Newbie 2077 : The Curse of a Blue Diamond!! - Gameover

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: kennyk

Using dice to vote? Pretty sus, as the kids say. True randomness is completely unhelpful, and y'know who likes being unhelpful? THE MAFIA!

[Radical Rat]

Same deal for Uranus, but he gets a pass for now because of the Sonic avatar.

[Radical Rat]

And as I just read in Radical Rats posts while watching the preview to this post: As far as I read in the wiki and was usual in the days long gone by random voting to get things started on day one is quite common. Voting (or not voting) for someone because of his avatar is even more sus in my opinion.

It is true that random voting is common. However, there's a difference between an arbitrary vote made without a serious reason, and a TRULY random vote. RVS votes and behavior can provide useful insight into how a slot is approaching the game, and later on can be an important part of a more substantial case. True randomness does not convey such information.

[Radical Rat]

As far as it being more sus to not vote Uranus over the avatar... I mean, you both did the same thing but I can't vote both of you, so....

[Radical Rat]

I don't want to get too into a theory debate on this, but the way I look at it, the point of RVS is to generate information. None of the votes should be taken super seriously, especially not the first first votes, but the justifications people make up for their votes can occasionally have meaning, particularly later on. It's not a lot, but it provides

something

to work with, especially if a random vote gets mistaken for a serious vote. But blindly following a dice roll removes most of that, at least if you announce that's what you did.
Of course, there is always the possibility of faking true randomness, but if your claim is to be believed, you might as well have just not voted at all.

[Radical Rat]

In any case...

VOTE: floo

And I do mean this one.

[Radical Rat]

In any case...

VOTE: floo

And I do mean this one.

I don't like the naked vote, especially as the second vote on kenny. The smiley is great fun, got a hearty chortle out of me, but also I want words out of 'em.

[Radical Rat]

catboi siteflaked, this is so sad

According to OP, he at least confirmed his role PM (Name's bold on the player list).

[Radical Rat]

Honestly, I think kenny's Town. I see where you're coming from with the LAMIST thing, but it reads as genuine to me, mostly just gut vibes though.

[Radical Rat]

this reminds me: you can go ahead and look at my profile: i have exactly one game that's completely finished from about a month ago, and i think it's a good indicator of what I usually do as town. i died on the first night, though. i guess it was for being too friendly [sarcastic tone]
was kind of a dick in that game to be honest

This is a bad post though. Self meta doesn't work, because if you know your meta, you can manipulate it. Maybe if it's to refute a specific claim, but unprompted like this? Just reads real fishy. Especially the bit about getting killed for being a dick.

Maybe you really were a dick, but in the context of this game it reads like you're trying to set it up as if you play the same it means you're Town again, but if you slip up and act differently, it's just because you're trying to be nicer and/or live longer.

[Radical Rat]

I don't really consider trying new things to be meta manipulation, I meant more like picking out certain tendencies and attitudes to attempt to replicate as scum. Which is what it reads like you were setting yourself up for.

And I don't really see the general statement of new players not having much established history/reputation as a specific claim about you that necessitated refutation, so I didn't consider it relevant enough to include in the quote.

I can somewhat understand where you're coming from here, but it still feels off to me. It just reads too much like scum trying to cover their bases, with a sprinkling of AtE for good measure.

[Radical Rat]

i do kind of want to live longer though, maybe if i leave this post here the wind will carry it to Entellian and Radical Rat

What is "it" here? Dying early?

If so, rude >B(

[Radical Rat]

We do have material to work with now though. While it is true that we don't have any flips or PR results, we do have enough people making serious enough posts that you probably have some kind of feelings about things.

Daystart can be a bit odd if you're used to nightstart, so I totally get your hesitation, but don't be afraid to push on things that seem off, even if it's not super strong yet. Aside from catboi, has anything stood out to you?

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: kennyk

RIP my townread on you.
I'm glad cows pushed you on the @all thing, I ignored it thinking it was just a poorly executed joke. But if it was meant as a response to expected suspicion... That feels more like scum paranoia than town paranoia.

I believe this is E-2.

[Radical Rat]

before I think further on the kenny situation, what does E-2 mean?

Elimination -2
If two more people vote for him, he gets eliminated.

Generally considered good form to announce E-2 and E-1, so that no one accidentally hammers early.

[Radical Rat]

UNVOTE:

To be clear, my vote stands in spirit. I just don't want scum quickhammering before anyone else gets to weigh in here.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so, here's my problem.

A prod post is, usually, profoundly NAI. If anything, it might just BARELY lean Town, because Mafia benefits from Town lurking, and are thus less likely to bring it up, but it usually isn't that deep.

This particular kind of overthinking though I believe is vastly more likely to come from scum than town. I don't really see a Townie being afraid that trying to prod a lurker would look scummy, and if they did I don't see them making a big show about it, probably, but not necessarily, just PMing it instead.

However, by your own admission, you did it publicly hoping to gain towncred off it, but then got too paranoid about it backfiring that you wound up overexplaining yourself. That's scum logic if ya ask me.

[Radical Rat]

Also
@Uranus

Whenever you put someone at E-1, please announce it as such. Don't want someone coming along, not properly reading, deciding to hop on the wagon, and hammering early. And you don't want to give scum a potential defense for doing it on purpose.

[Radical Rat]

From a general point of view there are (as I see it) four different setups regarding the connection between Entellian and me that matter concerning my prod demand (btw. the prodding didn't happen yet).:
1. We are both mafia.
2. We are both mason.
3. I am mafia, he is not.
4. I am town but not co-mason to him.

To 1.: I would definitely have PMed the mod about the prod. No one else seems to miss Entellian so why should I point it out in public and draw a connection between us. Yes this argument could be turned into the opposit: Because I knew I could always claim this, I did make it public to look town.
To 2.: This scenario is an even more PM one. Not only would a public prod post make the other townies sus of Entellian and me being scum. It might even get mafia to think, that we might be masons and therefor a viable nightkill.

To 3.: A setup in which public posting might be an option. It might look townish to be concerned about another potential towny not posting. On the other hand it can easily backfire.
To 4.: I definitely don't know what role Entellian has in this scenario. As in setup 3 it might look townish or scummy depending on what the others believe.

Emphasis mine, this is what I interpreted to be your reason for posting publicly, which is, in both scenarios where you do this, "It might look townish." I'm not really sure how else to read this.

[Radical Rat]

So again someone is suggesting it is better to contribute little to nothing to the game than trying to lay out thought processes. You all know who benefits from less talk and information.

This is NOT what's happening here. I'm saying your particular thought processes are scummy, not the fact that you shared them.

[Radical Rat]

People I'd like to hear from before putting my vote back:

Salsa (V/LA should be up today)
catboi
Entellian himself (though that may not be possible...)

And everyone else, of course, but those are the main ones.

[Radical Rat]

People don't usually lie about their meta as either alignment in my experience. I've heard/seen people use self meta to say they are playing the same way as they do as Town, but it's a rare occurrence that people say they are purposely deviating from their Town meta. I'd say more often this is Rand>W.

Sorry, what does Rand>W mean here?

[Radical Rat]

i think the dug holes are there regardless of your alignment. radical's intending to put the vote back with no regard to how you reacted at E-2 and even E-1 briefly, meaning that i think that they are holding on to their biases way too much. of course i don't believe that they're intent on murdering you this early, but the information feels like just the right amount to say "oh shoot, my evidence was flimsy wasn't it. moving on"

Oh, I have plenty of regard for those reactions. I'm just thoroughly unconvinced. And yeah, that may be partially confbiased, but well. Biased or not, I can't not see scum there right now.

I've made my case, and I don't really have much else to add to it at present.

[Radical Rat]

I absolutely agree with you, that hearing their point of view would be good. But why not from Save the Dragons (I just noticed that using just the first letters of those three words is no good way to shorten his name) or floo? They didn't respond to this matter either.

Forgot to answer this, but well. I do of course want to hear from everyone, but I want(ed) to hear from Salsa and catboi because I trust them. And Entellian because my read on him could affect my read on you, so I want interaction there.

