Newbie 764 - Game Over

[Ojanen]

Hello.

vote: Josh Lyman

Because West Wing is awesome.

[Ojanen]

waves to Chaos40

Here I am. I actually posted already, just above your first post, though I admit my opening didn't really amount to any content and is thus forgettable.
Still, attentiveness is good.

I found Korts's accusation of Kairyuu to be fabricated from air, although I appreciate the effort to get the conversation going. The vote itself was actually accompagned with an arbitrary reason (voting for the person before him). Or perhaps our definitions of arbitrary differ, Korts (random=no reason, arbitrary=meaningless reason)?

[Ojanen]

No, you misread me. What I was saying is that Kairyuu explicitly stated that he was random voting when it was clear that he was, as evidenced by the following quote:

Random vote: Chaos40

for being the last person to post before me.

Oh. So you mean spelling out the word "random" can be a subtle means to psychologically undermine the process of voting, even though we're in this beginning stage of the game?

[Ojanen]

Why did you unvote Kairyuu, Infinis? Your comment attached to the unvote doesn't explain it, it seems to say more that you disagree with the stance Kairyuu took to Chaos40's first vote.

I think I can now understand Korts's objection to Kairyuu's word "random" from post 25, though I still find the difference in nuance to be extremely small. (the weight of the feeling he originally expressed was "I hatehatehate when somebody states that their "random" vote is random", which I guess puzzled me a bit, but maybe accents are needed to get reactions?)

I agree that Japles needs to speak up.
Also want to hear Bekkatha voice some opinion (and Josh Lyman, but I remember she said she was V/LA).

[Ojanen]

Yes but that tells us that you hadn't payed any attention to the discussion before, Japles, looks like you still haven't. If you "always do that" then you would have been better off stating why you disagree with Kairyuu right away.
I'm kind of getting pseudo-participation vibes from you, which I don't like. On the other hand, by not stating even the silly reason you actually did the opposite to fitting in when you look at the conversation, so maybe slightly more inattentive than scummy - anyway not pro-town so far.
So would you mind taking a stance in the Kairyuu vs. Korts thing? You're just replying to messages to you so far. Gonna have to

FoS Japles

at this point.

[Ojanen]

Also, I'm not unvoting yet. It seems to me that the RVS is all the more silly if everyone pulls their votes at first sight of serious discussion. I looked at a couple of games and now I see it's not uncommon day 1 culture. Wouldn't the votes mean a bit more and be a little more likely to trigger some reactions if they didn't evaporate so easily? I know we have now some material already but I what's the benefit of unvoting if you don't want to change you're vote yet? That's kind of why I questioned you earlier, Infinis, seemed to me like you were eager to unvote which could have some implications.

Also, I do see the Chaos40 case now that you guys have pointed out that the unvoting wasn't the initial reaction.

Thank you for the Tarhalindur tell recommendation, Kairyuu. The link wasn't quite right so for any other searching souls it's here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... dard_Tells

[Ojanen]

Umm, Japles, you kind of answered beside the question.
Meanigfulness of random vs. arbitrary was the thing.

Reread and wanted to comment to this:

Personally, it seems to me that quite a lot of discussion has begun in response to my unvote, hardly killing the discussion. Granted, I've become a main target in the eyes of one of our ICs, a dangerous position to be in, but it seems an acceptable trade to get discussion going in earnest.

It is true that conversation was generated from it, but I don't think that you can imply credit for it this way, I don't think it's something you could have predicted at the time.

[Ojanen]

This has certainly flared up.

For the gambit I think I lean on the side of it not really giving substantial scumtells:

What actually forms the divide between myself and Korts in this case is the fact that I was deliberately acting mildly scummy to get Korts to criticize me (of course, the 'random vote' issue was unintentional, but it served as a good starting point). Someone paying attention to that, and to what Korts was saying, would, as a townie (not 100%, but my estimate is that it's better than 60%) side with Korts and find me scummy, possibly even enough for a vote. A scum, on the other hand, would probably be more focused on the fact that I had a decent case on an easy townie target, and would side with me in order to have that route available to them in the event that the wagon gained steam.

The thing is, if you look at the responses, most of the people who commented on the issue before you terminated the experiment were talking from a very general viewpoint and if anything tended to disagree with Korts. So your townie reaction prediction at least seems a bit off. Also, Sando had already commented on this before you talked about vote shifting serious, so I don't think his opinion on KvK was dictated by the will to pursue Chaos as an easy target. If he's scum, then ok, it could have been somewhat convenient but not calculated, I think. KvC, well, I also stated that I could see the case so I don't think it's an unreasonable townie opinion to have, but it is true his reaction was eager.

The Slip, on the other hand, is interesting and Kairyuu could be onto something there. Too weak to get make it L1 yet, though, and didn't have time today to more than just skim rest of the arguments on each side.

Eager to unvote...arr you serious I understand the need for jump starting the conversations but suspicion for terminating my random phase Vote and its timing this early in the day is preposterous. Are you intentionally shotgun style accusing many to later attack your accusers as OMGUS voters?

I've been reading more games here and I see now that it's common practice in this forum, so you're right, it's not suspicious, though intuitively the custom pinged me at first. Your second sentence is noted as rather jumpy. That would be ridiculous from my part.


@Kairyuu: Confirm vote: wasn't mentioned in the rules, what is it, a game mechanic or a rhetorical device for weight?

[Ojanen]

Oops. Sorry about the quote tags.

Fixed

[Ojanen]

The silent trio needs to wake up.

Requesting prod for Bekkatha

, her last post was Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:28 pm.
Josh Lyman said she was away until Tuesday morning, well it's Saturday afternoon in my time zone now so I think she should be prodded too.
Infinis posted two days ago, but I want him to butt in on stuff, come on tell us what you think of all this?

I'm gonna try to get my thoughts collected and post properly later today.

[Ojanen]

Ok.
Here come some collected thoughts of mine.

Against Sando

-The Slip

The initial explanation when Chaos first took notice of it:

Do you mean that last sentence as, you were wondering how to go along with it as town, or how to avoid getting stuck in it as scum?

I'd be seriously considering that he was using the last game as an example of how good it is for a townie to do while secretly being scum and trying it from the other side.

This just doesn't make sense to me and is the biggest point against him, despite his explanations. I read the linked original gambit. It seems to be a real leap to try and think how make it work from the scum side, I could maybe, maybe imagine something with an early day sacrifice of partner but that would be wild, unbeneficial and unnecessary. Haven't been able to get around this.

