular wagon offerings right now

So I was going to say, typing up reads, but MegAzumarill and Toogeloo voting me is, like, expected behavior for them. They both have...low-effort playstyles, sheeping the largest wagon is totally within their town range. I don't read anything into it. For Toogeloo it's slightly +town because he's not even trying to look town or care about having reasons. I don't know Meg's scum game so can't say for sure any conclusions on the vote. First few posts in their ISO look all right, they had that random popin I hated and not much since then. Not really enough to draw a conclusion from, I feel like they'll be more readable over time.

[catboi]

is it the easiest wagon to get going?

The easiest in the sense it was most likely to get going presumably from that situation.

Others might be able to get votes, but who all besides me was going to protect WallFlower, and I even doubt that I was being considered to defend WallFlower here.


Coming after myself or Norwegian would have been far more difficult, and while definitely possible, required an unnecessary 1v1 that I don’t believe scum wanted right there.

Both meg or toogeloo would be significantly easier eliminations, I could easily have screamed about them being opportunistic in voting me, they're incredibly easy players to mislim.

I don't think you're scum, I'm leaning town on you. I don't have a read on Norwee.

[catboi]

On a skim I actually think norwee might be scum here. The towniest thing he had was his dust-up with malcolm, but other than that he's been floating and it reminds me a lot of his play in control where he was the SK. He'll call people town but it doesn't seem like he had reads he actually cares about and as town generally he finds something he wants to push and actually tries to solve.

[catboi]

I think it's much easier to get 12 votes on WallFlower than Meg/Toog, and it also doesn't seem like the easiest wagon, but it definitely is the correct one to push as scum here.

I don't think that's remotely true, generally it's super easy to take advantage of the LHF/lurky style players and push a wagon through on them as scum, someone like T3 for instance I just shoved to mis-eliminate every game.

I'd probably rate these players as the easiest ones to push here: Toogeloo, MegAzumarill, bnuuy, tictac, monkeyman, and enchant. Those are the types that end up as mislims frequently. Stylistically I think people are a lot less drawn to voting someone like wallflower - like, she pushed me first, she had the aggression, so in people's mind that discredits me a little and she presents herself as more "serious" than those players which means people are going to want to kill her a lot less, at least in the early game.

Why are you reading Wallflower as genuine town?

[catboi]

Yeah, I'd by a ticket to a Catboi vs Norwegian opening night.

mmm, I've already had plenty of games where I got into a shouting match with him.

[catboi]

well that was a fun series of posts to catch up on

I don't really see the case on Malcolm as scum, I think he looks pretty townie to me for now.

No real opinion on any of these meta reads, these do nothing for me, I know none of you. I'm sure you're all very cool and good at mafia. However I do think looking over Flavor Leaf's iso, a lot of his posting has been kind of reactive and/or meta discussion, which is pinging me a little bit.

I kind of see the point on monkeyman that he's acting

weird

but not necessarily scummy. Not sure he's my top suspicion at the moment.

pedit: originally I moved my vote to flavor leaf here but then he made a couple nice posts with detailed reasoning and now I'm conflicted again.

I'm not really sure I see the case on catboi as scum, to be honest. I suppose it's possible but nothing about their posts is really particularly sticking out to me.

Honestly, you'll have to forgive me for being a bit all-over-the-place at the moment, this is the first time I've played a multiball game

or

a hydra game, so it's a bit tricky to read people in ways I'm used to and it's kind of a lot to deal with, haha. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it with time though.

One game town with the same exact role, two games I played poorly as mafia, and one

fantastic

role madness game as a serial killer.

Just to be clear, you're claiming you've rolled vanilla townie in this game?

cassowary seems okay, except this is a very hedgy post? I get that it's still early game and reads aren't going to be that strong. But is this post actually saying anything?

[catboi]

I think it's much easier to get 12 votes on WallFlower than Meg/Toog, and it also doesn't seem like the easiest wagon, but it definitely is the correct one to push as scum here.

I don't think that's remotely true, generally it's super easy to take advantage of the LHF/lurky style players and push a wagon through on them as scum, someone like T3 for instance I just shoved to mis-eliminate every game.

I'd probably rate these players as the easiest ones to push here: Toogeloo, MegAzumarill, bnuuy, tictac, monkeyman, and enchant. Those are the types that end up as mislims frequently. Stylistically I think people are a lot less drawn to voting someone like wallflower - like, she pushed me first, she had the aggression, so in people's mind that discredits me a little and she presents herself as more "serious" than those players which means people are going to want to kill her a lot less, at least in the early game.

Why are you reading Wallflower as genuine town?

Easy to push, not easiest to misfade.

WallFlower gives you that perfect amount of easy to push because there's content that you can reasonably push onto them while making yourself look townier in the process.

You pushing any of those slots do not make you townier.

I think those reasons you just mentioned coincide with the actual reasons why ScumCatboi chose to push WallFlower. You wouldn't just pick the easiest on the surface level, when I say easiest, I guess I more mean what's going to make your game as scum easier in the long run. You could push one of those other slots, but it doesn't actually help you in the long run unlike WallFlower, especially in Multiball.

WallFlower can flip anything, and it wouldn't hurt you BECAUSE they were pushing you first. I find it hard to believe that you don't think you'd win in a 1v1 with WallFlower here if I werent here defending Wall.

I mean, you're not going to get anywhere explaining why I

could

be doing all of this as scum, because I think you can basically build a narrative that way for anything that happens in a game. You can talk gamestate hypotheticals but it doesn't actually make any of it true or explain why I can't be doing this as town. And that's the thing, I think wallflower is just extremely slimy and bad faith and has operated with a narrow singular focus on me from the earyl game momentum on me that she's trying to over-justify. Whether I think I can win is, uh, irrelevant, because I

actually scumread her

. But it's also the type of player I expect to get a lot of resistance on scumreading, that's not exactly what I call "winning" a 1v1

Like, I don't know with you. You do not think about the game in the terms I do. Which makes it hard to understand what you're getting at.

[catboi]

it's the teasing nature of WallFlower towards me. While it's only happened a couple posts, both times it felt very genuine, and in a way that was done specifically not to discredit, which helped me look at WallFlower here as just playing in the moment.

They were also early on you, which I think is more likely to come from town then have a scum or so piggyback on you. I called out WallFlower for piggybacking, then gave me the info that it was actually the other way around that TB followed WallFlower.

On top of that, I believe WallFlower is the only other person on the wagon who's given more of a reason for being on you, which is another reason I believe you chose to fight there. There was a reason to go against, and it's probably incorrect, I'll admit. There's not a large obvious case on you Day 1. My reasonings explain where I'm coming from, but it's hard to convince others with those reasons.

WallFlower and I also have the same read on you.

It's not impossible it's MvW, it's not impossible I'm wrong on WallFlower, I just have enough right now to warrant defending them, and pushing you.

Yeah, I'm going to just shrug and say "I don't get it" right now. Maybe this makes more sense to me in the morning.