StD and floo, I'm unsure on alignment-wise, but I don't see anything there changing my scumread on you, so it doesn't matter as much right now to me.

[Radical Rat]

Why am I RC

[Radical Rat]

I absolutely agree with you, that hearing their point of view would be good. But why not from Save the Dragons (I just noticed that using just the first letters of those three words is no good way to shorten his name) or floo? They didn't respond to this matter either.

Forgot to answer this, but well. I do of course want to hear from everyone, but I want(ed) to hear from Salsa and catboi because I trust them. And Entellian because my read on him could affect my read on you, so I want interaction there.

StD and floo, I'm unsure on alignment-wise, but I don't see anything there changing my scumread on you, so it doesn't matter as much right now to me.

That explanation is satisfying in my eyes. But it leads to another question from me.

The Entellian part is totally understandable. As does your null read on StD and floo. But why do you trust Salsa and trusted catboi?

Well, Salsa's been engaging in a way that felt very genuine to me, and while I think her "too solvy" take was a bad one, she did end up being right about you. Her tunneling you D1 doesn't really make sense if you're both scum, so my scumread on you translates to a townread on her.

Catboi was more gut tbh, just felt the Town vibes there. Lickety's posting has done nothing but reinforce that feeling, even if I disagree on things there.

[Radical Rat]

Speaking of disagreeing with LQ...

I think you're reading too much into the StD thing. I don't really think there's anything particularly scummy about being confused by your somewhat jumpy logic here.

[Radical Rat]

i didn't really like that they were waiting for somebody else to do the pushing. to me, it feels less like "CLSR said something very convincing" and more like "CLSR seems ready to push a townie, let's help them" and then when they seem to pay not that much attention to what kennyk has been saying (i think everything he's saying is towny enough) i do not see their towny intentions

This is not what happened.

You pushed on something I chose to write off as a joke, then kenny's explanation showed that I was wrong about it being a joke, and set off all my scum alarms.

It is true that without your push, I probably wouldn't be on kenny right now. It is not true that I was following you saying "something convincing," which doesn't even make sense considering you accepted their explanation as Town, and I did not.

It is also not true that I'm not paying attention to what he's saying. In fact, I actually believe

most

of his explanation. I just think that's a Scum mindset, and not a Town mindset, which I thought I'd made pretty clear...

[Radical Rat]

I think Radical is probably for later

and yeah rn salsa isn't really looking good as his responses to the posts are pretty weak and he seem to be slipping up more than Radical.

VOTE: Salsa

Is it E-2 or 2 votes to elimination?

I absolutely agree with you, that hearing their point of view would be good. But why not from Save the Dragons (I just noticed that using just the first letters of those three words is no good way to shorten his name) or floo? They didn't respond to this matter either.

Forgot to answer this, but well. I do of course want to hear from everyone, but I want(ed) to hear from Salsa and catboi because I trust them.

Don't tell me it’s a buddy attempt

I'd prefer to think of it as a townblock attempt.

[Radical Rat]

Yes, I agree with you on this but my experience here is holding me back tbh. A wagon which is formatting without strong resistance (specially on Day 1) has much more chance to flip as town rather than scum fmpov + they also are an old player. Even if I think

Entel

is their scum partner, hence no other wagon is formed and no resistance is formatting at the current wagon, as an experienced one, scum!

kenny

could be play the whole thing differently imo.

I didn't respond to this earlier because I expected you to see the resistance when you finished catching up, but it looks like you still believe it, so... How do you consider this no resistance? From my perspective, it felt like we were getting close to a consensus scumread, then hit a brick wall as blatant scumposting ended up being townread somehow.

[Radical Rat]

I absolutely agree with you, that hearing their point of view would be good. But why not from Save the Dragons (I just noticed that using just the first letters of those three words is no good way to shorten his name) or floo? They didn't respond to this matter either.

Forgot to answer this, but well. I do of course want to hear from everyone, but I want(ed) to hear from Salsa and catboi because I trust them.

Don't tell me it’s a buddy attempt

I'd prefer to think of it as a townblock attempt.

That first quote shouldn't have been there, my bad.

[Radical Rat]

I think Radical is probably for later

and yeah rn salsa isn't really looking good as his responses to the posts are pretty weak and he seem to be slipping up more than Radical.

VOTE: Salsa

Is it E-2 or 2 votes to elimination?

What, specifically, is Salsa "slipping up" on to you?

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: kennyk
Keeping this on E-2.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: kennyk
Keeping this on E-2.

Nevermind, I forgot Salsa unvoted.


I may need a nap...

[Radical Rat]

rr why do you trust salsa

Because her posting has consistently read as genuine scumhunting, and while I was initially iffy about her kenny tunneling, after coming to my own conclusion that kenny is almost certainly scum, her being there first reinforces that townlean into a firmer townread.

[Radical Rat]

i think the dug holes are there regardless of your alignment. radical's intending to put the vote back with no regard to how you reacted at E-2 and even E-1 briefly, meaning that i think that they are holding on to their biases way too much. of course i don't believe that they're intent on murdering you this early, but the information feels like just the right amount to say "oh shoot, my evidence was flimsy wasn't it. moving on"

Oh, I have plenty of regard for those reactions. I'm just thoroughly unconvinced. And yeah, that may be partially confbiased, but well. Biased or not, I can't not see scum there right now.

I've made my case, and I don't really have much else to add to it at present.

hmm, what doesn't interest you about their reactions? i'd be expecting a little bit more flail than what they have shown

Nearly everything about this situation has continued to just read like scum brand thinking. The lack of flailing I actually consider a point against him, albeit a minor one. I think Town is more likely to get upset over false accusations than Scum is over correct accusations.

[Radical Rat]

rr why do you trust salsa

Because her posting has consistently read as genuine scumhunting, and while I was initially iffy about her kenny tunneling, after coming to my own conclusion that kenny is almost certainly scum, her being there first reinforces that townlean into a firmer townread.

is she your scumpartner

Is she yours?

[Radical Rat]

I do. I was being facetious.

[Radical Rat]

i think the dug holes are there regardless of your alignment. radical's intending to put the vote back with no regard to how you reacted at E-2 and even E-1 briefly, meaning that i think that they are holding on to their biases way too much. of course i don't believe that they're intent on murdering you this early, but the information feels like just the right amount to say "oh shoot, my evidence was flimsy wasn't it. moving on"

Oh, I have plenty of regard for those reactions. I'm just thoroughly unconvinced. And yeah, that may be partially confbiased, but well. Biased or not, I can't not see scum there right now.

I've made my case, and I don't really have much else to add to it at present.

hmm, what doesn't interest you about their reactions? i'd be expecting a little bit more flail than what they have shown

Nearly everything about this situation has continued to just read like scum brand thinking. The lack of flailing I actually consider a point against him, albeit a minor one. I think Town is more likely to get upset over false accusations than Scum is over correct accusations.

So you are saying I should have run around and crying 'Mom! Mom! They are calling me Names'? (Yes this is way over the top, but I guess you know what I mean) In that case the argument could have been 'Oh look how easy to upset he is! He must be scum'.
And it is really hard to upset me in forum mafia. I generally try not to be too emotional while writing texts. And it is no exception in mafia.

No, I'm not saying you "should" have done that. Most of the time, getting upset at wagons is more of a personal thing, but in my experience it is somewhat more likely to come from frustrated Town.

Note that I said it was a minor point, and never brought it up in my main arguments against you, only when directly asked by cows why I didn't think you being calm meant you were Town.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: kennyk
Keeping this on E-2.

This is really bad.

Not at all. His vote is quite interesting. Not the fact he voted me. That was to be expected. His mind was made up about me.

What really strikes me as odd is the timing. A few minutes after salsa got the E-2 he revoted me with the (false) E-2 warning. This could be an attempt to get a counterwagon going.

For me this looks very suspicious (yes I sus people again) to vote against this duo. But as I promised I will get a night of sleep first.

Does Scum really fight someone saying a vote on them is bad as Scum? I mean, maybe, but more often Rand>V.

Did you uh... Read the post by any chance?