-In his Kairyuu attack, the kid-glove connection to previous IC game seems forced. Especially after Kairyuu having been criticized for the gambit last time as not good for newbie games, don't really see the problem there. Overall mentality of argument smells slightly OMGUS and sometimes streched (but tbh in my opinion Kai's attitude to it smells even more OMGUS OMGUS)

Also, a hammer, and potentially the L-1 vote,

will be seen as scummy

unless backed up by very good reasoning. Personally i think this is the biggest reason not to hammer me, as i believe both scum are voting for me already, so someone else

hammering will give them ammunition they need against another townie

.

The L-1 vote is

hugely dangerous

, and shouldn't be used to pressure. L-2 is pressure enough at this stage of the game. L-1 makes it incredibly easy for a scum to come along and hammer, claim they didn't mean to, and they lynch a townie while

giving away only a smallish tell.

L-1 means you want this person hammered.

-His quicklynch talk. Not sure what it is about this. While having good points, makes me feel slightly uneasy in its strongness/scare tactics, though I know a non-scum player really wouldn't want to be lynched either. Maybe it's the contradiction. The parts in cursive are in grave mood, the bolded part seems to contradict with the "it will be easy to make you look like scum", suddenly the hammer is only a smallish tell. Veeery minor point though.

Overall I do find the case against Sando stronger than the one against Kai at the moment. However,

What worries me

-Kai's lack of opposition to quicklynch.
Seriously, we have almost no idea about a third of the players yet. He's very confident that this doesn't matter. My first game here, I replaced as townie to evening of day two in a newbie game where the town played horrendouly atrocious and completely lost, mostly due to quicklynching. "Oops...oh well" is the road that leads to hell.
-That the exaggeration in Kai's discrediting Sando's points is bigger than Sando's exaggeration in discrediting Kai's points.
-Japles's vote on Sando, which totally

does

look like OMGUS.
-the Gambit: Kai did tie KvK and KvC together in that the other depends on the other despite Sando commenting on KvK already before setting KvC up. Kai hasn't commented on this.

I still have my RVS vote hanging, so gonna

unvote

for now. No intention of hammering yet. Looking forward to Kai's promised message.

[Ojanen]

EBWOP: That Kai's exaggeration in discrediting Sando's points is bigger than Sando's exaggeration in discrediting Kai's points. (orders word strange used I)

[Ojanen]

Busy too, no time for proper mafia pondering right now. This jumped to me from the page, though.

@Infinis: One point to address from your last post.

The probability of both ICs being scum is extremely low, approximately 2.78% actually. This is determined through simple multiplication. The first IC has a 2/9 chance, and assuming that happens, the second one has a 1/8 chance, making 2/72, or 1/36. or 2.777777778%.

However, that isn't really the issue here.

Might embarass myself here, cause I ain't any mathematician.
But isn't it so that the same probability is true for any given two players selected beforehand as separate from the others?
What I mean is, doesn't any given selected pair of players have the same probability of ending up scum as the two IC's?
Isn't what you said almost like saying "there are to players whose names start with the letter A in this game, so the probability of them both being scum is only 2,78%, therefore extremely low"? Like the fallacy of how extremely improbable our world is, looking back from now?

[Ojanen]

'Kay. I'm beginning to have a hard time figuring out Kairyuu.
I don't know if he's irritated at us naughty newbies or what.
Looking at a couple of his points in his last post here.

From KvS

You wanted a quicklynch, despite knowing that there were at least 2/3 people who had failed to respond, has your view on quicklynches changed?

Nope. Does switching my vote imply that? How so? I expect full explanations to both of these questions.

This isn't addressed to me, but because I have also noticed this I really feel like pointing out two older quotes of yours, Kai. I hope I understood right that you were saying nope to wanting quicklynches in the previous quote.

I like quicklynches

. As soon as I am confident that someone is scum I want them lynched so that I can move on to the next scum. It's the way I play, and it is reasonably effective (which, of course, you know, seeing as we lynched the scum roleblocker on page 8 and had a 24 hour D2 that ended the game in Newbie 750, which you seem to only want to cite when it serves your purposes). You can stop taking jabs at my credibility already. None of them have been valid, and I highly doubt that any will.

A quick note though. Your last two posts are complete misreps of everything I said.

Why exactly haven't you been lynched yet?

You said these before Infinis/Josh Lyman/Bekkatha had said much anything at all. You unvoted (from L-1 situation) and switched vote after Sando and I had expressed concern/suspicion over this quicklynch business, which might not be relevant but shouldn't be forgotten either.

From KvI

Hypocrite. You accused me of 'exonerating' Korts by using him in my gambit, but yet you then claim that people should trust you because you are making a scenario involving random numbers? Are you serious?

English isn't my first language so it's possible that I misunderstood Infinis, but it really looks to me like you did. Don't understand at all where he suggested that he should be trusted.

Let's assume you are scum, would you risk losing a team member in order to sail all the way to the endgame? Perhaps. Would you chose two townies to guarantee a scum favorable lynch? More likely.

No to the first, and yes to the second. However, I don't like to gambit as scum, as I have stated over and over again. It is too risky, and puts my teammates in a terrible position if it fails.

We cannot believe you though just because you say so "over and over again". Or because Korts has one game of scum-meta from you. On this I comment mostly because of the overtone.

Regarding your talk on the overdefensiveness of Infinis, can you elaborate overdefensiveness over what? And why is this more noteworthy than Japles's behaviour, which to me seems like defensiveness directly related to his own persona?

[Ojanen]

EBWOP: Also meant to include this in the quicklynch quotes in previous post.

So I'm scum based on a case which has literally zero actual valid points? Sure thing. This is OMGUS dressed up with straw men, IIoA, and attacks on my credibility instead of actual scumtells.

I am happy with my vote right where it is, and would not be adverse to lynching you right now.

[Ojanen]

Gaah. Why can I see my misunderstanding regards to quicklynching exchange so clearly now but not before posting? Thanks for your patience.
What I'd like to ask though, is that why do you like quicklynches? You now say you think Sando is more likely town than scum. So from your perspective, if you're a townie, your judgment has changed quite a lot due to some more discussion. What is the benefit to quicklynching?

Nope. I'm trying to point out bad logic and weak arguments as well as providing my own points. I'm attempting to keep myself polite. If I'm failing then please tell me, because it is not my intention to be rude.

