Mini 2332: A Mid-scummer Nights Dream | Meowhalla (Spoiler-Free)

[Prism]

I'll circle around and figure out what's happened at some point but holy guacamole I've absolutely lost my mind

[Prism]

Selected samples of my dead thread posting

Spoiler:

I don't mind getting egg on my face. The Kyoko vote is an absolute disgrace.

Second dumbest shit I've seen after the Hu Tao vote.

Probably should put Dan back on the table unfortunately, but not eager to do so.

It's going to be one of those games I guess. Just vote the single strongest townread every day.

Not leashing the third invention is a mechanical crime against the game. I feel like I watched the town run over my pet dog Day 1, then circled around for another pass Day 2.

Alright I'll stop complaining now but J E S U S

I will sort through this later but I'm getting trolled so hard it's unreal.

Between the two I vote Ravens. There is

SURELY

just no world in which Dunnstral doesn't understand CCing dreamer is on the table and the natural response to doing so.

On the other hand Alisae has hard trolled and borderline played against win condition the entire game.

Ydrasse needs to claim. Enchant needs to fullclaim. We have room for one more PR.

Ravens is claiming they intentionally tried to pass over the watcher shot, only to have the dream hijacked. This is such an absurd thing to lie about, a monumentally stupid mechanical decision, and in my opinion implausible given we've seen two scum dream-selection mechanics.

My mind is gone. It is lost and I am off to another dimension.

I think Ravens claiming the reporter gift to Catgirl first is +town actually because it risks a double cc. Catgirl should point out if they softed the reporter gift to Silver anywhere.

This is my nightmare CC. Truly a horror show.

So do you believe this one random inconsistency to be true, when the idea of a hijack is odd in and of itself

when a dead mafia has the power to become the dreamer?

(Truthfully I don't know how that part works so they could have some sort of dream manipulation but it'd certainly be one shot and I always figured it wouldn't come into play until after we died)

I don't believe the bolded part here is public knowledge the town has access to. I'm pretty sure Catgirl Chipotle is confusing abilities they have posted in their mafia pt as public knowledge.

I am convinced someone kidnapped Dunnstral and replaced him with a bad AI imitation back in 2022.

I literally don't understand. I can't begin to understand. Ravens is a hydra of two mechanically adept players. They categorically and systematically fail to understand their own power and its implications for three gamedays. They claim to have intentionally picked against a watcher shot. They also claim there is a second hijacking power/third scum dream selection mechanic.

I don't understand how that can possibly be town, but I don't understand how they can possibly post these things as scum without realizing they are instantly sunk.

Alisae points to a soft that isn't a soft and has been actively playing against wincon the entire game. Ravens also did claim their target first, which risks a double cc if the dreamer isn't Catgirls. Granted there are only three townies, but still.

I can't get my head around this.

Don't even get me started on the second reporter shot.

Reluctantly I think Catgirl is town but I don't like either of these worlds holy guacamole

[Prism]

I see. This is what they mean by "2013 balance standards"

Probably Ravens but shrug.

[Prism]

Ravens being town requires literally 4 dream hijack mechanics. There's just no way, and I don't understand how they thought it was a good idea to fakeclaim it.

[Prism]

Alisae piledriving the game into the ground Days 1 & 2 only to have a total mental breakdown Day 3 is relatable content.

[Prism]

I was skeptical of the Cat soft at first but then I realized it was Maria and it clicked

[Prism]

I had extra info in that I actually knew I got the invention but that was physically painful to watch, I thought Enchant gift was enough+town could have forced a target for the last invention.

[Prism]

Alisae piledriving the game into the ground Days 1 & 2 only to have a total mental breakdown Day 3 is relatable content.

1, 3, and 4

[Prism]

Also Dan I hope scum killed me for the dreamer suspect reason, I legitimately messed up but realized I could spin it the other way.

[Prism]

I have no idea on the third. Von Payne was mostly my default, but I was surprised by the Ravens vote yesterday. I didn't have any of the context for it which made it hard to read into.

I still think Enchant is town. Von Payne+another PR is a fair amount of town power but not totally out there. My inclination is two scum PRs on top of Aureal's role is too much, so Von Payne town and probably Ydrasse?