[catboi]

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

At this point in time, I believe the people on the wagon were MonkeyMan, WallFlower, and Swords, and catboi made an early defense attempt. 12 votes needed, and nobody's gonna actually quick lim you here.

Monkey is someone who I actually think is really good at spotting scum who is manipulating the game, but for the life of them, they can't explain why and generally go the wrong way about it, and is fun to go into a 1v1 with when scum because their logic is usually wrong, but the read is right, at least part of it.

I remember 2 games I believe where I took advantage of that fact as scum with them.

It helps that I town read Monkey, Wallf, and Swords here, sure.

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

Meant to respond to this.

That doesn't have to be a bad thing if you're a werewolf.

Why did you specifically mention werewolves?

this easily could be Catboi coming from one of the groupscum teams noticing this more than another player would. weak reasoning, but if scum, true.

Only did a cursory skim of his scumgame in a mini normal, but I think butterchurn is town here.

awesome. This one's big for me.

Butterchurn, similar to Menalque, Catboi made a comment like this towards you early, and while you understand and liked what I was saying, you were hesitant to go on Catboi because they made you feel good about them. they helped you trust them.

They tried to do a similar thing with MonkeyMan early as well.

Spoiler:

God, can we please just skip the RVS?

prob town

My theory is that Catboi is scum going for mass pocketing attempts due to this being multiball, and the ultimate goal is to survive multiball.

I'm fucked basically because I'm pushing what I believe very strongly now to be a scum. I have more, I found something I think is pretty juicy.

Having a townread is not pocketing someone. And consciously and deliberately pocketing someone just isn't part of my scum game. I don't think it's a useful tactic because the game isn't won by getting a bunch of people to townread you, it's won by getting town eliminated.

[catboi]

Last night has kinda killed my desire to play for the moment so I’m probably gonna take a step away and just active lurk until the ganas come back

Sorry mena, hope you feel better

[catboi]

I have received the heebie jeebies.

I actually do think Catboi has a possibility of scum here.

I just think TB caught them off luck and

persistence of wanting them to be scum

, and convinced themselves that they were scum, if that makes sense

To demonstrate that no one should take his pushes seriously because he's not actually basing them off of reads

but wanting people to be scum

This feels like such a specific reason.

And Flavor Leaf has presented it, which apparently not knowing who Tracer Bullet is. and presented as being based on exactly the posts of Tracer Bullet in this game.

While Catboi has presented it, while knowing exactly who Tracer Bullet was, and presented as being based on exactly the way in which Pooky has engaged with them in the past, in past games, on different alts.

I need to talk to Dunn, but thought I would point it out in here while I wait for him to respond to my discord message.

Would you believe me if I told you I posted that before having read FL's post in thread?

I'll respond to the wallposts later when I'm off from work.

[catboi]

My immediate paranoia to spotting this is that they are scum together. That in the scum chat they were talking about the playerlist, and catobi said basically this idea as a worry that pooky would likely end up tunneled on him for this reason.

So, when Flavor Leaf saw TB present a scum reads list of 3 names, and saw both catboi and himself on it, he stepped in to discredit the TB push based on this idea.

Then Catboi came in, saw the wagon building on him, he made a post to discredit the TB push based on this idea.

This would make sense as an explanation on why Flavor Leaf went from saying that they were gonna keep on Lurking

Spoiler:

Y'all dont need me hyper posting in a multiball on Day 1 anyways.

To hyper posting the shit out of this game. Like, they went from making post 911 saying they were not going to hyperpost, to becoming the number 1 top poster in the thread over the course of 12 hours.

[This was actually the thing that I was looking into when I spotted the similarities btw. I was looking to see what caused such a massive change in his mindset and approach to this game.]

But, I need to look at FL's then push on catboi to see if that makes any sense... I wish Dunn was online :/

And, what, you think FL is bussing me on day 1, Luke? Come on.

[catboi]

I don't see a purpose of scum claiming to be VT and locking themselves in this early.

You can’t see me but I’m making a face where I’m frowning and my lips are pushed together and pulled back into my mouth

It’s meant to convey extreme scepticism

Newbie VT claims are real 99% of the time. And I believe SoD's claims of their experience level.

[catboi]

@Norwegian - Thoughts on Catboi setting up a pivot towards you?

On a skim I actually think norwee might be scum here. The towniest thing he had was his dust-up with malcolm, but other than that he's been floating and it reminds me a lot of his play in control where he was the SK. He'll call people town but it doesn't seem like he had reads he actually cares about and as town generally he finds something he wants to push and actually tries to solve.

That's not "setting up a pivot", that's forming a read. I had no real thoughts on Norwee this game, he was wagoning me, I went to ISO him and came back with my thoughts.

[catboi]

@Norwegian - Thoughts on Catboi setting up a pivot towards you?

On a skim I actually think norwee might be scum here. The towniest thing he had was his dust-up with malcolm, but other than that he's been floating and it reminds me a lot of his play in control where he was the SK. He'll call people town but it doesn't seem like he had reads he actually cares about and as town generally he finds something he wants to push and actually tries to solve.

That's not "setting up a pivot", that's forming a read. I had no real thoughts on Norwee this game, he was wagoning me, I went to ISO him and came back with my thoughts.

if you are town, yes.

If you are scum, no.

I mean, if I were scum, it would be a genuine read regardless, no?

Of course, the thing is, Norwee isn't a player who would be good to push as scum. He might blow up under pressure but that also gives him the chance to start obvtowning and then he stops being pushable and has more sway in the game. I try not push potentially volatile players as scum because it has a strong chance of backfiring. Was kind of like how I handled Andante in my game with Menalque.

[catboi]

I need to look at FL's then push on catboi to see if that makes any sense... I wish Dunn was online :/

And, what, you think FL is bussing me on day 1, Luke? Come on.

I mean, I had that exact thought about this paranoia, and then expressed that in the post that you quoted. Sorry you missed it.

See, I don't mind necessarily getting paranoid, part of the solving process is entertaining possible wild ideas, but you do kind of have to check that against reality, both in terms of what's happening in the game and what I'd actually do - if I'm scum who's been absent and catching up, I check with my teammates in the PT to see what's gone on in my absence.

[catboi]

Ironically my read before last night was that Flavor Leaf was more likely town because he wasn't trying to control the game. Not applicable now, obviously. I still don't think he's scum, though, this seems like a big ego push because he's decided he wants to be the hero here. Probably.

[catboi]

@FL
Tbh i feel more like Catboi was testing the waters there. As in trying to see if anyone would agree with them that i was being scummy by pointing out how i'm "floaty and not solving" etc.
But not really going anywhere with it themselves.

What, is every FoS "testing the waters"? I said you

might

be scum. Not that I strongly scumread you.

[catboi]

I have to remind myself that this game has 9 (!) scum in it, and therefore there is going to be a lot of nonsense on any given page

Where are you getting this from? First game had 7 scum in it with a similar number of players.

