Newbie 2057: Mars! - End!

[skitter30]

Think of it this way skitter, creative didn’t necessarily have to claim tracker just then no one gave intent. Who stood to gain the most from creative fake claiming? Whemestar did creative even blamed wheme for making him Rr (feels very partnery) because he was saying this is scum over and over for seemingly weak reasons off of a super weak PR read. IMO kaz has less to gain from the Rr because he admitted he would be willing to vote either sam or creative. Also kaz left his vote parked on creative leaving him at two votes and making him a viable vote for a lot of d2 might be more risky to a partner than wheme putting creative at e-1 for 24 hours then creative claiming before anyone declared intent. Also if wheme was so certain that creative was PR or scum why would he not ask for a RR before telling people to hammer creative just to make sure he wasn’t right about PR read? Doesn’t make sense.

The way wheme has played all of d3 has been very passive and reactionary on d2 he asked people what we thought of creative and quoted two posts from grif and creative and said he didn’t like them and defended samcro. D1 he pushed onto pooky and asked you if you Sussed him skitter. Today he has very little content most of it is just saying “can’t believe you sus me” he doesn’t respond to any of my arguments just says oh maybe ur scum. He keeps saying he Sussed creative all game but by his own explanation he thought creatives was a PR d1 and tried to help him live n2 so he’s not even being internally consistent he first expresses sus on creative early d2 after kaz had voted creative already on d2. This reactionary play style focused upon guilt tripping me rather than him arguing or providing quotes like he did on d2 is very scummy to me.

I will vote wheme in final 3 for sure, and if I die I ask you to vote wheme too skitter. But I’ll await your ongoing thoughts.

he seemed to be imminently being the eod flip tho
like yeah nobody had literaly given intent just yet, but it seemed like we were about to get there, no? especially with the looming deadlne

i actually think that creative blaming wheme for forcing him to claim is anti-partner-y, it felt weird at the time
also the fact that kaz created a binary between sam and creative meant that *once creative claimed* he had perfect reason to go off of creative and onto sam - it literally gave him a reason to vote anybody but his partner

r.e. your second paragraph about wheme. the 'passive and reactionary' things you're calling out, again, i think are just the way he plays. i dont' think ti's inherently scummy for him

[six pomegranate seeds]

Maybe you can be right skitter. If you're mafia at this point I'll probably lose the game.

Part of why I was SRing wheme was that as this day has gone on you have felt more and more town and I thought it was weird when I asked him if kaz is mafia he didn't even consider it.

I do think andante sussing kaz can point to kaz and him being willing to swap to SAMCRO maybe is scummy before I show up. And honestly his supicions have been soooooo good this game it is a little bit sus. When I'm town I almost never just start sussing mafia exclusively the whole game, Kaz playe super super well if he is town sussing creative d1 and wheme EOD2.

Can you go through the points in 981 skitte?

[skitter30]

on it

[skitter30]

1 ) The early suss and pocket - 51 -> 71. Kaz says early he will not try to scum hunt (he says he’s not that good at it) but then gets an early scumping and can’t hold back. I like that he says it isn’t a heavy scum read - he sounds uncertain just like he expressed in 51 that he isn’t that confident in his reads. I think 72 from creative name where he actually tells Kaz “That's quite ok, because it means you're acting kinda solvey” doesn’t read as a pair, it reads as creative trying to pocket and pacify an uncertain town Kaz. Kaz unvotes creative in 115 but think this can be consistent with Kaz feeling uncertain. Him calling Wheme a doofus for refusing to elaborate on his Creative PR read reads town to me.

i, uh, don't really get what you're getting at iwth calling out 51 and 71. he says he's not good at scumhunting, sure, but i'm not really following why saying such makes this is a town progression.

i can see 72

[skitter30]

2 ) Fake helpful - In post 78 Creative gives advice to Kazyan “If you find it easier to scum read people definitely go for that, I know some people are better at townreading and some are better at scumreading, also I'll probably make a reads list at some point so look out for that.” It reads similarly to 138 where Creative gives advice to town griff “That's perfectly ok, you're here now, one piece of advice i'd give is to have a notes page or document you can jot your thoughts and reads on so you don't lose track of them and have an easy time referring back to them.” Creative gives advice to the towns as a way of pocketing - each post reads similarly. SAMCRO instantly calls this out in 140. Since Creative is fake helpful to Kaz - Kaz is town.

i agree that 78 and 138 are similar but i'm not sure why he can't write 78 to a partner

[six pomegranate seeds]

I also just don't understand why wheme keeps on acting like he found scum on page 5 when that's objectively not what happened.

The first thing that ever pinged me about Kaz was that he defended me when you and andante were calling me scummy and that's happened to me so many times when I am town that people are attacking me and I am upset, and the mafia is the ones who defend me because they can see how townie I am while the town is afraid of me.

