Open 607 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over

[shaddowez]

I don't know what to think, as my thoughts have been wrong most of the game. I thought both mastin and Rainbow were mason (mastin from hers and random's voting pattern, and was guessing Rainbow's VT crumbs were a gambit). Since Wanderer was a mason, obviously I was wrong. I'm more inclined to believe mastin is scum, and 948 seems to be a last ditch effort of "It looks like I'm scum but I'm not". However, I don't want to vote andbe wrong just to have scum hammer, so I'm going to reread.

I have a job interview tomorrow, so may not get back to this until after that.

[Rainbow Unicat]

So, just to be sure, it is still the case that neither of you feel like counterclaiming me? It would make me happy if one of you felt like doing that. It would save me some trouble.

(and yeah, baiting the nightkill is something I do when I'm frustrated with a game. I try not to do it when I'm a PR but it's really frustrating not to have a way out of a game that has becoming soul crushing for me, but we reached a point where we just needed one more VT nightkill to win the game and I was feeling somewhat better and at that point it felt like continuing to bait the nightkill was playing against my win condition so I played up the LOOK AT ME I AM TOTALLY BAITING THE NIGHTKILL ARENT I YEAH THAT IS ME RIGHT HERE NIGHTKILL BAITING YEP angle and hey it worked except for the part where i'm stuck here in LYLO and I hate LYLO.)

--P

[mastin2]

Well, that explains why Shadow wasn't the nightkill. (I actually went into today thinking that if Rainbow was scum, the option I actually kinda sorta leaned to thanks to the VTslips which could no longer be from an actual VT.)

VOTE: Shaddowez.

My sympathies, Plot.

[Rainbow Unicat]

Shaddowez, do you have anything to say?

--P

[shaddowez]

Prodge, be back tomorrow night

Didn't have time after my interview, and forgot about weekend plans.

[West9]

Vote Count 6.01

Shaddowez

[1] - mastin2

Not Voting

[2] - Rainbow Unicat, shaddowez

Day 6 will end on October 7 at 6:30 PM PST, or in (expired on 2015-10-07 18:30:00)

[West9]

mastin2 has been prodded.

[mastin2]

What the hell, I was one of the last posters in here. >:(

[mastin2]

I'm kinda bored right now and realize that I probably should be doing game-stuff, but...

...Well, I really don't have much to say.

In a lot of ways, I'm kinda at a disadvantage. I can be asked about my content in the game, but that's only for a small fraction of the game, after two scum were already dead, and I've pretty much already said everything I can remember me having held back.

I can't however provide any real answer for my predecessor who was in the game for the majority OF the game.

Whereas Shadow has been here the full time, thus, can give answers for everything he's done. Meaning that no matter what, he's gonna have a better defense than I do.

I suppose I can look for evidence to build a case, though such activities are kind-of difficult given that I already know the answer, thus, I'm biased. (Basically, I lack objectivity.)

[mastin2]

Correction. Shaddow hasn't been here the whole game, so I guess that does even the playing field slightly, but I'm still at a disadvantage.

I'm looking at the early VCs and frankly I'd be voting me off of them.
Really, how the hell did I get to L-2 with no scum on my wagon?

[mastin2]

...AND Shadow was on the Aristo lynch while I wasn't.
Good GOD is there

any

way I can build an objective case for me being town?

I suppose I could argue that if this game were a repeat of Inorganic Chemistry, my actions would be different? But that's preeeeeeeeeetty weak.

[mastin2]

I'd bet that there's scum within the lurkers, namely Simple Hope, Firebringer, DonotTrustMe, and TheCow. <-- In order from most towny to most scummy.
Simple Hope has decent quality to his posts. Fire I just feel is being too obviiously dumbly antitown to be scum, but I would not be opposed to that lynch. Donut needs to do something, very likely lurkerscum.
TheCow just claims boredom but doesn't do anything about it. Claims his vote was to get things going, but never made any comments on what he gained from the momentum. The explanation for the Random vote disappearance is confusingly lackluster. I have not seen him do any sorting of anything in the game thus far other than that, and even it was just a "well, I was backwards in my thinking. Oh well."
VOTE: TheCow

I suppose there's this? I raised it as a point against Firebringer, but the name next to Firebringer on the list is Shaddow's slot, which was labeled lurkerscum and never brought up again.