Looking back, I think I was actually a little rude there. I do appreciate your ICing.

re: your gambiting meta: ok, thanks. I'll glance at those, though I'm still undecided on how much credit it is wise to give to meta (also this gambit really wasn't drastic like the doc one in N750).

I pointed out that his assumption did not work with the math, and he went up in arms trying to defend himself when there was no accusation of scumminess in my math bit.

I read his post again carefully and generally the part I where I didn't follow you was about defending

himself

. He did say that his previous argument had been misrepresented. Other than that it was math and pointing at what he thought were flaws in your gambit.

[Ojanen]

At this point I'll vote for the person that has bugged me most constantly as suspicious. I've been waiting for him to come and answer the questions that were raised about his vote on Sando but my patience is wearing out. He seemingly put Sando to L-1 for obscure self-defense reasons. His posts haven't had much substance at all, and often he has mostly responded to stuff related to him, not so much giving opinions on anything else going on in the game. Also, based on Kairyuu's timings of bringing his cases to the table, I wouldn't find the scumteam Kairyuu/Japles unlikely.

vote Japles

My initial reaction is that Sando and Kai are not in some kind of gambit. As for any other conclusions, the waters are muddy and the fence is quite a good seat to try and sort things out from.

Do you mean by this that your conclusion is that they're not scum together? (That is a rather mild and, looking at everything, seemingly obvious result.)

Kairyuu, what gave you a pretty decent read of Korts is his first posts?
What is wrong with trying on and describing the subjective math perspective - "if he is town then how much sense do these actions and assumptions make?" I'd think that's a standard tool of thought to evaluate if someone's behaviour is consistent.

[Ojanen]

Also, based on Kairyuu's timings of bringing his cases to the table, I wouldn't find the scumteam Kairyuu/Japles unlikely.

Elaborate please.

You asked for it, so here comes elaboration of timing and drawing suspicion to other directions.

Japles gets in trouble beginning from his first post. In second page he has already three people questioning him (Chaos, Sando, myself), perhaps most prominently Sando. He gets his second vote post 27. You shift your suspicion to Chaos serious post 28 (later you explain this as the part of the gambit).
Japles gets another FoS, posts 41 and 46 are attacking him.
Post 52 is your reveal gambit - attack Sando post. It is also not unreasonable to say that the gambit was terminated earlyish, players' inputs were missing, not much had developed out of the Chaos case etc. At the end of that post you put Japles on top of your "likely townie" list. I raised an eyebrow to that at the time but then thought it was a byproduct of you being convinced of Sando's guiltiness.
Japles gets mostly forgotten after that, the drama is about Sando and Kai, some Chaos suspicions, passing mentionings of Japles suspicions from Sando.
Enter Japles. Very scummy post (82). FoSses Sando for illogical reason related to Sando suspecting him.
Next post (83), Kairyuu visits the scene, ignores Japles' stuff that looks to me now a hundred times odder than Sando's and says to Sando:

-twitch-

Ya know, I like long post as much as the next guy, but this is rather excessive. I'll respond later tonight or tomorrow, depending on if/when I can get my homework done.

A quick note though. Your last two posts are complete misreps of everything I said. Why exactly haven't you been lynched yet?

Post 85, Japles votes Sando to L-1 with a rubbish reason.
Gets questioned and attacked for it and that is the main issue for a while. I say I won't hammer in that situation yet, Kairyuu unvotes.
Kairyuu comes back post 102. Withdraws suspicion of Sando, attacks/votes lurkers.
Attacks Infinis. Japles is getting buried again. Kairyuu is questioned about opinion on Japles by me and Sando.

His answers:

Japles gave a reason, but the reason was crap. I think he is suspicious, but not enough to warrant my vote or attention right now.

Japles isn't interesting to me right now. He is scummy, yes, but not as much so as Infinis, so I am focusing on the scummier target. It's just the way I do things.

So yes, I'd say the way you've been doing stuff is pretty convenient for Japles, Kai. You could say it's almost too convenient, but then on the other hand one of the statements you've made quite strongly of your own meta while defending the gambit is that you like to keep the scumgroup intact as long as reasonably possible in a game.

So does that mean that you'd like to lynch Japles, and then me tomorrow if he flips scum? I think he'll flip scum, but I'm a bit wary of the Kairyuu lynch for tomorrow. I really don't think he's scum.

All in all, I’ve changed my mind from Kai/Chaos to Kai/Japles, and the more I look at it, the more I think Japles is scum, and Kai just refusing to get drawn into a comment on Japles seems really dodgy as well. I’m open to comments on either at the moment, Ojanen certainly seems to be set of Japles more than Kai, that’s ok with me, although I would like to hear more from other people.

I actually deliberated voting Kai, too.
I'm open to comments too, but I certainly want content from Japles before even considering of changing my vote.

Btw, seems it's not the standard preference, but I really don't mind the wall-of-text posts. Actually I've kind of liked them in this game. They feel like good sturdy steaks.

[Ojanen]

Thanks guys, maybe I'm learning too.

Kai's tone seems quite mild, but if Japles is scum and it's all a coincidence then I must say it's a hell of a coincidence.

Sando, yeah, you're absolutely right about the direction of the Japles/Kai link, and Japles is scummier than Kai as a standalone. I'm happy with my vote.

Sounds about right. I'll just have to convince you to help me lynch Infinis then, now won't I?

Only way I can see not having to argue with you is if we get lucky and Infinis is a scum roleblocker, because then if we have the right setup I can submit to the lynch in full confidence of a town win.

I saw the game breaking plan in the 750, but I don't understand this.
Did you mean to write Japles instead of Infinis to the second paragraph?

[Ojanen]

No prod needed, I'm here and I'm gonna read and ponder this thing now.
The site was down the whole day for me yesterday! Couldn't get in. Strange that none of you others seem to have had that problem.

[Ojanen]

Dammit, what's up with the forum? I had another handful of hours of "site not found".

So scum killed Chaos40.
That is indeed rather unexpected. After seeing the result of the lynch I too did think that the most obvious choices would be Sando or me.
My reaction was milder than jaw-dropping gasp though, and this is not valid in my opinion:

For what it's worth I can't readily imagine Kai killing off a player he himself called likely town while others didn't particularly have the same read on Chaos.

I'd guess Korts hadn't quite caught up here.

to Sando
This is literally the only valid point in your entire case. There is nothing I can do to argue against this point, and I think that, without mitigating factors, it is easily enough on its own to condemn me. However, I think those mitigating factors are present in my play,

and in the NK choice (as Korts mentioned)

, so I think there are other people scummier than me.

