Newbie 1766 - Game Over

[rb]

Like I want to judge if anyone else has cases that have merit to them that I've overlooked that point to Sofiel/the_end. Justify the Lucca N1 kill attempt, show me scumslips, anything. I don't think it's likely but I was thinking the_end would be the player to flip onto Aero, not Sofiel, because I was thinking the team is Sofiel/Aero

Aero I want you to explain what was pointing you towards the_end being scum before rb voted you and you flipped your TR on him into a SR

Tbh it's really the_end + aero.

[rb]

The thing is, scum have ZERO reason to bus right now. They need to play cohesive and ally themselves with one another to secure the mislynch. the_end pretty much just entirely ignored Aero today, and vice-versa. Like the entire game is interacting, except those two. It's so blatant they're the scumteam.

[rb]

Lucca, take a look at interactions between the_end + Aero. Look at what they DON'T do as much as they do. Tell me what you think.

[the_end]

bye, prod dodging until this shit game is over either via lynching the scum or losing by lynching me

gtfo and dont come back. You've done nothing but ruin a good game with your shit posts, cursing and shit play. Good riddance.

I know this is a game of catching liars and things get heated but you need to not say stuff like this.

You need to stop cursing, calling people names and tone down your abrasiveness.

Ssbm I'm slowly coming around to the idea that the_end could actually be town despite their toxic as fuck attitude and despite the fact that they somehow have zero townreads and zero scumreads all game and just 'lean' on everything.

First you accuse me of only having scumreads. Now you're blathering about me not having town or scum reads.

The thing is, scum have ZERO reason to bus right now. They need to play cohesive and ally themselves with one another to secure the mislynch. the_end pretty much just entirely ignored Aero today, and vice-versa. Like the entire game is interacting, except those two. It's so blatant they're the scumteam.

Play cohesively - exactly how Sofiel and you are playing. Sofiel has ignored you all of today. And the only thing you've said to Sofiel is to change his vote from you to Aero, which is blatant coaching.

[the_end]

The thing is, scum have ZERO reason to bus right now. They need to play cohesive and ally themselves with one another to secure the mislynch. the_end pretty much just entirely ignored Aero today, and vice-versa. Like the entire game is interacting, except those two. It's so blatant they're the scumteam.

Sofiel is no longer busing rb after the wagon on rb started gaining momentum. sofiel and rb are now both on aero's wagon to secure the mislynch. rb is accusing aero and me of doing the exact same thing Sofiel and he are doing.

[lucca261]

The strange thing about Sofiel and The_End is that during all the game, Sofiel had End as one of his scumreads, but he never voted End, had no problems being on the same wagon than End and they barely interacted. Strange for you to never interact with a scumread?

On D1 Sofiel thought all day that was either Friend or End. He never votes or applies pressure to End. Just make the scumread. His scumreads on both Zekrom and Friend revolve on them voting together on End. Sofiel was one of the biggest proponents of the Friend mislynch. On D2, though, Sofiel is very quickly to vote Zekro, who wasn't one of his scumreads and aside from one question, he doesn't make contact with End. On D3, Sofiel thinks it's RB with Aero or End. Then he votes RB. After that, he votes Aero.

On The_End stuff, at the start of D1, he parks his vote on Sofiel until he votes Friend at the end of D1. No pressure applied to Sofiel, nothing. He just votes Sofiel on the premise that RB and Sofiel are scum buddies. On D2, after parking his vote on Sofiel the entire D1, he say nothing about him, on a day that Sofiel had a chance of getting lynched. On D3, he seems to want to vote either RB or Aeronaut, leaving his options open. Then he suddenly thinks it's RB and Sofiel, and votes RB. But he don't pressure Sofiel and anything. Again, he just say that Sofiel is scum, and the rest of his interactions are trying to get RB lynched.

I think the only reason that End said that he would vote Sofiel is because he's trying to make Kyouko vote Aero again. Then he would quick lynch Aero. It's their strategy for today. They are trying to quick lynch either RB or Aeronaut. They're both pushing both, and whoever gets to three votes first is getting the fourth.

About the night kill, I think they tried to kill me because I accused Sofiel. Think, if I'm killed after making that posts, people would just say: It's WIFOM, somebody trying to incriminate Sofiel.