[catboi]

Had the fear of bnuuy being limbat last night but I just skimmed their ISO in their completed micro and it's night and day compared to here. Lot of content, almost all of it game-focused, hardly any of that here.

VOTE: bnuuy

[catboi]

I have to remind myself that this game has 9 (!) scum in it, and therefore there is going to be a lot of nonsense on any given page

Where are you getting this from? First game had 7 scum in it with a similar number of players.

'The faction sizes are 14:4:4:1'
In Post 1

Oh, shows me for being lazy and not reading the OP because I assumed it would mostly be like last time (where faction sizes weren't publicly disclosed).

[catboi]

But Catboi would be way more dangerous than Bnuuy.

Limming people day 1 because they're more dangerous as scum is a great way to throw games. As it is I've been pushed on more or less nonsense.

[catboi]

But Catboi would be way more dangerous than Bnuuy.

Limming people day 1 because they're more dangerous as scum is a great way to throw games. As it is I've been pushed on more or less nonsense.

You're minimizing Norwegian's reasons for voting you.

Norwee hasn't had reasons for voting me. Except for not liking my suggestion he could be scum, but he was pushing me well before that without explanation.


And to be honest, I didn't really want to bring this up in-game but I kind of think he has a grudge against me or something. Don't get it, I don't have anything against him.

[catboi]

Um, i have no grudge against you.

You were leaving me out of mention for the MU thing and it felt like you were taking passive-aggressive digs against me by praising everyone else in contrast to me. It was weird, wasn't going to mention it but now we're in a game and you've been wanting to elim me for almost the whole time because of ??? reasons and it made me wonder if there's something going on there.

[catboi]

Flashback to newbie where Titus!scum claimed i scumread and tunneled her only because of an grudge, when i just genuinely thought they were maf.

Don't get me wrong, I hate bringing this up because it feels OGI-ish to even say it and I've actually been bullied into unvoting scum because they claimed I was grudging them, so I hate the idea of talking about this stuff ingame, I just...don't get what's going on with you this game and had to bring it up.

[catboi]

And to be honest, I didn't really want to bring this up in-game but I kind of think he has a grudge against me or something. Don't get it, I don't have anything against him.

Just my two cents catboi, but I don’t think norwee carries grudges against anyone really

I think if he did then he 1000% would have against me when we first started playing together but he never has

lol there was a time pooky tilted him out of a game on an alt

[catboi]

Also, even if for some reason i did carry an grudge towards someone. I wouldn't let it impact my reads.

okay so like

you've been pushing me for most of the game

do you actually scumread me or..........?

[catboi]

is it the easiest wagon to get going?

The easiest in the sense it was most likely to get going presumably from that situation.

Others might be able to get votes, but who all besides me was going to protect WallFlower, and I even doubt that I was being considered to defend WallFlower here.


Coming after myself or Norwegian would have been far more difficult, and while definitely possible, required an unnecessary 1v1 that I don’t believe scum wanted right there.

Both meg or toogeloo would be significantly easier eliminations, I could easily have screamed about them being opportunistic in voting me, they're incredibly easy players to mislim.

I don't think you're scum, I'm leaning town on you. I don't have a read on Norwee.

I would not consider either of them easy elims
Why do you?

Uh, yes? Both are pretty frequent mis-eliminations in games. Why are you asking about this?

[catboi]

You were leaving me out of mention for the MU thing and it felt like you were taking passive-aggressive digs against me by praising everyone else in contrast to me.

I just haven't seen you play well.
Like i said earlier, i've never seen your scumplay and haven't been particurarly impressed by the towngames you've had with me in it. That doesn't mean i carry some deep personified hatred. I just know you much less than the other people i voted because i've had games with them where i was impressed. Like it's kinda ridiculous to suggest this to me in the first place, but just to clarify. I got nothing against you as an person.

All right, fair enough, I feel like I did fine in some of the games we were in but Control was pretty bad from me, I had an okay POE but didn't have the motivation or the will to push them. I'm just being overly sensitive, I guess.

[catboi]

You’re both pretty and intelligent

nya~

[catboi]

Also, even if for some reason i did carry an grudge towards someone. I wouldn't let it impact my reads.

okay so like

you've been pushing me for most of the game

do you actually scumread me or..........?

Obviously i'd think you were scum if i was voting you. I brought up not liking some various reads you made that felt like they were just intended to garner the audience response rather than being an read you yourself made and believed in.
Honestly, if this wasn't multiball i'd almost consider if you were TMI'ing me town here as scum by suggesting it is more likely i am town carrying some weird grudge than mafia pushing you for a fake reason.

(You can push grudges as mafia too but I want to drop this since it was a spurious accusation on my part, if that's all right. Sorry for going there.)

@FL
Tbh i feel more like Catboi was testing the waters there. As in trying to see if anyone would agree with them that i was being scummy by pointing out how i'm "floaty and not solving" etc.
But not really going anywhere with it themselves.

...This is the only post yours I can find about that, though?

On a skim I actually think norwee might be scum here. The towniest thing he had was his dust-up with malcolm, but other than that he's been floating and it reminds me a lot of his play in control where he was the SK. He'll call people town but it doesn't seem like he had reads he actually cares about and as town generally he finds something he wants to push and actually tries to solve.

I would prob join Flavour in a Catboi wagon btw.

Actually why not now.
VOTE: Catboi

And you were voting me

before

I said, that, soooo what other reads did you have a problem with?

[catboi]

And you were voting me before I said, that, soooo what other reads did you have a problem with?

Before that i just felt like there was a possibility you were scum so i wanted to join FL in the wagon so we could get some real juicy discussion up in here.

Okay. Am I wrong in saying that doesn't really feel like how I've seen you play as town in other games in the past?

[catboi]

Catboi and StD: I am entrusting custodianship of the bnuuy wagon to you both in my absence

Do not allow a certain F. L. Avourleaf to unrail it in my absence

I will try but I actually have to leave work pretty soon and I have a long drive and Enchant is in the game

[catboi]

The excuses for bnuuy are pretty wild, they dropped some AtE and the wagon started to dissipate, it's not like that's anything cornered newbscum hasn't done before.

[catboi]

And you were voting me before I said, that, soooo what other reads did you have a problem with?

Before that i just felt like there was a possibility you were scum so i wanted to join FL in the wagon so we could get some real juicy discussion up in here.

Okay. Am I wrong in saying that doesn't really feel like how I've seen you play as town in other games in the past?

If you think i can remember how i played as town in all of our previous games you're wrong.

That's...just answer the question? Is this like how you usually play as town? just voting someone because they "could" be scum to spark discussion?

[catboi]

Interested in Catboi's take on Nashville considering that's one of their other big defenders.

Titus felt off but Mala had more energy than I'd expect from her as scum, haven't seen any of their more recent posts (at work and tabbing in and out).

[catboi]

Yes i've done this in other large games as town before.

Probably it then given I haven't seen you in a large game outside of Control, was minis/newbies

[catboi]

Interested in Catboi's take on Nashville considering that's one of their other big defenders.

