Newbie 1710 - Kittens (Post-Game)

[copper223]

Nice playing with you all and let's have fun, this should be a good game!

VOTE: desmond

[copper223]

VOTE: Titus
What's voting Thor at RVS going to do for you?

[copper223]

I am interested in why you decided to use your RV on a low probability play.

There is no answer to your question because, as is your usual want, you are assigning a motive to my post which I hadn't even considered possible before reading about it.

[copper223]

Cause voting Thor is unlikely to generate a wagon (newbies don't like to vote the IC) nor is it likely going to give you a read on him. Voting a newbie will likely produce a more interesting reaction, don't you think?

[copper223]

I am leaning town on Nadhia, Charloux and Desmond, I am leaning scum on Perci, nullish on the rest.

[copper223]

How can you already be making reads on people when its 2 pages in?

Nahdia has posted twice what I was debating writing which indicates we are coming from the same place, Desmond's claim about not being of the chocolate variety strikes me as something very likely to come from town for multiple reasons, Charloux is the classical town newbie read of being mortally afraid of being wrong and mis-lynching players by accident (I've seen this so many times I've lost count), as for Perci I don't like the way he is buddying and looking for approval, it indicates to me he is more interested in being town read than in looking for scum.

Clearly I am not going to mortgage my house on those reads but I think there's plenty of material to start and sort this game out.

@Titus
See above for why I'm iffy on Perci.

@Thor
I wanted to see how the rest of the players reacted to RVS and what else would pop up before starting my own line of inquiry.

[copper223]

In fact:

VOTE: Perci

I really don't have a handle on how to read Titus yet.

[copper223]

Ok Perci, I disagree with the logic but this is the first post that sounds like something paranoid town would come up with.

I think Titus may have a point, the fact her reads make sense makes me lean town on her as well.

It's foolish to try and give a read on Thor at this point, furthermore I've only played with Thor_town, twice I was convinced he was town and once scum (depending on how much I agreed with his pushes), but having read some of his mafia games I don't really see much of a difference at least early on, still this seems similar to what I'm used to see from him.

For the purpose of future glory I'm going to call the scum team {Ness, Algae} with an outside chance of Thor being part of it, after all if I'm right it will look great and if I'm wrong who will remember .

VOTE: Algae

[copper223]

@Perci
Sure, a question first if you don't mind, are you used to playing with much faster days?

It's very unlikely here on MS, especially in Rome, that a RVS wagon ends up being the lynch of the day, it is therefore equally very unlikely that scum would pile onto a player attempting to get him quick lynched as that is not really going to happen.

I also happen to know that Thor's favorite RVS past-time is flash wagoning so him voting for you after Nadhia's vote (and as Titus said he is not going to self vote) is just Thor either starting to scum-hunt or conforming to his meta, in other words totally null, it would have been weird if he hadn't voted for you.

[copper223]

Other than past experience

on other sites

, no.

Basically this is currently an epicmafia tell, correct?

[copper223]

I find those reads pretty shallow Charl., when did you decide Thor is likely town for being aggressive?

[copper223]

@Algae
You mean you would like to no lynch today?

[copper223]

@Charl.
Certainly the data available is scarce, but you give no explanation for why town is more likely to be more aggressive or for why Thor is (coincidentally this is not a good way to read Thor and you could easily check him out as he has plenty of games onsite), nor do you explain why me voting many different players is something that makes you lean scum on me, you are basically picking objective facts from the thread and assigning arbitrarily (or without explaining your logic) alignments to those facts.

I don't know if it's inexperience but it could also be that as scum you don't need to analyze the game cause you already know our alignments and it's showing in those reads.

[copper223]

Fair enough, I'll check your other content out after work, it does come off as genuine to me.

[copper223]

I don't see it, I'll go ahead and say I'm leaning town on Thor.

Please try to keep the post count and size manageable.

[copper223]

@Thor
Titus making a derp case is not a scum tell based on what I know of her play, the only thing it says is it makes it slightly more likely you are teammates (I know absurd, but that's how she rolled in the scum game I had with her alt).

Pressure furthermore is not going to do much with her, if I become convinced that you are town and I can't get you to support my pushes on those I think are more likely to be scum, I'll reassess, but otherwise this is just going to end in a screaming match and if neither of you is scum it's likely going to lose us the game.

Work with me on the newbies first please, I think pressure there will do a lot more to solve this game.

[copper223]

I kinda doubt Titus is scum here but I don't really know her scum meta. This play just feels too forward to be d1 scum.

Not the case, aggro as either alignment.

[copper223]

I don't think it's very likely Titus is scum because she agreed with me on a bunch of town-reads so early and added one s well that seems to pan out, you really don't want to limit your options that much as scum if you don't have to.

[copper223]

@Thor
Nope, it's somewhat unusual however for her_town to change reads so why start the game by potentially boxing yourself into a smaller square or create a possible inconvenience when you might have to justify the switch down the road as scum?

[copper223]

@Copper, have you been reading my how to read Titus thread?

No, I am going to now that I know it exists though.

[copper223]

I have my moments.

[copper223]

@Mod

Spoiler: OOG

shucks now I have to can feedback number 1, post more VC's ; speedy recovery Drixx.

[copper223]

@Thor
Hard to say how big the difference is but I think she is more likely to do it as town.

Look at Algae's posts.

[copper223]

@Titus
I'll give you the scum motivation for Algae's posts (clearly they can also come from town with a different mindset but the aggregate is worth investigating).

Gonna join the vote someone train.

Translation: I am just conforming, not responsible for my voting, please move on and ignore me.
The interesting part is that he already feels the need to justify himself.

Oh,damn
I forgot for 1 day that I was playing this
I wonder who will be lynched.

Translation 1: Oh dear I have to post something, I look scummy here (less than he thinks but guilty conscience...) so I'll justify myself with an excuse.
Translation 2: Again removing responsibility from himself and showing he is not thinking of himself as part of the group that decides whom to lynch.
This is an early sign of a scum tell I'm seeing by newbies (and some not so newbie), when you start pressuring them and they chain excuses for not being able to post it's a sign they are stuck in a rut as scum and thinking of giving up cause lying doesn't come natural to them.

Also of note: did he again forget he was playing this game cause no posts since.

I wish no one gets lynched so we can learn more clues to identify who's town and who is scum.

This I've seen as both alignments, but as scum it's again a way of justifying not having any reads nor having done anything to build them while posting something that my look like something a townie would post to a newbie, it's also something scum tend to pounce on but I've not seen anyone else take note which may be indicative as well.

[copper223]

@Charl.
What a weird post, why should we sit back and take a pill, isn't the purpose of this game to try and find scum?

Do you expect it to happen without effort?

I like all of Thor's points (although I'll note that it's not only about Thor/Titus as he also cited me as well for being unable to play) minus the first which is a bit abrasive, and would like to see those answers.

[copper223]

@Thor
This is mostly OOG but:

I disagree, you can tailor your experience on the forum if you like less aggressive playlists and still have fun.