The reason I think that Sofiel is scum is because everybody wants to vote Sofiel today. He would have been the probable lynch. But nobody votes him. Also, that L-1 vote on Aero, unannounced is very very scummy and makes me think that Sofiel partner is outside the wagon waiting for hammer. The players outside Aero's wagon are me, Aero and End. I don't think Aero would vote himself, I'm not the partner. Leaves End. Very strange too that they're both scumreading himself but had no concern about staying together on all of the lynches so far, and were both on RB on the same time.

[lucca261]

Also, kyouko is not scum with Aero and Sofiel 100%.

[lucca261]

Taking a look on Aero/The_End

[Sofiel]

The Aero/the_end stuff is so obvious. I voted rb because I thought he'd gone mostly unchecked throughout the game so far. I voted him to pressure him & I went v/la and the_end/Aero both jumped opportunistically onto it one after the other. I unvoted rb because Aero voted him in 483 and even tho I wanted Aero to be town that vote just set it for me and I didn't want to be on the same wagon as him. I voted for him because I think he needs more pressure on him altho I totally didn't make the connection I was putting him at L-1 (to be fair i'd just woken up and hadn't fully read thru everything). I'm trying to pressure the people who have gone unchecked so we can get more info on them tbh bc before the aero/t_e/rb argument rb hadn't said much and t_e was coasting by. Seeing his angriness just speaks to me like newbscum trying to emulate angry town & a lot of his insults are just uncalled for. also can we just talk about the hypocrisy in 583: "stop cursing" in the same quote thread where t_e literally said "gtfo" "shit play" etc...? It's scum scrabbling to get the vote back on rb and off his partner.

I wasn't bussing rb bc I'd have nothing to gain from bussing him??? Before my vote there was not a hell of a lot of discourse about a Sofiel/rb scumteam and the only thing this vote/unvote would have done is put the focus back on me? Look at the info my vote gave the town about Aero/t_e/rb and come back to me on that one ya lmao. I explained my reason for voting for Aero: he opportunistically jumped on a wagon w his scum partner and rb's reactions say town to me and now Aero/t_e are both trying to drive a wagon off of them and onto each other.

and @Lucca just remember in that everyone are 2 scum that want to divide the town players. I started the D1 FC lynch I'll admit but t_e voted for it and Aero didnt and there were theories that one scum was on the wagon and one wasn't. Zekro was lead by Aero and t_e voted after he came back and then Aero unvoted at the last moment so he could claim "well I unvoted so it was a town play" D3.

[Sofiel]

drive a wagon off of one of them (i.e get rid of the Aero wagon) and onto someone else (i.e. back to rb)*** sorry for the mistake

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think Sofiel and the_end should cross-vote (both vote each other) because they both think the other is scum with either of rb/aero

[ssbm_Kyouko]

actually nah I'm just gonna wait for Aero's reply to 536

[rb]

UNVOTE:

So lucca you think there's a good chance aero is town here?

[Aeronaut]

UNVOTE:

[Aeronaut]

As far as resistance to a sofiel lynch today, Lucca makes a pretty good point.

And as for Sofiel's willingness to jump on to FC, Zeke and then either RB or I today, that's an even better point. He's not really trying to figure stuff out for most of the days in the game, he's just sort of posting and jumping onto whatever

[Aeronaut]

Ugh I'm being hasty w/ RB and I shouldn't be.


Right now, though, I just feel like there's no reason I stay alive other than that I was blatantly wrong all game, and that really is bothering me.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

actually nah I'm just gonna wait for Aero's reply to 536

[Aeronaut]

Because I townread both on day 1; why kill me on N1 when you could easily let me steer the town wrong?

You townread both of who?

I repeat, what was your question in 519 when you asked me "when?"

I townread you and RB on day 1, so there was no reason to kill me; if I'd been hard SRing him and you D1, I'd be gone.

This is where I'm at.