(But I'd be lying if I said 263 looked like scum distancing. I happen to know it was, but objectively it looks like if anything scum defending me. )

[mastin2]

dupplins thoughs about fires not being killed makes sense
fire need to move his vote back somewhere useful
bella (or plot?) why do you have a strong town read on midget?
shadows posting has been good from my skim
wander single scum read feels off

I suppose you could consider this, but that'd probably be a stretch.

[mastin2]

If I have a chance, I plan to look at most people a lot more thoroughly soon.

Have you had a chance? I'm interested in hearing more about what you think regarding duppin and Wingback. (Well, everybody actually, but specifically those two).

Ika

- Now that you're back and have reads on people, why aren't you voting anybody? Specifically, why aren't you voting duppin?

so i am home. i havent read up much. does anyone want to give me a quit tibit? i might start isoing later

Ika - what do you think of the existing wagons, if nothing else?

There's these, I guess.

[mastin2]

Outta time for the moment, though it's not like I can think of much else to bring. (I checked shaddow's iso to see about the nightkills, and nothing stood out except maybe the possibility that Heartless et. al were killed for reads, not mason-hunting, but I haven't had the chance to go check and I'm not optimistic. For every piece showing Shaddow as scum, there's like two or three that suggest I could be scum.)

Put simply, Shaddow's got the better iso.
Aside from maybe tone? But that's not objective. I think there's been some elements where Shaddow's tone in hindsight is a scum giveaway (picked up a few in the iso), and I've been fairly town with mine, yet that's pretty subjective and biased.

I'm generally competent in lategame, but simply put I've been outplayed.
I've run out of ideas.

[mastin2]

Or not. Have more time than I thought. Though now...kinda wishing I didn't, 'cause now I see...

Yeah, I'm happy with vedith or randomidget.

...I'm dead.

[mastin2]

shaddow's kind of freaking me out but i'm tired of this day

Ugh. I'm feeling the same thing. x_x
UNVOTE:

I suppose I have this as a saving grace?

I mean, Heartless is a pretty accurate scumhunter. By now they know in the dead thread they were 3-for-3. (Drove Aristo, nailed ika, and this.)

[mastin2]

And looking at Wingback, I can't fathom the slightest idea of why he was killed. No offense intended to Wingback, but, uh...he kinda placed heavy suspicion on all three of the actual masons. And he clearly thought shaddow was one. He certainly didn't look like a mason, either.

I suppose that's a point in my favor, though? If I were scum, I'd have some idea of why Wingback was killed and could come up with it without being that suspicious.
Speaking of which, though, if I were scum I'd have never killed Wingback in the first place. Certainly not a mason, definitely didn't look particularly town, and if I were to nightkill a player blindly, it'd be players like Heartless (who did die admittedly, but before I got here at least?) and Rainbow who I know to be good. (Because my agenda as scum is to kill players who're good rather than waste time hunting for PRs which'll inevitably end up nightkilling suspicious VTs.)

[shaddowez]

Sorry for the delay, I hate real life sometimes.

Since mastin's not trying to cc, I obviously don't have to go through the ISO's to decide which of you to vote. However, it's still worth noting a couple of things.

Hindsight is 20/20, and defending/explaining a position after the fact is a lot easier than proactively doing it, and that's what a lot of mastin's posts seem to be.

mastin's first post with content, 822 talks a lot about the masons, even though she's saying they shouldn't bother claiming. She then mentions later, in 924, that she knew duppin was a mason before coming into the game.

I'm not great with VCA or NKA, but this sort of stuck out to me:

Well, that explains why Shadow wasn't the nightkill

Me (or my slot) was being scumread by quite a few people throughout the game. Rainbow was actually one of the more willing to lynch my slot, so scum!me would have been better off NKing them early on, rather than some of the other kills that were made (Wingback and Varian, primarily). If I somehow didn't get lynched, leaving me alive until lylo would be a good strategy.

I also don't know ika or Ari's meta for bussing, but neither of them voted random when that wagon was in lynch range.

Additionally, in 879 she lists out her four top town reads. She admits in 948 that she thought three of those four were masons, so lynching the others (FB and lalendra) and then NKing town could make sense. Another interesting note, duppin was the first night kill after mastin replaced in.

