Newbie 2093 | New Wave | Postgame

[furtiveglance]

Inside jokes ew.
I hope we won't have any jokes this game Big Terp - they can confuse things, which does unfortunately help the mafia.

[furtiveglance]

Greetings.

Furtive, I'm glad to see you didn't let our previous encounter scare you off as you suggested at the time it might. I look forward to playing with you again.

VOTE: Asphodelus

I am curious if the misspelling is one of those inside jokes Furtive suggests might exist, or if it is calculated to impart the sense of a carefree and frivolous attitude we are supposed to take as a towntell.

Still not sure why town believed you when you claimed a guilty on your cc. But my fault for claiming early I guess

[furtiveglance]

Inside jokes ew.
I hope we won't have any jokes this game Big Terp - they can confuse things, which does unfortunately help the mafia.

I really want you to be scum this game
it's your time to shine
I'm not reading anything AI into your one post, just wishing

I don't need to be scum to shine.

[furtiveglance]

I'd like to know how much experience everyone has with mafia in general and the forum format.

I have played a lot on mafia.gg like Corn - what is your username on there?
As for (completed) forum games, I was in Newbies 2088 and 2090.
I have played with TTTT twice before, BigTerp and Val once each.

[furtiveglance]

Hey guys, I think we should probably all say how much experience we have with mafia. Maybe some people won't agree but just my personal opinion

[furtiveglance]

I don't think Asphodelus should be immune to being voted while V/LA, but it's the not the most productive use of time.

As for posting, some people hate wall posts, some people hate more than one post at a time. I think the more posts the better, helps us to get reads on each other. 'Thread drowning' is only really a problem if one or two players dominate.

[furtiveglance]

abdbla's push on Corn is weird. The reason given is that Corn's posts have been airy, but that's the same for everyone so far.

As for Take 'assuming' TTTT was town, I think that wording can come from town.

VOTE: abdbla

[furtiveglance]

Oh ok. I didn't realise you limited your initial voting pool to people you previously played with. Still seems like a weird move and I didn't like the explanation for the vote, it seemed a bit mechanical. so I'll keep mine where it is.

[furtiveglance]

Explain this very bold and early gamesolve please.

[furtiveglance]

I am town. Then again scum would probably say that too.

[furtiveglance]

Italiano do you actually suspect either Take or Corn?

[furtiveglance]

I read 2091, it was over pretty quickly

[furtiveglance]

Thinking saying hi at the beginning of a game is in any way alignment indicative is the dumbest thing I've heard on this website.

Exactly. I reserve the right to greet the game. Relying on these kind of 'tells' is lazy and allows scum to look busy for free just by bringing it up. I'd prefer to hear what people think about the actual game.

[furtiveglance]

Italiano, you're being too mysterious for me. You said you were reaction checking Take with your strange jokes and implied that the reaction was suspicious, without really explaining why. 111 mostly explains your own behaviour rather than scumcasing Take.

[furtiveglance]

abdbla, are you going to push someone for greeting the game now? If not, this conversation is pointless.

[furtiveglance]

Ok, then explain how this 'tell' is shaping your view on the game.

[furtiveglance]

It looks like Italiano was the only one not to greet this game. Do you townread them strongly?

[furtiveglance]

Out of the active people (Italiano, Take, abdbla, Corn, BigTerp), Most town for me are Take and Terp.

[furtiveglance]

Italiano's gameplay at the moment is scum+. Town should make an effort to be open and I don't see that. I also think it's easy to fake reads by acting mysterious.

[furtiveglance]

Out of the active people (Italiano, Take, abdbla, Corn, BigTerp), Most town for me are Take and Terp.

What's your towncase on Terp, furtive? If you have one worth mentioning.

I guess I'm not really sure what to say on the Take-Italiano situation that hasn't already been said. I think Take is getting way too standoffish, but that's not exactly a scumtell, and their posts are honestly much more logically coherent - it atleast feels like they're trying to move the game forwards. With Italiano, I'm not so sure - they're also being rather opaque, as furtive has already said.

To respond to 137, I don't think my answer will be as relevant as the others because I was scum in that game, so being an adversary with Take probably changed my view of them in that one, though their playstyle seems generally fine. Took them a bit to get to grips with the format but that's everyone. They seem quick to irritate which I'm not a huge fan of from a player perspective but from a game perspective it's probably NAI. In fact, I'd expect newbscum to be less quick to irritate and more focused on passing off an image of being cool, calm and collected. I know that's how I played my newbscum game.

Not a towncase as much as it is gut feeling early. Interesting you didn't question the townread on Take, is that because you agree?

[furtiveglance]

No rush. I'm scumleaning you despite your protests, but not voting you. I want to give others including Aspho time to read and contribute

[furtiveglance]

No rush. I'm scumleaning you despite your protests, but not voting you. I want to give others including Aspho time to read and contribute

Reply to 149

[furtiveglance]

No rush. I'm scumleaning you despite your protests, but not voting you. I want to give others including Aspho time to read and contribute

Fair enough. I promise you it’ll work out.

If I thought you were town and playing in annoying way, I might trust it. I currently think you're mafia taking the easy way out and not explaining anything so you don't have to fake convincing reads.

[furtiveglance]

Italiano's gameplay at the moment is scum+. Town should make an effort to be open and I don't see that. I also think it's easy to fake reads by acting mysterious.

what specifically is "mysterious" about Italiano's gameplay
I have him as a townlean
mostly for poking the bear this hard
and then asking backup from others who were in the last game with him and T02

84 and 86 were the start, and since then he's kind of played up to the 'secret plan' shtick.

You say he's been poking the bear, but it's worth noting that Italiano has really upped the posting and this push on Take since being put at E-2 in 92.

[furtiveglance]

I did see it as assuming TTTT was town, but didn't find it scummy nonetheless. Town can assume people are town.

[furtiveglance]

You guys are giving me readslist envy so I will concoct one now

[furtiveglance]

CornPuffBuddha

: Tone is very logical and matter-of-fact. I usually associate this with scum, but I'm aware some users play like this as town (MalcolmTucker and TistDaniel for instance). I like that Corn has got stuck into reading other players in an outspoken way. Vote and unvote on Italiano both seem fairly measured, and I don't get the sense that there's a sinister motive in defending Take repeatedly - TTTT suggested 'false associatives', but I don't think that lines up with Corn's insistence in 239 that his read on Take was 'complicated'. I can see a natural thought process with Corn's posting, and I townread him.

BigTerp:

Tone early game is similar to last game (2090) when he was town. 236 gives 3 townreads, 3 null and 2 null/scumreads. I don't really think scum would give a list like this and then be so self-aware about the lack of scumreads, but that's just WIFOM I guess. My worry is that those reads are very easy to fake, and in 2090 Terp was more confident with a 'gut feel' on Somnus early. I understand his lack of committal could be due to some players coasting. I know logically he hasn't really earned a townread, but I'll go with my gut feel. BigTerp, if you had to guess one mafia right now, who would it be?

TTTT

: I've played with TTTT as both alignments now (2088 and 2090). As scum TTTT jumped on the first push day 1, which they haven't done with Italiano. However 185 is a weird post to make - last game TTTT didn't support my push at all, instead trailblazing his own path. I suppose 216 is more in line with this. Gut read is closer to town!TTTT than scum!TTTT, but it's not as strong a townread as last game.

Asphodelus

: 194 is imo one of the most interesting posts all game, (not the bit about the tell or pigeons) because in the bit under the dotted line Aspho gives reads on a lot of the playerlist - if you manage to pick apart what she says. TTTT and T02 are both townreads, as well as everyone who voted Italiano (BigTerp, Corn and Take) - with the reasoning that scum would want to sit back rather than wagon someone early. Whether you agree with this logic or not, I like the analysis and I can see the thought process. Then in 214 and 242 the TR on TTTT is retracted and it's hard to understand why. This latest move is really strange and dampens my townread. I just don't know why Aspho's entire view of the game changed so suddenly. Asphodelus, do you think TTTT is scum, find him very annoying, or both?