Titus felt off but Mala had more energy than I'd expect from her as scum, haven't seen any of their more recent posts (at work and tabbing in and out).

Mala's a former DC, why do you think she can't adapt to that? feel free to answer later, ofc.

I was retired when she won that, I don't know who in the hydra with Plotinus did the heavy lifting but I did not read the game to find out. In the mini normal I backup modded she basically hard lurked it out and seemed unmotivated. Subreddit upick she barely posted from the hydra and I think already has more posts this game than that one. Plus other reasons. Seems to have a bad case of scum burnout and I don't see that here.

[catboi]

I have to remind myself that this game has 9 (!) scum in it, and therefore there is going to be a lot of nonsense on any given page

Where are you getting this from? First game had 7 scum in it with a similar number of players.

'The faction sizes are 14:4:4:1'
In Post 1

Oh, shows me for being lazy and not reading the OP because I assumed it would mostly be like last time (where faction sizes weren't publicly disclosed).

Catboi, you can't get town points for missing this when it has already been discussed in the

We suspect that you are one of the 9 anti-town players in this game.

What makes you say there's 9 anti-town?

Titus

this would be lowkey the funniest slip I've ever seen lmao

I missed that at the time it was mentioned.

[catboi]

just voting someone because they "could" be scum to spark discussion?

this is totally fine to do on Day 1.

I've been trying to stay out of Norwee vs Catboi, but my main thing right now is I believe Catboi's taking advantage of Norwegian having a gut scum read on Catboi, and Norwegian can't explain it because it's a gut read.

Norwegian clearly brought up they'd be willing to vote Catboi earlier after I did, then did, which I felt was pretty natural and automatically showed that Norwegian had a least some suspicion on Catboi, and Catboi keeps minimizing Norwegian's responses and grabbing things like that, and pinpointing them.

Oh one more thing. I thought Catboi's slightly flustered response to be wagoned very early in the game was a bit suspicious. Because by that point it could easily be chalked up to RVS, but they seemed genuinely worried. Which felt a bit like scum that was overanalyzing and trying harder to defend themselves than town!them would do.

I get flustered in response to being pressured as town. Moreso than in response to being wagoned as scum, even. Anyone who's played with me can confirm this.

[catboi]

I have to remind myself that this game has 9 (!) scum in it, and therefore there is going to be a lot of nonsense on any given page

Where are you getting this from? First game had 7 scum in it with a similar number of players.

'The faction sizes are 14:4:4:1'
In Post 1

Oh, shows me for being lazy and not reading the OP because I assumed it would mostly be like last time (where faction sizes weren't publicly disclosed).

Catboi, you can't get town points for missing this when it has already been discussed in the

We suspect that you are one of the 9 anti-town players in this game.

What makes you say there's 9 anti-town?

Titus

this would be lowkey the funniest slip I've ever seen lmao

I missed that at the time it was mentioned.

But it's not like I'm not asking you to clear me off it. That would be dumb.

[catboi]

I have to remind myself that this game has 9 (!) scum in it, and therefore there is going to be a lot of nonsense on any given page

Where are you getting this from? First game had 7 scum in it with a similar number of players.

The original game was a 22 player game, split 3:3:1:15

This run of the game is a 23 player game, split 4:4:1:14

Which is a hell of a swing from Ceph to compensate for the stomp of last game. Both scum teams gained +1 scum and we lost -1 town.

each scumteam is only allowed to kill 2 nights out of each 3. If a team submits kills nights 1 and 2, they may not kill night 3, and so on.

Says they have gated nightkills though? That limits the power a bit.

Actually, mastina's beloved princess role makes a lot more sense with those rules - normally the beloved princess role sucks because it essentially grants mafia an extra free nightkill. But if it's here, that doesn't happen, even if they kill twice the night night they won't be able to. Design-wise that makes a lot more sense and means the role isn't completely implausible.

[catboi]

I don't find that bnuuy's latest posts are out of the range of what I would expect them to do if they were scum here. The wagon feels like it fell apart a little quickly. Maybe just because I was raised in the mafia of an earlier time, but I tend to have more inertia than is typical on this site these days. It takes me longer to turn towards scumreading or voting someone, and once I do, it takes me longer to turn away. These sorts of speed wagons rising up and falling away are not really something that's familiar to me. It feels closer to chat mafia at times. Which is not always a bad thing, but it may mean that I should be relying a bit more on gut reads. I agree with Menalque, though, that there's no point in wagoning for pressure if the pressure drops away at the slightest hint of a towny response. This makes me feel like some of the people riding the wave of the wagon didn't genuinely want it to go through, and were just waiting for an excuse to jump back off.

I think the wagon was super scummy. Makes bnuuy lock town and catboi or wallflower likely scum.

I think Menalque just lives in Catboi's pocket, and did what he could to get pressure off of catboi. I think Menalque jumped in by themselves, for the most part.

Menalque's see my towngame and my scumgame, and this isn't my scumgame.

[catboi]

I don't find that bnuuy's latest posts are out of the range of what I would expect them to do if they were scum here. The wagon feels like it fell apart a little quickly. Maybe just because I was raised in the mafia of an earlier time, but I tend to have more inertia than is typical on this site these days. It takes me longer to turn towards scumreading or voting someone, and once I do, it takes me longer to turn away. These sorts of speed wagons rising up and falling away are not really something that's familiar to me. It feels closer to chat mafia at times. Which is not always a bad thing, but it may mean that I should be relying a bit more on gut reads. I agree with Menalque, though, that there's no point in wagoning for pressure if the pressure drops away at the slightest hint of a towny response. This makes me feel like some of the people riding the wave of the wagon didn't genuinely want it to go through, and were just waiting for an excuse to jump back off.

I think the wagon was super scummy. Makes bnuuy lock town and catboi or wallflower likely scum.

I think Menalque just lives in Catboi's pocket, and did what he could to get pressure off of catboi. I think Menalque jumped in by themselves, for the most part.

Menalque's see my towngame and my scumgame, and this isn't my scumgame.

how many times has he caught scum you?

He hard guiltied me in one of the games I lost last year, I would've been primed to go the distance if he hadn't re-evaluated on me. I took a gamble that he wouldn't investigate me and lost. Was scum with me in my last game where I basically sobbed and AtE'd my way out of pressure all game.

[catboi]

To expand: I think catboi is scumhunting generally in 1208, using tactics that specifically don't work because this game is multiball. Catboi doesn't seem fully conscious of the fact that scum are trying to scumhunt in this game, and that's consistent with his lack of care to other aspects of the setup. I think this is a really weird mindset for catboi!scum to be in.

i think it's a mindset they're in because they're scum.

Catboi town would be more conscious of it.

Klick, if you're coming from a town perspective here, you're very aware of that tactic and whatnot, correct?

That's the difference here.

Catboi is not coming from that town pov here.