{NT}Sofiel [S: 38*][T: 47, 116]
{NT}rb (SE) [T: 118]

{N}ThinkBig(SE)
{N}ssbm_Kyouko (SE) [T: 43][S: 75]
{N}lucca261 [T: 84, 89][S: 93*, 118*]

{NS}the_end [S: RL*]
{NS}Friend Computer [S: 101*]

{LS}Zekromaster [S: 41*, 103*]

Spoiler: ***

38* This kind of stuck me as scum feeling the waters to see what is ok/not ok to do.
41* Ok... but you're going to efforts to show us that you're active, but aren't actually doing anything to help the game move forward.
93* willing to sheep
RL* Readslist; I really dislike how a lot the scum reads in this list, he later on sort of retracts by saying "I'm not sure"
101* I feel like this is somebody who read a lot of the last 2 or so pages, picked an argument, and then repeated it to look town
103* This post had three "I agree"s and one self defense for lurking. Nothing post to look busy.
118* Baseless/meaningless questions

Spoiler: Key

Conftown - {CT}

Town - {T}

LeanTown - {LT}

NullTown - {NT}

Null - {N}

NullScum - {NS}

LeanScum - {LS}

Scum - {S}

ConfScum - {CS}

I was definitely a null for you d1, you never shifted that to a TR, just double checked myself

Yeah, but my point was that I wasn't scumreading you or actively pushing you, which would be pretty good reason to keep me alive.

When did Lucca townread you on D1?

I didn't say he TRed me D1, I said he displayed a willingness to adjust his read on me.

Lucca also displayed willingness to alter his read on me during D1 while we had a very long discussion about my motives and how he was misinterpreting things. Why would I kill a towny that was reversing their SR on me?

Town players that are willing to reconsider when they're SRing town are dangerous to scum, that's another reason why a scumteam that

didn't

include me would target Lucca for the N1 kill.

This is where he showed such a willingness:

Spoiler: Progression of Lucca's read on me

I get the feeling lucca is very suspicious of me and hesitates to say it. I felt like he saw my reaction test and decided to try one of his own on me when he offered to sheep me on someone who he thought was null.

I don't hesitate to say that at all. I was waiting to see if you were going to interact with me about my vote, but you isn't so interested. So, let's get going:

- My first reason to suspect kyouko was his vote at think. Not the vote itself (that I would hate if it was serious, but since it was a reaction test, it's ok), but the "case" he made on Think's earlier posts, compared to a response he gave me. I quote:

pedit:
@Lucca - As for whether my vote was a reaction test: yes it was, but I had a real reason to suspect him, it was just a weak reason. I was just about to ask you what you thought about that exchange. Do you think ThinkBig has been so towny this game that my vote should not be on him?

My point is: he had a real reason, even if he had a weak reason to vote him. his words. To me, it appears that reason he's talking about it's the answer to my question. But then, after voting him for the answer, he went there and posted a "case" based on his earlier posts, at #81. I don't get this. All of Think's posts were available for him to do that "case" earlier, when he voted him for the answer. So why he said his vote was a reaction test based only on the answer? Also, I thought he was cleverly asking me if I was open to a Think's lynch. So I went and voted for him.

The reason for the vote is easy. If he is town on that exchange with Think, and even later, with Zekrom, he seems to be the type of player who finds the tiniest crack, and pushes on it, to create interaction between players. So I went and voted for a null player. If you look at my post where I say I'm willing to sheep and call him null, it's a small post, with one line. I knew I was being scummy. I expected Kyouko, especially !townkyouko, to push on it, given that he seems to vote for people over the tiniest stuff, to get a reaction. But he only commented on it.

I also voted Think for his own reaction. I thought his reaction, over 1 vote, on the early stage of the game, to be weirdly big. But if someone voted me for the PM stuff, I think I would've been kinda mad, too. I can see this coming from both town and scum. So I voted him, to develop a better read on him.

---

The second reason that I suspect kyouko it's his change at voting. He, on #95:

I decided to vote him, but instead of explaining I decided to test him with the vote. My vote on him is real...

and on #102:

Also finish catch up and comment on my ThinkBig exchange

seemed both happy staying voting Think, and testing the waters for a possible wagon on him. But then, on #105 he suddenly changes his vote for Zekrom. for that, let's go to his answers to Aero:

Thinkbig may have disagreed with why I was SRing him, but I don't think his response to my vote was towny at all. A town reaction would be to disregard something that nobody else would follow. I feel like nobody is reading the entirety of that exchange, because you're probably the third person who thinks my original reason for voting TB was actually because I thought he read about daytalk in his own role PM. I explained the reason I voted him after I was done testing him. Also I strongly disagree with the bolded, if scum just defends themselves and never hunts for "scum" they would lose a lot more games than they do

That's not true. I asked you if it was a reaction test, or if you had voted Think seriously for his comment to me. Your answer: "As for whether my vote was a reaction test: yes it was, but I had a real reason to suspect him, it was just a weak reason". Here is you clearly saying that you voted him for that comment.