At least for me Chaos looked decidedly townish too after Japles' flip. He was the third to put for his vote on Japles on the bandwagon leading to the lynch, but more telling I find his earlier interactions with Japles when he on several occasions took the iniative to thrust solid suspicions on Chaos to the spotlight.
But it's true he was not the most obvious choice, and Sando has mentions factors that could be somewhat mitigating.

The fact that Chaos suspected Sando does not come even close to making me turn my head towards Sando. If Sando is scum, the bussing tactics of the scumteam would have been utterly crazy. Japles put Sando on L-1 (accompagnied with seriously scummy comments) and Sando was one of the originators of the Japles lynch bandwagon + was throwing limelight to Japles' suspicious behaviour all along the Day 1.

At the moment I still find the link between Japles and Kairyuu (described post 140) to be a major thing and more solid "mitigating factors" would be needed before I would swallow it as a coincidence. But I'll take a look at the other people, especially Infinis, and comb through the presented cases tomorrow (it's 3 AM and I'm not at my sharpest hour).

@ICs
Is it unethical to try to outguess the mod? I wanna check, but we do play to win after all? I have thoughts about the Josh Lyman inactivity situation.

[Ojanen]

Things regards to Josh/prodding, don't know if these observations mean anything:

Prods of missing players will be issued upon request or after 4 days of no activity. A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.

My four inactive days last week, not counting the break during the night, would have been Monday, Tuesday, Saturday and Sunday.
However Josh Lyman already had five days of silence before me. Now VRK told us the we would be prodded at the same time this Monday.
So either the night doesn't reset the counting of days to prod, or different rules apply to me and JL.
So Josh was prodded around 10 days ago and picked it up?
But then the new prod this Monday woud have been his third one, cause he was already prodded earlier, look at post 102 by VRK. And I see no immediate replacement search yet.

Anyway, apart from just taking Kai's word that he saw Josh, it must be true that he responded to at least one prod of the latter prods and didn't write anything in the thread.


@Infinis

You're really, really not making sense with your NK speculation.

I see it was Sando's turn to beat me to the post while I was digging JL dates so I'm erasing the repetitive part from here, but those questions of his are something I'm very interested in seeing answered, too.

[Ojanen]

As I said NKing Kai would cast strong suspicion on you, Sando. Confirming anyone as town this early is ludicrous. Saying that no one would think you would NK Kai is perfect WIFOM defense. As in the argument both you and Kai are making, there is no way Sando as scum would NK Kai, since it would be too suspicious. Let me try and make an example we can all enjoy.

This makes very little sense. Why are you really looking at me if Kai dies? He’d already said pre-lynch that he thought I was townie, and the scum lynch is what is being used to say I’m town. You don’t accuse someone of being scum in that circumstance purely because he has no reason to do it. Nobody had a pressing need to kill Kai, nobody.

Yes. If you're not deliberately twisting history, Infinis, you need to reread once more. Kai had very clearly dropped his suspicions of Sando by the end of day 1 and was actually complimenting Sando of his posting and points.
If you actually look at what happened, the person who Kai was most vocally suspecting was yourself, Infinis. He said he had several suspects, but his vote and pressure was on Infinis until he hammered and I think this part of post 144 proves to whom Kai was looking to be a threat:

I'm doing this because outside of the link to Japles, I'm no longer all that sure on Kai. Considering this, if Japles turns town, which i doubt, but if he does, I at least will think much more townie of Kai. If he turns Scum, then I'm going to have to be really convinced not to lynch Kai. But either way, we learn something.
If we were to lynch Kai, and he turned scum, then we've linked him to Japles and can lynch Japles. But if Kai turns town, then we haven't learned anything about the scum.
I think what I'm basically blabbering about is what I think Korts said earlier, links tend to go 1 way. I think the link ties Kai to Japles, not the other way round.

Sounds about right. I'll just have to convince you to help me lynch Infinis then, now won't I?

Only way I can see not having to argue with you is if we get lucky and Japles is a scum roleblocker, because then if we have the right setup I can submit to the lynch in full confidence of a town win.

(Kai's self-explained typo corrected, he originally miswrote Infinis to the Japles part too.)

It was extremely unlikely that Kai was gonna get NKd.
If Kai isn't scum, he was going to be a major mislynch prospect.
The person who would have mostly liked him not to be around was probably Infinis, but even then it would have been a strange choice because he would have thrown spotlight on himself and killed a suspicion-magnet.

For argument's sake, if we eliminate, as scum possiblities, you, me, Sando , and Ojanen, we have left: Josh, Korts and millar

Kai and Sando say Josh I would say millar. Ojanen what say you?

From those three others, I'd guess millar. I suspect Kai and Infinis substantially more atm but it's not like we can really have a read on him from the amount he has posted.
It's extremely irritating that regards to getting anything, almost the only thing we can look at is the difference of his activity level to previous games and speculation about meta. He's been around and has caught up but totally ignores requests to post what he's thinking. On the upside, he put Japles to L-1 (bussing isn't totally unlikely in that situation but I do give some townie points from the vote). On the downside the way he put Japles on L-1 with no comment whatsoever is definitely not good.
But I've understood he generally plays unconventionally. I guess I should go and take a look at some of his other games.

Josh, hell I don't know. I guess he wasn't prodded around 10 days a ago as I thought in my last post. Zero content, slightly ambiguous inactivity situation. Grrr.

Korts has been behind most of the game. He joined the Sando-wagon pretty easily.
I'm kinda tempted to speculate that if he would be scum, then as an IC he would have caught up a bit better and not semi-abandoned his scumpartner. That's wildly untrustworthy speculation though. And he didn't vote for Japles. When he does speak, it's mostly substance, though sometimes he raises suspicions about things I find far-fetched. For example he commented that Sando's "don't read this if I turn out scum" -marks in one post were slightly suspicious. Looking at the context of those marks, people were grumbling about wall-of-posting at the time. To me it's hard to interpret that as anything else than someone who was on L-1 and cared about the game so wanted to make his point but not feeling welcome to do it.

I didnt vote Japles because this is a newbie game and the case was weak against him. I thought newb play. It seemed that you, Sando, were using him as an escape from Kai's gambit/trap.

