Maybe you NKed him to say this exact thing right now.In post 749, Looker wrote:I'm also curious as to why I would NK Andres, the only other person on the kennyk wagon, instead of killing someone on the DkKoba wagon and leaving doubt/mystery between myself and Andres, especially if I'd been suspecting him already. It just doesn't make sense.
That's some gaslighting right there - I had to go back and look at my own voting pattern D1 through fresh eyes to see if that description, as uncharitable as it is, could ever reasonably describe it. It doesn't. What's going on here? Are you confusing me with someone else? Are you trying to suggest I am scum who worked as hard as I could to get my partner limmed D1? In any case, why would my voting pattern on D1 change how I viewed how suspicious or otherwise I would find your progression on a slot on D2?In post 748, Looker wrote:You of all people because you voteparked DkKoba then jumped off when [their] wagon started to gain traction, only to make sure you were in the exact middle of [their] wagon when it went through
I am repeating myself because I still don't have an answer. There is no spin here. It's exactly what happened with Koba - I had a slight suspicion about something said or done, asked a sensible question about it, and instead of an answer, got shade and evasion in return. I'll ask again, because the more times I have to keep asking without getting an answer, the more I think you don't have one.In post 748, Looker wrote:And you're reiterating yourself by quoting my answer and then asking the same question again, seemingly injecting spin.
In post 748, Looker wrote:"Implications of idiocy" is inaccurate appeal to emotion
In post 743, Looker wrote:The "you better tell me now" requires an eye roll and this entire push is weird coming from you of all people.
Yeah. OK.In post 748, Looker wrote:Are you ESL?
Spite for what? I do see an oppotunity to vote a slot I think is most likely flipping scum here, and by a good margin. The only other slot I am concerned about at this point is fixer, and that's largely because they were absent enough that I don't really enough to have a handle on his alignment - but none what I have seen hasn't really pinged me as scummy; null, rather than scum, whereas Looker has pinged me as scummy and I think our interactions today are a clear indications as to why. I make no appologies for starting with a scummy slot over a null one.In post 748, Looker wrote:You're either voting out of spite or opportunism, but it's not going to end well for town.
No, it doesn't, this one I give you. Andres is someone I would have looked at for Koba's partner if he were still alive. The problem is, I don't think it makes sense coming from ANY partner, so it doesn't really stand to help convict or clear anyone, and perhaps that was the point. I don't agree with MBot that his final statement made him look town, but if others would have given him towncred for it, perhaps there is some truth there. Certainly I would buy that explaination before I brought that the NKs were calculated specifically to troll you, or whatever you were trying to tell us in your first post of the day.In post 749, Looker wrote:I'm also curious as to why I would NK Andres, the only other person on the kennyk wagon, instead of killing someone on the DkKoba wagon and leaving doubt/mystery between myself and Andres, especially if I'd been suspecting him already. It just doesn't make sense.
I respect your troll of returning my WIFOM sentiment to me. Is this your serious assessment of what's taking place right now? I'm curious regarding your conviction.In post 750, kennyk wrote:Maybe you NKed him to say this exact thing right now.In post 749, Looker wrote:I'm also curious as to why I would NK Andres, the only other person on the kennyk wagon, instead of killing someone on the DkKoba wagon and leaving doubt/mystery between myself and Andres, especially if I'd been suspecting him already. It just doesn't make sense.
In post 751, MBot wrote:I believe that I already mentioned that I saw Andres NK as a way to eliminate someone who looked very town with his last statement. I can't imagine why mafia would make that kind of statement about Koba if they knew Koba was going down as fellow scum. Too big brained to consider that mafia staged that to give them TC for the next day.
I don't really see it as that big-brained.In post 631, Andresvmb wrote:If Koba flips Town though, as I suspect they will, then some of you actually need to pay attention to what they’ve said.