Takemikazuchi02

: I townread Take early for the aggression and frankness. Looking at his ISO now though, I can see that defensive mafia is a possibility. Italiano has suggested that Take's tone is different to 2091, which I can understand. It's worth noting though that players play differently in different situations as well as different alignments. My main problem with Take is that he seems to be conflating reads with his general attitude towards players - examples being Italiano and TTTT who are 'arrogant veterans'. In order to move Take out of null I'll need him to give reads on players other than those two, and 196 isn't really enough. On a side note, insulting people and calling them stupid won't help you as either alignment.

Val89

: Val was scum in 2088, and largely inactive that game. His play this game feels similar post-count wise, and I don't like that what he has said is mostly strategy, apart from an omgus vote on Aspho. Other users (TTTT, Corn and Terp I think) have town-leaned Val for his latest posts but I want more analysis from Val. Hopefully his visitors go away soon. Null/scumlean.

ItalianoVD

: I've already expressed my concern that the 'death tunnel' with Take started when Italiano had a few votes on him. It makes me think panicking scum looking for a pivot. I don't think the average town would react like that, but Italiano clearly isn't the average player which muddies my thinking on him. In my experience the 'know-it-all' act is more often used by mafia than town. His latest posts are showing signs of improvement however, and in a scum!Take world Italiano is obviously clear. I'm just not convinced by his push on Take. Scumlean.

abdbla

: I don't like the tone here at all. It comes across as confrontational and assuming things are obvious to people - 'What else?', 'am I misreading the thread?' etc. Furthermore there's a lack of explicit analysis in favour of pointless maths/strategy talk, which in my experience is indicative of scum. I could be being influenced by low post count here but for now it's a scumread.

I will keep my vote where it is, and encourage others to join if you agree.

[furtiveglance]

Furtive
I need more from you buddy

abdbla/Val with Italiano 3rd mafia and Take 4th?

That's the best I've got for you

[furtiveglance]

I don't think all this bickering is gonna get us anywhere. I sympathize with Aspho, I do find Italiano and to a lesser extent TTTT annoying and unfun to play but we need to play to win.

I'm gonna try to be more civil and I hope Aspho does the same and TTTT gets off high horse. I think Italiano is beyond compromise unfortunately..

[furtiveglance]

It does feel a bit chaotic.

[furtiveglance]

Who's design could it be by? Half the lobby is caught up in acrimonious death tunneling and half is just not here.

[furtiveglance]

Hinting at what? Italiano/Take having mafia? At this rate I wouldn't rule anything out

[furtiveglance]

@TTTT

I want you to give your thoughts on today's developments

I don't care for the abdbla wagon
but I'm also having happier thoughts about CornPuff
Furtive is starting to move to my scum pile because of
POE
and he's not as engaged as his prior town games

How dare you. I'm probably more engaged than you, you toxic, arrogant veteran who thinks he's better than everyone >:(

How's that for a reaction check

[furtiveglance]

Good Day Fam,

First thing's first.

My vote on TTTT is more OMGUS than it is a real vote

. 213 irks me in a fundamental level that I can not explain. It is the worst post in this game for so many reasons. If you're wondering why I'm voting them, its that post alone. For me, he's scummy because he's incredibly arrogant, most of his posts are literal just pointing at other people, and its rapid posting. Its just things like 253 255 and 218. His Iso and the like don't actually 'inform' or 'lead' things, as much as come from an appeal to authority. The assumption you have to make that he's leading somewhere is that he's town, which is not a valid assumption. I find it very close to throwing everything at everyone so noone asks him about anything. His votes have been on people without a wagon (save me, but that was odd to do to begin with), and I'd make the claim it's more 'i am giving you leads while not doing anything myself' approach.

Now, onwards.

You're asking for my leads and such and townsread:

T02

- He's basically playing the same the other game when he was being attacked by trist and such for no reason. I see he's easy to aggrevate, but hes not actually gone against anything. He's not following trends, he's just voting on people that annoy him as always.

Furgitive

-- Only person with a cool head, and I think they're basically the whole

Spoiler: Another Meme

Thing going on.

Abdbla

-- Statistical analysis. As much as I disagree with his conclusion, we've hit a point where we agree on the method. I think he's trying to game solve still, but the issue is that's basically the same as Scum Abdbla. However, this time, he isn't trying to push the wagon away or lead a new one; though in context for last game, you did sub into a scummy slot.

BigTerp

-- he's actually playing, participating and analyzing like things in 259. While I dont necessarily agree with most of the conclusions he reaches, It feels more like analyzation and an attempt at game solve

Vel

-- Null. BigTerp is doing a massive catch up game

Italiano

-

Which is it, did you solve the game, or do you have no idea what's happening

TTTT

- Reasons above. Randomly poking and saying 'explain' is not game solving.

1) I like that you also colour code reads
2) Furgitive is a made up word. Fugitive means escapee. My name is furtiveglance, which is a secretive look.
3) Your read on TTTT is still incredibly contradictory. You have them as your biggest scumread despite it not being a 'real vote'.

[furtiveglance]

Furtive
you totally passed the test
locktown status achieved!
not really
I want you to be town (like CornPuff)
but if you are it's gonna take some work bc I don't see it yet

Explain your townread on abdbla.

[furtiveglance]

Abdbla

-- Statistical analysis. As much as I disagree with his conclusion, we've hit a point where we agree on the method. I think he's trying to game solve still, but the issue is that's basically the same as Scum Abdbla. However, this time, he isn't trying to push the wagon away or lead a new one; though in context for last game, you did sub into a scummy slot.

A lot of abdbla's 'analysis' has been on game theory/strategy rather than their own thoughts. I've seen this a lot from scum in the games I've played.

[furtiveglance]

TTTT is being replaced.

Sad news.

[furtiveglance]

After catching up this morning, below is where I currently stand with everyone. Color coded even for Furtive's pleasure!!

Thanks

Val89

- Has gone from a null (mostly due to inactivity) to a pretty solid town read. They've caught up with the game and have provide some very productive posts. This 298 and previous post about trying to keep up with the game and being busy seem genuine. 339 Is VERY interesting. They seem to be really trying to figure things out. Subsequent posts could be seen as tunneling a bit (on Take), but I think Val has really figured something out (even if only in their own head) and continues to work through their thought process with each post.

Val is your top townread. Are we playing the same game? Val has gone from coasting to peddling an Aspho/T02 solve which makes no sense to me. All of Val's latest posting is tunneling T02, he isn't commenting on most of the playerlist or explaining why he townreads literally everyone other than Aspho and T02 (apparently).

CornPuffBuddha

- Another town read. They have many of the same thoughts and progressions as I've had myself so far. This 212 is a very unrated townish type post that didn't stick out much until now, for whatever reason. Much of the same as Val in regards to subsequent posts. Pretty strong town read here.

I have Corn as my top townread. Agree that they seem pretty sensible and well-intentioned.

TTTT

- Still a fairly solid town read for the same reasons mentioned in my reads list quoted above. Not much has changed here, other than the fact they are being replaced.

Also agree.

Furtive

- Has gone from a town to null read. Something in the back of my head just keeps telling me I gotta watch out here. He was a REALLY tough read for me the only game we played together, and I kept going back and forth. He ended up being town, and I even protected him as the town doctor twice, but I questioned myself the whole time. Same feelings here for whatever reason.

Asphodelus

- Going to keep them null, for now. Still a tough read for me. They've been really focused/tunneling TTTT, who've I've got as town. The OMGUS vote is not helpful and they seem to be back and forth between it being an actual OMGUS vote and that TTTT is scum, like here 316. They say

"My vote on TTTT is more OMGUS than it is a real vote."