Looking at posts 82+85, seriously you don't see them as all that scummy? Japles is complimenting the flawed gambit, no content comments, eating the cake and having it too by ominously implying that Chaos and Korts voted too quick but siding with them in the suspicion, FOSsing Sando just cause Sando had earlier stated he suspects Japles too, and finally putting Sando to L-1 because Sando stated all the previous made Sando's suspision grow and afterwards never coming back to attention to answer any questions raised, and whole day generally never doing anything except when pressed or attacked.
I'm going back to that cause I'm actually curious, you think those are weak and minor ways to tell someone is scum?

Anyway, setting aside this "for argument's sake" thing my eyes are definitely mainly on Kai and you at the moment.

Even when he makes mistakes like with the gambit, there is a keenness in Kai's observations and posting that I don't easily associate with scum. However this is contrasted on such a stark way to the ignoring/refusing to pursue Japles until end of day 1 and drawing attention to all other details that it just continually jumps to me as a contradiction.

Infinis recently isn't making sense. Still need to properly comb posts to possibly perceive truly scummy motivations behind the things I find to be false statements. Originally I saw Kai vs. Infinis more as a distraction Kai might be painting, I guess I should do a neutral reevaluation from scratch.
I was supposed to do this days ago, hope I finally have time today/tomorrow.

[Ojanen]

Welcome to the game semioldguy!

@Infinis

Now first I'll just take this from your second last post:

Kai, Chaos, and japles.
But enough already, you were at L-1 and turned it around to a Japles (scum) lynch! I could have hammered you right there if I was scum and saved my scum buddy. I didn't because I thought you were town then and town now.
Damn, I missed this completely the first couple of reads, were you really at L-1 by this post? Telling that you were not hammered. I'll respond to the rest of your post after I investigate.

Whaaat?!
1. First paragraph you create an alibi by saying you're not scum cause you didn't hammer
2. Second paragraph you say you didn't ever realise Sando was L-1? How's that for a contradiction?
3. I checked and you never posted to the thread in the timeframe you could have actually hammered, Kai unvoted before your next message, only people talking between Japles putting to L-1 and Kai unvoting back to L-2 were Sando, Japles and me.

?!?

[Ojanen]

More to Infinis,

Where did that vote on millar13 come from?
You spend the whole posts mentioning nothing of him (or Bekkatha, whom he replaced) except that the playerslot didn't hammer? And then you base your vote on the Sando-wagon of which he was no part of with no other explanation?

[Ojanen]

Semioldguy: thanks for catching up quickly!

@Kai

Sando: The case I built on Sando was rather large, and the points were totally valid.

So I see the gambit is suddenly "totally valid" again.

Oooooh. Woooow. You actually know how to read. How brilliant.

You attack semioldguy and imply he's stupid because he's restating shortly the thing that is damn scummy in your behaviour? That is poor form, and the belittling of the point looks baaaad. I

seriously

feel like voting you right now, but I want Korts in the game before lynching anyone and there are still some questions to be asked.

@Infinis

1. I was reading the thread. If was scum, I would be waiting for the L-1 to hammer.
2. Yes a contradiction. But I will reiterate if I was scum I'd be watching closely for the hammer, I was reading didn't notice he was L-1. I still believe me not hammering is a protown tell. Just like I think the quick vote by millar w/o justification was scummy enough for my vote.

The end explains your millar vote by saying that you meant the Japles wagon and not Sando wagon as you wrote before?

You said regards to the hammering: "I didn't because I thought you were town then and town now." As far as I understand, that's clearly saying that you knew you could hammer, that's why I jumped at your contradiction. And the timeframe for possible hammering was 22 hours, you hadn't written in the thread in 4 days, and scum doesn't always monitor the thread closely, Japles seemingly didn't, so I'm not clearing you because of that.

[Ojanen]

@Kai

You were actually replying to me when you thought you were replying to Sando in your last post, so this is addressed in the wrong persona.

Sando: The case I built on Sando was rather large, and the points were totally valid.

So I see the gambit is suddenly "totally valid" again.

Nope. Never said that. Gambit was crap. Case was not. I stand by the points I made against you as I backed off. They were a perfectly valid reason for me to keep my vote on.

Because you said the points were totally valid, and because the case included quite prominently the gambit, I interpreted the gambit as a point in your case. I think my interpretation was a natural one, and your line comes across to me as you wanting to brush away the memory of the gambit. Hence my comment.
I checked your "backing off" post (103) and it seems to be centered on Sando's reaction to yout attack. For what it's worth, I still stand by on what I said at the height of the Sando wagon (post 92) - at the time some of Sando's arguments against you did look streched to me so I could understand the vote, but I always thought your exaggeration in discrediting Sando's points was bigger than Sando's exaggeration in discrediting your points.

@Infinis (and Korts, if you're using Infinis' last post as a summary of what's happened)

How can someone who expresses to have read the thread more than once repeatedly misrep so bluntly what has happened?
Many points from your last post are somehow skewed and the timeline is skipping stuff.

1. Kai's gambit was garbage but Sando's slip was first pointed out by Chaos and was never responded to.

Sando's slip was actually extensively responded to. However, we now know Japles was scum. Sando was throwing suspicion to Japles from beginning of day 1, Japles put Sando to L-1 and Sando played a prominent (and early, 2nd voter) part in the Japles wagon that got him lynched. I think it's pretty clear by now the slip very, very, vrey probably wasn't a scumslip.

2. There are huge posts of back and forth after that. Of note is that Kai exonerates Oja and Japles in his big reveal post

It is of note that he exonerates Japles, but if you mention me too, why are you leaving out that Kai also exonerates Chaos40 and Korts in the same sentence?

4. Sando tried to scare off hammer vote

More accurate would be that Sando very forcefully stated that he's L-2, went over the significance of providing good reasoning with potential next votes and stated that quick lynches are generally considered bad for the town (we were on page 3).

5. Kai says he was wrong about Sando and turns towards me

Between 4 and 5 Japles makes the scummy appearance that later got him lynched, and Kai turns to lurkers and then to you.

Between 7 and 8 the Japles wagon is started.

Either Kai or Sando is Scum, if it's anyone else they lurked too hard to get any kind of read. Old guy is making some valid points to get townie points.

To be honest, I think it's strange you suspect Sando to be an extreme busser and Japles to be eager to try and quicklynch his scumbuddy.

I'll get working on another post for Korts and Kai's newest.

[Ojanen]

It's interesting to see the different game summaries.

5. I decide I was wrong and back off of Japles.

I think that should say Sando.