Not really? Last game the scum were mostly potatoes, didn't really try to scumhunt, made bad/shady pushes. Just because it's multiball doesn't mean you can't apply the same behavioral tells and wallflower's play to that point looked classically scummy

[catboi]

That is a towny post from cassowary (and no, not because it's long).

[catboi]

I'm starting to feel ill so I must question my reads from this morning.

Can someone briefly give me points where they feel I'm wrong besides catboi is too town to be town?

~Titus

You showed up late. You need to look at that bnuuy wagon.

I will but I feel that it's another counter to catboi. That makes me think town before reading.

However, I am open to being wrong. It's also getting to the point where there are so many counters that catboi may need to be eliminated as catboi couldn't live until elo.

~Titus

What

[catboi]

I'm leaving now and have a long drive, so I want to say:

Enchant is in this game. Absolutely do not put me or anyone else at E-1 or he will hammer. If someone pushes for votes to get a wagon through it's a scumclaim.

[catboi]

Good thing there's no rush to elim CB.

you know what? you're actually pretty funny.

[catboi]

I'm sure it'll calm down in later days, it's a big game and people are posting a lot. Also, the pages only have 25 posts on them so it's not

quite

as much as it seems like

Unless it doesn't.

Depends on who's dead by then.

[catboi]

Why am I in the rest

I originally thought you were town because I thought your entrance to the game was very unlike your recent mini normal and large normal scumgames, with an appearance of more actively trying to solve rather than just saying things. But it seems to me that your recent posting has slipped into going with the flow rather than the more active participation that you started off the game with. It's not really a scumread, more that I don't have the same reason to form a townread that I once did, particularly compared to the players who are townreads for me.

How has my scumread on you been me going with the flow

I didn't think your scumread of me was scummy at all actually, and still read you as town at that point. It's the play since then that has concerned me.

I guess to elaborate on that, having some people think I'm town seems to have elicited more of a *shrug* reaction despite your reportedly strong scumread on me, whereas you have seemed more intent previously on arguing points that I would imagine would be more trivial for town-you, such as MonkeyMan's comment regarding VTs or even the mastina claim.

you made a comment on a post of mine after having previously read me as town and not really said much else, which I don't think could be reasonably expected to convince people who otherwise townread me

Does that really seem outside his town range if you've read his other games?

[catboi]

What do you mean by town range? I have glanced through a couple of the recent town and scum games and I don’t think this game is exactly like any of them but I think it can be common for scum to make a strong showing early and later fade

I mean the thing about working to convince other people of his scum read. That's not...typically how he plays as either alignment.

[catboi]

I'm not the best at reading him but he seems active and solvy here where he had a much lower presence in the large normal by the looks of it. Pretty correct that he tends more toward being background noise as scum.

[catboi]

eh, actually skimming his posts I don't know. I'm too easily swayed by people defending me I think. I'll need more time to get a read there.

[catboi]

I'm not sure if anyone here knows who this is, but you remind me of Jon Bois. Which is a compliment, by the way.

I know the funny sports guy but haven't followed him since he started doing videos more than writing stuff. And also because I stopped wanting to visit SB Nation.

[catboi]

Wanted to do more but I'm really beat tonight sorry. I need time to actually focus on this game and I'll have it tomorrow.

[catboi]

The gears are turning in my head. I think I overreacted to Wallflower because I don't like being tunneled, especially not the way she went after me, but something as simple as the exchange about STD last night didn't ~feel~ like the route scum would take. Need a few hours to sit down and look at the playerlist and sort things through.

[catboi]

Scumreading butterchurn is unironically the towniest thing mastina has posted

[catboi]

(Mena's reaction was hella town; FL's reaction hardspewed him scum.)

(I probably would explain this more if it wasn't 5:15 and I didn't have literally half the game left to read still, but, can elaborate on this when more up to date.)

Can't wait to hear this lmao

[catboi]

Neither player is too interested in the game. Inactive, lazy takes and easy shades. Etc.

I have both posted more than you and certainly had more thought out takes than you. For the record, I was stuck in a high-intensity game offsite when this started that severely diminished my ability to focus on this game which is why my posting did lapse for period of time. I hadn't intended it to be that way, this game just kind of filled by surprise when I was signed for other one. I had assumed being MS and this having a long deadline I could take it easy for at fisrt. Regardless, that's done now and I can focus my full attention on the game.

[catboi]

whoa TB was pooky? I guess that doesn't surprise me given the typing style, but pooky felt mean this game Contrary to what other people have said, that actually feels a bit out of character given my experience with him

yea

more specifically, i felt TB vs leaf was an overdramatic and artificial argument about stuff that wasn't at all related to this game and not at all aimed at yeeting either of them.
in other words, it looked like svs to me, tho more strongly so from TB side of things.
VOTE: TB

lol this is a wild take

[catboi]

Scumreading butterchurn is unironically the towniest thing mastina has posted

Why do you say that? I don't know mastina very well, is this something related to her as a player?

Yeah. I don't think you're scum, but coming in with an outrageously anti-consensus take on a player I feel is pretty townie is more likely to come from town mastina, where as scum her reads are going to hew closer to consensus and generally seem to make more sense. The opinions she's coming in with feel confidently her own, don't agree with the read on you, but I believe she believes it.

[catboi]

Like to me, Mastina’s catch up looks like damage control.

It looks like a pure bog standard mastina catchup to me.

[catboi]

Like to me, Mastina’s catch up looks like damage control.

I kind of agree, but I wasn't sure if I was reacting to what seems like an ill-founded suspicion on me. I was also hesitant because it seems like a few players have found her to be townie so far. I'm especially curious about catboi's read.

mastna's reads are often not very logical as town.

[catboi]

damage control for what

Probably a Catboi partner

There’s definitely scum in the people that are defending/town reading Catboi. At least 1, even if Catboi ends up being town

I'm fairly certain there's much more than 3 people defending me, so it's not like they can all be my partners. I wouldn't doubt that there's some scum defending me, just by sheer amount of numbers and the fact that not every scum is going to want to push an elim, especially if they think I'm town, but this is a very vague accusation. It's a broad brush stroke that avoids getting into specifics about who might be scum to instead blanket discredit the people defending me.

[catboi]

By the same token though, I wasn't too keen on Catboi's equal willingness to join the wagon before then backing off again. Felt quite opportunistic and was a useful way to get the heat on them to die down a bit, while perhaps agreeing a bit more with players they'd clashed with a bit.

I am fairly certain I am still voting bnuuy, and haven't backed down on that, although I haven't been pushing it because I wasn't really fully present in the game yet. bnuuy was also someone I had wanted to look into because I had read their ISO before that and felt they were null-ish and wanted to look into them more, and a comparsion to how they played in another game as town felt like they were being pretty scummy here.

[catboi]

I super dislike flavor leaf maneuvering toward a possible elim of mastina for the beloved princess claim

[catboi]

So that's where I'm at, would prefer Catboi, but will go Mastina.