[WhemeStar]

Who asked for short night btw

I did not ask for short night. I didn't know it existed. I replied yes when I was asked if I agreed to it. Why did you want to know this wheme?

I thought it could point to who scum is for some reason. I thought skitter asked for it but guess not so idk

[six pomegranate seeds]

I also really don't understand why Wheme PR read creative and where that line "Creative you'd be my night kill" came from. That pings so scummy to me knowing that Creative ends up being mafia. Not being able to explain your suspicion is just soooooo bad from wheme.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Who asked for short night btw

I did not ask for short night. I didn't know it existed. I replied yes when I was asked if I agreed to it. Why did you want to know this wheme?

I thought it could point to who scum is for some reason. I thought skitter asked for it but guess not so idk

So I want to know what your conclusion is from the answers you got then.

[six pomegranate seeds]

2 ) Fake helpful - In post 78 Creative gives advice to Kazyan “If you find it easier to scum read people definitely go for that, I know some people are better at townreading and some are better at scumreading, also I'll probably make a reads list at some point so look out for that.” It reads similarly to 138 where Creative gives advice to town griff “That's perfectly ok, you're here now, one piece of advice i'd give is to have a notes page or document you can jot your thoughts and reads on so you don't lose track of them and have an easy time referring back to them.” Creative gives advice to the towns as a way of pocketing - each post reads similarly. SAMCRO instantly calls this out in 140. Since Creative is fake helpful to Kaz - Kaz is town.

i agree that 78 and 138 are similar but i'm not sure why he can't write 78 to a partner

He could it's just I didn't think he would.

[skitter30]

3 ) The one active - one inactive theory agreement in 111 / 115 / 116 - Creative proposes a one active one inactive theory and Kaz actually agrees to the arbitrary theory - on initial read of the game I thought postulating about this seemed fine and townie and I think Kaz agreeing with Creative and using that as an excuse to invote does not seem like a scum pair move. Level one scum imo want to be seen in superficial disagreement with one another - 118 from wheme he disagrees with Creative’s idea.

if both scum are in the active category creating an inactive category to push seems liek a good move for both of them, no? not sure why this is +town for kaz

[skitter30]

4 ) The borrowing of arguments - 121 Pooky is pushing back on Creative’s reasoning that it is scummy to start a wagon (ironic since Creative just said starting a wagon is good so that there is no - no elim on d1 in prior post 59. At this point Kaz swoops in and provides more reasoning for why Pooky is scummy i.e. Pooky has no content 123. At this point Creative basically sheeps what Kaz’s read was, he never uses the words contentless to describe pooky until he echoes kaz here 125 “what I quoted, was like kazyan said content-less posting and warning me of a danger no one else seemed to see.” In game pooky has 3 votes wheme has 2 if Kaz is scum with Creative both of them have been widely TR to this point with the exception of Kaz and Wheme light sussing creative - neither of them appear to be d1 vote candidates so I see no reason for them to align like this and for creative to openly sheep Kaz’s reasoning here.

again i don't see why they can't tho

like a lot of these posts are things like: 'i don't know why partners would do that so kaz is town'
but like i don't know why partners *can't* do these things and i don't find these things to be clearing

[WhemeStar]

Who asked for short night btw

I did not ask for short night. I didn't know it existed. I replied yes when I was asked if I agreed to it. Why did you want to know this wheme?

I thought it could point to who scum is for some reason. I thought skitter asked for it but guess not so idk

So I want to know what your conclusion is from the answers you got then.

Nothing really

[WhemeStar]

I also really don't understand why Wheme PR read creative and where that line "Creative you'd be my night kill" came from. That pings so scummy to me knowing that Creative ends up being mafia. Not being able to explain your suspicion is just soooooo bad from wheme.

Why do you think mafia interacts with their partner like that

[skitter30]

5 ) The organic Creative suss 208 - Kaz identifying discordance from Creative’s early aggression on SAMCRO to his mason post later on feels like a real read. Contrast with Wheme’s SR from PR reading Creative from 94 if you’re not PR your scum. Kaz is identifying something that actually looks real in Creative’s posting. Kaz also said that Pooky v Creative arguing about RVS meme wagon did not feel town on town I love that he is afraid of confirmation bias in his post here. This is exactly what I was afraid of reading myself into the skitter sus when I first entered the game.

this one i think is actually a valid point, but it kinda harkens back to the point i brought up earlier - kaz keeps findign reasons to scumread creative, and more importantly, then finds reasons later on *to stop* pushing creative
and i don't know why

[skitter30]

6 ) The wagon follow through - as pointed out by Skitter Kaz asks how to analyze the wagon 209 then follows through 224. Also Kaz was not on the pooky badwagon debacle of d1. And Kazyan is actually convinced in 226 and 227 to vote SAMCRO by Creative in part. Why would a mafia partner convince their mafia partner to change votes in broad daylight in the day chat?