. Yet in the same post have TTTT as their top scum read. Which is it? Not much context besides the TTTT stuff and a few posts that get rather long and rambling.

Aspho has been playing very strangely. It's one of those where I'm not sure mafia would play like this on day 1.

abdbla

- Null to slightly scummy read. My vote is currently here, but I'm questioning that now. Their lack of participation and seemingly "fluffy" type posts early on gave me a lot of pause. However, they've come back since and provided some decent content. Specifically here 271 and here 312. BUT, there was no reaction to me putting my vote on them, which seems odd. I expected at least some sort of comment on that if they were town.

What did you townread about the reactions?

Takemikazuchi02

- Now a null to scum read. The first part of the game was just odd to me. I still don't understand the frustration and irritation, but at least they explained why it happened. Fair enough there. Val's post here 339 gave me some pause and got me thinking more about Take. But the subsequent defensiveness on Take's part is really evident starting with 342 and is really starting to look like scum squirming to me.

Disagree, I've gone back and forth but I land town with Take - especially as Val and Italiano are the ones hard pushing him.

ItalianoVD

- Scum!! Their drastic shift from their early play has me thinking they are scum trying to shift tactics after being called out for the mysterious type posts. 281 feels like scum trying to make excuses for their early play. This 314 was conveniently not addressed. Again, feels like scum trying to dismiss their early scum play hoping it'll be forgotten about.

They have changed their style drastically since early game. Definitely high chance of being scum, after their reaction to being pushed early.

[furtiveglance]

Ok I failed to strip quote. Hopefully it's still readable

[furtiveglance]

Part of the reason this game feels so chaotic is we can't agree on townreads. We both townread Corn for instance, but half the players seem to be scumreading them.

[furtiveglance]

I think a functional townblock is me, Terp, Corn and TTTT's replacement. For day 1 at least

[furtiveglance]

For obvious reasons I'd rather be in there over Val. In terms of today's elimination I think abdbla has high scum potential, Italiano might give more info however. If I townread Italiano more I might even consider Take, but that might just be a waste as I see scum!Italiano more than scum!Take.

[furtiveglance]

I never considered Take for an elim. I said if I townread Italiano I would consider Take. I'm between abdbla/Val/Italiano for the elim today.

[furtiveglance]

I have Take as a null read. Italiano is scummier. It's game strategy - sometimes you vote with a player who is hard pushing someone else.

[furtiveglance]

But that was a hypothetical. Why did I bring it up? I'm just explaining my thought process

[furtiveglance]

Val. It's not 'factually incorrect' that a lot of your posts have been strategy or otherwise not pertinent to other players.

78 is a bit of speculation on Take/TTTT interaction, followed by discussion of the dreaded 'greeting tell'.

104 is again about 'tells' and meta.

230 is about the tell discussion in this game.

Since then you've been insanely confident on an Aspho/Take solve, without sufficient reason in my opinion.

As for the vote on Aspho being an omgus, she voted you in 194. You voted her in 231.
That's what an omgus vote is.

[furtiveglance]

All 3 of those "tell" posts you indicate are specifically directed at explaining why I brought that up, and why I considered the matter pertinent only to TTTTs alignment and explicitly NOT "strategy" or otherwise not pertinent to other players - you even mention the players to which they relate and indicate "in this game" in your post! Can you honestly not see how that is contradictory?

As for the vote on Aspho being an omgus, she voted you in 194. You voted her in 231.
That's what an omgus vote is.

It isn't. Rather than explain, allow me a simple demonstration.

VOTE: Furtiveglance.

I was under the impression that an omgus vote meant a reciprocal vote.

[furtiveglance]

I get what you're saying - omgus is oh my god you suck. I just thought it meant something else

[furtiveglance]

is Corn being replaced? I thought they were just V/LA.

[furtiveglance]

No, I'm unaware of your previously dealings with Furtive. If you'd like to fill me in, or point me in the right direction I'll certainly look into it.

In furtives first ever game on this site, I was scum, and I got him, the claimed town tracker, mislimmed one-on-one D2 with a fake CC. He was, understandably, extremely frustrated about it to the point he said we was considering not playing again. The game in question for reference is here. It's clear from the post game discussion that he considered that game lost - despite being reassured by others that it wasn't his fault, I just played a good scum game - because he wasn't able to convince everyone else what was obvious to him, that I was mafia.

I think it's somewhat understandable that either town!furtive would therefore be hypersensitive or a scum!furtive would probably be looking for any chance for revenge this game, and I've been looking closely at those possibilities from the get go.

"but it's worth a short" (in reference to possibly being wrong on your read on Take) both just sound scummy to me.

In actual fact, that wasn't in reference to being possibly wrong on my read on Take. The full context is as follows:

I might be wasting my time here, but it's worth a short, because I would really like to flip T02 today. I'm highly confident that will result in a red flip, and perhaps that will knock you out of this in itself; and if your unwarranted distrust of me is part of what is standing in the way of that, that's an issue.

I was asking furtive to look at me again with fresh eyes, perhaps with some awareness of how our previous game might be affecting his read; I know that's a big ask, but I considered it 'worth a shot' because, as I explained, I think the fact he went from Town to null again on T02 in the space of 20 or so posts and that he only had 'val and italiano are pushing t02' to say in support of that TR is evidence that it is that unwarranted distrust that is standing in the way of a lim I think is going to result in a red flip, and that's obviously the best start we can have to this game. It wasn't the T02 lim that was, but the direct appeal to furtive to look at me again that I considered worth a shot.

If you had wrongly read that as 'I might be wrong about t02 but want to lim him anyway', and you didn't know those previous circumstances, then I can at least understand why you thought that might have been scummy. I thought there might have been a bit of opportunism on your part there, but it makes sense how that could have been a town thought now.

I'm not the kind of player to hold a grudge or let previous games' events affect my reads. My read on you is entirely due to your continued peddling of Aspho/Take being paired scum. I don't scumread either player at the moment, let alone both. So then I have to decide whether I'm wrong (don't think so), you're wrong and very overconfident town (possible) or scum pushing town (my current read).

[furtiveglance]

Welcome Malakittens, I take it you'll move your vote soon. Who is your preferred elimination so far?

[furtiveglance]

We have a few days left before deadline. I think abdbla has the highest scum potential, Italiano might give more info though. I think we should probably vote in these two today, my preferred option is abdbla.

[furtiveglance]

T02: In the nicest way possible, consider replacing out. Either that or change your attitude because it's making the game less fun.

[furtiveglance]

I did not mean to break the rules. Apologies

[furtiveglance]

Here's hoping I don't get a lifetime ban....

[furtiveglance]

I still think abdbla has a higher chance of flipping red, but an Italiano flip would give us more information. Scum!Italiano probably clears Val and Take since scum would neither pair openly or be at each other's throats on day 1, at least assuming normal play.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[furtiveglance]

Think it's me you and Take right now so yeah

[furtiveglance]

I still want an abdbla vote but we were sat at E-2 for ages and I think an Italiano elim has more support. It's been mentioned by others and my self that Italiano's flip might give more info than abdbla as well.

[furtiveglance]

I already said Scum!Italiano clears Val and Take, town!Italiano doesn't give great info but when does a town flip give good info?
I was thinking more that scum!abdbla doesn't give much associative info because they have been quieter. Town flips are always bad news.

[furtiveglance]

I agree with you, hence me parking on abd for most of day 1. However, BigTerp and Take, as well as abd (obviously) all prefer Italiano. What would be great is if Val/Aspho/Malakittens said who they would prefer out of abd/Italiano to see if we can get the support for abdbla.

[furtiveglance]

No counter claim from me. The time is now to counter claim.