Also, on this answer to Aero he seems very suspicious aboout Think, saying that the response to his vote was not towny. I had just voted Think. If you think a player response to his vote wasn't towny, when the same player gets another vote to react against, would you vote another player so quickly?

VOTE: Kyouko

---

going to say my thoughts on this page, as well as my reads on each player on another post.

Thinkbig may have disagreed with why I was SRing him, but I don't think his response to my vote was towny at all. A town reaction would be to disregard something that nobody else would follow. I feel like nobody is reading the entirety of that exchange, because you're probably the third person who thinks my original reason for voting TB was actually because I thought he read about daytalk in his own role PM. I explained the reason I voted him after I was done testing him. Also I strongly disagree with the bolded, if scum just defends themselves and never hunts for "scum" they would lose a lot more games than they do

That's not true. I asked you if it was a reaction test, or if you had voted Think seriously for his comment to me. Your answer: "As for whether my vote was a reaction test: yes it was, but I had a real reason to suspect him, it was just a weak reason". Here is you clearly saying that you voted him for that comment.

VOTE: Kyouko

Yeah that's definitely not me saying I voted TB for his comment about daytalk directed at you. I told you my vote was a reaction test. I also told you I had a real reason to suspect him, but didn't tell you what it was in that post. My reason for originally voting him is in 81. The comment about daytalk was meant to bait a reaction out of him

It's because people think I literally voted TB for reading his role PM, and not for the reasons detailed in 81
(I think)

What pings me a bit is that neither of the_end or zekromaster are on my wagon rn which makes me think they aren't the scumteam. Lucca looks probably the towniest vote on my wagon with those detailed explanations, but I think he's misinterpreting some key points due to the language barrier

It's because people think I literally voted TB for reading his role PM, and not for the reasons detailed in 81
(I think)

What pings me a bit is that neither of the_end or zekromaster are on my wagon rn which makes me think they aren't the scumteam. Lucca looks probably the towniest vote on my wagon with those detailed explanations, but I think he's misinterpreting some key points due to the language barrier

What points to you think I'm misinterpreting? Only the PM vote? Or there is something else on the "case" I made on you that you think I was misinterpreting?

Not much has really happened but it's only page 7. That's a fair clarification. My wagon sux btw

Meh. The only scummy vote on your wagon, given what has ocurred on this page, is Friend, I think. I want an explanation from him ASAP.

--

@end, he voted for SSBM.

It's because people think I literally voted TB for reading his role PM, and not for the reasons detailed in 81
(I think)

What pings me a bit is that neither of the_end or zekromaster are on my wagon rn which makes me think they aren't the scumteam. Lucca looks probably the towniest vote on my wagon with those detailed explanations, but I think he's misinterpreting some key points due to the language barrier

What points to you think I'm misinterpreting? Only the PM vote? Or there is something else on the "case" I made on you that you think I was misinterpreting?

Gonna outline what I think you're misinterpreting below. Making this from phone so it may not be as well organized as it should be for a wallpost

I get the feeling lucca is very suspicious of me and hesitates to say it. I felt like he saw my reaction test and decided to try one of his own on me when he offered to sheep me on someone who he thought was null.

I don't hesitate to say that at all. I was waiting to see if you were going to interact with me about my vote, but you isn't so interested. So, let's get going:

- My first reason to suspect kyouko was his vote at think. Not the vote itself (that I would hate if it was serious, but since it was a reaction test, it's ok), but the "case" he made on Think's earlier posts, compared to a response he gave me. I quote:

pedit:
@Lucca - As for whether my vote was a reaction test: yes it was, but I had a real reason to suspect him, it was just a weak reason. I was just about to ask you what you thought about that exchange. Do you think ThinkBig has been so towny this game that my vote should not be on him?

My point is: he had a real reason, even if he had a weak reason to vote him. his words. To me, it appears that reason he's talking about it's the answer to my question. But then, after voting him for the answer, he went there and posted a "case" based on his earlier posts, at #81. I don't get this. All of Think's posts were available for him to do that "case" earlier, when he voted him for the answer.