because it's a lot better for partner-kaz to be voting sam than partner-creative? again like the last one this ties into my broader point that although he was scumreading creative all game it was very easy for him to switch off (even at creative's behest)

[skitter30]

7 ) The commit to Creative vote - 326 Kaz takes my town case on SAMCRO and votes into creative tying it 2-2. It’s not the votes that make it townie because mafia know that creative could claim tracer, but perhaps the tone of remaining internally consistent voting between creative and Samcro instead of following me and voting skitter is the townie part. I also know note that Wheme in 334 went from scumming my slot earlier d2 to now TRing me while creative goes from TRing my slot with grif to now SRing it - it’s funny how they are on the opposite side of literally everything in the game do they agree once? lol.

ok ithink this one has a point

[skitter30]

8 ) The prelim thought followed by the walk back - 382 / 384 - stuff like this is very townie. Kaz remains internally consistent thinking there’s a man in SAM vs. Creative fight. They express anxiety that mafia is trying to deflect out of the vote. This makes total sense with their later “north star” post that they want to vote them out in any order to get the game into a winnable state - which makes sense from a town perspective. Creative says someone is trying to deflect out of the pool of SAMCRO creative but then realizes that everyone was voting into that pool before me and says he feels silly. This could be him TMIing that I’m town I guess but I still read it as town that he thinks something is true without verifying it and posts, then realizes it isn’t true and backtracks. Feels like a town playing off of instinct and speaking their mind not rechecking logs.

i don't townread this either really

~
all in all while i appreciate the analysis most of your points i either disagree with or don't put nearly as much weight on them as you do

[six pomegranate seeds]

I also really don't understand why Wheme PR read creative and where that line "Creative you'd be my night kill" came from. That pings so scummy to me knowing that Creative ends up being mafia. Not being able to explain your suspicion is just soooooo bad from wheme.

Why do you think mafia interacts with their partner like that

Because I think your early game win con was to get a TR from skitter and that line can easily be set up by your partner and Skitter TR you for it.

Also, Wheme is trying really hard while Kaz has basically gone AWOL:
since post 810

Skitter 83
Seeds 69
Wheme 54
Kaz 16
Creative 6

After seeing Creative wiggle around while SAM just bailed I'm inclined to think this is wheme wiggling. It's much easier to get a town voted than a mafia.

[six pomegranate seeds]

At post #50 there are two votes on wheme (kaz/pooky) / two votes on pooky (SAMCRO / whemestar)

#55 creative jumps in with his vote that puts 3 votes on pooky (SAMCRO / whemestar / Creative) saying this is a gut read. I wonder if this is just scum making sure that pooky will be the default vote over their partner if no one comes to a conclusion at EOD since they have more votes. Losing your partner on d1 would be impossible to recover from on d1. This could explain creative’s impulse to jump in here with a shit push on pooky.

Can you look at this part of the game skitter? It looks to me like Creative's vote is intended to protect wheme because creative has to force such shitty logic while at the same time light scumming wheme when he could in fact vote wheme instead.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I do admit my town case on Kaz felt weaker than my town case for you skitter.

[six pomegranate seeds]

Maybe it is townie from Wheme tho because Kaz / Creative / Skitter / Wheme had the votes to hammer SAMCRO before any replacements even show up so I do admit I initially TR you for defending SAMCRO before I even showed up Wheme.

[skitter30]

At post #50 there are two votes on wheme (kaz/pooky) / two votes on pooky (SAMCRO / whemestar)

#55 creative jumps in with his vote that puts 3 votes on pooky (SAMCRO / whemestar / Creative) saying this is a gut read. I wonder if this is just scum making sure that pooky will be the default vote over their partner if no one comes to a conclusion at EOD since they have more votes. Losing your partner on d1 would be impossible to recover from on d1. This could explain creative’s impulse to jump in here with a shit push on pooky.

Can you look at this part of the game skitter? It looks to me like Creative's vote is intended to protect wheme because creative has to force such shitty logic while at the same time light scumming wheme when he could in fact vote wheme instead.

but this is so early in the day though, and we weren't anywhere close to eod, and i can't imagine that most scum woudl be worried about a partner imminently getting flipped because of having more votes at that point. like yes if they're both scum he probably wants to vote pooky over wheme but for this reason i dont' think it's as 'heavy' of a vote as you're making it out to be - i don't think it's clearing

(you gotta remember that these days are weeklong, and not just like 24 hours long)

[six pomegranate seeds]

You do notice that Pooky did turn into the D1 vote after creative made him majority though right?

[skitter30]

yes but that only happened cuz the day was cut short
that doesn't usually happen