I obviously know what to do, and feel bad leaving this in Plot and Bella's hands, but that's where the power is now.

VOTE: mastin

[mastin2]

Additionally, in 879 she lists out her four top town reads. She admits in 948 that she thought three of those four were masons, so lynching the others (FB and lalendra) and then NKing town could make sense.

So if I was scum, why did I wait a night to do so? Why didn't I start with Rainbow and make my way through the four, or start with duppin the assured bet mason and work my way through the four?

Another interesting note, duppin was the first night kill after mastin replaced in.

Wrong. I was in the game when Wingback died. The vital question here then is...if I was scum, why would I nightkill of all people, Wingback?

Yeah, I don't read on policy when I'm town in case I get nightkilled, but as scum? I may FAKE not reading, but you can be assured that I most certainly would have known better than to off Wingback of all people.

[Rainbow Unicat]

Good morning! I'm not quite awake yet but I'm reading and listening. I wanted to see what the two of you would say/do with minimal interference from me, that's why I've been quiet these past few days and writing private notes instead of public thoughts. I'm glad that the two of you are active and engaging with the game. I'll start posting more too, now.

Mastina, you said that you thought/knew duppin was a mason based on the game that you reviewed but can you show me specifically what about his posts in the range page 32-33 led you to believe that he was a mason and not scum or a VT? His posts were:

Spoiler: 3 duppin posts

Alright I'm here.

@Shaddowez Do you honestly believe Aristo was bussing me? That's.. well.

His scum flip wasn't that surprising no. I had a slight town read on him day 1 and going in to day 2. I did however also state that his vote on me was pretty weird.

I'd really like to hear from Lalendra today.

@Shaddowez Do you honestly believe Aristo was bussing me? That's.. well.

What I

think

is that you were a slow moving wagon that didn't seem to have much traction, which let Ari put a vote there without much concern about actually lynching somebody while looking like he was doing something.
What I

know

is that despite the wagon on Ari yesterDay, you kept putting off discussion and were rather vague in your answers, and your vote never went on him.

The only thing giving me pause about putting my vote back on you is your vote being on Heartless the Day they were killed, because that's a whole lot of WIFOM I don't feel like getting into right now. I'm also looking to hear more from Lalendra, and will probably reserve my vote until I do.

He voted on me day 1 as well (well on my slot). There is no way we are aligned, no matter how hard you try to twist it.
No I never voted on him and you know exactly why because I explained it. I didn't like your vote on him and found it suspicious. Obviously irrelevant now due to his flip.

I believe the game is fairly simple at this point. I think there is at least one scum (possibly both) between ika, Firebringer and Lalendra.

And considering Lalendra voted on ika, I think I want to join that train first.

VOTE: ika

I'll have more questions for various people and will reread more after coffee and stuff probably.

It will be at least a few days before I'm ready to vote (especially because my hydra partner is v/la, but also because I don't know who to vote for yet and as much as I want this to be over, I still want to do my best.)

--P

[mastin2]

Embarrassingly enough, I thought it was him talking to his partner, shaddowez.
So, uh. Right for the wrong reasons?

Remember, I figured the masons as (in order) duppin-shaddow-wanderer, with you as a VT who knew them but was conftown for not having killed them in spite of knowing them.
I mean, reading it

now

, I don't know how I could've thought that, since that's not what it says at all, but at the time, I thought it was?

[Rainbow Unicat]

Ok, I can't think of why you'd say at the time that you knew duppin was a mason based on those 3 posts if you didn't believe him to be masons with shaddowez, so that checks out. I think you know that I'd be alert for signs of knowing more about the game state that you're supposed to.

Why weren't you paranoid of me when I quickly added you to the townbloc right after your subbing in?

--P

[Rainbow Unicat]

In n1615, I left a friend of mine alive until LYLO, even though (or perhaps because) I looked up to and respected him a lot as a player. I could have nightkilled him early because I was fairly sure he'd catch me eventually since I was still a newb and it was my very first time being scum and he was one of my mafia crushes. The tracker was outed on day 1 but he was townreading me and my buddy and there was little chance he'd get a guilty so I could have killed my friend then, but I didn't. And then after I killed the PRs I still could have killed him before LYLO, but I killed one of the obvtown newbies instead. I wanted to see if he could catch me. My win would mean so much more to me, if the person I respected didn't catch me. The newb I killed would have voted anybody but me for sure. It was risky. But I did win and it was awesome.