6. Infinis proves that he is scum.

I know Korts wanted concise and you have two other points mentioning Infinis' fluctuation of opinion on you, but ummmm. How well explained and referenced.
Kai actually dropped his case on Infinis on beginning of day 2 for a reason I found to be thin in regards to how Day 1 played out, namely the assumption that anyone new to the site would most likely kill an IC (Korts, even though he wasn't really in the game) if they didn't kill Sando or me. He has made a new attack on Infinis since then but the buiding of the case has been more aggression and less analyse than I expected.

Sando commented on the emotion - I've noticed it too. The slightly overdramatic and exasperated thing coming from Kai's likely lynch associates better to coming from scum giving up rather than a townie who says he's certain who the last scum is and wants to communicate a case forward.

Okay.
I'll get to it.
This is the L-1 vote. Anyone voting Kai after this need to be fully conscious that they're hammering him unless some further unvotes happen.

vote: Kairyuu

I outlined the link between Japles and Kai already long ago, the message has been referenced several times lately but here's the link again.

I find it a lot more likely that Kai's link to Japles is due to Kai being scum than Kai having really bad luck with several instanses of timing coupled to oversight. I entered day 2 with this in my mind, I've tried to be open to other possibilities and pursue them. Infinis certainly has scummy traits. In the end I don't think it will change that I still find Kai to be the scummiest player alive. This link isn't something that can or will change and it should be inspected.

[Ojanen]

Hi Starbuck! I'm in Europe too.
I would say welcome if your presence didn't make me fear for bad news.
We've got 1 remaining scum and got a replacement in

after

the hammer?

[Ojanen]

No counterclaim from here.
Korts is clear in every scenario.
And based on the timing of the cop claim, I think Infinis would be rather senseless if he would be lying right now (huge risk with not enough pressure on him yet to potentially throw everything away easily) so I think he's probably the real thing.
Infinis voted Korts on day 1 and I just reread Infinis' day 2, and the tacit assumption of Korts not being scum seems to be there.
Can you still explain the thought process of choosing your night 2 investigation between Sando and me? You stated several times on day two that we were the two people you found most likely to be townies.

[Ojanen]

Hmm. Helpful insight from Korts.

I mentioned in my previous post that I had reread Infinis' day 2 . It was consistent with his claim regarding a Korts investigation. End of day 1 Infinis votes Korts. On day 2 basically he rarely mentions Korts, and when he does it's positive. With other people he was a little all over the place with his suspicions on day 2. (Of course this could be some kind of an overarching plan, buddying up to the IC that isn't so hostile etc., but still, thought that the change of opinion does support the claim.)

The short amount of Korts in Infinis' posts day 2:
Beginning of day(ISO 8): The first thing he does is taking Korts' side on the old random number debate (that could of course be also just because Kai was a mislynch prospect)
ISO 14 - Gives opinions on people. Writes more about others (I'm the only exception by being left out of assessments), only thing mentioned about Korts beside quote from him is:

korts was mia, I thought he was lurking intentionally so I voted him. But this Day Two post is very well argued.

ISO 23 - I just noted the tone of this regarding Korts.

Alright since it's from you korts, I'll go back once again and link in the posts of interest. Since I think Kai is scum but he said he'd be away and that's bad form even if he is scum to lynch him while's he's at prom. But only because you asked korts. I think I've made my case already and recently. Unvote

Normally I would also wonder why the cop didn't investigate Kai after the Japles scum flip, but it is consistent to the confused situation assessment about likely night kills from Infinis' posts from early day 2.

In any case at least today an Infinis lynch isn't the way to go so the old lurker playerslots are the ones I'll start digging.

And Starbuck, I'm sorry but you've replaced to a playerslot that had millar displaying some scummy behaviour and lurking and Bekkatha displaying lurking. A more detailed take on things from you would be very much appreciated.

[Ojanen]

Yeah, lynching Infinis today is definitely not the right way, and in the current circumstances the claim has me convinced.
(Semioldguy's statement that we have an absolute guarantee of having a confirmed townie tomorrow though works only if you count Infinis as confirmed, and is thus a incompatible as a reply to Starbuck whose position is that Infinis is suspicious.)

Well anyway.
Starbuck is definively acting scummier than semioldguy.
The scum needs two mislynches to win and her going after Infinis at this point makes a more sense from a scum's perspective than a townie's. Also the cop contradiction she pointed out wasn't one.
Semioldguy isn't setting up a second lynch but simply saying it must be Starbuck.
Starbuck replaced millar the active lurker non content poster no explanation voter.
Semioldguy replaced JL, from whom we got next to nothing.

Infinis, any thoughts?
I'd vote Starbuck but she's already at L-1.
We should end up catching the scum whether it's Starbuck or semi anyway though, so I'm not sure how much added benefit long pondering today would give.

[Ojanen]

Woo!
You're right semioldguy, I hadn't thought that through.

[Ojanen]

Well.
I thought about this situation and Infinis' claim one more time.
It just must come down to Starbuck and semioldguy. I can't see a good reason to drag the game at this point, this should be a forced town-win. Starbuck's reaction to the situation today was clearly more scummy than semioldguy's reaction.
This is the hammer.

vote Starbuck

[Ojanen]

The fact that Korts is a cop-confirmed townie makes semioldguy confirmed scum from my perspective, so there's no chance in hell I would vote for anyone else today.
Semioldguy will probably say the same about me.
I don't have any particular reason to vote immediately. But also I don't see how any conversation would change the fact that I and semi will end up voting for each other and Korts will be the one who calls the game.

[Ojanen]

vote semioldguy

I'll first post some observations. I wish there was some material to go on in relation to Japles, but semioldguy's precedent Josh Lyman was a hardcore lurker with a few fluff posts so any in-thread interactions are obviously just not there.
JL didn't abandon the game, though, Kai saw him browsing the forum and voted him for active lurking on day 2 with Sando adding pressure.
Replacing out seems to have been a conscious desicion, because VRK said he was gonna prod on Monday, Josh was seen browsing the forum on Tuesday and VRK announced that Josh would be replaced out on Wednesday. And there was what seems to be a missing prod at one point which I wondered about here.
Also, VRK told us that if someone pleaded V/LA or was in the process of being replaced, the nightkill would be randomized.