This forum is here to help introduce new players and discouraging them from the get go if you believe they don't have the right mindset to play is not the way to go, not everyone plays like us or has the same mindset all the time, if he really isn't enjoying the time spent here he will realize it soon enough without prompts, I'd like to see as many players as possible so I can improve my skills at reading players of all levels.

@Charl.
None of that makes him scum, arguably you going personal makes you guilty of the same things you are accusing him of and is a potential cover for not having to pretend to scum hunt if you rolled scum, let's stick to the fun part of mafia.

[copper223]

@Perci
If he replace out as scum like this I won't be pleased.

I'd be pretty sure this was town frustration boiling over (excessively in my opinion, Thor is blunt but Charl. showed he is immature as well) but now that you have cross defended each other a {Charl_rep, Perci} team is something to consider, still not very likely though.

[copper223]

you have a talent for making me chuckle when I read your posts Nahdia.

[copper223]

@Perci.
Fair enough, I'm waiting for the prods/replacements to kick in.

[copper223]

@Thor
I think the defensive part is coming across because you are asking a lot of questions about how players x views you or interprets one of your posts (the focus seems to be on how others view you), it's what Titus calls why me, fry me from what I gather.

For the record I don't think this tell is applicable to Thor, in my games that has often been the way he has gone about it.

[copper223]

@Cooper - Yeah, but that's part of the point. All players are 'defensive' to some degree - the point of the defensive tell is to highlight when it passes beyond town survivalism to scum survivalism. It's why I don't use the tell, and why I like to hear people justify the tell when they use it.

Agreed, but some make a big deal of it, do you know for a fact that Titus doesn't?

[copper223]

@Thor
This is the logical chain:

- Titus was the first to bring up the why me, fry me (wmfm) tell.

- You claimed Titus's push on you is so bad it can only come from scum.

- I later gave you my read for why I consider wmfm (one of the stated reasons for Titus's read) a subset of the "he is playing defensive, he must be scum" tell, why it may come across as scummy to different players including Nahdia and why I don't think it's helpful to read you.

- You then went on again to reiterate, while addressing Nahdia and asking her if she agrees, how Titus's push is so absurd it must be coming from Titus scum and why being defensive is not a valid tell in general (addressed to me).

- My follow up is about your conviction that Titus's read must be fake (I don't know why you frame it as an attack?), since many players view being defensive as scummy and as stated I consider the wmfm tell a subset thereof, it doesn't seem so crazy that Titus would scum read you for it, but it is possible you may have access to different information and that's why I asked if that's one of the reasons you think Titus must be faking it.

[copper223]

UNVOTE:
Since this is a newbie and we might get new players coming in, I'm unvoting to avoid unfortunate hammers from new players, I still think Algae is the best lynch at the moment.

[copper223]

Copper, how convinced are you in algae-scum?

For the few posts I've had to read him on he raised a lot of the flags I have about early scum tells by new players, sometimes newbies do that though.

I'd rather wait for him to post again or for the replacement to sub in before ending the day.

[copper223]

@Root
Hmm, interesting that you didn't even give me the chance to reply before writing your counter-attack, if Algae is scum this makes you a likely partner having to decide whether a buss was the only way further or if you could try and hard defend.

How do you know I "suddenly" had a read on Algae? Why do you think I have to vote someone to get reactions as opposed to because I think he is the most likely scum? How does me unvoting fit with your scumread?

It's more likely that set of posts comes from a scum mindset, that's what I wanted to illustrate and why I voted for Algae.

[copper223]

And given that everybody who was on the algae wagon continued to want to lynch algae, I decided that the latter was the better decision?

Given I was prepared to unvote, the likelyhood of a replacement coming in and changing the situation increased substantially.

Fair enough, it's also possible that you got a scum read on algae but decided it wasn't worth explaining to anyone else until prompted.

This is also not what happened.

I started the game with the RVS vote on Desmond to see what Thor would do if I helped provide him with his favorite flash wagon start.

After the desmond wagon stopped making sense I thought Titus "playing it safe" by RVS'ing on the IC was something worth investigating, her agreeing with me on my early town reads and providing another, I found potentially town indicative for the reasons mentioned so I moved to the next likeliest suspect.

Perci was being very agreeable and that was potentially indicative of a scummy player wanting to put his best foot forward at the start of the game, the way he explained that he thought the desmond wagon was scum driven though was a tell in the opposite direction so I moved to the next player on the list, this being Algae.

Now at this point he was just the likeliest scum out of RVS and after having interacted with a bunch of players that had made a stronger impression, but his later excuse (arguably this falls under a specific type of game avoidance) post fits a scum tell of mine I have already described (which I illustrated in other games as well and I was right there), the fact he presented himself as not being part of the group that decided whom to lynch and later the fact that my early town reads joined the wagon have strengthened the read instead of going in the opposite direction, like with Titus and Perci.

It's not so much you unvoting as that you're actually in support of an algae lynch.

Why do you think supporting an Algae lynch is scum indicative?

[copper223]

@Thor
Titus's case had more than 1 point to it, boiled down she is accusing you of fake scum hunting.

Her first point was:

For emphasis. Move beyond why me/fry me.

So that's part of the case.

She then moved on to accuse you of using IIoA (I include setup spec in this category) to cover up your fake scum hunting.

Can you quote where you say she has been doing the same thing?

On a side note, OMGUS cases are extremely hard to judge correctly, the times I've been most wrong as town were when I knew the other player was spouting complete nonsense about me and I became convinced they had to be scum because their perspective was so far from the truth (as I saw it).

I have some concerns about being pocketed by Titus and about her activity level in this game being lower compared to other meta I've seen of her, but at the moment it's understandable since we are waiting for replacements and she is making an active effort to engage other players.

[copper223]

@Thor

Fair enough, wmfm was the part I focused on the most because it explains why a conflict would exist and ties in with my reads but it might be confbiasing from me as well.

There is a superficial difference between Titus's: ask yourself why x and y did not vote z and your: why is the second vote bad and not the third, I disagree that this has to be purely setup speculation, although the terminology used may lead someone to view it in that way, Titus comes off more scummy here especially because she then asks you to clarify more theory points in a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, what's up with those questions Titus?

Calling your questions to Perci a case and berating Titus for not factoring that into her analysis is weak, you did not directly generate a public read from it (Perci is still null in your readlist and he was the focus of the why the second and not the third) and shortly thereafter moved to Titus without apprently resolving this line of enquiry; here I am leaning more on Titus's side of the fence, if you are claiming this was a major scum hunting effort on your part that Titus misrepped or ignored that is OMGUS or BS.

[copper223]

That correction doesn't work with the timeline Thor, Titus's claim was that your: why the second, and not the third, is just setup spec without substance and not scum hunting, you saying: but on page 7 I gain a read on Charl. for totally different reasons (not overtly stated but I assume for refusing to answer why we should stop scum hunting?) is not germane to the discussion of whether or not you were faking it on page 2 and whether or not Titus could interpret it that way.

Are you still confused about it yourself Thor?

[copper223]

My mistake, I'm using search words to filter and it found your interaction on page 7 (which would not be relevant, that's why I said you did not openly say why you were scum reading charl. and it didn't count) but I missed your earlier case, where you do actually say you are leaning scum on Charl. because he might be trying to fake generic town caution while not being proactive himself.