So why he said his vote was a reaction test based only on the answer?

Also, I thought he was cleverly asking me if I was open to a Think's lynch. So I went and voted for him.

The reason for the vote is easy. If he is town on that exchange with Think, and even later, with Zekrom, he seems to be the type of player who finds the tiniest crack, and pushes on it, to create interaction between players. So I went and voted for a null player. If you look at my post where I say I'm willing to sheep and call him null, it's a small post, with one line. I knew I was being scummy. I expected Kyouko, especially !townkyouko, to push on it, given that he seems to vote for people over the tiniest stuff, to get a reaction. But he only commented on it.

---

The second reason that I suspect kyouko it's his change at voting. He, on #95:

I decided to vote him, but instead of explaining I decided to test him with the vote. My vote on him is real...

and on #102:

Also finish catch up and comment on my ThinkBig exchange

seemed both happy staying voting Think, and testing the waters for a possible wagon on him

. But then, on #105 he suddenly changes his vote for Zekrom. for that, let's go to his answers to Aero:

Thinkbig may have disagreed with why I was SRing him, but I don't think his response to my vote was towny at all. A town reaction would be to disregard something that nobody else would follow. I feel like nobody is reading the entirety of that exchange, because you're probably the third person who thinks my original reason for voting TB was actually because I thought he read about daytalk in his own role PM. I explained the reason I voted him after I was done testing him. Also I strongly disagree with the bolded, if scum just defends themselves and never hunts for "scum" they would lose a lot more games than they do

That's not true. I asked you if it was a reaction test, or if you had voted Think seriously for his comment to me. Your answer: "As for whether my vote was a reaction test: yes it was, but I had a real reason to suspect him, it was just a weak reason".

Here is you clearly saying that you voted him for that comment

.

Also, on this answer to Aero he seems very suspicious aboout Think, saying that the response to his vote was not towny. I had just voted Think. If you think a player response to his vote wasn't towny, when the same player gets another vote to react against, would you vote another player so quickly?

VOTE: Kyouko

---

going to say my thoughts on this page, as well as my reads on each player on another post.

Going to address the bolded in order.

• My vote was a reaction test because I decided to withhold my reason for voting him when I voted him. I had already noticed the posts I quoted in 81 when I pushed on TB. I didn't come up with those reasons after seeing a bad reaction to my vote.
• 102 was directed at the_end who had posted something on a partial catch-up up to page 3 I believe. I told them to finish their catch-up and comment on my exchange because they were the player I thought TB was chainsawing for, and I wasn't sure if it was because they were scum together or if it was TB trying to pocket the_end. the_end put gave weak stances on both of us that implied he either didn't fully understand my 81 or hadn't read it. I wanted to hear what he thought of my accusing TB of chainsawing him, so I told him to finish catching up and then comment on it. And of course I was happy voting TB at the time, he was my top SR at the time.
• That was not me clearly stating I'd voted him for the comment about daytalk, that was me explaining in my answer that your question wasn't worded correctly because the answer wasn't as simple as the closed-ended question suggested. I clarified that I
  both
  had a reason to vote him
  and
  that my vote was reaction testing him.

VOTE: Zekromaster

So I reread some old posts of mine, and some kyouko posts, and I can see that maybe I was overanalysing some stuff, especially the reaction test. I still think Kyouko is kinda scummy, but liked his interactions with me enough to unvote him and go to my other scumread.

I don't like Zekrom scumread of End. I feel like its inconsistent with his early game, and he doesn't believe it, just saw other people say it and repetead just to get under the radar. So I'm happy putting him at L2

my second readslist:

TOWN
- aeronaut: liking his posts. he is seeing this game from a town point of view, and is trying to look for scum. liked his exchange with Kyouko, and he seems to be effectively reading the thread and trying to look for scum, instead of just asking questions without any followup.
- end: I'm at the point where i'm thinking end's wagon was clearly a mislynch bait. he is clear-headed, analyse things and seems to think for himself, without sheeping other player thoughts.
- rb: after the strong start, he seemed to stopped scumhunting, and I don't know why his vote is still on end. he could be more present. I feel like his posts are asking why kyouko is the leading wagon, and trying to lynch end.
- sofiel: mostly by POE. sofiel stepped up. his posts seem to be looking for scum. but his #220 concerns me. especially where the part where he says: "hey, if Friend doesn't work tonight, let's look at Zekrom tomorrow" this is lining up lynches, and feels like scum that knows friend will flip town.
- think: his vote on end concerns me, and the unvote exactly when things started to change makes me feel uneasy. he is going with the flow.
- friend: his wagon makes me think he is townier. it feels like he made a bad vote, and now scum are trying to use the vote to make a counterwagon to zekrom.
- kyouko: still think he's scummy, but he's not getting lynched tonight. his posts feel like a mixed bag, and he seems to change wagons everytime the wagon he is is gaining force. that's a strange mindset for a town player.
- zekrom: everything makes sense if he's scum. he's coasting, trying to look town, parroting other people opinions...and it's crazy how much unspoken resistance there is to his wagon.

---

@zekrom, what is your view on the friend vote right now?
@friend, any reasons for your vote at end beside the readlist?
@end, can I interest you with a Zekro lynch?
@aero, what's your read on Kyouko?

By the end of the day Lucca was reconsidering his SR on me to the point that he wasn't willing to lynch me today because I had a strange mindset for town

I mean, every town player should be willing to reconsider stuff.

You're right, though. In my mind lucca had been hardSRing you all game, and it was more leaning null. There wasn't any point where he was like "I will not lynch this person" which would have made me think that it couldn't include you, though.


P-edit I'm DOING it Gawsh

[Aeronaut]

Sofiel, can you tell us your reads as they stand right now?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

GAWSH

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Hmm, neither te nor Aero pushed Sofiel D2 did they? @rb/lucca

[rb]

Don't think so

[rb]

You're thinking we should lynch Sofiel today?

[rb]

Honestly I've had them on townread for a while, if I'm wrong about aero or the_end though then idk.

[rb]

The strange thing about Sofiel and The_End is that during all the game, Sofiel had End as one of his scumreads, but he never voted End, had no problems being on the same wagon than End and they barely interacted. Strange for you to never interact with a scumread?

On D1 Sofiel thought all day that was either Friend or End. He never votes or applies pressure to End. Just make the scumread. His scumreads on both Zekrom and Friend revolve on them voting together on End. Sofiel was one of the biggest proponents of the Friend mislynch. On D2, though, Sofiel is very quickly to vote Zekro, who wasn't one of his scumreads and aside from one question, he doesn't make contact with End. On D3, Sofiel thinks it's RB with Aero or End. Then he votes RB. After that, he votes Aero.

On The_End stuff, at the start of D1, he parks his vote on Sofiel until he votes Friend at the end of D1. No pressure applied to Sofiel, nothing. He just votes Sofiel on the premise that RB and Sofiel are scum buddies. On D2, after parking his vote on Sofiel the entire D1, he say nothing about him, on a day that Sofiel had a chance of getting lynched. On D3, he seems to want to vote either RB or Aeronaut, leaving his options open. Then he suddenly thinks it's RB and Sofiel, and votes RB. But he don't pressure Sofiel and anything. Again, he just say that Sofiel is scum, and the rest of his interactions are trying to get RB lynched.

I think the only reason that End said that he would vote Sofiel is because he's trying to make Kyouko vote Aero again. Then he would quick lynch Aero. It's their strategy for today. They are trying to quick lynch either RB or Aeronaut. They're both pushing both, and whoever gets to three votes first is getting the fourth.

About the night kill, I think they tried to kill me because I accused Sofiel. Think, if I'm killed after making that posts, people would just say: It's WIFOM, somebody trying to incriminate Sofiel.

The reason I think that Sofiel is scum is because everybody wants to vote Sofiel today. He would have been the probable lynch. But nobody votes him. Also, that L-1 vote on Aero, unannounced is very very scummy and makes me think that Sofiel partner is outside the wagon waiting for hammer. The players outside Aero's wagon are me, Aero and End. I don't think Aero would vote himself, I'm not the partner. Leaves End. Very strange too that they're both scumreading himself but had no concern about staying together on all of the lynches so far, and were both on RB on the same time.

These are pretty good points and I reckon we should get them to crossvote like ssbm said.