[Radical Rat]

Vote Count 1-6

Save The Dragons

:

floo

: , kennyk

Entellian

:

kennyk

: floo,

Uranus

: ,

cowsloveSushirolls

:Entellian,

Salsabil Faria

: ,Save The Dragons, LicketyQuickety, Uranus

Radical Rat

:

LicketyQuickety

: , Radical Rat, Salsabil Faria

Not Voting

(9): cowsloveSushirolls, ,

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: August 25th, 2021

Countdown: (expired on 2021-08-23 20:00:00)

Mod Notes:

STD is on V/LA till Monday evening
-

I'm pretty sure I'm voting kenny? I don't remember ever voting LQ

[Radical Rat]

RegRider replaces floo
astronomyfortwo replaces Entellian

Please welcome them!! I will unfreeze the deadline once both of them confirm into the game or make posts into the game.

Welcome RegRider and welcome astronomyfortwo. Thank you for filling up our ranks.

I guess we are no longer able to use rr for Radical Rat though. Good thing this isn't a pirate themed game or I would suspect rr and rr were scum, arrrr.

it's not pirate themed?
man, i gotta ditch the profile picture

Vote Count 1-6

Save The Dragons

:

floo

: , kennyk

Entellian

:

kennyk

: floo,

Uranus

: ,

cowsloveSushirolls

:Entellian,

Salsabil Faria

: ,Save The Dragons, LicketyQuickety, Uranus

Radical Rat

:

LicketyQuickety

: , Radical Rat, Salsabil Faria

Not Voting

(9): cowsloveSushirolls, ,

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: August 25th, 2021

Countdown: (expired on 2021-08-23 20:00:00)

Mod Notes:

STD is on V/LA till Monday evening
-

I should be on the not voting list: 62

Vote Count 1-6

Save The Dragons

:

floo

: , kennyk

Entellian

:

kennyk

: floo,

Uranus

: ,

cowsloveSushirolls

:Entellian,

Salsabil Faria

: ,Save The Dragons, LicketyQuickety, Uranus

Radical Rat

:

LicketyQuickety

: , Radical Rat, Salsabil Faria

Not Voting

(9): cowsloveSushirolls, ,

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: August 25th, 2021

Countdown: (expired on 2021-08-23 20:00:00)

Mod Notes:

STD is on V/LA till Monday evening
-

I'm pretty sure I'm voting kenny? I don't remember ever voting LQ

@mod

[Radical Rat]

God damn it, first quote's fine and shouldn't be there. I don't know why this keeps happening.

[Radical Rat]

Yes, I agree with you on this but my experience here is holding me back tbh. A wagon which is formatting without strong resistance (specially on Day 1) has much more chance to flip as town rather than scum fmpov + they also are an old player. Even if I think

Entel

is their scum partner, hence no other wagon is formed and no resistance is formatting at the current wagon, as an experienced one, scum!

kenny

could be play the whole thing differently imo.

I didn't respond to this earlier because I expected you to see the resistance when you finished catching up, but it looks like you still believe it, so... How do you consider this no resistance? From my perspective, it felt like we were getting close to a consensus scumread, then hit a brick wall as blatant scumposting ended up being townread somehow.

Explaining instead of dictating. Looks bad for these two.

What does this even mean? What would I be "dictating" here?

[Radical Rat]

I think Radical is probably for later

and yeah rn salsa isn't really looking good as his responses to the posts are pretty weak and he seem to be slipping up more than Radical.

VOTE: Salsa

Is it E-2 or 2 votes to elimination?

What, specifically, is Salsa "slipping up" on to you?[/quote]

Chainsaw of Salsa.[/quote]

Or maybe I just genuinely wanted to know what slips he thinks he found. Still do, in fact.

@Uranus

[Radical Rat]

Fucking hell.

I swear, it looks fine in the preview, and then somehow gets fucked up before the real post...

[Radical Rat]

@Salsa

Why do you townread StD so strongly? I can't really make up my mind how I feel about the slot, but I think I'm leaning scum more often than not, largely vibe-based.

[Radical Rat]

RegRider replaces floo
astronomyfortwo replaces Entellian

Please welcome them!! I will unfreeze the deadline once both of them confirm into the game or make posts into the game.

Welcome RegRider and welcome astronomyfortwo. Thank you for filling up our ranks.

I guess we are no longer able to use rr for Radical Rat though. Good thing this isn't a pirate themed game or I would suspect rr and rr were scum, arrrr.

it's not pirate themed?
man, i gotta ditch the profile picture

God damn it, first quote's fine and shouldn't be there. I don't know why this keeps happening.

And I thought you inserted the pirate quote to suggest to change our 'theme' from finding the diamond thieves to something pirate related. You really had me laughing there.

And than it all was a misquote.

Btw. as I was previewing this, it did show the quote as plain text. After copy/paste the preview looks fine. Let's see what the real post looks like

I mean, why not both? Pirates like stealing diamonds! And could feasibly get a job at a museum!

[Radical Rat]

Hey guys! Reading what's happening and will give my thoughts.

Welcome aboard!

[Radical Rat]

Wait if Entel is Scum and kennyk requested a prod, could he have done it publicly to gain Town cred? Why couldn't he have just requested it in the mafia PM? It almost seems like inside knowledge. Can someone explain what Salsa has to do with all of this?

I don't think Entel and kenny are scum together, precisely because it could have been done in the PT if so. I don't see scum trying to draw attention to their partner that way. The prod request itself is very much null.

Now, as I've already spoken at length about, I do think the paranoia and overjustification from kenny IS scummy, but yeah I don't think they're scum together.

[Radical Rat]

why do you think i would be bussing my partner out of nowhere d1

you might've been expecting a real answer but all i have is this

why not

I think you're wrong on this. Scum generally doesn't do things like that so early, the risk/reward just isn't there usually.

It certainly CAN happen, but I see no reason to believe this is the case here.

[Radical Rat]

We CAN no lim, but in most cases we should NOT do that.

Anyway, this Uranus wagon is really bad, and StD is super scum for it, more when I get home.

[Radical Rat]

Okay I'm home, and I got confused a bit there, sorry.

In my head it was StD who started the wagon, but upon review that was LQ, not StD.

StD DID put it at E-1 though, which... I still think is bad, but my case is less ironclad this way.

[Radical Rat]

I'm here and just see the VC. I'm still recovering, don't have energy for catching up yet. Are we agreeing to eliminate

Uranus

here? If so then I'll hammer right away. If not then I've to catch up which I don’t want to atm...

This is... A very troubling post. I get you're sick and all, but to just offer up a hammer because the opportunity is there, without even properly reading... That's bad, please do not do that.

[Radical Rat]

i think kennyk is town

Can you explain?

it's a lot of a gut read just based on how he posts, he seems like town that scum can easily push for an easy mislim.

VOTE: Uranus

that's e-1

What's different about the Uranus case?

[Radical Rat]

StD/kennyk scumteam, calling it now.

[Radical Rat]

Having said that, I feel only kenny or Uranus are viable eliminations today. My preference is on kenny, obviously, but I'll vote Uranus in an emergency.

I don't want anyone else claiming their roles.

[Radical Rat]

StD/kennyk scumteam, calling it now.

i like how your case is against LQ but you don't think he's scum

It wasn't against LQ, it was specifically about your defense of kenny as being new player awkwardness pounced on by scum, followed by a flashwagon on Uranus for what I see as Actual new player awkwardness, as opposed to blatantly scum thought processes.

I do still think it's very sketchy that you hopped on, and off, the wagon so quickly, but I do at least somewhat understand the deadline pressure affects things.

LQ's take on kenny was different, so I don't think there's really that same level of hypocrisy there, and as such don't scumread him for it.

[Radical Rat]

We CAN no lim, but in most cases we should NOT do that.

Anyway, this Uranus wagon is really bad, and StD is super scum for it, more when I get home.

apparently i'm super scum because i started the wagon except no i didn't that was LQ and he's not super scum for it

StD/kennyk scumteam, calling it now.

i like how your case is against LQ but you don't think he's scum

It wasn't against LQ, it was specifically about your defense of kenny as being new player awkwardness pounced on by scum, followed by a flashwagon on Uranus for what I see as Actual new player awkwardness, as opposed to blatantly scum thought processes.