For reference this is the case:

I am the kind of person who acts on impulse, so i just expressed my emotions without even thinking about any alternatives. I still don't think that L-1 at RvS is a good idea, but if it's what everybody wants, then who am i to stop them?

Apparently you are you - and you did try to stop them, yeah?

I, personally, think that L-1 is the only good thing that exists on Day 1, regardless of if it happens in RVS or not. Because I believe this - I try to convince other people of this because I think it's the best way to win the game as town (or I'm scum needing to fake the best way to win - same difference). So, if I hold a strategy belief, is it not incumbent on me to advance what I think is the best strategy? In reverse - does the same not hold true for you? We win as a team, not a solo act, so if everyone is playing "badly" in your mind, shouldn't you be trying to explain why, and lead us down the proper path.

I will admit from this questioning that I don't think you know the proper path, and I'm okay with that. But I am concerned that your strategy appears to be to sit back and wag a finger and not do anything else of seeming note. It makes me feel like you're trying to look like town while not actually helping town. Maybe you're doing this because you have no clue how else to play, and maybe you're doing this because you're scum.

I'm starting to lean scum - you don't feel proactive at all.

After re-reading this I agree that Titus saying you were only setup speculating without drawing conclusions is very forced to say the least.

If ETL is to be believed that's a sign that {Titus, Root} are the scum pair and Titus swooped in to rescue her teammate from your pressure (also I'm reporting Charl after this game for strategically replacing out if this is what is going on).

[copper223]

VOTE: Titus

[copper223]

First he asks us to stop scum hunting, then he claims you are being aggressive and then he leaves in a huff (like talking to a wall doesn't really apply if he is scum does it?), if he was scum that reads like a strategy to me, but that's not relevant at the moment.

What I also found relevant after revisiting your interaction with Charl. is the way Root in his entry insisted the Algae wagon is "very bad".

Claiming it's scum driven to get an early mis-lynch is definitely a possibility for a neutral observer, but bad implies that we should know Algae is town here which is just a ridiculous statement to make unless you know he is.

[copper223]

@Root, Engage me here please. Hi. I have lovely eyes. Stare into my soul.

Sum total of the interaction between Titus and Charl.; Titus telling Charl. that personal attacks are frowned upon (to which he did not reply).

@Nahdia
Don't you think that town_Titus's reaction to unkown_Charl. telling her to ease off the pressure on Thor would be to tell him to GTFO? Instead not a peep; then as soon as Root enters the game we get the gem I quoted above.

@Titus
The game makes a lot of sense now that I've made the switch to {you, root}, I was uncontested town mayor for a while, likely cause while I have done a decent job of showing I'm town and recognizing that Nahdia and Perci are likely town as well, I was also dumbly town reading the whole scum team as well, so why would anyone cast doubt on me?

The read I gave about you not wanting to box yourself in doesn't work if I fucked up and included your buddy in the early town list, then you actually want to agree with me to get the best of both worlds.

[copper223]

@Copper, Yeah, I haven't interacted with Charl. Charl was obvtown. Just confirming with root but the slots are town. You interact to sort or persuade. Charl was also voting Thor. Root immediately changed the vote. Why?

Is that supposed to help your case? In general most players that sub into a game unvote (so it could be null), but in this case it's likely indicative once again that you are teammates, Root comes into the game, sees the whole scum team is voting for 1 player and OMG let's not drop associative like that, let me unvote quickly.

It would also explain his weird behavior re. the Algae wagon, could be he started with the most promising wagon when moving his vote and then decided to get creative for town cred after reading up, or he planned the whole reaction test to show how townie and ready to scumhunt he is. The problem there is that his position that the Algae's wagon is "very bad" is pretty unlikely to come from an uninformed townie and I think he got overly clever with that play.

Protecting your teammates is something I heard ETL say you have a tendency to do as scum.

[copper223]

Also I find it unlikely that you would tolerate someone telling you how to play like you did when not reacting to Charl. telling us 3 to take a pill, unless you had an ulterior motive not to say anything.

[copper223]

@Titus
It would have been nice of you to tell me why my case on Algae was bad when you asked for it, instead of now that you are defending root's position.

I'm trying to read you based on what I expect you to do, I'm not telling you what to do in the first place, that's all up to you.

[copper223]

@Root
You are trying to sell a narrative instead of scum hunting.

I did not say he was the scummiest "by far", I said going down the list he was the

third

player I wanted to engage at RVS and like Perci and Nahdia pointed out now and I did at the time his follow up was just weird, sorry if it doesn't look like that way to you and Titus but it's likely easier when you know the player's alignment to pontificate about him being completely null.

[copper223]

@Root

Gonna join the vote someone train.

Translation: I am just conforming, not responsible for my voting, please move on and ignore me.
The interesting part is that he already feels the need to justify himself.

I already explained why his entry was potentially scummy, so here it is again.

How do you move from, he was the third person of interest after engaging Titus and Perci to: you claimed he was the scummiest by far which is BS since he had just posted once so you are scum?

Not at all. YOUR entire case on algae was trying to sell a narrative on his very few, nondescript posts. I am pointing that out and calling you out as scum for it.

Really? That's why I engaged players, asked them to review my case and unvoted when Algae could have been hammered without having a chance to reply, that's totally peddling a narrative... I think the difference between our approaches is pretty obvious, if someone that is not Root or Titus doesn't see it I'll be happy to clarify further.

[copper223]

Uhhhhh.What?

Sorry but you can't play the game like this, if you're town pick one of us and read what we have said, then post what you believed that player's motivation was for saying what he said.

You also have unanswered questions from me after you posted that you did not want anyone to be lynched I'd like a reply to.

[copper223]

UNVOTE:
Ok Titus, I'll go over this one more time after work because every time I look at this thread I see what Nahdia summed up as a bunch of massive walls of dense garbage between you and Thor and my eyes glaze over, I don't want to miss something hidden in there.

I still dislike the whole AtE play you made on me to try and get me to vote Thor after the logical arguments stalled (and you used that 95% certain on Thor likely knowing I'd normally view it as something silly town is more likely going to say, the whole post reeks of manipulation, which admittedly is not = scum all the time but often enough).

Welcome to the game House; he seems pretty town to me if Desmond's "vanilla variety" wasn't enough.

[copper223]

@Titus
It's not so much that I'm town reading Thor (although one or two posts pinged me as more likely town), it's that I buy his argument that your case on him is so stretched it's coming from scum_Titus over your arguments for scum_Thor.

- I disagree that Thor was guilty of setup speccing to avoid scum hunting, the kind of questions he asked out of RVS I've seen before from town_Thor (what he calls being mechanically oriented) and since he reached a very clear conclusion at least in one instance (I am leaning scum on Charl.) you reiterating over and over that he was doing nothing with it as a cover up just sounds like BS from scum.

- I am suspicious of how far you are willing to commit to Root's read of Algae (and your interaction with Charl. in general) after he gave it and got flak from me and Nahdia for it, but how you ignored the wagon when it was at L-2. You explicitly asked me to give you my case, at that point it would have been in your best interest as town, if you had a read on Algae being town and getting wagoned for a silly mechanical fauxpas, to quickly tell me that I was barking up the wrong three, especially because given your own reads I managed to convince most of the rest of town to vote with me.