Connecting these dots, the odd killing of Chaos40 on night 1 would finally make sense if it was in fact was a randomized choice. JL had not flaked but had sent a V/LA notice to VRK. He also said in the thread on 7th: "My RL has taken a bizarre turn. Be here soon, promise." which is an unformal V/LA declaration.
Of course we know absolutely nothing about JL's style of thinking and Chaos did look quite townish after the Japles lynch, but it never made that much sense to leave alive both Sando and me who had a much stronger initiative on the Japles lynch (to the point of being regarded almost confirmed townies by some players afterwards). Especially Sando's death would have put a strong spotlight to Kai anyway, there would have been no real reason to leave us both around had the motive been just to mislynch Kai.

Then there's the Sando kill on night 2.
Sando seems to have been chosen, in addition to the fact he was generally considered extremely unlikely scum due to day 1, also because he was a nice framejob for an Infinis lynch.

semioldguy's opinion change overnight on Infinis:
during day 2:

Infinis: I don't get a strong town or scum vibe from him. He could be either. However, what I do like is that he has been looking back extensively at Day One in his scum hunting attempts and bringing it into current discussion, something that I think many more people should do more often. Previous days always merit more analysis as the game progresses. His scum hunting attempts are mostly believable to me.

He got a little flak about this appreciating comment from Sando because Infinis was actually describing day 1 often inaccurately, which lead to iffy conclusions/interpretations and unlikely suspicions.
His reply:

I find the motives to be more believable than the arguments themselves. His [Infinis'] trying seems genuine to me.

No mention anymore, but there is a clear contrast to his first post on day 3:

I didn't like infinis' hopping on and off with his vote of Kairyuu yesterday and he is one of the top suspects at the moment in my opinion.

I'd like to hear a few things from Starbuck about the game so far. Hopefully she's had time to catch up.

And in second post:

I was referring to the fact that at the beginning of the day you [Infinis] went on and off him, and then onto him again when there was more support for it. It wasn't just about your last withdrawn vote.

Note that the hopping on and off happened already before semi made his first statements about Infinis on day 2.

Overall it's a little frustrating to build the case because practically semi's playerslot and Japles almost didn't even exist at the same time and semi has handled the lonely scum role quite well.
I'll correct some misrepresenting of me he made on his previous posts next.

[Ojanen]

Infinis, any thoughts?
I'd vote Starbuck but she's already at L-1.
We should end up catching the scum whether it's Starbuck or semi anyway though, so I'm not sure how much added benefit long pondering today would give.

Why the hesitation here? In fact there was more wishy-washiness and hesitation from your votes on days two and three than there was on the first day. The first day you really didn't leave much self doubt about your vote on Japles because you knew he would flip scum. The next two days you knew that townies were going to be flipping and you set yourself up to wiggle out of having targeted them if the blame came around to you.

At this point day 3 had been going on for 3 real days.
I hammered 1 day later, after giving Infinis a chance to speak, he hadn't posted since his cop reveal. That's some mighty hesitation. Your comparison took in isolation two vote posts and then this snippet.
For the record, because I thought this was misrepresenting, here is my actual vote post.

Well.
I thought about this situation and Infinis' claim one more time.
It just must come down to Starbuck and semioldguy. I can't see a good reason to drag the game at this point, this should be a forced town-win. Starbuck's reaction to the situation today was clearly more scummy than semioldguy's reaction.
This is the hammer.

vote Starbuck

By choosing different snippets you could have also have presented hesitating towards Japles and sternness towards Kai from me. This argument was purely selective quoting.

Japles was bussed. You helped in leading the charge against Japles Day One. The first vote on him was from you. But on the two townie lynches you waited until there was enough support from other players. Against Kairyuu you waited until two other votes were on him, putting him at L-1 when you finally came around to placing your vote. And when it came to Starbuck on the third day, you waited until you could hammer. The only vote you've placed with confidence has been your vote against Japles, the one you knew would turn up as scum.

As I quite pointedly expressed on day 1 in regards to the Sando wagon, I have strong dislike on quicklynching.
Also, as my memory of how things happened is completely different to your narrated version here, I just went and checked the actual times it took me each time to feel comfortable towards placing my vote other than the random one. Day 1: one day short of 2 weeks (and I could have easily hammered Sando after 1 week), day 2: 6 days, day 3: 4 days.
Also, it's completely manipulative to say I waited around until I could be the one to hammer Starbuck. You and Korts voted for her very, very soon after I had posted analysis of Infinis' day 2+cop claim. I came back next day to find her at L-1.
What remains of your argument is that I placed the first vote to Japles but placed only the fourth vote to Kai. Firstly: timewise this is consistent with my overall behaviour, secondly: my case that turned the tide on him was referred to and linked to enough times that I'm quite sure you're oversimplifying the construction of a wagon and making me look passive where I actually was actively pursuing.

[Ojanen]

@ Ojanen
You bring up my opinion on Infinis as changing overnight. Are you saying that is a point against me? Are you saying that your opinions don't change overnight? Based on the lynch reveals and night killings I think town players generally have some shifting opinions as we all have new information, scum doesn't really have new information from these killings.

You've also misrepresented me splendidly, but I have another class to go to right now and I'll be back tonight.

No, opinions do change.
I was bringing up that the reason you stated behind the opinion changing was something that had already happened before and during you stated your original opinion, not the reveals. I was also bringing up again Sando's point that you originally gave credit to Infinis for speculation that contained a lot of false statements. And yes, I do know you then said this was because you the the trying seemed genuine.

[Ojanen]

EBWOP: last words are supposed to be "because for you the trying seemed genuine".

[Ojanen]

Re: Infinis
Ok, let's clear this up, I dug up the exact sequence to this.
Infinis had voted once and backed off when he didn't get voting support yet before your original statements, and went back after your appreciating posts. I see that your statement in day 3 is not necessarily conflicting because of second part, my interpretation was that Infinis was withdrawing due to lack of already before your appreciation, here are the facts.

Infinis votes Kai 183
unvotes 221
semioldguy defends Infinis 230+241
Infinis votes Kai 255
unvotes Kai 258 for Korts

---

My point for Days 2 and 3 were that you waited for other people to vote on the eventual lynched suspect before you voted. One the first day you did not wait for others to vote Japles before you voted for him.

Just wow, I absolutely cannot believe you're still trying to use day 3 as part of your argument. I was here once per day. Thursday, I made my case supporting Infinis, no one had voted and Starbuck had posted exactly one two line game relevant post. 24 hours later I come back, Starbuck has posted a few more posts and is on L-1. No manipulative representation from your part, no sir.
Regards to day 1 vs. day 2 I already answered a few posts back in a relevant way to the perspective you're building, you deafly repeating your argument doesn't strengthen it.
The argument seems to be an attempt to somehow, anyhow make something out of the fact that if I was scum I would have apparently bussed Japles out of clear blue sky on Day 1.