I do still think it's very sketchy that you hopped on, and off, the wagon so quickly, but I do at least somewhat understand the deadline pressure affects things.

LQ's take on kenny was different, so I don't think there's really that same level of hypocrisy there, and as such don't scumread him for it.

[Radical Rat]

Okay I'm home, and I got confused a bit there, sorry.

In my head it was StD who started the wagon, but upon review that was LQ, not StD.

StD DID put it at E-1 though, which... I still think is bad, but my case is less ironclad this way.

[Radical Rat]

Yes, you were scum for starting the wagon in my mind at that point.

[Radical Rat]

We CAN no lim, but in most cases we should NOT do that.

Anyway, this Uranus wagon is really bad, and StD is super scum for it, more when I get home.

apparently i'm super scum because i started the wagon except no i didn't that was LQ and he's not super scum for it

StD/kennyk scumteam, calling it now.

i like how your case is against LQ but you don't think he's scum

It wasn't against LQ, it was specifically about your defense of kenny as being new player awkwardness pounced on by scum, followed by a flashwagon on Uranus for what I see as Actual new player awkwardness, as opposed to blatantly scum thought processes.

I do still think it's very sketchy that you hopped on, and off, the wagon so quickly, but I do at least somewhat understand the deadline pressure affects things.

LQ's take on kenny was different, so I don't think there's really that same level of hypocrisy there, and as such don't scumread him for it.

[Radical Rat]

The reason it's scummy for you to be starting wagons on Uranus is because of the hypocrisy with regards to your kenny defense.

LQ's defense was different, and that hypocrisy isn't there, ergo not scummy.

I don't really know how much clearer I can make this.

[Radical Rat]

Having said that, I feel only kenny or Uranus are viable eliminations today. My preference is on kenny, obviously, but I'll vote Uranus in an emergency.

I don't want anyone else claiming their roles.

So you don't believe your own call? Or how should we interprete your willingness to eliminate Uranus?

I agree with the second part of your post though.
I don't see how truthfully claiming power roles on day one would help town. It would only reveal a good N1 target for mafia.

Claiming a town power role as mafia on D1 is a very high risk. Scum has to be very lucky to claim a power role in a setup where there is no potential counterclaim. And if there is a counterclaim the fakeclaimer is either eliminated on D1 or D2 leaving the sole scum in a 6-1 or 4-1 situation (after N1 or N2, worse odds if nightkills fail).

Claiming a power role as vanilla townie is even worse as both the fake and the counterclaim are going to be eliminated on D1 and D2. With nightkills going through that leaves town with a 3-2 situation.

I know that town power roles might lead to different results, but in general those should be the numbers.

I do believe my own call. I also believe that it's possible for me to be wrong, and would like to stick to the slots that give town new information on a flip, but not mafia.

Basically, if I'm wrong on StD, and we lim or even just force a claim there, it's worse than if I'm right on Uranus at this point

[Radical Rat]

"Fools we are"



Not liking all of Kenny's posts the last 36 hours or so.

Not too late to vote him~

[Radical Rat]

If CLS/Uranus is the scumteam, why would cows make that push in the first place, and why wouldn't they unvote earlier? A lot of attention and a very dangerous position to put a partner in on D1.

If CLS is scum, but Uranus isn't, why unvote at all? Why not just ride the wagon all the way through for a free mislim?

[Radical Rat]

There's lots of fun content there that will be great to unpack tomorrow, but we do really need to push a lim through soon.

I would reiterate that it needs to ideally be kenny or Uranus, because more claims are bad for Town, and honestly if someone does hit a PR claim, I don't think we have enough time to work through it before deadline.

Kenny is still my very strongly preferred elimination, but I will move my vote to Uranus if necessary in a few more hours.

My final read list for the day:

Strong Townreads:
Cows
Salsa

Light Townreads:
Uranus
RegRider
astronomyfortwo
LQ

Scum:
kennyk
StD

[Radical Rat]

Hello Norwee! Welcome aboard!

I am grateful to have more time to breathe, but I maintain my position that we really need to buckle down and get limming.

[Radical Rat]

Scum:
kennyk
StD

Why they scum?

Kenny had a thing a while ago where he requested a prod in thread, along with some really weird waffling about it looking scummy which was so odd and out of place I thought it was a joke, until someone actually asked him about it, and he claimed it was actual paranoia and started overexplaining everything in such a way that I just cannot see coming from a Town mindset. As well as the occasional bad take and questionable post for the rest of the game.


StD is scum because he defended kenny by claiming they were probably just new Town being weird, and that I looked like scum trying to push a mislim, which... Hard disagree, but okay...
And then recently he was rapidly hopping on and off wagons on new players that are posting weird, including putting Uranus at E-1 briefly. I get that with deadline so close you gotta loosen up your standards, but the whole thing just really doesn't sit right with me.

[Radical Rat]

but I maintain my position that we really need to buckle down and get limming.

I thought you were only interested in 2 Elims? So how are you saying we need A Elim if you are only concerned with 2?

Easy. We need to eliminate one of those two. I don't see the confusion about this.

[Radical Rat]

i'm not intent on limming kenny: the VLA doesn't make me very confident that we could get everything sorted out (claims, legacy reads are both very important regardless of flip) and asking for an extension won't help with that either. it's feeling like one of those days where a horrific compromise will have to happen for most people

but not me

Kenny already claimed though, and has generally been pretty open about reads. I don't think there's really much else we need from him.

[Radical Rat]

Having said that, I feel only kenny or Uranus are viable eliminations today. My preference is on kenny, obviously, but I'll vote Uranus in an emergency.

I don't want anyone else claiming their roles.

So you don't believe your own call? Or how should we interprete your willingness to eliminate Uranus?

I agree with the second part of your post though.
I don't see how truthfully claiming power roles on day one would help town. It would only reveal a good N1 target for mafia.

Claiming a town power role as mafia on D1 is a very high risk. Scum has to be very lucky to claim a power role in a setup where there is no potential counterclaim. And if there is a counterclaim the fakeclaimer is either eliminated on D1 or D2 leaving the sole scum in a 6-1 or 4-1 situation (after N1 or N2, worse odds if nightkills fail).

Claiming a power role as vanilla townie is even worse as both the fake and the counterclaim are going to be eliminated on D1 and D2. With nightkills going through that leaves town with a 3-2 situation.

I know that town power roles might lead to different results, but in general those should be the numbers.

I do believe my own call. I also believe that it's possible for me to be wrong, and would like to stick to the slots that give town new information on a flip, but not mafia.

Basically, if I'm wrong on StD, and we lim or even just force a claim there, it's worse than if I'm right on Uranus at this point

[Radical Rat]

VT

[Radical Rat]

In that last one would you have wanted to cover all bases so that you dieing wouldn't confirm a specific setup?

I can asure you (although you won't belive me) that my death won't reveal anything about the setup as I am a vanilla townie.

[Radical Rat]

if it's down to those two then i'd lim uranus but i'm not convinced yet we have to limit ourselves to those two

Why should we push more wagons and let more claims get out there to narrow the potential PR pool for scum?

[Radical Rat]

if it's down to those two then i'd lim uranus but i'm not convinced yet we have to limit ourselves to those two

Why should we push more wagons and let more claims get out there to narrow the potential PR pool for scum?

Why should we Elim Town?

If they are in fact both Town, they might as well have already flipped as far as scum is concerned. But for the rest of the town, we can't know their alignment until a real flip happens, and while losing a townie is regrettable, I think having that information will lead to us catching scum quicker and easier than a no lim will.

Fortunately though, kenny's scum so we don't have to make that compromise.

[Radical Rat]

Actually only of the E-1 wagons had poor reasoning.

[Radical Rat]

Actually only one of the E-1 wagons had poor reasoning.

[Radical Rat]

I don't think erratic voting should count as Town points. I see your point with the lack of concern over image, but I don't think that really applies here.