First off, you're right - I wasn't familiar with DkKoba's pronouns. I'm sorry. Secondly...In post 753, Val89 wrote:That's some gaslighting right there - I had to go back and look at my own voting pattern D1 through fresh eyes to see if that description, as uncharitable as it is, could ever reasonably describe it. It doesn't. What's going on here? Are you confusing me with someone else? Are you trying to suggest I am scum who worked as hard as I could to get my partner limmed D1? In any case, why would my voting pattern on D1 change how I viewed how suspicious or otherwise I would find your progression on a slot on D2?In post 748, Looker wrote:You of all people because you voteparked DkKoba then jumped off when [their] wagon started to gain traction, only to make sure you were in the exact middle of [their] wagon when it went through
Fourth time answering: I had suspicions of scum, T3 wasn't one of the suspicions. If he's not scum and there are no third parties, he's town. I'd been wrong about Andres, nobody was budging on T3's wagon before the holiday - I compromised.In post 753, Val89 wrote:I am repeating myself because I still don't have an answer. There is no spin here. It's exactly what happened with Koba - I had a slight suspicion about something said or done, asked a sensible question about it, and instead of an answer, got shade and evasion in return. I'll ask again, because the more times I have to keep asking without getting an answer, the more I think you don't have one.In post 748, Looker wrote:And you're reiterating yourself by quoting my answer and then asking the same question again, seemingly injecting spin.
If I am misconstruing your answer, and the reason you listed T3 as town in 677 isnotbecause you already had 3 scumreads; why were you townreading T3 at that point? What had changed by the end of the day that you you were prepared to hammer a townread of yours, and to do so even without a claim? I think those are sensible and reasonable questions to ask, no?
Emphasizing your rudeness is not calling you an idiot. There are several players on this site that are ESL - communication is obfuscated because of this, but they are not inferior. They're not "idiots".In post 753, Val89 wrote:In post 748, Looker wrote:"Implications of idiocy" is inaccurate appeal to emotionIn post 743, Looker wrote:The "you better tell me now" requires an eye roll and this entire push is weird coming from you of all people.Yeah. OK.In post 748, Looker wrote:Are you ESL?
In post 753, Val89 wrote:Spite for what? I do see an oppotunity to vote a slot I think is most likely flipping scum here, and by a good margin. The only other slot I am concerned about at this point is fixer, and that's largely because they were absent enough that I don't really enough to have a handle on his alignment - but none what I have seen hasn't really pinged me as scummy; null, rather than scum, whereas Looker has pinged me as scummy and I think our interactions today are a clear indications as to why. I make no appologies for starting with a scummy slot over a null one.In post 748, Looker wrote:You're either voting out of spite or opportunism, but it's not going to end well for town.
I'm eliminating Mbot and Kenny from my PoE completely. I'll tell you this for free - if I ever get to the stage that my mere appearence in a game is enough to have other players call me 'obvtown', openly sheeping my reads, and even having other slots telling people it would be better to mislim a town PR than me, and that other players opinion matters less and everyone would be a better player if they just stopped thinking for themselves and followed what I was doing, as Andres did twice; all while being as openly scummy as Koba was D1, I abolsutely fucking guarentee you I would not use that power to point the finger at my own partner, under any circumstances.
I fail to see how any sensible player would, and while I don't understand how Koba got to that point, I really don't think it was by throwing games and playing against their win condition. I think I would have to see examples of where Koba did such a anti-wincon thing previously before I could even consider the possiblity that we are looking at kennyk or Mbot. Scum there doesn't make any sense to me.
It was to highlight the pattern. That it hasn't been discussed hasn't been overlooked.In post 753, Val89 wrote:No, it doesn't, this one I give you. Andres is someone I would have looked at for Koba's partner if he were still alive. The problem is, I don't think it makes sense coming from ANY partner, so it doesn't really stand to help convict or clear anyone, and perhaps that was the point. I don't agree with MBot that his final statement made him look town, but if others would have given him towncred for it, perhaps there is some truth there. Certainly I would buy that explaination before I brought that the NKs were calculated specifically to troll you, or whatever you were trying to tell us in your first post of the day.In post 749, Looker wrote:I'm also curious as to why I would NK Andres, the only other person on the kennyk wagon, instead of killing someone on the DkKoba wagon and leaving doubt/mystery between myself and Andres, especially if I'd been suspecting him already. It just doesn't make sense.