[copper223]

[quote="In post 330, Titus"]2.) Percifrax - #11 starts with the newb town tone read. I've got some reads forming, but I dunno if they are right. #14, He's trying to understand thought processes here. Why did one player do this over that particular wagon? -- I would go through the rest of his ISO in detail but it all is the same tone. You can see the gears turning in his thread. If only I could fucking get him to see Thor is a hollow shell. He had it before, but not now. He starts to dismiss it in 252 as just how Thor plays. That's based on Thor's own self meta. I've been saying Thor isn't that way at all though. Yet, just because Percifrax is wrong doesn't make him scum in the slightest.

Shared read, although if all of Thor, Algae, Root and Titus are town Persi. might be just that good at faking it (maybe Nahdia as a teammate?), Bellaphant sheeped me around pretty convincingly in her first game on site as scum, I started to doubt her only when I actually hit her teammate and she didn't follow suit with the sheep. At the moment though I'm town reading him.

3.) Titus - Town Jailkeeper, frustrated to death Day 1.

In the absence of cc confirmed

4.) Algae - #88, Scum don't likely go against an IC so early. It's clear that this guy is a total newbie. If this was a deliberate push by scum, you'd think he'd unvote? No. He didn't.

Algae never went against Thor and I disagree wit the tell as well, read his ISO again, remove the filter of newbie and tell me why he is town.

5.) Desmond_13 * House - VT claim at the start. Scum don't box themselves in like that usually.

Shared

6.) Nahdia - #15 and #74 are good posting to me. She's being clear that people can think differently and be town. We're in the same place on our town core. It's just Root that's the problem.

Shared unless taking advantage with Persi. of our derp pushes on Thor/Algae/Root, don't see it as of now.

7.) Root (SE) Charloux (SE) - Charloux carries this read for me. Charloux saw Thor was an empty suit before Charloux replaced out. The tone of saying that yeah I don't like where this is going is open and honest. Thor immediately jumped down Charloux's throat, which is bad. Charloux held his own there. I wanted to talk to Root because he did the obligatory subbed in and unvoted thing.

This is a dangerous read, you think he is town because he agreed with you, so it all depends on Thor's alignment and how inclined Charl. would be to buss. If I am in town_Thor's shoes and you push on me in the same way I also scum read you.

I can buy your Ness logic (with the understandable caveat of very little content to go on) more than your Thor logic

[copper223]

I'll give you that if you are convinced Thor is scum Algae is likely town.

[copper223]

@House
So what do you think of Root's entry?

[copper223]

Nahdia did ease off a lot after getting those sweet town reads early on and fence sitting the Thor/Titus debate while giving Thor an alternative wagon on his other scum read is a sound move as scum regardless of whether Thor is her teammate or not, but 13 and her early interaction in general with Persi. sounded a lot like town explaining what's what to newer town to me.

I took the not entirely random as meaning she was going for a newbie to get a better reaction (the same argument I made when questioning Titus for starting with a Thor RVS), which I also found more likely to come from town.

[copper223]

Scum have more motivation to appear helpful than town, especially in newbie games where new players can be swayed by such helpfulness.

I agree, that's why I am re-evaluating the read now that I have very likely new info. from Titus, but it's not that easy to fake exactly the right tone.

Scum copper doesn't cast doubt on his teammates, if you want to use my meta.

[copper223]

That includes saying x did this that is potentially scummy, but that which is potentially town (not only is that fence sitting which is always dangerous as scum, it's likely that you would mention something that is scummy only because you already know that player's alignment and screw both players over).

[copper223]

@House
Anyway I get the paranoia and your vote on Nahdia is going to help me read the game regardless, but I'd like a review of the rest of the players as well (if you haven't said everything that jumped out to you already).

[copper223]

It means you have been inactive for too long, after a certain number of prods you get replaced.

[copper223]

I'm going to call the scum team {Ness, Algae}

This is where I am back at with Root as the outsider preferred over Thor, man if I was right you can worship my altar the next time we play...

So, I disagree with many plays that have been made but it's not up to me to tell you how to play the game so I will spare you the sermon.

Nahdia, being confident in her "always wins as scum" status is unlikely to claim BP to save her butt when there isn't even a strong wagon on her, so I'm pretty confident she is town.

House's and Thor's pushes on the closest thing we have to confirmed town are similar and more likely town indicative (cause you are dumber when you're town), in my game Thor has almost unerringly found decent motivation for lynching the wrong player as town, so I may be biased by the sample size into giving him more of a pass than I should, but that's where I am at with him; Titus I also already told you that your push looked sketchy from a neutral observer perspective, so Thor going after you I don't think is AI. House I don't think is likely scum here, but we haven't played in a while and Desmond did leave after claiming so I supposed it's not completely off the table, definitely not a good D1 lynch though.

Give Algae some credit people, the disgrace he has been posting is more likely scum indicative, he said the latest game he played he was caught immediately, may-hap he decided that the best way not to be caught is not to post anything at all? (Also if I'm right Titus and Root, I want a written apology for sabotaging an easy game) I also find it strange that he seems to be following the game relatively closely and doesn't seem to want to drop out, but is not sharing his thoughts in the slightest other than to use "the newbie card" to brush away his play.

I've checked back on Ness after reading Titus's read and I agree with her, he did sound pretty bummed that I had early reads, could also be that he though I was BSing but that tone is likely what pinged me subconsciously as well at the time.

Root is a bit of an OMGUS read for me so I'm willing to take Titus's perspective over mine today that a townie might react like he did wrt the Algae wagon, I still think there's a chance that was a: should or shouldn't I buss scenario for him, he started with the buss, then found a reason to change his mind, but that's speculation without an Algae flip.

[copper223]

I fake claimed doctor on d1 when my wagon was l-2 and went on to win the game. Bonus... there were NO other claims on which to base my fake claim.

Are you saying Nahdia, who is oh so awesome as scum, lacks the capacity to fake claim and win when she has the knowledge of the scum team roles as well as a claimed PR to shape her fake claim around?

C'mon, man.

She doesn't lack the capacity, she lacked the need, if you're good at scum (or think you are) you are confident you can get out of most sticky situations just by posting and claiming BP restricts your options unnecessarily.

Your gambit was fine at L-2, doing so with 1 vote on you when other players including the other PR have town reads on you in this setup would have been really bad.

Now in Nahdia's case you are right that she already knew Titus had claimed JK (so first off if we assume Nahdia scum, Titus is 100% confirmed other than assuming trolls have other PR's and are not claiming, which we will not consider).

If there is a RB, Nahdia just risked getting counter claimed and that would be her lynch today or tomorrow, a 1 for 1 trade is bad for scum so this is not where we are at, either Nahdia is the BP or there is no BP.

The only case where it's viable is if scum is made up by 2 goons and Nahdia is one of them, if this were a lylo situation I'd consider it, as is D1 with the number of assumptions you have to make (including scum forfeiting a juicy fake claim in the future when they may actually need it), she is just not a good lynch.