By default has to be Sunflower, which makes some sense to me given I hated their night posting about me before the NK and felt slightly bad about most of their prior progression.

[Prism]

Oh Gimli's posting here means that slot is town. Duh.

[Prism]

Yeah so probably Sunflower+Ravens.

[Prism]

I've felt meh about Ydrasse and don't know why town let her off without a fullclaim but the mech power+one VT knowledge says probably town

[Prism]

I still think it's very winnable. The one VT reveal doesn't do that much: the amount of scum power revealed by the hijack made two PRs super plausible. It made me flip my stance on Von Payne instantly. Ydrasse could hypothetically be a good that will fakeclaim, but we'll see what her claim is. If she looks town, then Enchant v. Sunflower is a ridiculously easy choice.

[Prism]

I'm assuming a town player would have claimed by now if they were responsible for the claimed Ravens hijack. I was already deeply skeptical of three, but four scum-driven hijacks would be actual insanity and morph takes the blame if they thought that was fine.

[Prism]

I mean I'm with you there in isolation, but Alisae just turned off e's brain for three gamedays. In contrast I don't understand how a rational human being thinks Ravens can mechanically be town. That includes morph if Ravens is somehow mechanically town.

[Prism]

Claiming to intentionally pass over a watcher shot is so wild. A fourth hijack is wilder.

Actually

passing over a watcher shot for an unknown would be wildest.

[Prism]

Even though I would have flipped Von Payne yesterday, the neighborhood selection interrogation was the wrong track. I thought the backup Catgirl selection was very natural and I made it very clear I should not be picked.

[Prism]

The specific moonrise result today points Dunnstral-scum but I'm still confused. The tower hijack claim is nonsensical, and the double vote isn't worth getting instavoted out today. Maybe getting another dream power tomorrow is the idea but shrug.

[Prism]

Oh Von is confirmed town. Not too surprising there.

[Prism]

I haven't been watching but I would be shocked if anyone managed to vote Catgirl here.

This includes if they're town because 4x scum dream selection (required for Ravens town) is solidly a morph problem.

[Prism]

This includes if they're scum*

[Prism]

Enchant slot should still be near-cleared off of Aureal so uhhhh. It's a mafia game.

[Prism]

I'm fine with the setup if there's 3 scum dream selection mechanics, no complaints, but if there's 4 we burn down fferyllt's house

[Prism]

And throw a rock through borkjerfkin's window

Fuck 'em

[Prism]

None of the town cares that Ravens is claiming a fourth scum dream selection mechanic. Amazing.

[Prism]

If they are right I cannot wait to shoot paintballs at borkjerfkin's car while he's on his way to work.

[Prism]

Speed away on my Razor scooter and hit 'em with the kickflip.

[Prism]

His fate is in your hands. Did you put a fourth scum dream selection mechanic into the game?

[Prism]

Three gamedays without guilties, three strongest Prism townreads voted out. It was indeed one of those games.

[Prism]

I guess Enchant was stronger than Catgirl actually, so scratch that.

I don't even want to look who voted Cat.

[Prism]

I've felt meh about Ydrasse and don't know why town let her off without a fullclaim but the mech power+one VT knowledge says probably town

If this wins the game after I complained about it, hilarious.

[Prism]

I quit

1. The Kirigiri flip was nonsensical, solidly your fault, and entirely preventable.
2. This game day should have been virtually impossible to lose on if you presented your points coherently.

I get that losing in mafia sucks but you have agency here. I didn't keep track of the votes on Hu Tao Day 1, I didn't go hard enough on Ravens/Sunflower despite having more than enough on the latter and my Von Payne/Kirigiri reads sucked.

[Prism]

Yeah I read the game day and what a time. We all deserve to lose.

[Prism]

YDRASSE TAKE MY ENERGY

[Prism]

Watching town consistently vote out my strongest townreads only to somehow wind up in mechanical autowin anyway

[Prism]

Assuming scum stays the course, which is a big assumption, I can't wait to see how we manage to mess this up.

[Prism]

Two of these votes, and arguably all three, were blatantly mechanically wrong decisions.