In post 755, MBot wrote:I've wrote this out 3 times and kept hitting the back button to check posts on mobile. Grr. I'm keeping my tinfoil hat in the back of the closet where it belongs for now so
Val was too genuinely frustrated at Kobas play. Even through the frustration, they always had good posts that didn't feel like BS.
Kenny is a thumbs up based on interactions, where pressure came from, and where it didn't.
Fixer was at the bottom of my reads but I can't find a post that even hints at scumminess.
I dont like Lookers posts and it reminds me of trying to interact with Koba. They hammered the vote on T3 which I didn't vote for because I didn't see it over Looker/Fixer suspicions.
I went meta diving, which was fun, and my bet is on Looker for today.
In post 760, Val89 wrote:One of us has fucked up the timeline here, Looker, and I'm pretty sure it's not me. Koba was the D1 flip. Andres was the N1 NK.
You townread Mbot, T3 and me (in that order); and scumread fixer and (yeezys or kennyk) in a spoiler labeled "At the risk of WIFOM pending a miselim" ([/post]677[/post]).
Those reads were given when Andres was dead. It was not "your first post of the game when scum hadn't flipped". It was early on D2, post Koba and Andres flips. If you are trying to tell us you labeled T3 as town purely because you already had decided yeezys, kennyk and/or fixer were more suspicous, but had no actual reason to townread him apart from that, then I say again, that's the same as saying "I already had too many scumreads." If you had no reason to townread T3, but no reason to think them scummy either, then that puts them null, but that's not what you did - you gave T3 as your second strongest townread, behind only Mbot.
So your concern is that everyone jumping on T3 gave me pause? Everyone including those I'd expressed suspicions of? Or that I was asking questions and looking for patterns D1 to sort?In post 760, Val89 wrote:From my point of view, I am seeing a a player who was townreading, exclusively, a slot that everyone else thought (and for good reason), had excellent chances to be Koba's partner. Yeezys and Kenny voted for T3 fairly early in the day. Fixer told us, between those votes, that they would have voted T3, but miscounted and thought they were hammering if they did so (post 664, 670). Mbot publically endorsed a T3 lim in 709.
You were the only person to come out and say that you thought T3 was town, but you gave no reasons for doing so at the time. In fact, earlier on D1, when you scumread Andres, you gave "On 2 E-2 wagons" as a reason for doing so, and pointed out that "Each time followed by ssbm_Kyouko (T3)"; but you decided Andres was scummy, and T3 was town? You then hammered T3 without a claim over two days before the deadline because you "compromised". I've been asking you the question, because the lone, unexplained early D2 townread, followed by the willingness to hammer what turned out to be a scummy acting VT without a claim looks very much like TMI.
Is your issue that I differentiated between you, T3 and MBot? The same way I differentiated between kennyk, yeezys and fixer...?In post 760, Val89 wrote:If you had no reason to townread T3, but no reason to think them scummy either, then that puts them null, but that's not what you did - you gave T3 as your second strongest townread, behind only Mbot.
I think I've been clear what my issue is. You gave T3 as your second strongest townread early on D2, but can give no other reason why you did other than you suspected other people. Is that the same reason you were townreading Mbot? Me?In post 762, Looker wrote:Is your issue that I differentiated between you, T3 and MBot? The same way I differentiated between kennyk, yeezys and fixer...?
![:]](./images/smilies/icon_smiling.png "Cheerful Smile"){kind=icon}
In post 765, MBot wrote:Looker, it would be a lot easier if you throw out your current reads and try being a town player? I thought town going down would try to help with a town win regardless of their mislim. How about more complete thoughts and less quotes that leave me scratching my head wondering what your point actually is?
I still don't understand Val89's case...or anyone's. I think Val's is hinging on why I didn't put Val, T3, and MBot as "null" instead of town (which is his playstyle preference), and everyone else is operating off of survivalism at this point.In post 757, Looker wrote:
- You weren't voting anyone. Even if you had suspicions, you weren't acting on them.
Another interesting coincidence. Fixer only posts when you vote him, and immediately after as if he's watching the thread. That wasn't even a whole hour between posts.In post 768, fixer wrote:IM SO SORRY SCHOOL HAS HAD ME IN A CHOKEHOLD FOR A BIT
( last post was not at a very good time as you can see;;;; )
making the ISO right after this post but as a small insight before that, I also do think that Looker is the game over here if I put aside my kenny null read, I realized they were more towny then I thought when I skimmed through d1 a bit ago
quoting commences!