Find her teammate (without using associations or you taint that read as well if you are wrong) if you are dead set on that read cause she is not getting lynched today.

[copper223]

How is: "I am pretty sure she is town", followed by my explanation for why, after we already had a back and forth before she claimed where I considered the possibility of her being scum if she was taking advantage of bad pushes from town, not even considering? I considered it, I found it unlikely.

The fact you are already excluding a setup to warp the conditions to fit your scum read is not a trivial point by the way.

[copper223]

Column A.

[copper223]

@Perci
Titus Nahdia is not a possible scum team (excluding they decided to commit harakiri and Ness is a PR that can cc cause ).

[copper223]

We really need the replacements or the inactives to continue this.

[copper223]

Nahdia/Thor/copper - 5,6,7 Why are we naked RVSing a noob who hasn't posted? NAI because there is scum and town motivation but this just strikes me as odd...

What's odd about it, RVS is about reactions and you are going to get them from newbies much more often than from vets.

copper - 30,32 uhh what? disagree with this

Specifically what do you disagree with and why is that relevant?

Copper - 49 (part addressed to Thor) Ugh I don't like the response to Thor. I hate the "I'll just sit back and see approach" because if townies do it, scum can do it. You can keep doing it though, because I don't think you're town.

We either strongly disagree on how to play at RVS or you have a vested interested in being consistent with your slot's scum reads. I do this in every game, what I'm looking for are reactions to being wagoned, cross votes between scum that start arguing with each other and seem to know too much about the other player's motivation, other tells you are not going to get.

Copper - 53 Algae vote out of nowhere? This really feels like scum looking busy to me.

What an interesting way to phrase it:

But suddenly in post 146, Copper somewhat reveals that he actually has a scumread on algae

Why did the Algae vote in particular ping you, and not the vote on Perci, that was also "out of nowhere" no? Possibly you are trying to remain consistent with what Root said here and if you've already read the thread this catch-up is just scum theater.

Copper - 126 I think this is kind of laughable... I'm not sold on Titus scum but I don't think that is good logic.

Again what point are you making, other than trying to discredit? Do you claim that read is made up? (It's funny that you picked that post to call it laughable considering Titus's reaction).

copper - 161 You're pretty sure Char is town but you are now going to consider a scum team of Perc/Char? Anyone else think this is weird?

Anyone else think it's weird that I'm going to re-evaluate my reads when new information comes into the thread? This is really a bad argument, especially cause I'm saying I

would

be pretty sure that this is town frustration boiling over, if x hadn't happened as well, not what you claim I have said. Also why use weird which again is a NAI comment?

[copper223]

Town: {Titus}
Probtown: {House, Nahdia}
Null: {Ness, Algae}
Scum lean: {Thor, Perc, Copper}

This readlist is pretty scummy, I am going to keep all my options open on every player that can be wagoned today is what you are saying => rope.

VOTE: Murder

[copper223]

Cause voting Thor is unlikely to generate a wagon (newbies don't like to vote the IC) nor is it likely going to give you a read on him. Voting a newbie will likely produce a more interesting reaction, don't you think?

This is the first one I noticed, seems weirdly protective of Thor. Like, votes cause wagons, that's literally what a wagon is, a collection of votes.

Already explained this, it's about what reactions you can expect to get from newbies vs vets.

@Thor
I wanted to see how the rest of the players reacted to RVS and what else would pop up before starting my own line of inquiry.

Maybe it's just me but I always think stuff like this is BS. What specifically were you looking for? If you just give vague reasons you aren't actively scum hunting then scum is allowed to do it too. (And like I said before, if you are scum you're doing great, this game will be easy.)

Also already explained, I think I was very actively scum hunting as shown by all the reads I gave as soon as RVS ended and I started engaging Titus.

53 I mentioned that I didn't like this vote on Algae. It's definitely a scum tactic to place a vote and only give reasoning when called for, but I'll admit that the reasons that were given seemed ok so this gets a pass for now.

False, I know many players that nake vote regardless of alignment, but okay, not necessarily scummy. What I do find scummy is again the selective reading on your part, as I don't give any reason to vote for Perci but that is of no interest to you?

I don't think it's very likely Titus is scum because she agreed with me on a bunch of town-reads so early and added one s well that seems to pan out, you really don't want to limit your options that much as scum if you don't have to.

Thor called this out too. Titus is perfectly capable of getting out of town reads she made early in the game if she is scum. Now that I know Titus is town I don't really know what to make of this though. Maybe if I'm stretching it then it's a bit of a white knight? Titus did have some pressure on her at that point and was maybe headed towards a lynch. Copper eventually voted there though so maybe not.

this doesn't even make sense, massive confbias or trying really hard to find something scummy to add to your case.

@Perci
If he replace out as scum like this I won't be pleased.

I'd be pretty sure this was town frustration boiling over (excessively in my opinion, Thor is blunt but Charl. showed he is immature as well) but now that you have cross defended each other a {Charl_rep, Perci} team is something to consider, still not very likely though.

This just reads as scum keeping options open to me. Like if he ever gets called out for saying charl is town and going back on it he can say "it wasn't that strong look at the next line, I'm considering her as scum!!" I just don't see why you feel the need to say you are willing to consider a scum team of two players right after you say you are town reading one of them. (Also this fits nicely with my idea of Perc being scum, because if perc and cop are scum team and perc flips then cop can come back and say oh wait remember that thing with Char? But preflip associations and all that, I'll try not to consider that yet.)

This is a again a really bad argument, you are missing the

would

part of that read, I'm saying the frustration with Thor seemed real (which makes him more likely to be town) but other posts are making me cautious about that read, not like you are claiming: Charl is town, but hey Charl can also be scum with Perci.

[copper223]

EBWOP

@Perci
If he replace out as scum like this I won't be pleased.
I'd be pretty sure this was town frustration boiling over (excessively in my opinion, Thor is blunt but Charl. showed he is immature as well) but now that you have cross defended each other a {Charl_rep, Perci} team is something to consider, still not very likely though.

This just reads as scum keeping options open to me. Like if he ever gets called out for saying charl is town and going back on it he can say "it wasn't that strong look at the next line, I'm considering her as scum!!" I just don't see why you feel the need to say you are willing to consider a scum team of two players right after you say you are town reading one of them. (Also this fits nicely with my idea of Perc being scum, because if perc and cop are scum team and perc flips then cop can come back and say oh wait remember that thing with Char? But preflip associations and all that, I'll try not to consider that yet.)

This is a again a really bad argument, you are missing the

would

part of that read, I'm saying the frustration with Thor seemed real (which makes him more likely to be town) but other posts are making me cautious about that read, not like you are claiming: Charl is town, but hey Charl can also be scum with Perci.[/quote]

[copper223]

In case this got lost in the walling, the possibly very important point there is that

like his predecessor Murder has a lot to say about my naked Algae vote, but completely ignored my naked Perci vote

, I find that an unlikely coincidence.

The second big no no is his "read list", which is not so much a read list as a collection of the claims that have been made (which are at least ordered by likely-hood of being town) and everyone else he claims can hang or hasn't posted enough to be read, I find that also unlikely.