You also said that you were the fourth vote on Kairyuu day two, that's wrong. Your vote put him at L-1, making it the third vote on him as it was 4 to lynch.

Right, my memory served me wrong there.

Why didn't you vote for me on your first post of the day? Especially since that post included your opinion that there was no chance in hell you would vote for anyone else today. Why didn't you think you had a reason to vote immediately?

You're really, really reaching for straws here.
I said I had no particular reason to vote immediately. The IC specifically requested not voting yet, so that would have been why I had a slight preference for not voting immediately over voting immediately. I posted my viewpoint and checked to be sure that Korts had missed something and not I.

[Ojanen]

I just don't know why you would say that someone is confirmed scum to you and then in the very same post you say you don't have any particular reason to vote for that person immediately. You had to wait for Korts' approval to vote for someone that you say is a confirmed scum to you. Really?

There was going to be absolutely no difference, no relevance to the conclusion of the lynch in whether I voted for you in my first, second or eighth post today.
That is perfectly consistent with me saying that "I have no particular reason to vote him right away but..." in my first post when the townie IC had just made a point of requesting so. Hearing from him just to make sure I hadn't missed anything was natural when there was nothing to be lost or gained.

[Ojanen]

It will be up to Korts to decide whether your point was good and whether I exaggerated.
I thought it was bad, I don't feel like I really exaggerated so there's no answer to that.

[Ojanen]

Well chosen!
I was just painfully composing an answer to semioldguy.
The core point was that I didn't mean to say that he had implied "out of clear blue sky".
In that case I wouldn't have written "fact" in the middle there.

Good game!

[Ojanen]

And by the way.
You lost.

[Ojanen]

I have never before found "gut" to be such a beautiful word.

[Ojanen]

I don't think any of your arguments on day three held much water Ojanen. And your refusal to continue corresponding looks really bad.

You mean day 4? You made me sweat properly, it's pretty scary when someone who is competent and aggressive knows you're scum and has all the material in the world in their hands.
Yeah I know, that's why the silence in the end wasn't actually intentional. RL got me in the last days and when I finally was here on Saturday I just had time to catch up in my other game too close to deadline. It's true that I was in the middle of composing a reply to you when I saw Korts had hammered. Good thing too, cause I would have had to admit I exaggerated my description of the bussing.

By the way... if I were scum I would have definitely killed Korts instead of Infinis.

I know, I thought about this. Before night 3 I was slightly toying with the idea of killing Korts and trying to convince you of Infinis being scum. But I don't think that would have worked for my favour for several reasons (for example it would have been easier for scum-Infinis to claim innocent on me than you).

Kai, thanks! Looking forward to hearing how to improve from being so obvious.

Infinis, you scared me. I kind of hoped there was no cop when no one hinted of being on Kai's side on day 2.

Japles, if you're still here, sorry for the lynch.
I don't enjoy bussing. Looking at the situation truthfully, I just couldn't see a way of not looking scummy at that point without voting for you.
Your case was by far the strongest, I felt the tide was about to turn anyway and I had been thus far the scummy harmless third suspector of yours (fos instead of vote, hide argument against you in the middle of other text, question Kai about you but not you about you etc.). So I took drastic measures.

[Ojanen]

Thanks for the game! It was fun to play and I thought that other than the lurkers, the town pretty much rocked.
I've got to say that the post from Korts VRK quoted was the biggest yes! moment for me in the whole game (although I didn't dare to discount the possibility it was some mind game).
My biggest struggle with the game was that as scum I seemed to have a much more closed mind than I had in my previous game as town. It was challenging to perceive and point out patterns of suspicious behaviour in townies, and it felt almost impossible for me to make convincing cases in the two instances it would have benefitted the scumteam the most, namely against Sando day 1 and semi day 4. I mean, I thought both played great, but other townies were still able to see points to attack in their play.
With Sando I agonized over his posts when Japles had put him to L-1 on day 1. I was actually secretly always rather "on his side" of the arguments. He wasn't going to go down easily. He gave the dramatic quicklynch talk. Japles had just voted him for non-existent reasons. I tried to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get something good enough to be able to ignore Japles and hammer but I just couldn't see anything convincing enough for the life of me. The summary post of mine at the hammering timeframe had all I could find in it. You putting up that fight really helped the town imo.
With semioldguy in the end, well. I had to force myself to make a case where I couldn't see one, I thought semi had acted very townish on day 3. Luckily it was not bad enough to make Korts change his mind.

Starbuck, I felt bad for having to quickhammer you just after you had replaced and caught up and I wished I could have said sorry at the time! Semi used the "hesitation" as an argument afterwards though, so it seems feeling sorry was a newbie weakness on my part.

I'd like to know though Ojanen, why was I the kill N1?

You and Sando were spot on about Japles since the beginning of the game and were the two people that looked very townish after his flip besides me. The attitude towards me was a bit of a surprise on day 2, I thought I wouldn't be seen so strongly as a "confirmed townie". My pestering of Japles had always been reactive, not taking the initiative like you two, except right in the end when there was very strong evidence against him already. I thought the order of apparent towniness would have been Sando, gap, me, slight gap, you.
Also, in the 50% chance there was no cop, I was expecting to have to face problems with why I was alive late in the game. I thought that if I would have to make strange choices, it would be easier masked if they were not consecutive. By killing you before Sando, both I and Sando looked slightly iffy on day 2 instead of just me looking even iffier on day 3. For night three I was expecting to have to come up with angles on something about who wants to be with who in an endgame if a cop didn't come out. Also, Sando was a great case-generator to help my imagination-challenged scum-mind, I was hoping to milk as much suspicion material as possible for later days from day 2 from Kai and Sando.

Thank you for the observant modding, VRK! I hope your doctoral dissertation defence went well.

[Ojanen]

Kairyuu said on day 2 on one occasion that he would consider it extremely foolish to risk bussing heavily D1 in any setup and on another that one would have to be stupid to bus to a lynch on day 1.
That sort of lingered in my mind and makes me want to ask:
Did I made the wrong play and was the bussing objectively too risky in this game?
And btw Kai, I thought it was truly cool to have an IC who was so active and involved in scumhunting.
(No jibe intended to Korts, I also found him helpful as an IC but in a different way.)

[Ojanen]

Yeah, would be very nice.