Erratic/aggressive voting is common enough as Town, that scum doesn't really have to be concerned about looking more careful. The actual substance and context of the votes matters more.

[Radical Rat]

Which also happens to line up perfectly if they're both scum, as is my take on the matter.

[Radical Rat]

Uranus, I'm sorry if you're Town, but.
Gotta happen to someone, and it's clear I haven't convinced enough people on kenny.... yet.

VOTE: Uranus

That's E-1

[Radical Rat]

We have less than two hours, literally whoever is online, please hammer.

[Radical Rat]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/If3SXJeZzMQ[/youtube]

[Radical Rat]

God damn it, I forgot mobile YouTube did that.

[Radical Rat]

[Radical Rat]

This is such an astronomically bad take, especially considering you've supposedly read like the entire Newbie archive.

We can take a nap when/if we get to MeLo, until then I'd rather not just hand scum free kills.

[Radical Rat]

Also, even if we did just want to make the numbers odd again, you probably shouldn't bring that up this early, because if for some reason people actually agreed to it, that would remove the threat of elimination and it would be pretty hard to get anyone under any meaningful pressure. It's just setting up the entire phase to be wasted.

[Radical Rat]

rr do you think scum posts that take

Honestly, my first instinct was to vote over it, but I don't know. It seems... Very brazen, but I don't believe in too scummy to be scum, but also I could see this just being very wrong Town.

[Radical Rat]

Kinda, yeah. That's what's making me hesitant to jump on cows for this, but I think it's clear I need to go back and reevaluate some things.

[Radical Rat]

cows town radical clown
bottom text

Well shit, can't argue with that.

[Radical Rat]

damnit

In all seriousness though, in all the games you've played/read, how many times has no limming actually been helpful outside of MeLo?

[Radical Rat]

That's not the quote that was supposed to be quoted. I've never had issues like this so frequently until this game, and I do not know what the problem is.

[Radical Rat]

Well, maybe it would have gone through if people weren't throwing out distracting new wagons so close to deadline.

But what's done is done.

[Radical Rat]

i think it's low risk low reward since scum are more inclined to kill in non-melo situations instead of playing incredibly lame
the reward being odds vs evens and whatever PR fuckery that gets thrown at the mafia

i'm fine with dropping this entirely if scum promises to kill when we sleep in melo

What are even talking about. With very rare exceptions, scum will kill every night they can. And also scum killing is a Bad Thing that we Don't want to happen, if it can at all be helped. And it can! By killing scum first.

[Radical Rat]

^ this is exactly what i needed as a rebuttal, i feel like dropping what i was thinking now
i don't think me and radical are on the same page here. isn't an f4 with all VTs a few times better than an F3, at least statistically?

What's the f stand for here?

[Radical Rat]

Okay then, yes, that's better, but like. Even better is hitting scum before we get to that point.

[Radical Rat]

Work was very unkind tonight, I will post more substantially tomorrow. For now, I slumber.

[Radical Rat]

6/9

Nice

[Radical Rat]

Anyway...

I haven't really had the energy to go analyze floo/Reg for why they may have been targeted like I'd wanted to, but as far as today's discussion goes...

I cannot see this cows/kenny exchange as being TvT. I'm still leaning toward kenny being the scum here, because while I don't disagree that Some of what cows has said is anti-Town, I feel like kenny's going out of his way to see it in the worst way possible.

And yeah, I'm aware of the irony in that as I sit here treating kenny in a similar fashion, but idk, his posts just seem very disingenuous, whereas I get the sense that cows actually does believe everything he's saying.

I do have more specific points that I want to bring up later, but I'm feeling okay getting rid of either rn.

I'm also amenable to eliminating astronomy as a backup option, but I'm not really convinced it's scum lurking as opposed to town lurking, and because the slot has posted basically zero useful content, a flip either way isn't terribly informative.

[Radical Rat]

I cannot see this cows/kenny exchange as being TvT.

What makes you think that?

They're both behaving in ways I'd consider scummy independently of this argument, but also I don't think it's SvS shenanigans because that's a lot of unnecessary heat to draw on themselves with scum in a pretty good position otherwise right now. It's Possible either one could be Town at this point, which does also mean it's possible both are, but I really feel like there's scum here.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: kennyk

I do still think this is the best way to go.

[Radical Rat]

We will not, there's still like a week left in the day, that's plenty of time to work through things.

[Radical Rat]

And if Kenny/Cow is TvT then his comment about "how it doesn’t feel like it’s TvT" seems like an way of stirring conflict by forcing an choice between those two players. Which is an standard tactic by mafia.

Why didn't you say anything to this effect yesterday when I was ACTUALLY forcing a choice between two players? Or trying to at least.

[Radical Rat]

i've put into place that i think we're both town and why, which they have not responded to yet.

Not really sure what kind of response you want from me on this one. I still think kenny isn't being genuine about his dissections of your posts, even if you don't, which indicates he's likely scum still. On your end, I have a hard time getting a solid read. You strike me as a solid player, which is why I was so taken aback by your no lim suggestion, and there have been several other odd moments, but in context you usually end up feeling like you've got a Town motivation in there.

My only other major scum candidate right now is StD, but that's predicated on kenny being scum as well, so if he flips green, it'd have to be you. Which also leaves one scum unaccounted for, and I have absolutely no idea who that would be right now.

[Radical Rat]

RR are you tring norwee

I think so.
Though obviously I don't really agree with their take on things right now.

[Radical Rat]

In all honesty, I've probably got myself too far in on a kennyk confbias. But it's still hard for me to actually pull myself away from it, because like. If I'm right, and I just let it go... That's very bad.

[Radical Rat]

It wouldn’t bother me so much if i didn’t think he was town. But then just getting lolvoted all the time and scumread from them just makes me lose motivation to do anything because it’s pointless.

Why does StD's opinion specifically matter so much to you?

[Radical Rat]

Welp, it's time to start deciding on an actual elimination this time.

My list, in order of preference:

kennyk
cowsloveSushirolls
astronomyfortwo
Save The Dragons

Everyone else I'm reasonably sure is Town at this point, and will not vote for them.

[Radical Rat]

ouch i cant format on mobile. responding to kenny's elim list here
i might also develop my read on RR. my only exposure to them was when they replaced in a recent newbie game and got quickhammered for voting early in mylo
that RR and RR here have similar levels of performativeness and my gut feeling is that it's not particularly easy to replicate as scum but I'll try to support this with actual games

Quickhammered for catching scum in my first post after joining, I might clarify.
Not really relevant to this situation, I'm just pretty proud of that game, in spite of losing.

But yeah, meta on me is probably not going to be terribly helpful, because this is my first full game in over a year.

[Radical Rat]

Welp, it's time to start deciding on an actual elimination this time.
-snip- -CLSR
I for one am willing to vote

cowsloveSushirolls
astronomyfortwo

(in that order)

you may have mentioned this already, but do you have ideas on who has partner equity with me yet?

I do not. None of your interactions have really stood out to me as partnery.

[Radical Rat]

Here's a list of how impactful each player has been according to postcount.

Kenny

StD
Norwee

astonomy
CLS

Uranus
RR

There is a correlation between high impact and Town and low impact and Scum, but it's not a coefficient.

I don't understand your ranking here. You say according to postcount, which isn't really a great metric for judging impact in the first place, and yet kenny has not posted the most, nor have I posted the least.

[Radical Rat]

So, if I'm reading this correctly, you're asserting a 100% chance that if cows is scum, Uranus is too?

[Radical Rat]

Alright, I think I do sort of understand now. Following your data, the most informative elimination would be whoever contributes the most percentage points across the board, in either direction, while the scummiest would be whoever receives the most negative, particularly if it's a large amount from one player, and CLS meets both of those.

Is this correct?

[Radical Rat]

How do you calculate these percentages? Are you an bot?!

He DID recently change to a Matrix avatar...

[Radical Rat]

Okay then. I'm willing to go ahead and sheep on that.

VOTE: cowsloveSushirolls

I believe this is E-1

[Radical Rat]

Okay then. I'm willing to go ahead and sheep on that.