UNVOTE: ItalianoVD

[furtiveglance]

We want everyone to acknowledge the claim first, but assuming no CCs abdbla is also my preferred elimination.

[furtiveglance]

We want everyone to acknowledge the claim first

Acknowledged.

but assuming no CCs abdbla is also my preferred elimination.

As far as I understand it, your case on abdbla is that you disliked their tone early on, and you consider that "A lot of abdbla's 'analysis' has been on game theory/strategy rather than their own thoughts". Was there anything else?
Also, did I miss your answer to my question at the bottom of 436? It will come as no surprise that I strongly prefer a T02 lim today, and this has done little to change that, and I'm still struggling to get a proper handle on where you stand there.

It's partly a gut read and partly poe. Obviously my townreads aren't locked in but if I see Corn, Terp, Malakittens, Aspho all as town at the moment with Italiano currently uncced Tracker, scum is in abdbla/Take/You. You and Take clearly aren't paired unless you have a career in acting. This leaves abdbla as the common denominator and I feel very confident about a red flip. If abdbla is somehow town I'll need to re-evaluate the whole game, but I feel pretty good about them being scum here.

[furtiveglance]

This latest post indicates a red flip to me. Pretty close to an admittance of reluctance to spew associatives.

VOTE: abdbla

[furtiveglance]

I don't think we want 2 claims at once, not that I think there's much chance of hitting PR. The thing is that Italiano is already voting Take, so if you (BigTerp) put Take at E-1 abdbla will have the hammer. I think we're waiting for abdbla to get on and claim at this point.

[furtiveglance]

Right. Initial thoughts today:
1) Rip Corn, not too surprised about that kill.

2) Unfortunate way to end yesterday, but on the plus side we generated a lot of content which usually leads to better games for town.

3) The 'accidental' hammer is the elephant in the room. I had Asphodelus town/null before. I could potentially believe it was an accident, but mafia could make those kind of mistakes too. I don't want to feel like an idiot if we leave Aspho alive and she ends up being scum.

4) abdbla is scum and the partner is in the Take voters yesterday. I wanted abdbla yesterday and I still do.

VOTE: abdbla

[furtiveglance]

Ugh, that really sucked. I'm still super annoyed by the whole E-1 BS . I thought it was E-1 when I voted.

VOTE: abdbla

Shit happens

TBH

at least Val can move on to not tunneling anymore

so thats a positive bc thats prob a t/t tunnel

I don't see sufficient justification for this read.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Asphodelus

This also applies to BigTerp but they explained their vote in better detail and it wasn't just for the hammer - if abdbla/Take was town/town, why would Aspho scummily hammer to draw attention to herself? Surely the information we got yesterday was that abdbla was saved.

[furtiveglance]

Before at all going into the information presented, just know that it is completely without context. Anyways...

I think I should lead with the vote-chart, because to be honest, I can't get jack from it. Might be worthless, as far as information goes. Made by drawing an arrow once every time someone appears in a votecount voting for another person, with the arrow drawn from the votee to the voted.

Spoiler: vote-chart

There's some things that should be immediately obvious to people who have read the thread, but furtive hasn't actually voted anyone but me, I've practically only voted CPB since the start of the game, and Italiano, I and T02 as the centerpoints of scum attention, though with a fair bit of votes thrown Asph's way.

The interesting one, I think, is the wagon-chart. Made by drawing a line between each person who is voting for the same person each vote count, blue lines for the "not voting" wagon, and discounting the first votecount.

Spoiler: wagon-chart

Of interest here is how the network ends up forming. You might notice that there's a thin web of connections between everyone on the left side, but that's only because of the last vote count, where all the wagons were consolidated. Prior to that, TTTT had only ever voted on the same wagon as me (Corn) and Val only ever voted with Italiano (Both Asphodel and T02). As for TTTT/Malakittens, I'm fairly sure that the reason there is that they were inactive with their vote on Corn, similar to me. I'm not sure I can extend quite the same amount of grace to the two of them, and I already wasn't very keen on Val. This might be confirmation bias, so make of it what you will.

Why aren’t you voting for her if it’s incredibly scummy?

I'm having trouble seeing exactly what scum!Asph gets from this, and I wanted to do VCA first to see if anything useful shook out. The only way I see this working out for scum!Asph is if the scumpartner is incredibly confident in their ability to push to the endgame and win. It seems unlikely, considering they'd have to dodge the jailkeeper three(?) times. I've got a solve in mind that would make sense of it, but it's

very

farfetched.

First, we have to assume that we're actually in a goon x2 + jailkeeper game. Italiano, on the ropes and about to be lim'd, guesses at the tracker claim because it's a safeclaim 1/3rd of the time. It works. He claims to have been roleblocked to set up that it's actually tracker + jailkeeper game, with the eventual jailkeeper death strengthening that claim. Italiano coasts to victory on me being mislim'd while the jailkeeper doesn't want to target Italiano because he's the tracker.

It's the only way I can make sense of scum!Asph. Alternatively, if Terp has us played for fools, then they deserve to win, honestly. The claim that it's because we're a scumteam is insulting, particularly because of how stupid the move would be in that case.

I like the concept of vote count analysis, but it requires you to actually draw concrete conclusions that result in suspicions and votes. There seems to be a level of self-awareness about how meaningless these charts are. It looks really LAMIST and ethereal to me. Separately, the Jailkeeper vs 2 Goons theory might worry me a bit if I thought you were town, but I'll ignore it for now, I think it's just pointless to think about that now as we still have a miscondemn.
As for the 'I/we would never do that as scum, how stupid would that be?' argument, I've seen it a lot from scum and it's never convincing.

[furtiveglance]

I can see why you think that after Take's flip. As for me, I wanted abdbla yesterday so I'm feeling more optimistic. There's potential for my day 1 reads of abdbla/Take/Val containing 2 scum being correct, but more likely I townread scum day 1 - I'm looking at Aspho or maybe Mala. The gut punch would be if you had lucked out with a fake Tracker claim or BigTerp's been having me on, but I don't think those are very likely.

[furtiveglance]

I can see why you think that after Take's flip. As for me, I wanted abdbla yesterday so I'm feeling more optimistic. There's potential for my day 1 reads of abdbla/Take/Val containing 2 scum being correct, but more likely I townread scum day 1 - I'm looking at Aspho or maybe Mala. The gut punch would be if you had lucked out with a fake Tracker claim or BigTerp's been having me on, but I don't think those are very likely.

What's your case on Val?

In a vacuum has felt less scummy and grown into the game since yesterday. It's just that I'm pretty sure abdbla is scum and Val was on the other wagon.

[furtiveglance]

somehow Mala is less town that Aspho to me. Since replacing TTTT (who I was pretty sure was town), Mala has gradually withered away the townread. Voting for Take and saying I'll chill with my homie Val or something seemed a bit weird at the time, then they called Val/Take town/town after Take flipped. Mala could be pocketing Val.

Asphodelus had a really weird day 1 - felt almost too weird to be scum, + the accidental hammer yesterday. That hammer definitely wasn't calculated, and I think scum might be more concious of the VC. One of those where they could be scummy town or just scum playing in a really daring way.

Sorry if these thoughts seem confused. The main thing is flip abdbla - hopefully red, then look at the nightkill/assess things tomorrow. I'm pretty sure abdbla will flip scum because there was a lot of indirect opposition to them being voted yesterday, and no one's vocally defending them today.

[furtiveglance]

I can see why you think that after Take's flip. As for me, I wanted abdbla yesterday so I'm feeling more optimistic. There's potential for my day 1 reads of abdbla/Take/Val containing 2 scum being correct, but more likely I townread scum day 1 - I'm looking at Aspho or maybe Mala. The gut punch would be if you had lucked out with a fake Tracker claim or BigTerp's been having me on, but I don't think those are very likely.

What's your case on Val?