On second thought, i'm not sure i trust Mastina because last game with scum!Mastina went like this:

Mastina: I'm going to town and scumread people for their one-liner RVS posts and make a big reads list.
Mastina: Norwee is top town.
*Dips from game for a long time*
Mastina: Cephrir is scum for a vague reason. I'm going to harp on this vague scumread for the rest of the game.

This game:

Mastina: I'm going to town and scumread people for their one-liner RVS posts and make a big reads list.
Mastina: Norwee is top town.
*Dips from game for a long time*
Mastina: Butterchurn is scum for a vague reason. I'm going to harp on this vague scumread for the rest of the game.

I JUST DON'T TRUST IT ANYMORE.

This is super lazy analysis, though. Like, yes, she did that last game as scum but the things you're describing are generally playstyle indicators for her, she's frequently inactive and behind, especially if a game is as fast as this one, but it happens to her as town too, and comparatively this game is still only midway into day 1. The thing is as scum she doesn't really do any solving and tends to leak TMI which leads to playing in a bus-heavy way (which I sort of got at that game but didn't have a good way of explaining it that would convince people). This game, I think butterchurn is more or less obviously town, which is why mastina is way more likely to be town for coming in with a scumread on him.

[catboi]

Catboi did you think i referred to you or did you just want to say you've done more than me and had better takes than me for shits and giggles.

oh, I COMPLETELY misread what you were saying. I feel like an idiot.

[catboi]

I think I would happily elim either

Nashville or catboi

at this point, with probably a preference for Nashville? I can definitely see a case for mastina being scum, but am less sure on that.

Nashville is also embodying the characteristics of an scum hydra.

Neither player

is too interested in the game. Inactive, lazy takes and easy shades. Etc.

I realize now you were referring to

the hydra

, but I saw "neither player" and thought it was in response to wallflower mentioning my name along with Nashville. My bad, reading is tech, etc.

[catboi]

Yeah, I read that as him saying that Day 1 could actually be the most beneficial time to eliminate a Beloved Princess, because there are the maximum amount of town role actions available. So, I guess the risk is mitigated if she is a town Beloved Princess, and there's also a good chance of her just being scum. I'm not really sure how accurate that is, but I did have a thought along those lines as well.

there's also little to no other claims out there, so scum can't PR snipe well, so it's just mowing down people.

Scum can also choose not to kill because they only to kill 2 times in each 3 phases.

On this, do we reckon all scum teams kill tonight? I'd initially expect so since it's D1 and the game is still big enough that you can probably eliminate someone as scum and get away with it without people making obvious associatives. But then it obviously gets trickier further down the line once role player are perhaps revealed - if you don't have a kill, you risk them being able to live another day.

I would avoid engaging in any speculation about what scum will do with their night actions, I don't see it as being helpful.

[catboi]

Odds on Mastina's alignment:
Town(70%)
Scum(30%)

I just realized Mastina can't be a jester because the setup is pre-revealed. And while Mastina could be scum I am against eliminating her and find the idea of doing so scummy in general, but not as scummy as the bnuuy wagon.

30% is an insanely strong scum read on Day 1, btw.

That is almost never actually true. In a normal game it's >rand. In this game where the setup starts off at 39% scum, it's the opposite.

[catboi]

god I'm dumb I should read ahead a bit before replying immediately to everything

[catboi]

i think i'd still lim malcolm if given the opportunity

Reading through their ISO and I am really, really split on Cassowary.

On the one hand, I like their posts as a rule - not too confrontational as such but the logic is mostly solid.

They TR'd me at a time when it would have been easy and opportunistic for them to hop onto a wagon.

Their suspicion of Monkey felt perfectly reasonable at the time and similarly to me they have progressed on the slot as the game has gone on. They've pushed the slot a bit but not gotten too hyper-focused on it either.

And the fact they have TR'd Sword early on to a degree gives me an indication they're not just opportunistically pushing slots for easy eliminations.

But by the same token...given the multiball setup, it also feels like they're employing a fairly cautious and careful style that allows them to scumhunt in a way that helps them avoid any suspicion while perhaps managing to be subtle mafia. Their post count is fairly thin so far and in terms of pushes they've not done much beyond going for Monkey a bit before backing out and tentatively - but still not really - pushing Flavor a little bit.

like this doesn't say anything it just makes him look like that he's putting in work

Reading back I'd be surprised if Mastina/Nashville are aligned. Nashville saying they don't necessarily believe the claim but don't think it's scummy feels like an incredibly weird way for a teammate to try and defend another teammate...easier to just openly believe the claim.

If Mastina is town, perfectly feasible Nashville could be taking a punt on Mastina not being on the other team and viewing it as a good chance to try and build some town-cred going forward. In fact if Mastina is town I'd be very surprised if no scum attempt to do this. Obviously scum can't definitively know Mastina isn't rival scum but the odds drop significantly if Mastina isn't in one of their teams, statistically speaking.

like this doesn't really say much again a random toothless comment that makes it look like he's putting in work

Eh, no, I feel like the analysis is coming from a legitimate place even if it's fairly inconclusive, guy just bleeds town with what he's doing, looking all over the place, having takes on everything, reads are evolving and he's considering new angles. You might feel like the cassowary pos is busywork but it'd be just as easy for scum to NOT say anything there, guy feels like he's legitimately trying to solve the game. I think someone mentioned him being hedgy in other games? I might read some of his other games to check but I really don't think Malcolm is likely to be scum here.

[catboi]

FL continues to pick up Black hearts I see.
even sharing them with the MonkeyMan...

@The Keeper:

can I ask what you mean by this? I assume it equates to a scumread but the binding of isaac wiki tells me it's a powerup so it's a little confusing

[catboi]

Controllllll

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88500

Thanks. On a first glance, that does have a similar feel to it. Interesting then that in her first readlist, the 3 people she said she was most suspicious of were her 3 scum partners. I feel like that's important context.

I doubt she would replicate that exactly

, and in fact, I know she didn't, since I was one of her top 3 in this game. Here it was me, Flavor Leaf, and MonkeyMan.

I would not make that assumption.

However, since you're likely to look at those games and go "wow she's doing the exact same thing in all of them, she is lock scum here", here's an ISO from a town game in a large. It's been a long time since I looked at it since it was over a year ago, but quick skim of the start, all the same stuff some people are taking issue with this game.

(kinda hate to drag the game down in meta discussion but mastina is kind of a singular player and

so much

of what is being discussed about her isn't really telling of her alignment at all)

[catboi]

We think that Flavor Leaf is scum and has taken great efforts to establish narratives this game to control the flow of the game. Setting up strong ideas that it is this person vs that person, or that this other person is pocketing people, that scum are covering for Catboi and that mastina is a good elimination (she's not). They feel like they're talking past us and setting up their own version of events for this game. It doesn't feel like he is focused on finding and killing scum so much as trying to push narratives today and trying to get people to think about the game in certain ways.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Wow, this is what I was thinking, guess I shouldn't have read the scum PT with Well Done before I started my catchup and slipped that that's what we were talking about :3

(but seriously, good post.)