VOTE: cowsloveSushirolls

I believe this is E-1

It would be better if you just voted you SRs, honestly. It will be better for me, because my data will be more accurate that way, and it will be better for you because you are voting your main suspect. Wait till late game to sheep me on this (or if I die, then you will know I am more or less on the right track).

I don't disagree with you on this, but cows was on my list of potential eliminations anyway, and I don't think I'm going to be any more successful convincing people on kenny than I was yesterday, especially now that I'm even doubting myself there.

I wouldn't be sheeping if it were anyone not already on my own list.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: astronomyfortwo

I believe cows too much, kenny's not going anywhere, StD scum is dependent on kenny scum, and I don't really know what else to do.

Though obviously I don't think we should be hammering until there's a player there to claim and make sure we aren't accidentally hitting the other PR, I do want the replacement to be under pressure right away.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, I'm not comfortable here anymore

UNVOTE:

I'll need to ISO Norwee later probably.
Right now, I'm not comfortable voting there, but I'd also kinda just been letting him coast by on my Salsa townread.

[Radical Rat]

That being said, why does scum!Uranus leave a reads list if he thinks he's hammered.

and then to kill of their largest scumreads after? a lot of WIFOM but it's way easier to just be like "uranus likely isn't in control of the nightkills"

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE
quick iso got me feeling heeheehaahaa again

What?
Why voting me again? I even tried to make sure nobody just hammered you when you were E-1 and now you scumread me?

This is a very bad post though. Just straight up emotional manipulation.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so, upon review I think I have been being too lenient with the Salsa/Norwee slot.

D1 I decided kenny was scum, and built my entire perception of the game around that, and as such gave Salsa a much harder clear than I should have, especially with her weird "Hey I'll lolhammer Uranus if you want" post. And then Norwee's posts/reactions here have been... Very ungood. And also it's almost deadline and I really don't want a no lim again so.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE
E-1, I believe

If this flips green, I'm going right back onto my kenny tunnel though.

[Radical Rat]

Reads please

[Radical Rat]

The Jailkeeper/Tracker should target either STD or maybe Radical Rat in my opinion.
I don’t really like how easily Rat turned their read on me around once wagoning me became an option.

It wasn't actually that quick behind the scenes, there were a lot of things I was willfully ignoring because I wanted you to be Town. And even then, I probably wouldn't have voted you if we weren't about to no lim again, note all the wagons on you I did Not join. Your death will not be in vain though!

[Radical Rat]

Regarding PR targets, I think Tracker can pretty much target whoever, especially if whoever is kenny, whereas JK should try to stick to the unclaimed slots since scum is more likely to kill there.

[Radical Rat]

If we wait a few more hours, we get to prod the mod

[Radical Rat]

Welp, it's been 36 hours

@mod Requesting prod on ArcAngel9

[Radical Rat]

Seriously frustrated by the end of the previous day. Norwee claims town after they're limmed and Uranus just slinks out ... why?

I seriously don't want to jump all over somebody repping into the slot but that doesn't look great.

Want to hear who got jailed but for now VOTE: Kenny instead

Explain the kenny vote please. I have my own wacky conspiracy for why he's totally still scum despite Norwee's flip, but I want to hear your thoughts here too.

[Radical Rat]

i request that i do not get limmed on my birthday

also, i think there's zero reason to try to save if it's pretty plain that tomorrow's discussion, if norwee flipped red, was going to center around uranus

if you confirm their alignment right away then thread goes an entirely different direction and has an even higher chance of winning than they had if you picked anyone else in a norwee/deepwolf world

Happy birthday!

I do agree that trying to save seems silly, but that doesn't mean a save isn't what happened anyway.

[Radical Rat]

Also, I don't think the JK should claim just yet. I'd also like to think we've won here, but in the event we didn't (it was a save, or scum just no killed), I want the JK to live to jail another day. Or night, I suppose.

[Radical Rat]

Also, Scum are WAY more likely to claim PR than VT.

Ok it wasn't things but it was something I legitimately don't get where this comes from. In what world would scum claim PR over claiming VT? Just hear me out but if I remember correctly scum claiming PR is a horrible idea except for two scenarios, and that itself is very risky. Fakeclaiming PR in elo requires that Town ends up voting their PR instead of you, and just outright claiming when outside of elo to me literally needs PRs to say nothing about it when they should.

It makes sense for the goon to try claiming PR if they're gonna die anyway. VT is a "safe" claim, but also isn't likely to change anyone's minds, whereas a PR claim could scare the less sure townies off, or bait the real PR into revealing themselves to be nightkilled. It also gives plausible deniability if a tracker catches them performing the kill.

[Radical Rat]

Very weird interactions from Norwee on the slot, versus Norwee's consistent TR on LQ which just strikes me as tmi telling.

Also don't see a great reason to bus in this position, which means Kenny or Uranus slot. Since I don't want to pile on Uranus slot until his rep gets a chance to speak, I'll settle for Kenny to lead off.

It's prob Uranus though.

I'm actually more interested in Salsa's interactions there. Particularly, how she came right out the gate gunning for kenny, pushed there very aggressively, albeit also with somewhat weak reasoning, only to back off as soon as it became a viable wagon because it was "too easy"

In light of the flip, this now reads to me like trying to distance from a partner, while also defending the slot from actually getting eliminated, and potentially earning towncred for scumreading/leaning him without a full bus.

Also, Salsa's offer to quickhammer Uranus seems odd if that's the scumteam. Could be a bus attempt, definitely, but in that case I might have expected her to just hammer anyway.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: kennyk
With a renewed sense of vigor!

I don't plan to back down on this today unless JK does decide to out who they jailed, which I reiterate I don't think they should.

[Radical Rat]

But that's just it, she

didn't

go after him when she actually had the chance! She jumped on the chance for an easy lim on Uranus, but not kenny

[Radical Rat]

It certainly could be buddying.
But I don't think most buddy attempts start with overly aggressive pushing and repeated votes, alongside never actually giving kenny a proper townread until Norwee took over, IIRC

[Radical Rat]

i don't think it's uranus/strangematter due to the offer to hammer

i don't think it's kenny either for the way she went after him

Who do you think it is then?

[Radical Rat]

Also, that sock gif... Red and Green, a deliberate ploy to prevent us from realizing they should actually BOTH be red!


I don't actually think that one's on purpose though.

[Radical Rat]

i don't think it's uranus/strangematter due to the offer to hammer

i don't think it's kenny either for the way she went after him

Who do you think it is then?

Pavowski

Why? The main point against Astro was just the lurking, wasn't it?

[Radical Rat]

I still think Pav is Scummy for pushing NAI things as Scummy.

Eh, I see what you're saying but I think that's just a case of being wrong about AI-ness. The argument you two had read as pretty genuine to me.

[Radical Rat]

Well, in addition to all prior points, including but not limited to:

Early game scum brand paranoia
Weirdness in the interactions with cows
Salsa doing what in hindsight appears to be weird distancing maneuvers

He also wasn't on the Norwee wagon. Which isn't much on it's own, as the ENTIRE Town can't fit on the wagon anyway, but in combination with the above..

Also, I can't remember kenny having a firm stance on uh. Anything? I'd need to ISO him again to be sure.

[Radical Rat]

After Norwee flipped green, I did honestly expect to have to start this day by apologizing to kenny, but the more I thought about it, the more I found myself coming back to him as scum. No one else makes sense.

[Radical Rat]

After Norwee flipped red, I did honestly expect to have to start this day by apologizing to kenny, but the more I thought about it, the more I found myself coming back to him as scum. No one else makes sense.

EBWOP.

[Radical Rat]

Because she backed off as soon as the Kenny wagon actually looked viable. Compared to the Uranus wagon where she spontaneously offered a premature hammer

[Radical Rat]

Very weird interactions from Norwee on the slot, versus Norwee's consistent TR on LQ which just strikes me as tmi telling.

Also don't see a great reason to bus in this position, which means Kenny or Uranus slot. Since I don't want to pile on Uranus slot until his rep gets a chance to speak, I'll settle for Kenny to lead off.

It's prob Uranus though.