From a town perspective what are the chances that all the town-reads you have made while reading match the given claims , are thus absorbed and you are left with only null or scumreads? Not very high.

From a scum perspective you have a vested interest in scum reading as many of the rest as you can, especially with so many claims already in the open, to be able to stay flexible (yep that was really a laughable read Murder...) and I think this is a more likely explanation of that list.

[copper223]

@Nahdia
I will pull a Fate here and ask you too sheep my vote, good things will happen.

[copper223]

@Murder
2 of these 3 are the likely scum-team {Algae, Mizzy, Murder}.

[copper223]

My issue is that the naked vote on Perci suddenly disappeared (like you just wanted to throw a vote over there) and that the reasons for the algae read you had only came much later.

Suddenly not suddenly at all:

Ok Perci, I disagree with the logic but this is the first post that sounds like something paranoid town would come up with.

I explained this at the time, when he said he was looking for 2 scum on the RVS wagon and that the second slot is usually where scum lands on, I made the connection to much shorter mafia game types and I understood that was at least a reasonable attempt to scum hunt and that was why I started town reading him.

You are really reaching here, nothing in your initial post implied the naked vote on Algae pinged you because I quickly moved off of the naked vote on Perci (which as explained above is not a good argument anyway).

[copper223]

Can you explain how you giving those 3 is different from me giving my 3?

Certainly, my reads are in-game and based (each explained at the time it happened and what prompted me to read that player that way depending on what you guys are posting), your read list happens to match the claims 1 to 1 for town and calls the rest null if they haven't posted much (a nice and safe position to take and in my world where you are also likely hiding your buddy as newer scum players tend to do) or scum if they have. That makes me think with a decent degree of certainty that it's not an organic read list.

[copper223]

Why do you find it a scummy coincidence/plan?
Like, i agree it's a bit odd as far as random percentage chance of happening, but what's the scum plan there that would make them both do it?

Scum likes to keep their scum read consistent and a player subbing in and keeping the same reads as his predecessor while reusing the same arguments (while he's supposed to be catching up and thus hasn't read what his predecessor has said yet) is a very obvious tell that they are lying. It comes from being afraid of having to justify a read switch because you might slip in the process.

Are you lying to us or misunderstanding his post that much?
I presume the second, but if that's the case - why are you skimming a post and then acting like you have analyzed it well?

Which post am I misunderstanding or mis-repping according to you?

[copper223]

@Thor
Ok I see your point, after reading the Algae read Root gave coming from Murder at the start of the catch-up my working theory is that the rest of the catch-up is scum theater and I did not examine what he said to other players in great detail.

Regardless of how it happened, the end result is still unnatural, if you have a town read on Thor for pushing Titus and then Titus claims, why do you then switch to Thor being scum? Why do you then think Nahdia is prob. town, House's reaction of continuing to cast doubt is much more natural (I have seen a townie in a game with Drixx that insisted on voting confirmed town until he was basically policy lynched).

My point still stands, that is not a read list that is going to come from town most of the time.

[copper223]

I explained it quite clearly. Thor I think looked scummy because it seemed like he was trying to doubt cast the claims, which I think now might not be the case because he did back off. And yeah, knowing someone is confirmed town changes how I interpret an interaction.

That's the reaction I expect from a townie that gets hard information that goes against his belief, he starts to explain why it was a good read anyway and x is just bad at the game then (like what Thor said to Titus about not wanting to have a rep for being irrational in her cases).

You seamlessly made the transition between reads and that makes it more likely there was no conviction behind them to begin with cause they were made up.

[copper223]

Let's go back to the other major point of contention, why didn't the switch between Titus and Perci. that I made which happened first and in a very similar manner to the Perci. Algae switch, give you the same scum vibe?

[copper223]

Ok, this at least makes some sense if you think copper Perci. is a thing.

[copper223]

VOTE: Algae
I'll take another look at Perci. and at your case on him after work.

[copper223]

That feels kind of paper thin to me, but, okay, I get where you're coming from.
I don't see a lot of identical stances between them other than that though - so if the concept was he was trying to mirror their stances, wouldn't they be more mirrored?

The important one that gets mirrored most often is the main scum read.

Because from his stance I just full on assaulted two confirmed townies in a row?
That...makes sense as an issue, no?

Depends on the player and the state of the game (how advance it is) but in general no, it's also not the reason Murder claimed.

[copper223]

Thor I think looked scummy because it seemed like he was trying to doubt cast the claims, which I think now might not be the case because he did back off. And yeah, knowing someone is confirmed town changes how I interpret an interaction.

[copper223]

I did not say the reason he gave implied him being scum setting up reads.

[copper223]

Fuck, no way I'm getting a re-read done today. Trying to focus on the words is making my head hurt. Yay heat based insomnia. Sorry guys.

No motivation to play a compromised slot? I understand.

[copper223]

That is taken from commentary long after you made the claim - so is not functional as evidence.

It's a clearer reformulation of a comment he made before and that's why I cited this instead of the earlier one:

Thor - 468 More PR voting... Why are we not beliving these claims? Until there's a cc I think they are both legit.
Oh I see, if scum are two goons then BP is a safe fake claim. Hmm.
On the Nahdia point, we aren't lynching her today obviously. If the claim is fake then our goal is the same, we lynch scum. If we lynch scum, then Titus figures out if Nahdia is legit or not. So lets stop talking about Nahdia and start trying to lynch the other scum please.

You did say that he seemed to be settling in on reads whereupon the town reads would be the PRs and the scum reads basically everyone else - you can call that whatever you wish, it is what I meant by what I said.

That's not exactly the same but yeah I'll admit I looked at his first catch-up and the comments addressed to me when I came online, saw the Root read again, started to think he was scum, then found his case on me and finally the readlist which seemed super scummy as well so I wrote the case against him without properly backtracking how his reads changed to reach such a scummy looking list (seemed clear that was a continuation of how scum he was at the time, look at my comment to Nahdia for instance where I ask her to sheep).

You will note I unvoted so he managed to explain his reads at least to a certain degree. I agree on your House losing town points comment, House can tunnel players irrationally as town but he knows his town meta and he does the same as scum and this is a bit over the top.

[copper223]

For me it's how antagonistic and fighty he is being with Murder, which is also how he first approached me, but he basically ran away from pressuring me as soon as I fired back, to my mind that reads like he's looking for a slot to bully into looking scum, and wants no part of a fight - despite this I'm still listed as a scum read of his and a viable lynch today, even though he's pushing me in no way and for some reason Algae has become more scum than me despite that I'm pushing on Algae, and Algae has done nothing since House voted and then unvoted me. Feels bully flavor of the week, really.

My counter to all that, is that I actually rather kind of liked Desmond for town due to gut and derp.

Let's lynch Algae today. I'm guessing I'm obligated to be wrong on a town read currently, but I think that's a good flip for Day 1.

This makes a lot of sense and he did something similar to me with his push after I defended the Nahdia BP claim. House injected a bit of paranoia with his copper is good at scum post and why isn't he sussing Nahdia, does he know she is town, but after players fired back that no, copper is still likely town, he claimed he was fake scumreading me to see if someone would bite.