Give me more time, there's some more stuff I need to do.In post 770, kennyk wrote:One suspect posted and no further info is gained. The promised quotes aren't there yet and I doubt they are coming soon.
I am still waiting for looker to post.
It is true that I haven't made a wallpost listing every last thing I find scummy about you, largely because fixer has promised to tell us why he is scumreading you and, while he may have gueniue activity problems, the more this keeps going on, the more I think he may potentially be deliberately dodging doing so. I don't want to make my wallpost and then have fixer just come along and say "yeah, what Val said".In post 772, Looker wrote:I still don't understand Val89's case...or anyone's. I think Val's is hinging on why I didn't put Val, T3, and MBot as "null" instead of town (which is his playstyle preference)
First, I totally agree with the arguments given in this post (Or in short: "yeah, what Val said"In post 773, Val89 wrote:It is true that I haven't made a wallpost listing every last thing I find scummy about you, largely because fixer has promised to tell us why he is scumreading you and, while he may have gueniue activity problems, the more this keeps going on, the more I think he may potentially be deliberately dodging doing so. I don't want to make my wallpost and then have fixer just come along and say "yeah, what Val said".In post 772, Looker wrote:I still don't understand Val89's case...or anyone's. I think Val's is hinging on why I didn't put Val, T3, and MBot as "null" instead of town (which is his playstyle preference)
I've said a few times now, this part of my case that we are discussing - your D2 progression on T3 - is something I did not understand, something I consideredcouldbe scum indicative, but also I could be misunderstanding something, so I asked you about it. As I say, it's not the only concern I have with you, or your predecessor slot for that matter, but I was asking about that because it is something I thought you could clear up for me if it wasn't scum indicative - but ISTILLdon't understand what you are trying to tell us.
If I quote the post it loses the colours. It's at 677. I am sure everyone has already seen it several times already. You use 3 different colours, as well as listing everyone individually except the final two, who occupy the same line "X or Y". Are you telling us that Val, T3, and MBot were all actually "null" reads for you, and it's a playstyle thing to call them townreads, and put them in a list that looks ordered but isn't, without explanation?
I don't think my issue here is difficult to understand. It looks very much like you made a readslist, and it appears you did so in response to pressure on your own slot, that was representing to us that you were following the game, you had townreads of varying strengths (with the unwritten assumption that there were reasons for those townreads other than simply knowing they were town), you didn't agree with everyone else's assessment on T3 because you had actual, proper reasons to be townreading there - but following that, then made little or no effort to tell the rest of us that you thought T3 was flipping town because X reasons, while he was being run up by everyone else. Once T3 hit E-1 (with that E-1 vote coming from someone you had the bottom of your readlist), you hammered him, without a claim, with a decent amount of time on the clock, casting that hammer vote in the same post as answering questions directed towards you (Ie: while a discussion about your own slot was still ongoing), and have told us today that T3 didn't say or do anything to change your read, you simply did so because that was the majority consensus.
When questioned about it today, you haven't been able to give us a single reason you were townreading T3 other than you found other players scummy, nor explain any of your other behavior around it in a way that makes me think this wasn't a scumplay. Yes, the 'hammer without a claim' thing is such an openly dodgy thing to do, I have asked myself if a lone scum would draw attention to themselves in such a way, but then I remember that this was a game in which Koba was acting the way they were D1 and getting 'obvtown'ed for it. I also think that perhaps you decided the utility in shutting down the conversation I was trying to start yesterday about that this very readslist overrode any such issues.
The fact that is does appear to me like you were trying to shut down that conversation (as well as one Mbot was trying to have about the makeup of your ISO) is a big part of why I'm coming back to this over and over again and trying to make sure it doesn't get lost, frankly.
; Sorry, but I had to make that one).One thing I think is interesting about the clolours, is that there are actually 5 of them (They are numbered 00ff00, 00c400, 00a800, E00000 and Ff0000), allthough they look to me as being three different colours to me, too.