[Prism]

2. This game day should have been virtually impossible to lose on if you presented your points coherently.

Disagree

Suit yourself. My friends hardstuck in Bronze think the same way.

[Prism]

Morph, what did the gossamer shroud do?

[Prism]

You already spoiled Von Payne town but you won't spoil an unused item smh

[Prism]

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ YDRASSE TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

[Prism]

There's a player who hasn't asked for fast night. Yet, anyway.

Not a lot of games are won or lost on a single fast night holdout. It's fun!

[Prism]

Note that Kyoko's gift to me was a commute and there was the bulletproof shot, so plenty of opportunities to use the strongman.

[Prism]

I misread your description of your power, oops. What I get for phoneposting and not rereading your role PM.

[Prism]

We will find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Have faith.

[Prism]

Von Payne should have never voted Catgirls because 4x scum dream selection mechanic would be absurd.

Similarly, no one should be voting Von Payne given that would require 3 strong scum PRs in a fairly low-mid power game. (I wouldn't consider it neighborizer strong but morph absolutely would)

Gimli/Enchant is town more by dayplay, e.g. Aureal's wall, Raven's reaction to the reporter shot, but I would have died on this hill Day 2.

And also, you know, Sunflower blitzed, but that's life.

[Prism]

Who voted for the Hail Mary pass? What is wrong with you? Why are you trying so hard to throw?

[Prism]

Where are your parents?

[Prism]

If Von Payne didn't vote during moonrise and it loses the game it will be tragically hilarious. I feel for the town players that actually care about winning.

[Prism]

(I asked privately and it looks like we've got a nonvoter on our hands, resulting in scum tiebreaks getting handed out. Enchant voted, Ydrasse is unknown. Perhaps the Ydrasse giveth and the Ydrasse taketh away.)

[Prism]

I explicitly asked not to be neighborized since I was traveling and unavailable to post the entire weekend that coincided with night phase. It was correct to neighborize Catgirl.

I think we all had pretty mediocre reads this game, but the major issue is adjusting to mechanical reveals. There's a reason I instantly went 2/2 after the dreamer claims and before I saw the Gimli/VP town confirmations, and it wasn't because of vibes/dayplay.

I had Kyoko, Catgirl, and Von Payne all high up my scumlist and immediately discarded my reads and threw them way down to the bottom as more setup knowledge was revealed.

[Prism]

There is possibly some vote discrepancy again; but I wouldn't worry about them voting wrongly, I think town's got this unless trigonometry somehow turns out to be a way to raise the vote threshold needed so they can't actually vote out Sunflower tomorrow. And that seems really unlikely.

I checked with the mods and it's a correct VC, though we might get interesting claims around it. Check the scum PT for the tie selection mechanic, which supposedly your teammates missed.

My fear is a vig shot (hail mary sounds like it) or vote manipulation.

[Prism]

Day 1 I had a one-off mech read on Hu Tao that derived from the unique VT PM, which sure, whatever, easily discarded. But on Day 3, regardless of reads, Kyoko needed to be left alive to pass out invention #3 to a target of town's desire, and on Day 4 Von Payne should have spent 5 seconds to evaluate whether a fourth (!!!!) scum dream hijack mechanic made any sense.

[Prism]

I guess I'm less worried about that because it was blatantly never a jailkeep and VP was crazy for even thinking that.

[Prism]

As for the qualitative side of things, we were all horribly wrong. My reads were probably the best of the town, broken clock etc., and I still wanted Von Payne and Catgirl flipped before the two remaining scum. I get no points for being right from the dead PT when they'd play the mechanics differently with me around.

It wasn't pretty across the board, and we really did earn the loss.

[Prism]

lmao @ the Trig dream, that one is amazing

[Prism]

MOOOOOOOOOOORPH.................

[Prism]

Dunnstral I have no qualms with your gameplay EXCEPT the extra hijack claim. Obviously you are validated by town letting you get away with open mechanical murder and I'm wrong to doubt you.

But literally why? Why did you claim that?

[Prism]

(Also iirc there was a bizarre hydra scum slip, I didn't bother to doublecheck but GIF made a statement about the early claim motivation, countering a cc, that contradicted a Dunnstral line about not thinking there could be a cc)

[Prism]

I guess the kill here is Enchant? Presumably scum don't know how many shots Ydrasse has.