I feel the same about Desmond and that's why I am not sold one way or the other.

Algae is a good lynch, but given we have extra time to decide and he is getting replaced and we still have 7 days after that I don't feel the need to decide on the lynch now, besides Mizzy is pinging me and I want to see some content from him.

[copper223]

Current readlist, town to scum:

{Titus}
{Nahdia, Thor}
{Murder}
{House}
{Algae, Mizzy}

In fact, let's do this:

VOTE: Mizzy

[copper223]

Here are the main ones that pinged me, plus not really being involved lately.

Basically, why am I scummier than Copper and deserve a vote while he doesn't even deserve a mention?

I do find copper's previous vote for desmond suspicious, but the fact that he just changed his vote to me suggests that he's put just trying to get someone lynched, since the vote count for desmond was still high when he voted against me. It makes him less likely to be scum trying to get a townie lynched and is also possible evidence that he's legitimately trying to lynch the suspicious.

My theory remains that a scum would be likely to be one to join a wagon, though, narrowing it down to Thor, Copper (although I'm suspecting him less and less for my previously mentioned reasons), and Algae. However, it seems to me that Algae was just in a hurry and needed to vote for someone quickly, therefor making them less suspicious. He hasn't posted enough for me to really read into yet.

I really hate this post. Thor called it out too. The question is why is Thor scummier than Cop as of post 8. Perc then answers with 'I did find it scummy but a recent action looks towny.' So Perc dodged the direct question. It reads to me like Perc had some desire to find a scumread on Thor, placed his vote there, and then backed off cop when questioned.

That wasn't his motivation. I also buy that Perci.'s meta knowledge was that the second vote on a wagon in particular is scummy and that the information he had was significantly different when the Algae wagon formed.

Ah, I was wondering what was with the votes against Algae. Ness's post did strike me as suspicious but I didn't really see enough to really work with here. I guess I assumed the wagon for Algae was to get his response or something. I think I can trust Copper and that read makes sense. Plus Thor seems to be a really aggressive townie with a good cause to be suspicious of Titus (who strikes me as meh at the moment). Anyway, I think it's about time that I change my vote since the information that it stands on is irrelevant on this site, it seems.

UNVOTE: Thor

VOTE: Algae

This just feels like a weird back pedal especially with the "about time I change my vote" part. I don't know that really pings me. Like, he knows that he is moving his vote for a reason other than he has a new top scum read (or is applying pressure). Plus this is just going along with the game state, IMO. Thor looks towny here and Algae is being pressured.

The above reads to me like this: I don't have anything better and the tell I used likely doesn't work here, however 2 players I am town reading moved their vote to Algae so that's a place to go to; I do understand why the "time to move my vote" part pinged you though.

Sorry about that wait between my posts. I had to take care of something irl. Anyway, here we go:

Suppose that I buy your logic that "the second vote on somebody is scummy because it starts a wagon", why did you never attack Nadhia for placing the second vote on algae without even mentioning him in any of her previous posts?

As I explained, that logic seems not to apply to mafiascum. I actually didn't really notice that Nahdia's vote was the second on the seemingly semi-random wagon against Algae, which turned out not to be so random after all, either. However, even if I had noticed, the heavy opposition to my logic there from other players would have kept be for voting against Nahdia for that. Plus, I've been getting town vibes from her so far, whereas when I voted for Thor in the beginning nobody had really said anything with enough to get any "vibes" from. That vote was just from experience on other sites, nothing else.

This just pings me because it feels like he is going way over the top trying to explain page 1 actions, you know? Like, if the point is "I didn't notice" then why not just say that?

I also don't find the above scummy, he was asked a direct question and I understand the logic of his answer, basically he is saying that by the time the Algae wagon formed he had discarded the 2 on the wagon tell so he didn't even notice it

and

he had a towread on Nahdia (that's relevant information), whereas in the Thor case he only had the tell to rely on.

There isn't much here, however House's placement of Perci. is unreasonably high in my opinion, and if Thor's theory that House might be scum hammering at townies until he finds a weakness to exploit, the fact he has given Perci. of all people a pass might be scum indicative (House has Mizzy pretty high as well though, so he may also be avoiding LHFs if he were to flip scum).

{Titus}
{Nahdia, Thor}
{Murder, Perci}
{House}
{Algae, Mizzy}

[copper223]

Nah, compromised brain. Trying to make reads when I was struggling to get through a page was a bad idea.

What you mean by compromised? Either you mean it's unavoidably scummy in which case you are a) wrong and b) why did you only just vote me? Or you think it's compromised in some other way I can't imagine in which case I can still help.

I'm feeling better today, anything anyone wants me to focus on when I read through?

Start with your position on the 3 claims, what do you think about them?

[copper223]

It's hard to postulate Desmond was having a panic attack

and

he claimed not of the chocolate variety (I disagree btw if that's the point you are making that he was trying to hide the claim somehow, it felt clearly tongue-in-cheek to me), but on the other hand it might have been a calculated comment to make us town read the claim.

[copper223]

mod: how is the replacement search going?

Mizzy:
Is the rest of the catch-up incoming?

[copper223]

I am not interested in discussing it, you can figure out for yourself what Titus may or may not do and leave it up to her.

[copper223]

@Performer
Explain why you find me scummy, what I've seen from your reads are a pile of OMGUS (can't really scumread Nahdia anymore cause of the claim but that was in there too, and you didn't re-assess at all after reading that claim and where the likely townie was voting) based on a read you claim to have had before the game started (because hey you have played 20 games so you can recognize newb-town...) that actually misinterprets what Algae said.

[copper223]

Hey guys, I'm so sorry but something unexpected has come up irl and I'm afraid I won't be able to remain active in this game. Since it would be unfair if I just waited for the prod and replacement, @Mod could you replace me? I'm so sorry about this, I had no idea the things irl would happen

IRL comes first, like Murder said I hope it's nothing serious and to see you back on the forum.

[copper223]

I also think Mizzy has a good chance of being scum, so does Performer.

[copper223]

Both, you know what I think of the previous slot so this is about him.

The first thing he does is mention how happy he is that his slot is town as expected invoking the mod (and giving a BS reason), maybe he's just a guy that likes to say whatever pops up in his mind and wrote super quickly his first message while he had that still in mind, but that's also a manipulative statement that tries to give credence to the previous slot being town and that's how I interpret it.

His reaction to the Nahdia claim is also rather scummy, scum often make a big deal out of town misplaying to mask their real emotions and because they think that's how they ought to react, it's a different version of the famous poker tell that when a player looks weak he is holding a monster and vice versa.

His scumreads are all about his slot and survivalistic (are you scum reading me => you're bad, no reason or logic given for it even when presented with contrasting evidence like Nahdia following the same pattern), I don't see a lot of conviction either (if you think copper is trying to mislynch poor town algae, are you likely just going to post a catch-up and leave, or are you going to try and lynch the guy by hammering down how town you are to the rest of the players?).

As scum however you are fine if the town slides into apathy and that's what's happening here with all the inactivity.

[copper223]

@Performer
You did not address it, you stated it.