[catboi]

Yes and stop disagreeing with us about every single thing

Dumb read but I think this is an uber-towny post for Dunn

[catboi]

the zeal from FL just seems town tbh

i just don't know if he's right about things but i don't really see it coming from scum

Townreading Flavor Leaf for "zeal" is probably not a good idea. Granted, I didn't believe he'd play the way he's playing this game as scum but I'm wavering a bit now.

[catboi]

omg

that's not the question that's being asked

OK

For your question, the probability of at least 1 anti-town player being within a group of 4 players in this game is 86%

so the point is that Flavor leaf in all his "mafia genius" is calling out 4 people as catboi defenders stating that there's definitely 1 scum within them.

i'm trying to point out how ridiculous that call out is. 86% is a high chance that any 4 people with at least 1 being scum

so i don't want him to be like "look at how right i was" if he turns out to be right because he's making a speculation where the odds are on his side

Great post thank you for putting it in more concrete terms

[catboi]

@Well Done - You wanna act like this is anything different when I know for a fact Dunnstral knows I play this exact way as town. Catboi is doing the same exact thing with the "pushing whoever pushes them" but you chose to ignore it.

That is super not true, the only person pushing me I called scum was Wallflower, and I suspected norwee, but that's hardly

everyone

and you know that. Total misrepresentation.

[catboi]

Sword of Ducks
Save The Dragons
Tracer Bullet
MonkeyMan576
Bnuuy

Malcolm
WallFlower
Menalque
Norwegian
Cat Scratch Fever

Toogeloo
MegaZumarill
Enchant
Butterchurn
Tictac
Klick

The Keeper
Well Done
Nashville Dreams

Mastina
cassowary

catboi

Those scumreads look really fucking bad for the most part to me

[catboi]

Flavor Leaf calls anybody who pushes him scum.

There's also only been like 3 people, and Catboi has done the same thing with Tictac, Wallflower, and Norwegian with their post, as well as jumping on Bnuuy to get themselves free.

I suggested ticatac was scummy before he started pushing me though, not the same thing at all, and you're ignoring that I haven't called names like klick, megazumarill, toogeloo, or well done scum, all of whome were either voting me or expressing suspicion of me

[catboi]

well done what other scum reads do you have

i believe we can find something we agree on

We scumread Menalque
We are suspicious of Malcolm and catboi
We are less suspicious of Klick and tictac and haven't given them a strong look over but have acknowledged them

We were suspicious of Monkeyman and Sword of Ducks at one point and need to think over it again

Boys you gotta get some better scumreads because I'm town, Menalque is very likely town, and I think Malcolm is too

[catboi]

Okay Well Done is super obviously town here, for a very simple reason: Dunn doesn't have the balls to push Flavor Leaf day 1 as scum. He plays scum like a background character, mays easy votes, tries to avoid drawing attention to himself. Here he's doing the exact opposite of that and drawing negative attention from the most active player in the game. It's a million miles outside his scum range.

[catboi]

Interesting how I postulate that voting Catboi might be required for the game state causes us to be a counter to catboi. This definitely means I need to reset my catboi read when I catch up.

The only difference I see is who is doing the voting. If it was people familiar with me, I would lean towards scum saving catboi. Yet Butter and Wallflower are not familiar with me.

Titus respectfully

what the fuck are you talking about?

[catboi]

I gotta look into The Keeper/Cass a little more.

OH I can just tell you.

I'm a troll alt.

But when I want to make a point, I will.

I'll play my Starter Deck for you.
- Each time I am misgendered, your post will be quoted, counted and ignored completely. It does not exist to me.
- I vote twice per phase. Never more. I have two coins for the ferryman, 2 health, two eyes, and two votes.
- I will make as many Binding of Isaac references as possible - aiming for at least 1 per post.
- I low key solve. I don't go pressing buttons, I don't go hunting, I sit, I watch, and I smile.

I get stronger as the game goes on as town apparently, enough to be fear killed these days.

hey can you explain what you mean by white hearts/black hearts lol

[catboi]

I'm still 100% in support of day 1 eliming the Beloved Princess. Lowest risk for what could possibly also be scum, PRs are still hidden, scum would be firing blindly, possibly getting a few cross kills.

This is a bad post.

[catboi]

. . .
guess some shit went down huh
can someone summarize this for me?

I will try to let you know when I'm caught up and can actually explain it

[catboi]

Anyone else feeling a little Well Done after reading Well Done's not particually Well Done walls?

I need to find a bed and get my health back...

pedit - nope.

god fucking dammit

[catboi]

@Well Done - You wanna act like this is anything different when I know for a fact Dunnstral knows I play this exact way as town. Catboi is doing the same exact thing with the "pushing whoever pushes them" but you chose to ignore it.


Here's where I stand right now.

If you want to act like I haven't given my thoughts on nearly every single slot on the game bar a few, like The Keeper or your slot, it's because I was still needing something more concrete for the both of you.

I would say this is your first major point of action during this.

The fact that it came after my Mastina push and not my Catboi one makes me think there's merit in Mastina/Well Done being on one scum team, then Catboi/Cassowary on the other.

The rest is probably somewhere in my town reads because I don't expect to be correct on Day 1 with all my town reads, i fall in pockets early, and that's okay.

Sword of Ducks
Save The Dragons
Tracer Bullet
MonkeyMan576
Bnuuy

Malcolm
WallFlower
Menalque
Norwegian
Cat Scratch Fever

Toogeloo
MegaZumarill
Enchant
Butterchurn
Tictac
Klick

The Keeper
Well Done
Nashville Dreams

Mastina
cassowary

catboi

Or at least, the town side of it

See, you have to consider: having good/reasonable townreads in games dosn't mean a whole lot. This is especially true in multiball, where scum can just legitimately townread people for entirely true reasoning. (in regular games too though I've been fooled by people having reasonable townreads but still being mafia). It's because anyone can fake townreads and have them make sense, townreading pyers other players townread is safe, but the hardest thing for scum to do is push legitimate scumreads.

And yes, I know the immediate rebuttal is "but this is multiball and scum can legitimately scumhunt in it, but even so I think conventional reasoning

mostly

works and you can find scum by looking for people who aren't really scumhunting or are pushing arguments based on faulty reasoning because they're just trying to get someone eliminated and don't care what their alignment is.

[catboi]

Catboi, who you wanna vote?

Getting to that in a moment, mena,I feel like I'm juuust getting confident enough to put together a reads list but I wanna get through this well done/flavor leaf dust-up

[catboi]

It definitely feels like this has been a game where scum have been been basically having the run of things while the super obviously town players are all in disarray

[catboi]

Well Done is a goddamn innocent child for 2111, that is not a post Luke-scum makes

[catboi]

UNVOTE:
Alright time to lock down and get into this nonsense

People I don't want to eliminate today

butterchurn
Nashville Dreams
Save The Dragons
Wallflower
Well Done
Menalque

People I think are fairly likely to flip scum

Toogeloo
catboi
MalcolmTucker
bnuuy

That's my preliminary assessment from kinda sorta skimming for the past two days. I want better reads than this.