[Prism]

Ravens being a goon weirdly puts Von Payne on the table mechanically. It's unclear whether the hijack power is factional or Sunflower's, and scum does have room for a neighborizer+factional. Town would be a bit underpowered in this case but it's possible.

On the other hand Sunflower still blitzed, so...

[Prism]

That is...definitely not the approach I would have taken to solve the watcher shot issue but you got your cc voted out. Clearly you are a craftier man than I.

[Prism]

What would you have done?

I think claiming notification of a redirect rather than an outright dream selection hijack would be better. I was already very skeptical of claiming to intentionally pass over a watcher-shot dream. I was doubtful of three dream selection mechanics, and having seen three I absolutely was never buying a fourth.

I'm not exactly sure how I would have handled claiming overall. First I would need to ask morph if town gets notified of a dreamer's death, and if not considered not CCing at all or CCing by claiming a nightkilled player was the dreamer depending on how the first dreamer claim happens. Second, if town does get notified (as we did wind up getting with Cat's flip), I would probably still not cc and bet on getting a Von Payne or Ydrasse flip through. The EV doesn't significantly change from leaving the CCing. This becomes a bit trickier with knowledge that Catgirl is the dreamer and is less likely to vote Von Payne.

[Prism]

The EV doesn't significantly change from leaving the dreamer uncc'd.

EBWOP

[Prism]

I think claiming notification of a redirect rather than an outright dream selection hijack would be better. I was already very skeptical of claiming to intentionally pass over a watcher-shot dream. I was doubtful of three dream selection mechanics, and having seen three I absolutely was never buying a fourth.

My second choice here would have been to straight up guess. Hunt for a soft and nightkill the target or the dreamer, and roll the dice otherwise. I wouldn't personally have my partner claim to receive the shot because that might turn into a straight 50/50 but it's an option.

[Prism]

I wouldn't personally have my partner claim to receive the [watcher] shot because that might turn into a straight 50/50 but it's an option.

There's actually an interesting idea here. You sell the legitimacy by reversing the claim order. One scum claims a watcher guilty on a random, or the dreamer themselves. They get cc'd and only then does the other scum claim dreamer and confirm the first, say with a back and forth of "The dreamer claim doesn't make sense because I got the watcher shot" followed by "That's because I was the one who gave it to you".

Ideally the second scum claims inbetween the first and second town cc, rather than after both.

[Prism]

Still not the best option here but I'll tuck this into the file for later use elsewhere.

[Prism]

i think it is just von payne rn i don't think it's ever really enchant for later days behavior and i dont think its sunflower because of their trajectory on ravens over the game feeling pretty natural to me. i am a little worried this was always "The Plan" to some extent in that the endgame was to distance and claim as it went but meh

SHE GIVETH AND SHE TAKETH

[Prism]

VON PAYNE STILL DOESN'T KNOW EITHER AND IS JUST OMGUSING

I'M GONNA LOSE IT

[Prism]

i’m gonna fumble this game after saving it

yes you are. that is the queen's privilege, your royal prerogative

[Prism]

3175 is a good find by Ydrasse even though she is still unnecessarily playing the game on hard mode and ignoring a blitz.

(it means if you are town, all 3 your topreads were mafia)

Do you think it's more likely I put my scum buddies at the top of my list or I'm just a townie with bad reads?

My opinion not relevant. I will die.

Good luck with Ydrasse.

I don't see how this makes your opinion irrelevant! Maybe you can talk some sense into ydra

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=mirror

[Prism]

Von Payne is giving us a lot of justification to kill Enchant without Ydrasse freaking out

Black's continued insistence on playing without either thought or humility is unfortunately gamelosing.

[Prism]

Oh, my little lie about who I targeted has actually come into play the way I was hoping, nice.

This is all an awful lot of effort for Ydrasse to go to if she's just trying to mess with scum's perception of who she'll vote.

For another data point, I nterpreted it as slightly +scum for Sunflower before my death. The target didn't align with your prior statements and I thought distance was the most plausible interpretation.