In a vacuum has felt less scummy and grown into the game since yesterday.

It's just that I'm pretty sure abdbla is scum and Val was on the other wagon.

I agree with the bolded part. For the second part, Mala and Aspho where also on the other wagon. What are your thoughts on them?

What do you think of Val/Mala/Aspho?

There's definitely scum in there - who is your best guess?

[furtiveglance]

somehow Mala is less town that Aspho to me. Since replacing TTTT (who I was pretty sure was town), Mala has gradually withered away the townread. Voting for Take and saying I'll chill with my homie Val or something seemed a bit weird at the time, then they called Val/Take town/town after Take flipped. Mala could be pocketing Val.

Asphodelus had a really weird day 1 - felt almost too weird to be scum, + the accidental hammer yesterday. That hammer definitely wasn't calculated, and I think scum might be more concious of the VC. One of those where they could be scummy town or just scum playing in a really daring way.

Sorry if these thoughts seem confused. The main thing is flip abdbla - hopefully red, then look at the nightkill/assess things tomorrow. I'm pretty sure abdbla will flip scum because there was a lot of indirect opposition to them being voted yesterday, and no one's vocally defending them today.

Thanks for the response. Pretty good stuff here and I don't find it confusing.

That hammer definitely wasn't calculated, and I think scum might be more concious of the VC. One of those where they could be scummy town or just scum playing in a really daring way.

This same thought has been in the back of my mind as well. What if Aspho's vote was a true intentional hammer? I still find it REALLY odd that they wanted to get Take to E-1 though, for reasons I've already mentioned. So, either way, that vote on Take at the end seems really scummy to me.

Thing is there are only 2 scum. so abdbla/Val/Mala/Aspho has at least 2 town somehow. Hard to find them at the moment

[furtiveglance]

On that note, Furtive, would you consider moving your vote off abdbla here, at least temporarily?

We all know your stance on that lim, but there is potential scum!abdbla could self-hammer here and I don't want to hand scum that advantage if it's not necessary.

I don't think self-hammering helps scum that much. I'm not going to push another vote today so I'll keep my vote where it is.

[furtiveglance]

Because abd already claimed, and I want to hammer them. There's no logic to self-hammering so this conversation is pointless.

[furtiveglance]

Just getting this out of the way, but I'm not self-hammering.

To be clear, though, a mislim today puts us at elo, right?

How could you not know this? It's clear that you do, and are trying to make us associate your elimination with a mislim. Nice try

[furtiveglance]

What are you even saying here? How am I 'sticking it to you?' I'm just voting my scumread.

[furtiveglance]

I think it's a good thing Aspho claimed. Makes the scumpool abdbla/Val/Malakittens/BigTerp. Val and Malakittens wouldn't pair so openly as scum. I can't see any pair that doesn't involve abdbla. It's also noteable that we're meeting a kind of vague resistance with this abdbla vote for the second day running. Hard to pinpoint the partner among 2 cautious townies.

[furtiveglance]

The Italiano/Asph solve haunts me - which, for the record, equally possible at the moment, considering it had to coexist with a non-jailkeeper setup

Assuming this a typo, because it is an

im

possible solve.
UNVOTE:

...yes, yes it is.

sometimes the brain works in mysterious ways.

I think this was quite smart. Instead of engaging in WIFOM about your possible partners, you've sussed the 2 (pretty much) confirmed players. Nice

[furtiveglance]

The Italiano/Asph solve haunts me - which, for the record, equally possible at the moment, considering it had to coexist with a non-jailkeeper setup

Assuming this a typo, because it is an

im

possible solve.
UNVOTE:

...yes, yes it is.

sometimes the brain works in mysterious ways.

I think this was quite smart. Instead of engaging in WIFOM about your possible partners, you've sussed the 2 (pretty much) confirmed players. Nice

Okay, I'm well aware that I look scummy. There's at least one more scum, though. Who do you think my partner is? Assuming, in the far fetched land of impossibility, that I flip green, who do you think the scumteam is?

Regardless of your alignment I owe you an answer to this.

Right now I'm running on abdbla/Malakittens. The Take vote yesterday was scummy, I don't think Terp would have stayed on you if you were paired yesterday. The Val/Take shittunneling seemed to be more authentic than Malakittens' reasoning, which was a townread on Val (chill with homie flashback). So I think that doubled as a save partner/pocket town play. But I'm not set on Malakittens. I am set on you being scum. In some far-fetched alternate reality in which you were town (lol), if you really want to keep using this very theoretical line of defence, I would have to re-evaluate the game completely. Like I said before I don't think Val/Mala works unless they're both playing very level 1, Mala pushing Terp doesn't really look paired either so it would have to be Val/BigTerp in that case... but that's not the case.

[furtiveglance]

You've scumread abdbla for the majority of the game though, and put votes behind it.

[furtiveglance]

Initial thoughts: apologies to abdbla. I was convinced they were scum, haven't really seen a town/town split day 1 before and I based my entire read of the game on a false assumption. My bad on that one.
As for where we are now: It doesn't look great for us. I have to make one correct townread out of three players. The good news is that for today, I just have to push one correct scumread. I can see either town!BigTerp or town!Val. I can't see town!Malakittens.

Main thing to note is that we shouldn't quickvote, as scum can then hammer.

[furtiveglance]

Scumcase on Malakittens:
422 gives townreads on 3 players who all flipped town. I don't like that.

423 then calls Val 'prob town'. I have two theories. One is that Val is Mala's scumbuddy, and they're slipping them in with the other townreads, and the other is just a basic pocket. I've spoken about 548 a couple of times, it fits with the latter theory.

I don't like the self-awareness of 555.

586 reads fake to me, they obviously posted that to convey a new realisation, so it's sneakily LAMIST.

The latest post, 745, the comment about Val seems disingenuous and I don't like the persistent townread, especially as at this point your poe is literally 3 players. Why would a town player be so sure of a townread at this stage?

[furtiveglance]

Thoughts on BigTerp:

236 would imply that scum!Terp's partner is Val, for the awkward null read due to low post count.

Then again in 362 Val is their top townread.

What I don't like about BigTerp this game is they seemed slightly more independent of thought in the previous game we played together. For the most part they've shadowed my reads - e.g abdbla, but all the while keeping me at arm's length in their reads. Makes me think they're trying to make me want their townread.......

[furtiveglance]

Thoughts on Val:

629 and the panic about abdbla (town) self-hammering seems LAMIST.

Was initially against the abdbla vote then ended up going along with it. +scum after the flip.

In general the tone/style is different to 2088 in which Val was scum, but tonal indicators aren't always foolproof.

[furtiveglance]

I heard you don't hold a lot of faith in those.

[furtiveglance]

In that game I was more accurate with my pushes. In this one I led on abdbla and was very wrong. #respectthedead

[furtiveglance]

You've scumread abdbla for the majority of the game though, and put votes behind it.

Going back, I find this post from Furtive interesting. In a previous post he pointed out how scum!BigTerp probably wouldn't be on abdbla at the end of day 1. I pointed out that I wasn't, and the above was Furtive's response. Possibly trying to keep me linked with the runup and subsequent miselim of abdbla?

abdbla was my push, we all know that. It's factual that you supported the push though, don't try and wash your hands of it and scapegoat me. I'm considering the possibility of you being the one other VT here, but posts like these are making me question that.

Besides, you said Mala was your #1 scumread right now just after I said pretty much the same thing. I can't see a natural progression in your thinking that led you to Mala being #1 here, and that's what's bugging me. What changed since 721, when you said if abdbla flips green you'd have me #1? I'm worried it could be a strategic decision rather than a genuine change in your thinking.

[furtiveglance]

Besides, you said Mala was your #1 scumread right now just after I said pretty much the same thing. I can't see a natural progression in your thinking that led you to Mala being #1 here, and that's what's bugging me. What changed since 721, when you said if abdbla flips green you'd have me #1? I'm worried it could be a strategic decision rather than a genuine change in your thinking.