I'm actually more interested in Salsa's interactions there. Particularly, how she came right out the gate gunning for kenny, pushed there very aggressively, albeit also with somewhat weak reasoning, only to back off as soon as it became a viable wagon because it was "too easy"

In light of the flip, this now reads to me like trying to distance from a partner, while also defending the slot from actually getting eliminated, and potentially earning towncred for scumreading/leaning him without a full bus.

Also, Salsa's offer to quickhammer Uranus seems odd if that's the scumteam. Could be a bus attempt, definitely, but in that case I might have expected her to just hammer anyway.

[Radical Rat]

Here she is backing off because the wagon was "too easy"

Spoiler:

i'm pretty satisfied with this explanation, thanks

to elaborate on this: i was hoping for an answer that was something along the lines of "your vote doesn't help town", and i got just that, along with a pretty reasonable train of thought behind it

Can you explain more? How do you think

expressing paranoia

over NAI stuff without even getting pressure is coming from town mindset? The more I'm reading them, more I find them scummy but on the same time their wagon isn’t having that much of resistance I'm thinking scum!them would have atp which is giving me 2nd thoughts....

UNVOTE: kenny

Alright, so, here's my problem.

A prod post is, usually, profoundly NAI. If anything, it might just BARELY lean Town, because Mafia benefits from Town lurking, and are thus less likely to bring it up, but it usually isn't that deep.

This particular kind of overthinking though I believe is vastly more likely to come from scum than town. I don't really see a Townie being afraid that trying to prod a lurker would look scummy, and if they did I don't see them making a big show about it, probably, but not necessarily, just PMing it instead.

However, by your own admission, you did it publicly hoping to gain towncred off it, but then got too paranoid about it backfiring that you wound up overexplaining yourself. That's scum logic if ya ask me.

Yes, I agree with you on this but my experience here is holding me back tbh. A wagon which is formatting without strong resistance (specially on Day 1) has much more chance to flip as town rather than scum fmpov + they also are an old player. Even if I think

Entel

is their scum partner, hence no other wagon is formed and no resistance is formatting at the current wagon, as an experienced one, scum!

kenny

could be play the whole thing differently imo.

And here she is offering to hammer Uranus

Spoiler:

I'm here and just see the VC. I'm still recovering, don't have energy for catching up yet. Are we agreeing to eliminate

Uranus

here? If so then I'll hammer right away. If not then I've to catch up which I don’t want to atm...

[Radical Rat]

If Kenny is Scum, strangely enough, this might be accurate.

Spoiler:

I was ISOing Salsa, and found some posts that pinged me:

Spoiler: Pinged Posts

I think she says kennyk is trying too hard, missing the obvious motive as I pointed out for a scum accusation. It's good that someone is trying to be serious because this is how we move out of RVS, but kennyk is doing this wrong. She may also be accusing kennyk of doing that just to look town. I recall that the term LAMIST is used here for this.

Perfectly explained but I want to add one thing: they said they had an account here before, so they played before here imo. That's why I'm not taking them that much of a newb player and when I read their posts ("

this sus, that sus

"), I found they were trying

too much

which I generally find suspicious.

This looks like either a defense of floo or a buddy attempt.

I think she says kennyk is trying too hard, missing the obvious motive as I pointed out for a scum accusation. It's good that someone is trying to be serious because this is how we move out of RVS, but kennyk is doing this wrong. She may also be accusing kennyk of doing that just to look town. I recall that the term LAMIST is used here for this.

what's the best way to move us outside of RVS, if the way kenny is doing it is "wrong"? is it just because the pushing happened to be on you because he thought your thought process was unclear? what happened in this game seems like just as good of a method as any, which is why i'm asking

I find

LAMIST play

scummy in general basis.
Almost every town games of mine, there was at least one scum

who appeared to be solvy in the early stage of the game

to gain towncred and in my scum games, I also tried to get towncred at RVS stage.

This might be nothing, or it might be made to make CLS look bad while also carrying the same thing of buddy/defence of floo in prior post.

But then I saw a spinet of Kenny's post in 72 in reference to the original post 62.

Why this is interesting is because of what Kenny said here:

@ Uranus: I guess you didn't read the thread properly. After Radical Rats Unvote I am now

'only'

E-2

And given StD and Kenny both come from a different game meta than current MS meta, this indicates to me that the site meta they come from people are generally much more hesitant with their votes and only vote for serious reasons. If this is the case, then Salsa vastly comes from a different meta than these two players because of their constant votes in 39, 40, and 44. What's more is that Salsa actually know this and just keeps voting Kenny for very little reason even though they are already voting for Kenny. And this happened BEFORE Kenny pointed out the 'only' E-2 comment.

Either way, it looks to be the case that Salsa has inside knowledge of Kenny's and StD's game meta that they come from. I'm hesitant to call out SvS interactions so early, but I'm not sure what another conclusion would be given this... the other option, I suppose, is that Salsa is Scum with floo. But this seems unlikely to defend a buddy so directly so early in the game.

Am I going crazy or is there something here?

Only one way to find out!

[Radical Rat]

Only one way to find out!

Well, we are NOT Elimming Kenny before he has a chance to enter the thread.

Oh no, of course not. That would be very foolish of me to try and pull, as either alignment.

Doesn't mean we can't make him come in hot though.

[Radical Rat]

I wonder if somebody smarter than me could articulate a reason why JK shouldn't reveal today. Seems like on balance the chance to get scum #2 today (if jk targeted their scum read) or to confirm 2 players (jk and their protect) is a chance worth taking against giving scum the target.

Because if JK reveals, correct play basically no matter what is to eliminate their target. Scum could have intentionally no killed precisely to make that happen, while also outing the JK or potentially Tracker. And that's probably the move I would have made if I were scum.

Also, if the JK managed to protect someone, then again, we have to eliminate there to be sure, and then that only gives the JK one more chance to hit scum or they're dead and nothing can protect them. So the "confirm 2 players" option doesn't actually work out that way in practice.

That said, JK does need to claim eventually, and the above can happen no matter when they do, so the precise timing is somewhat WIFOM. I actually had another reason, but that didn't come to pass, so. Might as well go for it...

[Radical Rat]

I'm the JK.
StD N1
kenny N2

I didn't want to claim yet, because I wanted to see if scum would try to be wacky and fakeclaim it, but everyone's posted now and that didn't happen.

[Radical Rat]

Everything I said regarding kenny is my genuine thought process, but I was hoping scum would kill, thus hardclearing kenny and freeing me from my tunnel. I know it goes against my own targeting suggestion, but I just had to have an answer on kenny.

[Radical Rat]

Sure, but the problem is I don't think those scenarios are of equal probability.
If scum were to kill, I would have expected a kill outside of established claims. I also wouldn't expect you specifically to be targeted, because despite being generally townread, I think your slot's been controversial enough that you'd be worth keeping around for mislim bait.

The no kill outcome is very possible, and as I've said is the move I'd probably make as scum in this situation. But even so, I scumread you for plenty of other reasons, so that doesn't really deter me.

[Radical Rat]

Another option has occurred to me.

We could let kenny live, for now, while I continue to jail him, and we eliminate elsewhere. If kenny's scum, no nightkills can happen, and he can be safely eliminated in elo.
If kenny's not scum, then the real scum has to choose between continuing to not kill, guaranteeing a win in elo, if they can survive the four attempts town has to hit them first, or killing me, confirming kenny's innocence in the process and sacrificing a guaranteed elo win for only needing to survive three eliminations instead of four.

This may actually be optimal, though if I'm right on kenny I don't really like the idea of just eliminating townies for the sake of it, if I'm wrong then limming kenny seems to put us in an objectively worse spot than not doing so.

[Radical Rat]

Okay, I feel Elimming Kenny today is the best move. Reason for this is that if Kenny is Scum, then it's game over. However, this should cause RR to reevaluate if Kenny is Town.

So let me ask RR: In the case that we Elim Kenny and Kenny flips Town, who are you going to target? I feel making this known is the best thing to do at this point since Town will know who is clear if you get NKed. OTOH, I really can't see StD as Scum now that Norwee flipped Scum. So I would suggest at least targeting away from StD. My pick for you to target would be Pav.