[Prism]

There was a reason I thought Sunflower was an unlikely scum target there but I can't remember why. I'm getting old.

[Prism]

Black has kind of kicked into gear now.

[Prism]

Nope. Her passive that triggered to not die by retreating to her tower.... triggers on the FIRST INSTANCE of ANY scum player touching her with ANY ability.

She was day-neighbored by vonpayne one cycle before the NK.... and didn't go to her tower till after the night phase, sooooo that's a functional inno.

Lol. Lol lol lol lol lol.

[Prism]

Between the JOAT uPick disaster and this game's creative efforts to ignore mechanical advantages, I felt creatively inspired to commentate on the 2024 town meta. It brought out a musical side of me.

https://voca.ro/1hYmXpgAUyhx

[Prism]

If I weren't lazy I'd put the instrumental parts in, do multiple takes, try to hit the high notes, and maybe create a small youtube video populated by Not_Mafia gifs.

But I am lazy so a single take before my class was all you get, thankfully.

[Prism]

Now we learn how many dimensions of chess Ydra has been playing.

There literally wasn't a reason to hold it. She was never voting Enchant so it didn't matter who the nightkill was.

[Prism]

von payne both of you if you’re town im genuinely very sorry but i don’t think i can find you this game

a skill issue on my end

ik not voting immediately

reading role pm undefeated in 2024

ROYAL PREROGATIVE

[Prism]

Mmm yeah that's kinda ambiguous. Mentioning harm likely makes one focus on how it avoids actions that would've been harmful. A night hood doesn't exactly sound harmful.

I don't think it's ambiguous. "visit" is clearly more than a nightkill IMO

[Prism]

It's very close to how I'd write the same power.

[Prism]

I've had several walls I've wanted to write responses to since Day 1, more for completeness than necessity, but at this rate it probably won't happen.

[Prism]

I remember when I thought I was busy in high school in college. Oh, those sweet halcyon days of youth.

[Prism]

and in college*

[Prism]

I've got the confbias and I'm biased from having just finished a game with Black, but I struggle to see how Von Payne is not incredibly obviously towny in this endgame discussion
Black is posting like textbook town endgame and Sunflower is posting like textbook scum endgame

I think Ydrasse kind of realises this with her post asking to see examples of Black in endgame? It's just whether she values that evidence over whatever she thinks makes Von Payne scummy otherwise

I doubt Ydrasse believes in either of these stereotypes as actually indicative.

[Prism]

Why's that

This is speculative. I think she resists strong binary classifications of behavior that are grounded more in general folk psychology than in player-specific meta. The best folk psychology generalizations are still unacceptably overbroad while most of them are outright wrong.

The shorter version: she doesn't believe, or believes only weakly, in sweeping categories of objectively scummy and townie behavior.

We are vastly different players, but I suspect this is an area where we share common ground.

[Prism]

That isn't to say that I reject all forms of guessing at someone's mental state. If I think someone is arguing in bad faith or doesn't believe what they're typing, I'm going to find it scummy even if I've never seen them before.

But for example, I'm not going to see someone posting defensively as very probative of alignment in and of itself. I'd put the traditional 1v1/three way arguments like "more focused on why they're town than me being scum" and a whole range of tonal behaviors in that same bucket.

[Prism]

Very tangential and no one asked, but a good model of how I tend to read players is my Dragon read Day 1. I had a mental model for what I expected from Dragon as town, and I wanted to test the initial hypothesis. I knew there was a large margin for error, but I grew a bit more confident that it was workable after the first round.

I was annoyed with everyone jumping to defend Dragon-town not because I thought they were wrong, but because it actually gave Dragon more confidence and comfort in his posting at a time when I wanted him uncomfortable and doubting his own tone. I got an initial reaction that suggested a stronger shove would either tip the scale, either turning his scumposting completely wooden or getting a raw self-righteousness that was town-indicative. The town set him back on his feet before I got that. I put Dragon as a townlean by the very end of the day, but I wanted to rough him up a bit more in order to get something decisive.

But I wouldn't really follow that approach to random players, and most of my scumreads take a similar approach.

[Prism]

We will find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Have faith.

Another day of mafiascum.net