I realized I didn't really specifically address this. The thing that caused me to flip flop you and Mala, more than once even, is the distance you both put away from the game towards the end of day 2. I was confident the lack of participation meant mafia was happy with where the votes currently were. You two were the least active. Then abdbla post this 726 which completely flipped my thoughts on them being scum. ZERO reason for them to defend my thinking at that point in the game. I had a hard time, and still do somewhat, thinking scum!Furtive would push a miselim so hard 2 days in a row. So that brings me back around to Mala.

I understand this thinking coming from town, but also from mafia jumping off a town wagon last minute. As for the feeling about you copying my thoughts, it was partly the way you formatted your reads - Mala top scumread and the other two (me and val) joint second - that mirrored my posting early today. Why didn't you go for a ranking (1,2,3) instead?

[furtiveglance]

Just caught up with the thread and I'm now worried Mala is bussing Terp. Look at the way Mala has parked on Terp being public enemy number 1 for the past couple of days, and hasn't really pivoted from that, but now declares intent to vote me. It looks like scum 1) going for the quick win by trying to miscondemn me and 2) looking distanced with Terp in the event that one of them flips today.

Having said that, I might just be paranoid of the only two active players right now. We should definitely wait for Val to return before placing votes down. What I've noticed from experience when there's 2 scum in 5 is that mafia will go out of their way to look unpaired. So the consensus scumread will usually be mafia. Not always, but most of the time.

Wrt to this game in particular, I'm increasingly confident of Malakittens being scum - to the point where I can pretty much dismiss Terp/Val as the solve. The way they've lurked/coasted all game casually calling town town, and then crawled out of the woodwork at this pivotal stage with some really strong opinions, is textbook scum play.

We should probably let Asphodelus use today like a day vig shot - i.e. no one else vote before they do today. I'll repeat that one town voting for me (or another town) puts us into autoloss.

[furtiveglance]

If the only criticism levelled at me is that I said "rip abdbla", I think I can knock this one for a home run. In Newbie 2092, we miscondemned Meg day 1, but I didn't push hard for that elimination. In this game I was convinced abdbla was scum and was wrong, so I commented on it.

It looks to me that Malakittens 1) decided they would push me today then 2) came up with a reason afterwards. I can't see a natural thought progression from Malakittens this game, apart from a lazy pocket of Val throughout the game which I guess explains me and BigTerp as Mala's scumteam.

It might be confirmation bias at this point because I really want to be right, but it looks to me that Malakittens has played a pretty coasty game, and suddenly sprang into life with an agenda at Elo.

As for Malakitten's voting shenanigans today, it just looks like a ploy to 1) create confusion/doubt about the possibility of a BigTerp/Val scumteam (which I think is Malakittens' partner paired with a townie) and 2) to appear town by being very outwardly nervous and jumpy about the consequences of this vote.

If I were to vote today, I would vote for Malakittens. But as I stated earlier, the best way to play here is to give Asphodelus the decision.

[furtiveglance]

I didn't sit on the fence about Asphodelus - they were firmly in my poe pre-claim.

[furtiveglance]

I'm tracking Mala/Val interactions and it looks like a textbook scum/town pocket. It doesn't really look scum/scum.

423 - Val is 'prob town'.

548 - Val is a 'homie', votes with Val.

590 - Val/Take was a 't/t tunnel'

685 - Val is 'more likely town'

745 - 'I really don’t think it’s Val. Maybe it’s my heart that doesn’t want it to be Val tho'. This is the most interesting to me - It's the start of ELO and town!Malakittens has a poe of 3 players. Immediately they are set on a pair of me/Terp. No rethinking, no ISOing. That's not how town play. It's also worth noting that this comment attempts to make us consider town!Malakittens being pocketed by scum!Val - I think deliberately.

This is done more explicitly in 778 - 'I really don't see Val as scum unless im just pocketed hardcore and/or biased'

Town!Malakittens wouldn't be as confident on this read, nor sustain it throughout the game even at Elo.

[furtiveglance]

The question is did you even try to see a town!Mala??
Because all you did to line up elims with my name on it until now

Either you are in a rose colored glasses when it comes to my slot

Or wanted to set me up for the last elim and protect your partner

I genuinely don't understand this post.

What are you asking me here?

[furtiveglance]

Sorry to hear you had a bad day.

[furtiveglance]

I laid my newbie scum-text-book tell regarding FG p out p well, in addition,to them acting diff.

VOTE: fg

screw it, if i'm wrong, i'm wrong, but i think i'm right

this is gonna prove FG scum if
Val/BigT dont quickhammer rn

Man, I don't know what to think about this. On one hand Mala could be on to something here, but it seems like a HUGE risk to take. If Mala is town and guesses wrong, mafia would come in and quick hammer town!Furtive ending the game. Easy peasy, game over. I don't necessarily buy the excuse that all players aren't active at the same time so there was no quick hammer. As busy as I was last night, I still checked in and saw the vote between the time Mala posted and redacted it (4 hours). Also, it would only take one scum buddy to see the vote, PM their partner (I think that's allowed?) and their partner would get a notification of the PM and they could coordinate the quick hammer. 4 hours seems like plenty of time for that to happen. So, Mala could've proven Furtive scum here.

The other scenario is Mala/Furtive scum team and they are essentially bussing each other. Mala lays down the first vote on Furtive, explains how a non-quick hammer confirms Furtive as scum, there are 2 more that agree and scum!Furtive gets elim'd. This would essentially clear Mala for day 4. Bold strategy, but Mala did mention their "experience" earlier. So not such a far fetched idea coming from an experienced player. The other end of it is if the bus of Furtive doesn't pan out, Furtive busses Mala and after scum!Mala gets elim'd Furtive is pretty much in the clear for day 4.

The second scenario above is seemingly more and more plausible the more I think about it.

You actually didn't consider scum!Mala voting for town!me, which of course has no consequence for Malakittens. Was there a reason you didn't consider this?

[furtiveglance]

I'm tracking Mala/Val interactions and it looks like a textbook scum/town pocket. It doesn't really look scum/scum.

423 - Val is 'prob town'.

548 - Val is a 'homie', votes with Val.

590 - Val/Take was a 't/t tunnel'

685 - Val is 'more likely town'

745 - 'I really don’t think it’s Val. Maybe it’s my heart that doesn’t want it to be Val tho'. This is the most interesting to me - It's the start of ELO and town!Malakittens has a poe of 3 players. Immediately they are set on a pair of me/Terp. No rethinking, no ISOing. That's not how town play. It's also worth noting that this comment attempts to make us consider town!Malakittens being pocketed by scum!Val - I think deliberately.

This is done more explicitly in 778 - 'I really don't see Val as scum unless im just pocketed hardcore and/or biased'

Town!Malakittens wouldn't be as confident on this read, nor sustain it throughout the game even at Elo.

I agree with all of this. Which puts yourself as Mala's scum buddy.

I went back through and cannot peg a Furtive/Val scum team. If that's the team, then well done!!

And from my point of you it's Mala/Terp most likely. That said, I have seen open pairing before. I just don't think Val would be comfortable with it given the way he played in 2088.

[furtiveglance]

Asphodelus has requested replacement. The deadline will be paused until a replacement is found.

I hope everything is alright with Aspho!! But what a terrible time to get a replacement.

Agreed. I don't pity Asphodelus' replacement. Catboi, will the deadline for voting today be extended or stay the same?

[furtiveglance]

*I don't envy/do pity the replacement.

[furtiveglance]

Welcome to the game Daniel. Are you seeing the elusive Bigterp/Val scumteam?! How does that fit with Malakittens' vote antics earlier?
What don't you like about my Mala/Terp solve?