I agree, StD is probably Town, and Pavowski is the best target.
Everyone else is pretty firmly Town in my mind, so we benefit most from confirming that slot.

[Radical Rat]

If everyone agrees that it's better to eliminate kenny now rather than later, and no one objects to me jailing Pav, then I'm alright with a hammer whenever.

[Radical Rat]

I will also point out, though, that rat announcing his target for tonight gives scum an opportunity to no-kill again to frame that person, so be on the lookout for that if, in fact, rat does choose to jail me.

This opportunity exists regardless of whether scum knows my target. I am the only viable NK target for scum that wants to win, and I can't protect myself, so that's not a concern for scum. They'll know ahead of time whether the kill will go through or not, but the actual decision whether to kill me or try to frame my target isn't affected.

[Radical Rat]

Making my target known is only a good thing for Town, and I kinda don't like that attempt to shade it, but I suppose it doesn't matter much since you're getting confirmed one way or another tomorrow. If there even is a tomorrow.

[Radical Rat]

I will also point out, though, that rat announcing his target for tonight gives scum an opportunity to no-kill again to frame that person, so be on the lookout for that if, in fact, rat does choose to jail me.

This opportunity exists regardless of whether scum knows my target. I am the only viable NK target for scum that wants to win, and I can't protect myself, so that's not a concern for scum. They'll know ahead of time whether the kill will go through or not, but the actual decision whether to kill me or try to frame my target isn't affected.

And what are the other options?
You don't tell who you are going to target, you are unlucky with your pick (which has a 80 % probability if I am limmed) and are NKed. In this case, we (or better: the remaining townies) know nothing. I don't think that is good at all.
You could also try and trick scum by telling us you would jail a) but in reality are jailing b). This could pay off but in case of you getting NKed it would confirm a) as town even if he is the remaining scum. In this case it will be an easy win for scum. I don't like this either.

Which is precisely why I am not doing either of those things.

Though I did briefly consider the tricky option, I'm not willing to bet on scum no killing. It'd certainly be a lot of fun if it worked out, but it's not worth chasing a weird scenario like that with such a high risk.

[Radical Rat]

i want strange to give their thoughts and i'm -fine- with sending kenny away

just checking, it's guaranteed that RR is jailkeeping pavowski?

Yes, unless someone has a particularly compelling reason why I shouldn't

[Radical Rat]

In my defense though, that would mean I was bussing Norwee yesterday and I still think it makes zero sense for scum to bus right there. By that logic I would say if the JK target is not me, it should be strange

I do find it odd that you would bus there. I also find it odd that Salsa would bus Uranus during the D1 wagon. But if kenny flips green, then that does seem to confirm that

someone

has done something odd, so.

[Radical Rat]

I find it more likely that the goon would be on the receiving end of a hypothetical bussing, regardless of day. Offering to hammer the scum PR on D1 before they even have a chance to use their ability would be an.... Interesting choice, to say the least.

[Radical Rat]

And yeah, this whole conversation is pretty meaningless at this point, but nothing better to do until we get a hammer.

[Radical Rat]

What, my prison food isn't good enough for you?

[Radical Rat]

Oh, if I do die tonight, and Pav gets confirmed Town, I'd say look at cows probably more than StrangeMatter. I just Really don't see scum attempting a bus on their PR D1.

[Radical Rat]

Pavowski was the consensus, and I'm not doing the coin flip thing. I don't think it's worth introducing uncertainty when we could get a hardclear.

[Radical Rat]

And yeah, this whole conversation is pretty meaningless at this point, but nothing better to do until we get a hammer.

Seriously? I just said we should say who we want you to jail tonight.

I think of everyone here I actually kind of want you to jailkeep either myself or Pavowski at this point.

I was specifically referring to the discussion of whether it makes more sense for you or Pav to be scum. Which is somewhat pointless because either game ends, Pav gets cleared, or we eliminate Pav tomorrow.

[Radical Rat]

StrangeMatter is probably Town. I already thought Uranus was Town, even if he didn't ultimately contribute much, and as I've mentioned already, the hammer offer from Salsa is really weird if the slot's the rolecop.

[Radical Rat]

I still exist

I still think Kenny is town but I'm willing to be wrong if I'm wrong

Do you disagree with the plan of limming kenny and jailing Pavowski?

[Radical Rat]

What still nags on me is those two comments norwee made in twilight about investing StD next and LQ being town. I am still not sure if he put his partner in crime in one of those posts. But I still can't make up my mind about it.

Best to just throw it out entirely. Norwee knew he was gonna flip red, so nothing he said after his hammer should be given any kind of credence. Just pure WIFOM at this point.

[Radical Rat]

Sure, there was almost definitely some kind of intention there. But it's virtually impossible to get any useful information out of it because we can't know where Norwee stopped with the whole "They'll know I'm scum, so they'll think I'm lying, so I won't lie, but then they'll know I think that, so I will lie..." Etc.

[Radical Rat]

Another option has occurred to me.

We could let kenny live, for now, while I continue to jail him, and we eliminate elsewhere. If kenny's scum, no nightkills can happen, and he can be safely eliminated in elo.
If kenny's not scum, then the real scum has to choose between continuing to not kill, guaranteeing a win in elo, if they can survive the four attempts town has to hit them first, or killing me, confirming kenny's innocence in the process and sacrificing a guaranteed elo win for only needing to survive three eliminations instead of four.

This may actually be optimal, though if I'm right on kenny I don't really like the idea of just eliminating townies for the sake of it, if I'm wrong then limming kenny seems to put us in an objectively worse spot than not doing so.

We can still do this instead if people aren't comfortable with eliminating kenny anymore.

[Radical Rat]

many threats to vote someone that don't actually happen from a now flipped mafia goon?
they might be scum PR

I just don't agree with this assessment. Maybe without Salsa's near hammer, but considering most people immediately told her absolutely not, we don't know if she was actually going to follow through or not. I think she would have, and I don't think scum does that to their PR. At least not on D1.

[Radical Rat]

Also, there's not really any scenario I can see where StrangeMatter survives this game, unless scum is caught first, so what does the specific order matter?

[Radical Rat]

Yes, I am currently planning on jailing Pavowski tonight

Is that official enough for you?

[Radical Rat]

I do, but I probably wouldn't if it were based on today's posts alone. Unfortunately, there's also the entire rest of the game, plus the no kill, and also I'm reasonably confident in saying everyone else is Town, but scum has to be somewhere, so... I think it's kenny.

[Radical Rat]

I mean, I'm basically conftown since no one's counterclaimed me. I theoretically COULD be lying, but if the real JK/Tracker had claimed in that case, it would have been an easy win for Town, as we can afford to lim both of us. Which by the same logic makes it unlikely for scum to fake counter, though I was hoping they'd try it anyway.

[Radical Rat]

Why wouldn't he? We could eliminate him today even.

[Radical Rat]

Y'know, I think I want to jail cows instead actually.

Pavowski is still the official choice as of this post, but...

I think cows is a very difficult slot to read because of his playstyle/personality, and as such I think we might benefit more from confirming him than Pav.

Thoughts?

[Radical Rat]

I think you're way too hung up on the whole odd/even thing. It matters, yes, but not

that

much.

[Radical Rat]

One day we'll end a phase in a timely fashion

[Radical Rat]

I am going to do this though, since no one's offered any real reason why I shouldn't.

Official Jail Target is now cowsloveSushirolls

[Radical Rat]

@Mod
Is Happily Ever After a thing that can happen here?

[Radical Rat]

Cows, I never got a chance to say this during the game itself, because by the time you were confirmed I was dead, but you were an absolute joy to play with and I loved your style and shenanigans.

However, your pirate icon was better, so you lose some points for that.

[Radical Rat]

Also, yeah, sorry about the kenny tunnel.

Every time I was almost convinced he was Town, I'd just keep getting caught in "But what if he's not???" and of course the jail didn't help with that.

[Radical Rat]

strange is not allowed to refer to my interpretation of their posting in 1724

cows does it again

Hands down, best post in the game. 10/10 content.