I have to remind myself that this game has 9 (!) scum in it, and therefore there is going to be a lot of nonsense on any given page

Sword of Ducks

Save The Dragons

Tracer Bullet
MonkeyMan576

Bnuuy

Malcolm

WallFlower

Menalque

Norwegian
Cat Scratch Fever

Toogeloo

MegaZumarill
Enchant

Butterchurn

Tictac
Klick

The Keeper

Well Done

Nashville Dreams

Mastina
cassowary

catboi

I am vibing with this reads list

I colored Klick's last reads list onto this list that they agree with and don't understand why they agree with it. Some explanation would be nice.

That is also way more attention to detail than I can afford t have right now, good catch

[catboi]

I don't have a particularly strong read on bnuuy. Actually, for a 9-scum game I'm disappointed that I can't seem to obtain a decent scumread on anyone in particular. I'm struggling to decide how scum would play the position is the problem, I think.

Rule out the people who are super obviously town, group together the rest, and you've got decent odds of hitting scum regardless. Respectable response to well done though

[catboi]

I think that Flavor Leaf's reaction to getting scumread by Well Done fucking sucks. The progression from scum reading them -> calling them wrong town -> getting tilted at them and calling them liock scum is super sketchy. It doesn't look like a genuine evaluation but scum shifting through different angles trying to get the heat off them. It's a very Prism-esque progression, it just feels very fake. The attacks read more like playing offense to play defense because he's really bothered by the scumread on him. I would think that if he had truly gotten frustrated with Well Done and thought they were town just dumbly tunneled on him, he'd just back off and stop engaging with them, but instead he keeps going and 180s. The only reason I can see for this happening is because he's

really

bothered by their scumread on him and wants to discredit it. There's not even really a possibility he gets yeeted Day 1, he just wants to stamp out all opposition to him.

[catboi]

Well Done is a goddamn innocent child for 2111, that is not a post Luke-scum makes

That was a dunn post

Whoops again

oh, lmfao, I got thrown off by Dunn referring to himself in the third person

[catboi]

I think that Flavor Leaf's reaction to getting scumread by Well Done fucking sucks. The progression from scum reading them -> calling them wrong town -> getting tilted at them and calling them liock scum is super sketchy. It doesn't look like a genuine evaluation but scum shifting through different angles trying to get the heat off them. It's a very Prism-esque progression, it just feels very fake. The attacks read more like playing offense to play defense because he's really bothered by the scumread on him. I would think that if he had truly gotten frustrated with Well Done and thought they were town just dumbly tunneled on him, he'd just back off and stop engaging with them, but instead he keeps going and 180s. The only reason I can see for this happening is because he's

really

bothered by their scumread on him and wants to discredit it. There's not even really a possibility he gets yeeted Day 1, he just wants to stamp out all opposition to him.

meh, just got to the part where he backs down and declares it 50/50, but I

still

do not find it to be terribly believable

[catboi]

let's just try our luck with the beloved princess and see what crazy stuff happens over night.

VOTE: Mastina

Also, again, ridiculously sketchy, coming right after Wallflower expressed doubt on mastina in 2180 and Toogeloo had expressed a willingness to vote momentum. It looks like potentially he's hoping to seize on the momentum to eliminate a beloved princess and get an advantage off that

[catboi]

The gears are turning in my head. I think I overreacted to Wallflower because I don't like being tunneled, especially not the way she went after me, but something as simple as the exchange about STD last night didn't ~feel~ like the route scum would take. Need a few hours to sit down and look at the playerlist and sort things through.

Is any suspicion/vote on you being “tunneled”? I’m not sure that I LOVE this as an excuse for scumreading me

You've been on my nuts since page 4, you won't shut up about me, like 80% of your posts are about me, you barely even have real reads on anyone, you're either tunneled or hopelessly obsessed with me, that's pretty clear

[catboi]

I don't know what to say, lmao, if you're town you are

hardcore

tunneled right now, that's a fact - I don't even know why you'd have a problem with me using that word, since it's not like being tunneled is a scum tell and you can

correctly

tunnel someone, I know you're wrong but why aren't you okay with admitting you're tunneled? Feels a very odd thing to bristle at.

Also, I was literally saying I thought you might be

town

in that post, are you even reading what I say?

[catboi]

Flavor, did you see the 1705 about Nashville Dreams?

Yeah, I saw it.

Nashville could be scum, they're in my Pink tier, but part of me thinks they could just be town not in the game fully.

I likely wont be one of the main ones pushing Nashville myself, but I do town read most of the people pushing them.

Idk. I feel like I'd be able to read them with a much higher certainty a little bit later in the game, and it's holding me back from wanting to go there.

I get the case, I just don't know if it makes them scum, is where I'm at.

Does anyone get major red flags from this post? The way he's talking about Nashville he has them in his scumreads but he keeps making excuses to not join the wagon on them.

[catboi]

it significantly reminds me of how I used to talk about my partners in games, like I'd fos them but mke excuses to vote elsewhere and then join the wagon on them late if it felt inevitable

[catboi]

Okay, I'm caught up. Let's do this thing:

Town reads:

Sword of Ducks (de facto Innocent Child)
Menalque
Well Done
MalcolmTucker
butterchurn
Save The Dragons
mastina
MonkeyMan576 (little less confident on this one than the others but only because I haven't been paying as much attention to him lately)

Town leans:

Cat Scratch Fever
cassowary
Tracer Bullet (feels grotty putting him here but I do think the play was pooky-town)
Klick (a bit concerned as from what I've seen as scum he tends to fade off as the game goeson, but not enough that I'd be fine with seeing him eliminaed today)

Null:

Toogeloo
Wallflower
The Keeper

Scum reads:

Nashville Dreams (Titus & Malakittens)
MegAzumarill
bnuuy
tictac
Enchant
Flavor Leaf
NorwegianboyEE


I had liked Mala early but it feels like she's fallen off the face of the planet and Titus's progression on me where she was defending me and then made a comment about how I have to be eliminated because of counterwagons was

super

sketchy and made no sense, like she was angling for a way to be able to join the bandwagon on me

I had wanted to believe the self-meta about following other people and sheeping them but after giving him a read over, I really do think this could be a scum-norwee game. He doesn't feel like he has any reads he cares about and it's vastly different from the town game of his in a large that I looked it.

meg/bnuuy/tictac/enchant just feel like cheat code scum where they're doing nothing, and aside from bnuuy they haven't gotten heat for it, just kind of classically low-effort. You could say toogeloo here but I feel like they'd play this way as eeither alignment, the beloved princess stuff gives me the heebie jeebies though.

[catboi]

The no-efforters are something like the easy freebies but they're not at the risk of endgaming, I might do the legwork to actually case norwee later because he's one I could easily see slipping through the cracks this game

[catboi]

Also,

GOD DAMN

that felt good. Love being able to not have an extra cognitive load completely dragging me down.