[furtiveglance]

Wow. I don't like this post. That said I'm not sure how I'd react if I was scumread town at Elo - probably not like this.

[furtiveglance]

No quickhammer from me obviously.

[furtiveglance]

Also on mobile. We have 5 days, I'd like to hear TistDaniel's thoughts on Val. I need to rexamine the Mala/Val scenario.

[furtiveglance]

Or proved you are scum with one of BigT & FG

Hmmm.....I'm slightly suspicious of Nashville Dreams...they've really taken coasting to the max this game, 1 post in 35 pages....

[furtiveglance]

Hey guys, I've seen that about 5 pages have been added, I'll be on later to digest and start posting. In a few hours' time.

[furtiveglance]

Malakittens shall we talk until BigTerp gets here?

I think it's you at the moment.

[furtiveglance]

Why not

[furtiveglance]

That's not really what happened. You started yesterday on BigTerp, then parked your vote on me for a bit, then voted Val when the Jailkeeper scumcased him.

Before yesterday you and Val were thick as thieves, so that kind of turnaround in relations makes sense if you're partners in my eyes.

Is your only defence that you voted Val? Or can you expand?

[furtiveglance]

TistDaniel also thought you were town. I know he saw BigTerp/Val. Similarly to you, I never saw why he townread you.

[furtiveglance]

As for the vote count (pretty it may be), does that come with any analysis/game related conclusions?

Or is it just a chance to colour yourself green?

[furtiveglance]

Terp's hammer obviously makes sense from a town pov and a scum pov.

Val did some similar posting as outted mafia in 2088

[furtiveglance]

Ngl: VC even points slighty to you. My vote on you and you not be hammered also makes me think its you, but then again Val & BigT were never on at the same time.

This is definitely a big reason for me thinking it's you, but it's probably not the biggest reason for me.

I'm trying to see town!Mala townreading scum all game and voting them at Elo, but it's quite difficult.

The most likely explanation to me is open pairing all game followed by bussing when neither me or Terp was looking likely to be the elim.

Can you explain your thought process regarding Val throughout the game?

[furtiveglance]

I'm sorry when a fresh player comes in and opens a perspective of the game that you think your initial reads might be wrong.

Again, I was certain that you were the partner between either BigT or Val, it was trying to find which one was your partner, but it's weird that Val started to full push me when i started to push you.

Changing reads is fine. It's just that I can't see a natural progression in your thought process. You went into day 3 scumreading BigTerp the most, then voted for me (town) at Elo instead of voting with the confirmed like I said we should, then voted Val when Daniel came in and scumread Val.

Now you're saying you consistently scumread me but weren't sure whether it was BigTerp or Val as the partner.

That's not what I can see in your posts at the time.

[furtiveglance]

I never said I wasn't open to changing my mind, I was just being open with my thinking.

[furtiveglance]

Hey guys, I just got on.

[furtiveglance]

Val/Mala is unlikely. Even at ELO with 2 mafia remaining, I wouldn't find it crazy that mafia would have their vote on their partner. Starting the wagon though? Seems pretty bold. Val also started with the first vote on Mala day 3. They both bussed each other the remainder of day 3. I can't imagine a scum team doing this. Also, the below. scum!Mala would have a much easier time getting a miselim on Furtive than Val here. So why risk voting your partner here?

This paragraph is full of inaccuracies. You're either misremembering the events of yesterday or pushing an agenda. It's hard to tell which, but either way you should be more careful with the truth.

Look at Malakittens' 775 at the start of day 3. They have you/me as the scumteam. This makes perfect sense in a Val/Mala world. They then voted for me for about 4 hours. Neither of us posted during this time. TistDaniel then arrives with 849. Val is his biggest scumread by far.

At this point, it's clear that Val will be the elimination. At Elo, town always votes with the confirmed.

Then in 872 Malakittens votes for Val.

To argue that Malakittens led on Val is true IF you look at only vote counts. But it's basic strategy to vote with the confirmed player at Elo, so as soon as TistDaniel called the scumread on Val, he was a goner.

Val/BigTerp - Here 897 is mainly why this team is also highly unlikely. There isn't evidence of us both being on at the same time, but that vote was up for over 4 hours. Seems highly unlikely that a mafia quick hammer couldn't be coordinated in that time. Also, I was town reading Val HARD, and wasn't afraid to show it. Val seemed to lap that right up with many references to their town read of me, even to the point of calling me the towniest newbtown they've ever seen. I realize now, they were pocketing me and it nearly got a miselim of Mala for a mafia win. We also hadn't voted for one another up until I hammered Val to end day 3. I don't see mafia separating themselves from each other this hard all game. You would think there would be something done (a vote, an FOS, etc.) at some point in the game to look back on in this exact scenario to say "see, I voted Val there", or, "look, I had them pegged as scum day 2".

I don't like the way you're talking about Malakittens' vote on me. It doesn't rule out you/Val, because that logic assumes a world where we're always available. If you weren't near a device for that time, bad luck. So I'm ignoring that argument. As for how I feel about you specifically right now, I'm conflicted. You've played a very steady and reasonable game - compared to Malakittens' voting antics yesterday - and also maintained posting level throughout, whereas Malakittens has really stepped it up since the start of Day 3. But right now you're doing a lot of logical gymnastics, going back and forth on reads, and seem to be itching to vote at Elo. It just doesn't seem in line with your character so far this game.

Val/Furtive - I honestly expected Furtive to come in, hammer town!Val and win the game. Even if Val flipped green, it would look as if I was the partner obviously not wanting to hammer. When Furtive didn't hammer, I knew they were scum. That eliminated a Mala/Furtive team, which was my #1 solve at the time.

That leaves a Mala/Val team or a Furtive/Val team. Already seeing the Mala/Val team as highly unlikely, as I already described, Furtive/Val is the only remaining possibility.

I came on and didn't hammer because I didn't see the voting. I literally saw that pages had been added and didn't read any. Then when I went to post later the thread was locked. As for the bolded sentence - I stated above that bussing is a near certainty at Elo - if the scumteam openly pairs they look horribly exposed. Besides, as soon as the conftown stated intent to vote Val, he was gone. That's what you should be realising if you're town. The fact this hasn't occured to you is very questionable indeed.

Furtive - What's your case on Mala?
Mala - What's your case on Furtive?
Both - What's your case on Me?

I'll get to scumcases later, but right now my thoughts are far from locked in and might depend on our conversation today. I won't be ready to vote for a few days.

I'm ready to vote Furtive and will need a LOT of convincing to change my mind.

[furtiveglance]

Ok I failed with quoting.

[furtiveglance]

Malakittens - explain your vote count analysis.

[furtiveglance]

Current readslist is something like this:

BigTerp

Malakittens

[furtiveglance]

In all seriousness I am working on a massive post with thoughts on both of you.

[furtiveglance]

I look forward to it.

[furtiveglance]

I'm calling BS on this one. You seem like a good player at this game who is typically in tune with what is going on and wouldn't just come on to check in without being aware of the vote count. Again, I don't expect anyone to blindly follow the conformed town vote, ESPECIALLY at ELO when the game is on the line. I've already explained, several times, why

I think Mala's vote on Val shows that they are much less likely the scum partner than yourself. Keep planting those seeds of doubt though.

My post was literally a prod dodger because it had been a while, I was in a hurry to get somewhere. Even if you thought that was BS for whatever reason - due to me seeming like a good player (thanks) - if I had looked at the vote count, I would have hammered. If I was scum, if I had looked at the vote count, I would have hammered. The fact that a conftown is on a player and no hammer from other players means they're outted mafia. Do you think that I wouldn't realise this, or realise it but still try to cling on as scum? If I'm scum there and I look at the votes, I'll happily hammer for some towncred. I really don't get your argument here at all. As for the bolded, I'm just really hoping you're not town, because if you are you're telling me that bussing never crossed your mind

even in a situation in which your partner is doomed?