Your only argument is: town can't possibly keep voting the mostly inactive, lurker but not willing to drop off until recently slot I subbed into because I managed to town read him (by misinterpreting what he wrote), so copper is scum for not doing so.

Any "experienced player" (hello my friend, I still have e-mails around from the 1990's when I wrote to the guy who created this game) will tell you that argument is not worth the toilet paper you would need to write it on, and if you are actually as experienced as you claim to be you are much more likely to be scum just for making a case like this, the likely-hood of which I am going to check tomorrow.

[copper223]

VOTE: Perfomre
I am ok with either him or Mizzy, no lynch is not ok.

[copper223]

VOTE: Mizzy
Ok let's go with this first.

[copper223]

@Performer
744: It was a given, because at the time he wrote "reaction-test" post the unvote had already happened (i.e. given by definition), not only a bad point but in this case factually incorrect.
755: A rehash of the same argument you are making adding in that I was back and forth on Titus as well as some sort of proof, again if you're town get over the idea that town doesn't push town, it's ridiculous.

[copper223]

F that Murder, Performer has Mizzy as a scum read and after we switch to him (his likely teammate) he decides to ISO House (the guy you coincidentally have a boner for) at the eleventh hour and finds him scummy enought vote for him? I have a nice piece of land in the middle of the Atlantic for you after that vote.

@Performer
It's ok, with that vote you told me you are just scum and not territown.

@All
Mizzy or Performer are the lynch and Nahdia and Titus need a prod, this game is verging on the unplayable Drixx.

[copper223]

That's L-2, this is L-1

VOTE: Performer

[copper223]

Copper, why did you unvote my predec the first time I was put at L-1? Root replaced in, voted me, then you unvoted me so quick.

What's your thought process there?

I explained it at the time, this is a newbie with a lot of slot replacements, so a derp hammer chance increases quite a bit and I wanted to avoid that in case of an Algae town flip as it would likely screw us over for 2 days in a row (premature lynch on Algae and lynch of the derp hammerer tomorrow).

[copper223]

given the lack of prods in a deadline situation with a slot that needs to be replaced I request a freeze on the deadline

[copper223]

Skimming here as it's 6.30 and I have to go to work, the catch-up from Zyf seems reasonable at first glance and is making me think about things twice, the problem I have is that what Murder said is true, we tried to shift the lynch to your slot and there weren't many buyers.

[copper223]

I'd also like a lot more input today from Nahdia to dispel any thoughts of a BP gambit play.

[copper223]

Sorry Murder, worked from 6am to 10pm yesterday.

If House just volunteered for the ban list and really hammered as town we are in deep shit, we haven't ruled out Nahdia being a fake BP (at this point I'd just assume that hasn't happened at least for lylo or we are not winning folks and she got hella lucky).

In this world given the number of wrong pushes he made Thor is likely scum, if he managed to selectively push only town that's too bad but the chances that he is

picking

town to push on because with his style you can get away with mislynches becomes too high to ignore, if I'm not around that's who I'd gamble on.

We also have Perci who is quickly becoming a scum candidate and Zyf inherited a pretty shitty slot, I need to read in depth everything he has posted to see if it makes a difference or I was just fooled by him calling me top town.

Murder I still think is town based on how he reacted to my and House's counter pushes.

If House flips scum then that's fine, I'd be pissed if I were his teammate so check for that (I quickly read Zyf seemed to react like that so if that's the case he is a good lynch), also look for people that seem to be overly cheerful about it.

[copper223]

I think it's pretty unlikely that's a scum hammer.

[copper223]

Maybe if it's Thor House and House flipped him one with the self vote.

[copper223]

VOTE: zyf

[copper223]

VOTE: House

Let's do it.

:O
!!!!!
WTF
That's hammer!
What the actual heck house
Sorry if I did something to upset you...

This is scummy.

[copper223]

You are at L-2.

Yes it reads like you trying to sound like what you'd imagine an unhappy townie would; and the last part (sorry if it was me that made you mad) reads like you having a guilty conscience as I find little basis for you to assume it was your fault.

[copper223]

@House
I'm not happy with you if you're town, you inherited the close equivalent of an innocent child and are now one of the likeliest candidates for a lynch, I'd reflect on that if this is where we're at.

Even your latest makes little sense, I just said I think it's likelier that was a townie rage quit and you go and pick the cases where I cover your scum-flip (and why do you care about that unless you are thinking I may be scum, but then you berate me for being bad (i.e. town)...).

No clue what's going on anymore.

[copper223]

As I said, I think the way he differentiated between house and I when we both pushed on him was a decent town-tell, you have to be the kind of scum that can think about it from a townie perspective, decide which of the two cases is more likely to come from town and what the rest of town is likely going to think (and he was right given how fast house's town-reads disappeared), and then sound genuine in your selective OMGUS on one of us, I find it more likely he is just town and that was his natural reaction.

[copper223]

dont like either of these wagons

Start doing something to change the situation then.

[copper223]

@House
956

@Zyf
Are you finished complaining about meaningless things? Clearly if you read the thread you will find the question that post answers, in case you do not I'm am replying to Thor when he asked me what I think of Murdercat.

[copper223]

No it's L-1 and he clearly knows.

[copper223]

There is no question, you bring up 2 associations without a flip and claim I'm somehow contradictory for making them both, what is your point and why are you interested if you then call me bad town instead of scum?

[copper223]

That's scum claim if he flips town.

[copper223]

You may be right Murder.

[copper223]

why this

Dudette you really suck at this game lately...

[copper223]

@Zyf
You can't make "genuine" comments from the wrong alignment.

[copper223]

lately???????

Yep I had to meta dive you and some stuff was pretty good, but this game I think you're pretty off.

@All
So who sacks the RB here?

Initial reaction is that cerberus asking for time is Zyf's buddy, alternative is it's House being crazy, second and less likely Thor joined and the wagon got out of hand.

[copper223]

one of house and thor is scum

Trying to give your buddy a chance?

[copper223]

Oh shut up copper. Get your context straight. I asked for time while referencing HOUSE. Then, the Zyf thing started happening, and I specifically pointed out something Zyf had said and labelled it as something I find to be moderately scummy.

Dude. My iso is like 3 posts. How can you get that wrong?

Good that's what I was hoping for as you otherwise plodder along and fence-sit like no other (which makes you scumread me).

I think it's house.

[copper223]

That's fair, one of the two.

[copper223]

VOTE: Zyf

Zyf > House > Thor right now.

We got pushed off of mizzy yesterday by someone.

This put the focus back on Zyf, not his buddy Nahdia.

[copper223]

@House
I'm fine with a Thor lynch tomorrow, if you are next in case of a town flip.

[copper223]

Gotta say Thor's impressive as scum if this is his game.

[copper223]

Ok guys, I'm buying it.

But from game-play alone I didn't see it, gotta ask Titus what her tell was.

[copper223]

As someone that made a similar mistske to house, I inadvertefly told another player active in a game where I'd been nkd, while interacting with a third that my read record was far better then theirs so they should start listening, which the mods found to be game compromising as the player himself asked if I was referring to that game as well, it sucks when it happens but you really have to be careful.

I liked Murdercat's game a lot!