Bella is pretty sure that one of the reasons we weren't nightkilled early on (aside from how badly I fell on my arse on day 1 with the preflip associatives between 3 VTs, but I do think it's been pretty clear along that I've been an uncounterclaimed mason all this time), is that ika likes us and wanted us alive while he was alive to keep the game fun for him. And then after ika died it did become clear that I'm having an off game and was unlikely to recover. But also I've been having flickers of paranoia that mastin might be doing to me what I did to my friend in n1615.

I don't really know what to do about that aside from mentally drafting an apology note to my friend.

Maybe it's just something I'm telling myself to make me feel better about being conftown still alive 5 day phases after I claimed because of my townbeard status.

But it's okay. I'm starting to see some signs of the old Plotinus, one I haven't seen since July sometime, the Plotinus who was happy most of the time and could string thoughts together coherently and was wrong less often than I have been lately.

Been reading through a bit. For most of the game I'd been so focused on how appallingly wrong about everything that I was being that I neglected to notice that other people were also wrong sometimes. I was only right about 1 slot (varian's. and ika's once he started lurking but that's pretty obvious), but I spent most of the game thinking that everybody but me was right about everything and that's...not true. It sounds obvious but it's kind of like waking from a fog for me.

I do have plenty of people that I want to apologise to in the endgame for my behaviour but that can wait until after LYLO.

--P

[mastin2]

[quote="In post 972, Rainbow Unicat"Why weren't you paranoid of me when I quickly added you to the townbloc right after your subbing in?[/quote] Honestly don't remember. Depends on what I was seeing. (So basically, it's not so much that I don't remember, so much as it is there are two mutually exclusive memories and I'm not sure which was the real one and which is the one that I mistakenly implanted in its place.)

I either looked at you and held some caution but was placing you fairly low on the suspicion list, or I looked at you and thought you were a VT who knew the masons and thus must be town. In either case, I'd have no reason to be suspicious of you, so the end result is the same, it's just that I don't remember which of the two it was.

To put it another way: your actions never really entered my mind as being likely scum. I'm

pretty

sure I considered it at least once, but took a quick look and ended up dismissing it as being incredibly unlikely or even impossible.

ika likes us and wanted us alive while he was alive to keep the game fun for him.

Can confirm this is true of him.

But also I've been having flickers of paranoia that mastin might be doing to me what I did to my friend in n1615.

Well while I'd be lying to say I don't get intense pleasure out of fooling friends (see also, Inorganic and fooling Nacho/LC albeit feeling guilty when doing so), I'm also a highly-pragmatic scum player. Generally, the most pragmatic kills are on players of high skill, even those who're having an "off" game, because what's to say that all of a sudden they won't flip a switch and suddenly be right on point? It's my greatest fear as scum. I prefer to kill off the players who are my friends, even if they townread me. They die townreading me, it helps my image. They die scumreading me, well, nobody does NKA anyway so that's a burden off my back.

I do have plenty of people that I want to apologise to in the endgame for my behaviour but that can wait until after LYLO.

No kiddin'. I basically owe the whole town an apology if you vote me.
But none moreso than Firebringer and Lalendra. I mean, the apology's there for the others, for not picking up on them being right (Heartless), for not being able to make a stronger case for me being town, but it's much moreso to those two because of being directly responsible for mislynching them and not even considering another candidate was possible.

[quote="In post 972, Rainbow Unicat"Why weren't you paranoid of me when I quickly added you to the townbloc right after your subbing in?[/quote] Honestly don't remember. Depends on what I was seeing. (So basically, it's not so much that I don't remember, so much as it is there are two mutually exclusive memories and I'm not sure which was the real one and which is the one that I mistakenly implanted in its place.)

I either looked at you and held some caution but was placing you fairly low on the suspicion list, or I looked at you and thought you were a VT who knew the masons and thus must be town. In either case, I'd have no reason to be suspicious of you, so the end result is the same, it's just that I don't remember which of the two it was.

To put it another way: your actions never really entered my mind as being likely scum. I'm

pretty

sure I considered it at least once, but took a quick look and ended up dismissing it as being incredibly unlikely or even impossible.