[furtiveglance]

part of me just doesn't want to effort anymore and vote FG because the more that I'm looking at this posts the more i'm nervous that i'm wrong, but i really feel like I'm right aboout FG!scum.

just cuz this play right now feeels icky

I am considering you town all the time. How do I feel icky?

[furtiveglance]

Now, while going through Furtive's ISO I noticed that during day 3 they had hardly any solid reads/feels on who was town and who was scum, minus reading Mala as scum, who conveniently was also being pushed by Val. What's even more interesting is how Furtive keeps mentioning how we should follow Aspho/Daniels lead, because they are confirmed town. But once Daniel subbed in and started fingering Val, Furtive didn't follow. Furtive suggested here807 and here783 that we let Aspho decide the vote, even suggesting that we treat it as a "day vig shot". Aspho was fingering myself and Mala. Once Daniel subbed in and starting fingering Val, not another word from Furtive about following the confirmed town's lead. In fact, there is evidence that Furtive was quietly defending Val up until Daniel hard scum read them. Furtive, why didn't you follow Daniel's read/lead like you said everyone should be doing? Daniel was much more confident in their read(s) than Aspho as well, which further illustrates you were deliberately ignoring them. Highly suspicious.

Can you quote some posts in which I said we shouldn't vote with the confirmed? Or was I just not there? I'm starting you think you weren't there yesterday.....

[furtiveglance]

I'm calling BS on this one. You seem like a good player at this game who is typically in tune with what is going on and wouldn't just come on to check in without being aware of the vote count. Again, I don't expect anyone to blindly follow the conformed town vote, ESPECIALLY at ELO when the game is on the line. I've already explained, several times, why

I think Mala's vote on Val shows that they are much less likely the scum partner than yourself. Keep planting those seeds of doubt though.

My post was literally a prod dodger because it had been a while, I was in a hurry to get somewhere. Even if you thought that was BS for whatever reason - due to me seeming like a good player (thanks) - if I had looked at the vote count, I would have hammered. If I was scum, if I had looked at the vote count, I would have hammered. The fact that a conftown is on a player and no hammer from other players means they're outted mafia. Do you think that I wouldn't realise this, or realise it but still try to cling on as scum? If I'm scum there and I look at the votes, I'll happily hammer for some towncred. I really don't get your argument here at all. As for the bolded, I'm just really hoping you're not town, because if you are you're telling me that bussing never crossed your mind

even in a situation in which your partner is doomed?

Exactly my point. You've never felt the need to come in and check-in nor prod dodge. Plus, you were 6+ hours away from a prod. You're not convincing me that you truly missed the vote count. I'm not buying it.

I've already explained your last bolded point. Yes, I do believe bussing is a possibility in the situation we were in. But not the way it happened. If Mala was scum they had a MUCH better chance of convincing me to vote you instead of you voting me and certainly instead of me voting Val. That's obvious. So why start the train on their partner? I could see scum!Mala hoping on the wagon when they felt there was no other choice, but they didn't once try to convince me to vote Furtive.

Are you forgetting that they voted me twice yesterday before voting Val?

[furtiveglance]

Now, while going through Furtive's ISO I noticed that during day 3 they had hardly any solid reads/feels on who was town and who was scum, minus reading Mala as scum, who conveniently was also being pushed by Val. What's even more interesting is how Furtive keeps mentioning how we should follow Aspho/Daniels lead, because they are confirmed town. But once Daniel subbed in and started fingering Val, Furtive didn't follow. Furtive suggested here807 and here783 that we let Aspho decide the vote, even suggesting that we treat it as a "day vig shot". Aspho was fingering myself and Mala. Once Daniel subbed in and starting fingering Val, not another word from Furtive about following the confirmed town's lead. In fact, there is evidence that Furtive was quietly defending Val up until Daniel hard scum read them. Furtive, why didn't you follow Daniel's read/lead like you said everyone should be doing? Daniel was much more confident in their read(s) than Aspho as well, which further illustrates you were deliberately ignoring them. Highly suspicious.

Can you quote some posts in which I said we shouldn't vote with the confirmed? Or was I just not there? I'm starting you think you weren't there yesterday.....

No, I can't. I never said that you said we shouldn't. It's the fact that you stopped suggesting we should!!!

BECAUSE I WAS NOT ONLINE.

[furtiveglance]

Now, while going through Furtive's ISO I noticed that during day 3 they had hardly any solid reads/feels on who was town and who was scum, minus reading Mala as scum, who conveniently was also being pushed by Val. What's even more interesting is how Furtive keeps mentioning how we should follow Aspho/Daniels lead, because they are confirmed town. But once Daniel subbed in and started fingering Val, Furtive didn't follow. Furtive suggested here807 and here783 that we let Aspho decide the vote, even suggesting that we treat it as a "day vig shot". Aspho was fingering myself and Mala. Once Daniel subbed in and starting fingering Val, not another word from Furtive about following the confirmed town's lead. In fact, there is evidence that Furtive was quietly defending Val up until Daniel hard scum read them. Furtive, why didn't you follow Daniel's read/lead like you said everyone should be doing? Daniel was much more confident in their read(s) than Aspho as well, which further illustrates you were deliberately ignoring them. Highly suspicious.

Can you quote some posts in which I said we shouldn't vote with the confirmed? Or was I just not there? I'm starting you think you weren't there yesterday.....

You're ignoring my question though. Why didn't you follow Daniel's lead, like you suggested we all should, when they started hard fingering Val? You were pretty adamant that we do that with Aspho. What changed when Daniel subbed in? Only thing I see is the reads.

856 and 857 are my last game related posts on Day 3.

[furtiveglance]

part of me just doesn't want to effort anymore and vote FG because the more that I'm looking at this posts the more i'm nervous that i'm wrong, but i really feel like I'm right aboout FG!scum.

just cuz this play right now feeels icky

I am considering you town all the time. How do I feel icky?

you have been calling me scum the whole time, please tell me how you have an open mindset and showing me you think i could be town

I have sorted as you as scum most of the game yes. But everything needs to be re-evaluated now, which is what I'm doing.

[furtiveglance]

Malakittens voted me at Elo twice. You're saying they didn't push me very hard. I don't understand.

[furtiveglance]

It was Terp the whole time.........*Owen Wilson wow*.

I don't envy your position Malakittens. I have POV knowledge that it's him, but I will try to show you why.

Terp had Val null in 236, then later called Val town agreeing with Corn, subtlely giving him towncred.

Terp also shadowed my push on abdbla all game, openly townread Val and pushed against TistDaniel wanting to vote him yesterday.

Today he's made some bizarre leaps of logic and was pretty clearly eager to vote early on - it's different to how he played previously this game.

You can also clearly see in his early posting that he's appealing to you - he knows you're town.

I know you'll be thinking about the 4 hour window but it's just lucky they weren't on at the same time.

[furtiveglance]

I'll be around for any questions you have

[furtiveglance]

TistDaniel really is a strong player then.

[furtiveglance]

Well played town. Val, you were scum MVP. Good game all round

[furtiveglance]

T02: In the nicest way possible, consider replacing out. Either that or change your attitude because it's making the game less fun.

How is this an acceptable thing to say? In a newbie game too.
In the nicest way possible, fuck both you and val and I never want to play with any of you ever again.

I'm sorry.

[furtiveglance]

I should have realised that was wrong to say.

[furtiveglance]

I kinda thought Aspho was PR day 1 based on coasting/confident tone, but Corn was still a good nightkill for being townread. Maybe at 7 I should have counterclaimed Aspho. I considered it, but they had softed quite well. If I'd known how much would be read into Day 3, I would have led on Val. I just thought people would be more wary of bussing at 5 than they were.